Short Fist Boxing

[Golden Arms]

Here are a couple videos of Short Fist Boxing, I know that few have seen what it looks like. I don't think I can embed vimeo videos so I just put them in here as links.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/45584953
http://player.vimeo.com/video/45585940

Short Fist is a system built to teach Pak Mei fighting concepts and shapes quickly. A student that gets good at it would then have many of the tools needed to hit the ground running with Pak Mei.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here are a couple videos of Short Fist Boxing, I know that few have seen what it looks like. I don't think I can embed vimeo videos so I just put them in here as links.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/45584953
http://player.vimeo.com/video/45585940

Short Fist is a system built to teach Pak Mei fighting concepts and shapes quickly. A student that gets good at it would then have many of the tools needed to hit the ground running with Pak Mei.

For a short fist system, he seems to be working a bit "long", is there a reason for that?

[Dale Dugas]

The guy in white on the left was extending his stance without bringing it up.

Hence he looks like he is fencing rather than bringing the structure foward and through the other person.

[Golden Arms]

For a short fist system, he seems to be working a bit "long", is there a reason for that?

Yes, there is a reason. Short does not refer to how close you stand to the person, but something else. I work closer in Hung Gar than they tend to work for reference.

[Golden Arms]

The guy in white on the left was extending his stance without bringing it up.

Hence he looks like he is fencing rather than bringing the structure foward and through the other person.

No offense, but you are welcome to try standing in front of him and then offering that critique if you can stop him. If that is all you can see happening in the clip then that says a lot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, there is a reason. Short does not refer to how close you stand to the person, but something else. I work closer in Hung Gar than they tend to work for reference.

Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer.
Typically, short fist system work in a close distance than that showed in the clip (inside the elbow typically), my question was if there was a reason they were working outside that range?

[Golden Arms]

Yes, there is a reason. The "Short" in Short Fist does not imply working inside the elbow range. Again, the Hung system I learned prior to starting Pak Mei works in that range a lot so I am familiar both with the range and that many systems like to function there (especially some Thai and Silat systems as well as some SPM to name a few). Short Fist uses a different set of strategies and works great against longer range systems as well as the short bridge systems you allude to.

[bawang]

i dont see how it makes beginners get into short range easier. youre still doing complicated bridging pattycake.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, there is a reason. The "Short" in Short Fist does not imply working inside the elbow range. Again, the Hung system I learned prior to starting Pak Mei works in that range a lot so I am familiar both with the range and that many systems like to function there (especially some Thai and Silat systems as well as some SPM to name a few). Short Fist uses a different set of strategies and works great against longer range systems as well as the short bridge systems you allude to.

Ah I see, so what makes its a "short fist" is the power generation then,yes?

[Frost]

Here are a couple videos of Short Fist Boxing, I know that few have seen what it looks like. I don't think I can embed vimeo videos so I just put them in here as links.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/45584953
http://player.vimeo.com/video/45585940

Short Fist is a system built to teach Pak Mei fighting concepts and shapes quickly. A student that gets good at it would then have many of the tools needed to hit the ground running with Pak Mei.

Doens't Pak Mei teach pak mei fighting concepts better, so why not just teach bak mei, why bother starting out in a range pak mei doesnt normally play in and then not even allow any real contact? :confused:

[Golden Arms]

Frost,

http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=16

If you are still curious, look up where our Pak Mei comes from. We fight and past that I really don't feel like explaining a bunch of stuff that you could read if you are curious or find out by speaking with my Sifu. Our Pak Mei is not Southern Mantis, it is not a slap fest, and it works well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Doens't Pak Mei teach pak mei fighting concepts better, so why not just teach bak mei, why bother starting out in a range pak mei doesnt normally play in and then not even allow any real contact? :confused:

You should know that some systems require a "launch platform" to work at their best.
You can get there without it, but it cuts the process time.

[Frost]

You should know that some systems require a "launch platform" to work at their best.
You can get there without it, but it cuts the process time.

yes i know this, hence pakmei and dragon are sometimes taught together, but pakmei can also be taught and does stand alone as a combat system,

[sanjuro_ronin]

Frost,

http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=16

If you are still curious, look up where our Pak Mei comes from. We fight and past that I really don't feel like explaining a bunch of stuff that you could read if you are curious or find out by speaking with my Sifu. Our Pak Mei is not Southern Mantis, it is not a slap fest, and it works well.

A word on that article since me mentions "not for sport".
I have often read those words with a cringe but over the last few months I have realized that they don't mean what we MAY think they mean.
Most of the old time fighters loved to fight in sport matches, many liked boxing and under the Japanese even took up judo and such, sport MA has always been a part of TCMA.
What I think they meant when saying "not for sport" was that it was to be take in a far more serious way then simply for competition.
A strike trained to hurt for sport becomes one to kill in a fight.
The INTENT was "not for sport" not the technique per say.
It wasn't a slight on sport fighting ( which many of them loved) it was a warning about the seriousness of intent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes i know this, hence pakmei and dragon are sometimes taught together, but pakmei can also be taught and does stand alone as a combat system,

Yep, BUT ( arguably) it fits better as a "finishing" system like most short hand ones do.

[bawang]

Short Fist uses a different set of strategies and works great against longer range systems as well as the short bridge systems you allude to.

chinese short range uses little strategy and footwork. it emphasizes courage and aggression. this is the biggest mistake chinatown warriors make in america.

as long as you keep practicing complicated bridging drills, you will not be able to fight.

[Golden Arms]

Bawang,

Go troll another thread, I am not biting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bawang,

Go troll another thread, I am not biting.

Bawang is trying to make the point that bridging can lead to chasing hands and the more complicated the drill, the more the tendency to do just that.

[SimonM]

A little experiential comment - outside-reaching bridging techniques like the ones from the second video have, for me anyway, generally been low-percentage techniques. Awesome when I pull them off but not the safest things in a fight.

Then again, I've always been a bit of a wrestler and do like to take an inside position for close fighting if I ever can.

[Brule]

I understood his post as a compliment to short hand systems. The complicated flowery techniques are removed and it goes straight to the point. What the saying about to be a good fighter? 1) is having the balls 2) strength(??) 3) is the kung fu. He seems to say that short hand puts courage at the top.

[bawang]

I understood his post as a compliment to short hand systems. The complicated flowery techniques are removed and it goes straight to the point. What the saying about to be a good fighter? 1) is having the balls 2) strength(??) 3) is the kung fu. He seems to say that short hand puts courage at the top.

it was not a compliment to the guys in that video. they are trying to bridge and my opinion is bridging doesnt work, and in actual history southern martial artists didnt bridge in real fights.

the first video has the classic wing chun dilema: everything looks fine and works until you give a hook punch. the second video has magical techniques: one guy freezes and lets other guy give 10 punch combos.

[Golden Arms]

I was posting some demonstrations of the system to give people a feel for it, now look at all the supposition taking place here.

Muay Thai, Silat, San Shou, TKD, Boxing, you name it, all a person has to say is "I would kick that guy in the leg before he hit me", "He can't stop a good double or single leg", etc.

It's pretty easy to take pot shots without having to back up your position.

[bawang]

im not taking potshots, im pointing out an obvious thing. you are trying to make bridging work. and im saying it wont work.



It's pretty easy to take pot shots without having to back up your position.
oral tradition from my area in china says when southern fighters actually fight, they dont bridge.

[Golden Arms]

I think I am done wasting my time.

[bawang]

when you or one of your students experience real pain and humiliation trying to pull off those moves, you will understand what i feel and why i say these things.

[Frost]

I was posting some demonstrations of the system to give people a feel for it, now look at all the supposition taking place here.

Muay Thai, Silat, San Shou, TKD, Boxing, you name it, all a person has to say is "I would kick that guy in the leg before he hit me", "He can't stop a good double or single leg", etc.

It's pretty easy to take pot shots without having to back up your position.

yep but the obvious reply is Thai and san shou can post clips of their guys making what they do work in a full contact environment, so they tend to get a ride when complaint demo's are shown.........and bawang is making some good points, both about the static compliant nature of the demos and southern arts in general, just because you dont like them doesn't mean he is wrong

[Frost]

Yep, BUT ( arguably) it fits better as a "finishing" system like most short hand ones do.

is that because the style lacks something, or because you need fighting experience to make it work and that's easier gained through longer distance fighting that can be gloved up and spar easier typically?
if its the latter then why make up forms and complicated compliment drills, why not drill the techniques from the style under increasing resistance or do another style that allows you to glove up and go for it?

if its the former then learn a different style, dont just simple extrapolate from the existing art because chances are whats missing will still be missing

[YouKnowWho]

Short Fist uses a different set of strategies and works great against longer range systems ...
The "short fist" and the "long fist" are 2 extreams.

The short fist emphasizes on both hands can strike at your opponent with the same reach. In order to do that, your arms and chest have to be in 90 degree angle.

The long fist emphasizes on the maximum reach. In order to do that, your arm and chest have to be in 180 degree angle. This will cause 1 long arm and 1 short arm.

Which approach is better? One's PRO is the other's CON and the other way around. To say that "short fist" is better than "long fist" is like to say "striking" is better than "grappling". Both have it's place in combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think I am done wasting my time.

I think you are being to hard on Bawang, he is stating an opinion and one based on his view of classical TCMA history.
If falls on you to argue your point,that's all.
That is what forums are about.

I agree AND disagree with Bawang.
I do NOT think that bridging is effective in a striking context BUT do believe that it works very well in the transition from striking to clinching or vice-versa ( VS attempted grabs as opposed to strikes for example or using a strike to lead into clinch work as another example).
The issue with bridge work in this day and age of the MA is that it WILL lead to stand-up grappling ( clinch work) which MAY lead to ground work.
As such BOTH must be addressed by short hand systems that like to bridge ( Like Wing Chun).

Personally I don't use bridging unless I want to clinch.

[sanjuro_ronin]

is that because the style lacks something, or because you need fighting experience to make it work and that's easier gained through longer distance fighting that can be gloved up and spar easier typically?
if its the latter then why make up forms and complicated compliment drills, why not drill the techniques from the style under increasing resistance or do another style that allows you to glove up and go for it?

if its the former then learn a different style, dont just simple extrapolate from the existing art because chances are whats missing will still be missing

In my personal opinion it is because "short hand" systems work against our natural "inclinations" ( we move in instead of out, get in close instead of creating distance, rely on short power - impluse0 over momentum based strikes, etc).
The advantage is that you bring something different to the table, the disadvantage is that it takes longer to make work without a prior martial art.

I would also like to add that, IMO, fighting and cross testing is even MORE crucial the more a system is "unique".

[Frost]

In my personal opinion it is because "short hand" systems work against our natural "inclinations" ( we move in instead of out, get in close instead of creating distance, rely on short power - impluse0 over momentum based strikes, etc).
The advantage is that you bring something different to the table, the disadvantage is that it takes longer to make work without a prior martial art.

I would also like to add that, IMO, fighting and cross testing is even MORE crucial the more a system is "unique".

But what does that prior martial art give you, if they are so different, simply time under pressure and an ability to be calm in combat because you are experienced at giving and receiving shots in a style that is more natural to the body and our instincts ?
if this is correct, and I think you are ….. why develop a long arm version which from what we have seen doesn’t have hard contact and still has the same traits as bakmei, ie you generate power the same, you move inwards not create distance…are you simply training the same non natural attributes at a slightly longer range, how is that helping?

[sanjuro_ronin]

But what does that prior martial art give you, if they are so different, simply time under pressure and an ability to be calm in combat because you are experienced at giving and receiving shots in a style that is more natural to the body and our instincts ?
if this is correct, and I think you are ….. why develop a long arm version which from what we have seen doesn’t have hard contact and still has the same traits as bakmei, ie you generate power the same, you move inwards not create distance…are you simply training the same non natural attributes at a slightly longer range, how is that helping?

Prior MA gives you a "launch platform" of sorts, think doing Olympic lifts or power lifts and how they translate to stronger isolation moves as opposed to only doing isolation moves.
You can get a strong bicep curl by doing bicep curls ( isolation) but you get there stronger by doing pulling compounds and then doing isolation work.
Easier to go from big to small than to start small.

Remember basic MA 101?
First time you are taught to defend VS a punch or kick it is to "step back" and counter, why? more natural and easier.
2nd stage is the "bridge" - defend and counter as ONE.
Final stage is "no bridge" - attack IS defense.

[Frost]

Prior MA gives you a "launch platform" of sorts, think doing Olympic lifts or power lifts and how they translate to stronger isolation moves as opposed to only doing isolation moves.
You can get a strong bicep curl by doing bicep curls ( isolation) but you get there stronger by doing pulling compounds and then doing isolation work.
Easier to go from big to small than to start small.

Remember basic MA 101?
First time you are taught to defend VS a punch or kick it is to "step back" and counter, why? more natural and easier.
2nd stage is the "bridge" - defend and counter as ONE.
Final stage is "no bridge" - attack IS defense.

But that is not the same as developing a system to teach a specific art is it? Prior experience will of course help, it does with anything
if I go to bakmei from a decade in CLF and thai boxing, will I pick it up easier than someone just entering MMA? of course simply because of all you write about
If I go straight to a bakmei class and they say no I can’t learn the art because I need to take a course in long arm first, will I really be better than the guy who went to another sifu and just simply took bakmei for the year I did long arm?

[sanjuro_ronin]

But that is not the same as developing a system to teach a specific art is it? Prior experience will of course help, it does with anything
if I go to bakmei from a decade in CLF and thai boxing, will I pick it up easier than someone just entering MMA? of course simply because of all you write about
If I go straight to a bakmei class and they say no I can’t learn the art because I need to take a course in long arm first, will I really be better than the guy who went to another sifu and just simply took bakmei for the year I did long arm?

Every case is unique and NO, I don't think that a highly specialized MA like Bakmei NEEDS you to know a prior MA.
No MA every needs prior MA experience, but I have found that the more specialized the system the BETTER it is to have prior MA experience.

[jmd161]

is that because the style lacks something, or because you need fighting experience to make it work and that's easier gained through longer distance fighting that can be gloved up and spar easier typically?
if its the latter then why make up forms and complicated compliment drills, why not drill the techniques from the style under increasing resistance or do another style that allows you to glove up and go for it?

if its the former then learn a different style, dont just simple extrapolate from the existing art because chances are whats missing will still be missing

This is just my opinion but, I think most people misunderstand the whole forms and drills thing... I think people give too much credit to forms and drills at times and not enough at other times! I don't think forms were ever meant to create a fighter like movies portray. Forms and drills were meant to be used to help a person understand speed, timing, distance etc... when there was no teacher around. They were a way to catalog movements, techniques etc..

In keeping with tradition a lot of that stuff was deemed secret and blah blah blah! The meaning was lost and people have used forms as a crutch since! I have never heard my sifu say you'll be a fighter from training forms or the drills we have... he has always stated that you have to touch hands (fight) to be a fighter! You need to be hit so you can suffer the pain of being hit... if you can't suffer the pain then you're fooling yourself!

[Faruq]

Here are a couple videos of Short Fist Boxing, I know that few have seen what it looks like. I don't think I can embed vimeo videos so I just put them in here as links.Short Fist is a system built to teach Pak Mei fighting concepts and shapes quickly. A student that gets good at it would then have many of the tools needed to hit the ground running with Pak Mei.

Reminds me a lot of Pangamut or Panantukan. Nice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is just my opinion but, I think most people misunderstand the whole forms and drills thing... I think people give too much credit to forms and drills at times and not enough at other times! I don't think forms were ever meant to create a fighter like movies portray. Forms and drills were meant to be used to help a person understand speed, timing, distance etc... when there was no teacher around. They were a way to catalog movements, techniques etc..

In keeping with tradition a lot of that stuff was deemed secret and blah blah blah! The meaning was lost and people have used forms as a crutch since! I have never heard my sifu say you'll be a fighter from training forms or the drills we have... he has always stated that you have to touch hands (fight) to be a fighter! You need to be hit so you can suffer the pain of being hit... if you can't suffer the pain then you're fooling yourself!

You wanna unlock the secrets of any MA? than you do what the developers of that MA did when they created it, you fight and you fight other systems, just like they did.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A nice clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG60sngHzDA&feature=g-vrec

[sanjuro_ronin]

And here is some sparring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlkpAOzyMo

[YouKnowWho]

Personally I don't use bridging unless I want to clinch.

This is why both striking and grappling should be included in all discussion. Unfortunately, most of the threads in this forum seems to only address the "striking" aspect and only within the boundary of the WC system. It just makes no sense for people who talks about "bridging" only care about "striking", talks about "arm bridging" and not talks about "leg bridging".

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is why both striking and grappling should be included in all discussion. Unfortunately, most of the threads in this forum seems to only address the "striking" aspect and only within the boundary of the WC system. It just makes no sense for people who talks about "bridging" only care about "striking", talks about "arm bridging" and not talks about "leg bridging".

I agree because in practical terms it is impossible to talk about "bridging" without talking about stand up grappling ( Clinch work).

I remember Knifefighter and I discussing trapping and bridging and he said that he viewed them as useless, simply because trapping a strike or bridiging it doesn't make sense of a striker unless they WANT to initiate the clinch.
I put forth my view that trapping ( in particular) and Bridging (in general) tend to be oriented towards grabs and such which, in that case, he saw their potential value.

[Golden Arms]

YouKnowWho,

We do both, and function in both striking and clinching range.

As far as that sparring video, if that is Bak Mei/Pak Mei then I should quit martial arts and take up knitting.

I don't see much use in trying to explain ourselves on a forum regarding the posts above, anyone that has read the forum in the last 2 years knows how Bawang posts, half of the stuff he puts up is borderline gay porn or baited insults to people and I am not sure why he is allowed to stay on this forum in the first place. If you want to know what we do you can find out easily enough, our doors are open and I have met several people from forums in the past in person so long as they acted decently.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As far as that sparring video, if that is Bak Mei/Pak Mei then I should quit martial arts and take up knitting.



Well...we've all seen this type of sparring and not just in Bakmei of course.
And no, that is NOT an example of what Bak mei looks like.
I posted that clip to contrast the clip of the bak mei form.
Why?
Because that is what happens when practioners do two things they are NOT suppose to do:
1) Chase the bridge
and more importantly
2) ****genize their art - ie: Inbreed it, ie: spend more time "fighting Bak mei" and not enough time fighting WITH Bak mei.
And this is NOT just some Bak mei schools, this goes for many short hand schools.

Here is the rub, regardless of whatever legend you prefer to follow in regards to the origins of your particular system, what they all have in common is this:
A fighter that develops a system based on the best qualities of the systems he has picked up and develops a style to, wait for it, fight OTHER SYSTEMS.
The what do we do?
Spend all our time fighting each other !!

[Golden Arms]

...Here is the rub, regardless of whatever legend you prefer to follow in regards to the origins of your particular system, what they all have in common is this:
A fighter that develops a system based on the best qualities of the systems he has picked up and develops a style to, wait for it, fight OTHER SYSTEMS...

I couldn't agree more.

[Golden Arms]

"Gentlemen,
Those two clips are of my son and were just moments in time . One when he was 17, and one when he was 19 taken at a retreat. The first one is simply a hammer fist to the temple or eyebrow to set up the combination and then Max expresses himself. The second is just to illustrate the flow and the clue to how he got there is in the first clip. It also has a foot sweep as there are many high steppers in pakmei. He's also wrestling at the University of Western Ontario four nights a week. If you compare the two he can switch up at will and likes to pick people up and throw them. He's 6'3" and very strong. The actual pakmei technique is sliding up to the side and either hitting the ribs, neck, or the side of the head with the forearm. It is a follow up technique. It requires a lot of skill and involves waist movement with a push. So many demoing pakmei commit suicide or are way too close...

Beginners have to deal with many punches to the face. We used to describe it as surviving a hockey fight in the old days as that was the only live example of a scrap with few rules. The history of pakmei with us is simple
as Lee was already a teacher of other arts. He was not ready to teach as he had not finished the system. Those are old values that have a lot of merit. I learned a lot of things prior to pakmei and kept the short fist. When I started to teach that's what I taught along with other things. Later I went on to learn pakmei. Point is it worked for me and it was never meant to replace pakmei or to suggest it's better..

Jason found us and worked with my guys. He has fought all over North America, China and even Thailand. He seems very impressed with my guys and has always sought out other arts all over. He has taken to what we do and if you know us we work in all ranges of combat using bare knuckle to mma gloves to actual boxing gloves. We are not after anyone's rice bowl as I don't believe in teaching the arts for a living and never have not that theres anything wrong with that, it's just not my experience. If I find another student out there that holds the same values as Jason and is the real deal then I am successful.

Bridging is just a tool in a toolbox to get a novice to move his body safely. You are right in that a real fight you just hit them. Then again many get knocked out if they are not prepared properly. My students are not
going to spar to entertain you however they would be more than happy to receive you. I bet if you look you may even find them on you tube. They are all professionals with good careers or still in University.

Later in August we will do an interview and I will be more clear. If one of you would like to attend the retreat in August it's free. We will try to answer your questions. There is even a free ride up from the airport in
Toronto when we pick up our other guests. You are free to bring anything to the table. That is the only way to answer some of the broad generalizations. Also bring your own video camera. If you are close by just show up to London, ON. I will ask Jason to post this.

Regards
Mike Doucet"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Master Doucet, always the gentleman.

When in August dude?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally I am NOT available from Aug 18th to the 25th and also not again on Aug, 31.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

the second video has magical techniques: one guy freezes and lets other guy give 10 punch combos.

Time stop attack.

[Faruq]

Leave Bawang alone. Hopefully this time he'll finally defend the honor of the Superior Northern Chinese and their arts by accepting this invitation and crushing these Southern fist guys on video and posting it. All hail Bawang!!!

[Golden Arms]

Time stop attack.
Maybe you can post a clip of your own demo with a fully resisting opponent to show us how it is done?

As stated earlier, the clip was a demonstration to show some of our movement, I believe at the time it filmed it was meant to be contrasted with GM Doo Doo, something we still welcome people to do.

[bawang]

GM Doo Doo

wat

mnhnbmm

[Faruq]

Maybe you can post a clip of your own demo with a fully resisting opponent to show us how it is done?

As stated earlier, the clip was a demonstration to show some of our movement, I believe at the time it filmed it was meant to be contrasted with GM Doo Doo, something we still welcome people to do.

It looked like Ashida was telling Bawang it was time to stop his attack now that Doucet Sifu was offering him a free trip to try his guys out, lol. I don't think he was dissing Doucet Sifu.

[bawang]

It looked like Ashida was telling Bawang it was time to stop his attack now that Doucet Sifu was offering him a free trip to try his guys out, lol. I don't think he was dissing Doucet Sifu.

no he was agreeing with me.


im not travelling to challenge anybody. the reason im critisizing him is i got my ass beat trying to use "classical techniques", and i want to save them from many ass pains.

and one time i actually accepted a challenge arguing with those chicago shaolin guys. when i went there the guy was missing and his classmates were doing forms in chinatown square. i talk to them and they looked at me like i was a psycho. then i spent the rest of the day at the museum to see the robot dinosaur.

[Faruq]

Well everyone knows today's Shaolin is wushu, lol. I think they've paid all the Chinatown masters to say they're real now though, lol. You're brave Bawang to have gone. But smart enough not to visit Doucet Sifu's school. "they all fight like hunched over old men", lol....

[bawang]

you dont understand where im coming from , faruq. you dont know whats it feels to get beat up by bjj and muay thai guys trying to pull off chop socky moves and they smirk and laugh in your face.

[Faruq]

$&@#!!! That's some real talk, Bawang. You never expressed it like that before; its usually "Canton sucks, the North rules!!!" Now I understand where you're coming from. They can pull that kind of stuff at many schools, but I doubt they could pull that on a Lee Chun Pai Sifu, a Mike Doucet Sifu, a Garry Hearfield Sifu. Lee Chun Pai Sifu trained his students to compete in the tournament that would later be referred to as the "Taiwan Blood Bath". People died of broken necks and ruptured spleens in that thing, but all of Lee Chun Pai's guys won. And all the criticism stops when Kwong Man Fong Sifu's people post here too. I think these guys train different from the McDojos and are not bothered by the BJJ guys for that reason.

[Golden Arms]

Master Doucet, always the gentleman.

When in August dude?

Sanjuro Ronin: Check your pm's for details.

[tiny]

Your concern is misplaced. We also don't know what that feels like.


you dont understand where im coming from , faruq. you dont know whats it feels to get beat up by bjj and muay thai guys trying to pull off chop socky moves and they smirk and laugh in your face.