Two Handed Jian

[mooyingmantis]

So what do you guys think of this article?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1051

Two handed jian is a commonly practiced weapon in Mainland mantis styles. Yet in the article Yu seems to take credit for single-handedly resurrecting the weapon from ancient times. How do his claims fit in with what you may know about the history of the mantis two handed sword forms?

I know that two handed jian is taught by the following mantis instructors on the mainland:


Zhou Zhendong - TJTLQ ---> Li Feilin + Sun De
Sun Delong - TJMHTLQ
Yu Tianlu - QXTLQ
Zhang Bingdou - TJMHTLQ
Zhang Daojing - LHTLQ
Zhang Zhenyuan - TJMHTLQ

[Featherstone]

I've been meaning to read that article but havent gotten around to it as of yet. I know in Wah Lum we have several 2 hand sets however I cannot recall the names of them. I've only just started learning one of them.

[MightyB]

It'd be interesting to do more research. One thing that's in the article is that he spent most of his MA career in Shandong and Quingdao. Also the dates - 1975 and 1979 (his early two handed jian development). That would certainly put the sword set in the right place and right time frame for it to be adopted into mainland mantis.

Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kY32TuJEY) of him in action.

[mooyingmantis]

Kurt,
Yeah I had seen a couple videos of him on YouTube.

I thought the article was well written. I just wondered since I read that he was in Shandong province, the home of mantis. Did he influence them, or visa-versa.

[MightyB]

Kurt,
Yeah I had seen a couple videos of him on YouTube.

Ithought the article was well written. I just wondered since I read that he was in Shandong province, the home of mantis. Did he influence them, or visa-versa.

I'm wondering the same thing. You'd have to know someone that was practicing in the mainland before 1975. I'm sure someone here would know someone to ask.

[GeneChing]

I'm a little skeptical of that myself. Given the vast diversity of CMA, it seems like the tradition of shuangshoujian (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-39sp.html) would be preserved elsewhere. But given Yu's notoriety, and his attitude towards the topic, we would be remiss if we didn't report his claim as he stated it.

[B.Tunks]

His impact was massive and the vast majority of today's shuangshou jian is directly influenced by him. Most of the double-handed Tanglang jian you see today was originally single handed with only a few double handed or supported hand strikes. Yu built his style off existing sword styles but many were subsequently modified to reflect his innovations. I'm not saying all, but certainly many...

[mooyingmantis]

I'm a little skeptical of that myself. Given the vast diversity of CMA, it seems like the tradition of shuangshoujian (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-39sp.html) would be preserved elsewhere. But given Yu's notoriety, and his attitude towards the topic, we would be remiss if we didn't report his claim as he stated it.

Gene,
I enjoyed the article and it sounds like he was very influential. I just wondered if he was exaggerating a bit :)


His impact was massive and the vast majority of today's shuangshou jian is directly influenced by him. Most of the double-handed Tanglang jian you see today was originally single handed with only a few double handed or supported hand strikes. Yu built his style off existing sword styles but many were subsequently modified to reflect his innovations. I'm not saying all, but certainly many...

Brendan,
Thank you for your input! I was hoping you would chime in here. :)

[xiao yao]

My teacher was practicing the shuang shou jian before 1975. His teacher learnt it from Hao Heng Lu.

Ive never heard of the master in that article before, but Hao family has been famous for their sword and I think most Hao descendants can trace their sword back earlier than 75

[xiao yao]

Richard, on your list of masters teaching jian, both Sun De and Li Fei Lin learnt from Zhou shifu

[mooyingmantis]

Richard, on your list of masters teaching jian, both Sun De and Li Fei Lin learnt from Zhou shifu

Will,
Thanks for the info! :) Glad you saw this.

I changed my original post to give credit to Master Zhou's influence.

So, Hao Jia Tanglangquan could have influenced the following modern instructors:

Hao Henglu --> Zhang Kai Tang --> Zhou Zhendong --> Sun De + Li Feilin
Hao Henglu --> Hao Bin --> Sun Deyao + Sun Delong

[xiao yao]

theres a video on youtube somewhere of zhou shifu doing a sword form, there were 3 forms in hao family (2 double handed, 1 single handed) which he condensed into one form

i cant get on youtube now, so youl have to just search it

[bawang]

modern shuangshoujian recreations are inspired by yu.


two handed dao is effective in combat but two handed jian is not , it was a ceremonial weapon

[Hebrew Hammer]

modern shuangshoujian recreations are inspired by yu.


two handed dao is effective in combat but two handed jian is not , it was a ceremonial weapon

Based on what? or How do you know this? Just logically speaking, two handed swords were not cheap to make back in the day, I find it hard to believe many would have them made just for ceremony (circumcision?). The two handed Dao was probably more effective but I would have to imagine others tried fighting with a two handed Jian.

Weapons like it were certainly functional in Feudal Japan and Europe. Why would it not be effective in combat? It just doesn't make sense to me, unless they couldn't produce a jian blade that would not break under the stresses of combat.

Besides chicks dig the length.

I also enjoyed this article, in fact thought the whole issue was solid. Nice work Gene.

[bawang]

Based on what? or How do you know this? Just logically speaking, two handed swords were not cheap to make back in the day, I find it hard to believe many would have them made just for ceremony (circumcision?). The two handed Dao was probably more effective but I would have to imagine others tried fighting with a two handed Jian.


for jian you cant grab the back of the blade. this becomes a problem when the sword gets longer.



Weapons like it were certainly functional in Feudal Japan and Europe. Why would it not be effective in combat?

the ming dynasty army recovered two handed dao from the japanese and jian from koreans, but the jian was too difficult to use and abandoned.

[mooyingmantis]

for jian you cant grab the back of the blade. this becomes a problem when the sword gets longer.

Bawang,
I respect your opinion, but I believe that your premise is wrong on this one.

I have trained for decades with the Japanese daito and shoto, as well as, Chinese blades. Though there are a few techniques in which the mune (back of the katana blade) is grabbed, it is rare. And little would be lost if the techniques were gone all together.

Japanese sword fighting, like Chinese sword fighting, is not like in the movies. One does not clash swords with the enemy. One either cuts at the enemy, or dodges and attempts to cut the enemy's wrist of body when the enemy attacks. This is no different than the use of liao, gua, or dian with the Chinese jian. The fact that it is a longer weapon changes little.

[bawang]

hi mooying, i am also speaking on realistic terms. you are using experience from kendo or kenjutsu. im talking about chinese battlefield tactics. you are talking about one on one dueling, im talking about breaking and entering the spear wall.

if you have broken through the spear wall, you have to switch to yingshou staff grip with the dao or you will die. you have students, you can easily try this, make them form a spear wall 3 men deep and try to attack them.


if you have a real spear with solid hardwood, you can get your students to do taishan crushes egg on you, and try to block it. if he does it near full force he will crush through your blocks unless you hold the blade.

[mooyingmantis]

hi mooying, i am also speaking on realistic terms. you are using experience from kendo or kenjutsu. im talking about chinese battlefield tactics. you are talking about one on one dueling, im talking about breaking and entering the spear wall.

if you have broken through the spear wall, you have to switch to yingshou staff grip with the dao or you will die. you have students, you can easily try this, make them form a spear wall 3 men deep and try to attack them.


if you have a real spear with solid hardwood, you can get your students to do taishan crushes egg on you, and try to block it. if he does it near full force he will crush through your blocks unless you hold the blade.

Bawang,
You make excellent points!

Except for one. :)

Anyone who would wade through a line of spearmen with any type of sword, using any type of grip is probably going to die.

My archers and spearmen should take out the majority of the spearmen, BEFORE swordsmen make contact. And long swords in Japan and China were not the weapon of infantry. They were designed for mounted soldiers. Hence, the need for the added length. Thus showing that the techniques demonstrated in forms today are far removed from the long swords intended purpose. On that we can agree. :)

Also, are you aware that in Japan very few soldiers were killed on the battlefied with swords? The Japanese were very anal and kept statistics on battlefield deaths during a number of wars. Can you guess the weapon that killed more soldiers in all the wars combined? ROCKS! More soldiers were killed by flung or thrown rocks, than other other battlefield weapon.

[Hebrew Hammer]

for jian you cant grab the back of the blade. this becomes a problem when the sword gets longer.


Huh? Why aren't you grabbing the sword by the hilt? The handle?


Bawang,
You make excellent points!

Except for one. :)

Anyone who would wade through a line of spearmen with any type of sword, using any type of grip is probably going to die.

My archers and spearmen should take out the majority of the spearmen, BEFORE swordsmen make contact. And long swords in Japan and China were not the weapon of infantry. They were designed for mounted soldiers. Hence, the need for the added length. Thus showing that the techniques demonstrated in forms today are far removed from the long swords intended purpose. On that we can agree. :)

Also, are you aware that in Japan very few soldiers were killed on the battlefied with swords? The Japanese were very anal and kept statistics on battlefield deaths during a number of wars. Can you guess the weapon that killed more soldiers in all the wars combined? ROCKS! More soldiers were killed by flung or thrown rocks, than other other battlefield weapon.

I completely agree with your assessment Mooyingmantis, I am curious how you know the Japanese were anal, but that's for another time. I would be very surprised if spears weren't the number one killer on the battle field or arrows...rocks??? Hmmm maybe in a siege situation. I just haven't seen a whole lot of evidence of deadly Japanese rock throwers...they are sneaky *******s.

Got any links or pics?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grabbing the blade of a long sword (straight more than curved) is a comman tactic/grip used also in the west.
Remember they had gloves when they went into battle, typically "leather" gloves.
It supported on parries and allowed a longer blade to be used in a shorter distance/range/inclose fighting.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I see said the blind man...thanks for the clarification.

[SimonM]

Grabbing the blade of a long sword (straight more than curved) is a comman tactic/grip used also in the west.
Remember they had gloves when they went into battle, typically "leather" gloves.
It supported on parries and allowed a longer blade to be used in a shorter distance/range/inclose fighting.

Also the blade wasn't generally sharpened all the way to the forte.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Also the blade wasn't generally sharpened all the way to the forte.

Correct, depending on the shape, length and use, just the last 6" to 12"

[SimonM]

Japanese sword fighting, like Chinese sword fighting, is not like in the movies. One does not clash swords with the enemy. One either cuts at the enemy, or dodges and attempts to cut the enemy's wrist of body when the enemy attacks. This is no different than the use of liao, gua, or dian with the Chinese jian. The fact that it is a longer weapon changes little.


Welcome to me 10 years ago.

Then I learned some stuff. ;)

Here's the situation with swords and hands on the blade: if you have a two-edged blade I guarantee you it's not fully sharpened all the way up the forte. This was precisely so that you COULD get a second hand on it if you had to; historically. That being said, there is sword fighting and then there is sword fighting and then there is sword fighting.

What you probably have the most experience with is effectively some form of dueling. Dueling assumed single combat, generally involved no armour and, unless you go back about 800 years, it probably didn't even involve a shield in the off-hand.

It takes very little effort to shove five pounds of metal into the belly of an un-armoured opponent and so duelists rarely required the leverage that putting a hand on the blade usually involved.

Over time dueling weapons, both in Europe and in China became more narrow and lighter as thrusting was emphasized. Many Qing dynasty jian show this adaptation; Europe has several different examples.

There are also cavalry, as was previously addressed. I don't have anything new to add here right now but to say that this was probably the largest body of swordsmanship up until the advent of the firearm.

And, in Europe at least, there were a few flavours of infantry swordsman. Generally units of sword-and-shield fighters or heavy-sword wielders (with zweihanders and the like) were deployed to counter pike units and / or as skirmishers (particularly sword-and-shiend fighters with the latter). Their swords tended to be heavy and they frequently wore at least a little armour. These soldiers also frequently faced armoured opponents. Putting 5-15 lbs of metal through a chain mesh suit is much harder than putting it through a guys gut. They frequently had to use swords a lot like spears - and that meant two hands with a wider grip than you'd be able to manage on the hilt alone. And so they would grasp the blade.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typical swords were NOT 5 lbs dude.

[SimonM]

My arming sword is. I weighed it. :p
And I know it's a bit on the heavy side.

And looking at the specs I ****ed up weighing it. LOL!

It's a 2.5 lb blade... don't know how I managed to double that.

Bad Simon.

[SimonM]

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=500996&name=Naumburg+Sword

So yeah, I was dumb.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=500996&name=Naumburg+Sword

So yeah, I was dumb.

More common than you think, I work with metals so I know the "lbs per ft" thing really well, so...

[SimonM]

More common than you think, I work with metals so I know the "lbs per ft" thing really well, so...

I know; but I SHOULD know better considering how much time I spend with swords. :o

I'm going to blame lack of sleep... or something. ;)

[mooyingmantis]

I completely agree with your assessment Mooyingmantis, I am curious how you know the Japanese were anal, but that's for another time. I would be very surprised if spears weren't the number one killer on the battle field or arrows...rocks??? Hmmm maybe in a siege situation. I just haven't seen a whole lot of evidence of deadly Japanese rock throwers...they are sneaky *******s.

Got any links or pics?


My data came from Karl Friday, professor of Japanese history at the University of Georgia. Prof. Friday also earned a menkyo kaiden ranking in Kashima Shin-ryu, an extant koryu. He posted the information back in the 90's on one of the "mailing lists" (precursor to the bulletin board) of the University of Guelph. The list was overseen by Kim Taylor of the Hyoho Nitenichi-ryu.


What you probably have the most experience with is effectively some form of dueling. Dueling assumed single combat, generally involved no armour and, unless you go back about 800 years, it probably didn't even involve a shield in the off-hand.

It takes very little effort to shove five pounds of metal into the belly of an un-armoured opponent and so duelists rarely required the leverage that putting a hand on the blade usually involved.

Simon,
I have studied battlefield tactics of the Japanese and the use of each weapon in its particular placement.

Battlefields in ancient China and Japanese were very different than we see in the movies. Warlord A ****ed off Warlord B. So, Warlord B and sent his poor, mostly peasant, conscripted subjects to kill Warlord A's poor, mostly peasant, conscripted subjects.

Why do you think spears were the most commonly used weapons? Because they were CHEAP. Any type of armor was rare in these battles. If you had armor you probably stole it from someone of higher rank you found dead on the battlefield. Don't be fooled by terracotta statues.

[SimonM]

My data came from Karl Friday, professor of Japanese history at the University of Georgia. Prof. Friday also earned a menkyo kaiden ranking in Kashima Shin-ryu, an extant koryu. He posted the information back in the 90's on one of the "mailing lists" (precursor to the bulletin board) of the University of Guelph. The list was overseen by Kim Taylor of the Hyoho Nitenichi-ryu.



Simon,
I have studied battlefield tactics of the Japanese and the use of each weapon in its particular placement.

Battlefields in ancient China and Japanese were very different than we see in the movies. Warlord A ****ed off Warlord B. So, Warlord B and sent his poor, mostly peasant, conscripted subjects to kill Warlord A's poor, mostly peasant, conscripted subjects.

Why do you think spears were the most commonly used weapons? Because they were CHEAP. Any type of armor was rare in these battles. If you had armor you probably stole it from someone of higher rank you found dead on the battlefield. Don't be fooled by terracotta statues.

Yeah, but with the exception of the cavalrymen (previously addressed) any guy with a sword in his hands probably wasn't a poor-ass peasant conscript because swords were NOT cheap weapons.

In Europe they tended to be mercenaries or the extended relatives of minor lordling types - guys who might not be able to afford a horse but who could often afford a padded leather jerkin or even some strategically placed mail.

[bawang]

Bawang,
You make excellent points!

Except for one. :)

Anyone who would wade through a line of spearmen with any type of sword, using any type of grip is probably going to die.


in ancient china, the purpose of two handed weapons was to penetrate the spear wall. its called "attacking long with short".

[mooyingmantis]

Yeah, but with the exception of the cavalrymen (previously addressed) any guy with a sword in his hands probably wasn't a poor-ass peasant conscript because swords were NOT cheap weapons.

Or he looted it from the dead. But generally I agree.


In Europe they tended to be mercenaries or the extended relatives of minor lordling types - guys who might not be able to afford a horse but who could often afford a padded leather jerkin or even some strategically placed mail.

Interesting! I never studied European battles. It is good to hear things from that perspective. :)

[mooyingmantis]

in ancient china, the purpose of two handed weapons was to penetrate the spear wall. its called "attacking long with short".

If that is true, the spears would have to be very short. Was there a typical length for a battlefield spear?

[bawang]

battlefield spears were very long from 7 feet to 15 feet. the longer the spear is, the more vulnerable it is to swords.


. And long swords in Japan and China were not the weapon of infantry. They were designed for mounted soldiers.
the tang emperor had a 1000 man elite sword unit.

They were designed for mounted soldiers. Hence, the need for the added length.
im not talking about the cavalry saber, im talking about shuangshou dao, aka the nodachi


japanese pirates with nodachi would charge towards you and kill many people with the first strike, then they would switch to staff grip and back off , regroup, then they would charge over and over again like this.




in europe theres a term called push of pike. when you clash with an enemy, your sword would be pressed against your body. however the dao can wrap around your body.

[mooyingmantis]

Bawang,
Very interesting! Thanks for the info!

[SimonM]

If that is true, the spears would have to be very short. Was there a typical length for a battlefield spear?

Actually, greatswords were primarily employed against long Pike's. The real big ones were great for massing up to deflect a cavalry charge but weren't very agile. They frequently made pikes with a long head to avoid getting the shafts hacked to pieces by skirmishers so the sword units began making those big *******s. Zweihanders and other greatswords had the range to get at the wood bits of pikes but, being swords, were still faster and more agile than long pikes. Short spears would probably have fared better against large infantry swords but I am not aware of such a match-up happening.

[SimonM]

battlefield spears were very long from 7 feet to 15 feet. the longer the spear is, the more vulnerable it is to swords.

Quoting for epic level correctness.

[Gowgee]

While jian or dao are fine for long to mid range, I think the gist of the comment on using the back or side of the blade is for close range. You want to close range with a spear, and this means closing unengaged with the weapons you're facing, bridging with it in one hand, or using leverage with two hands. Same pretty much goes in application with other weapons too.

mooyingmantis,

I think even Karl Friday's school trains for "tsuba zeriai", where you have your swordguard locked against your opponent's. That's another common scenario where you'd want to use both hands (and the rest of your body).