There are two kinds of teachers

[RWilson]

I have come across two different kinds of teachers.

One teaches how to do skills. He teaches you how to throw and lets you throw him. He teaches you how to hit and then sends you to the bag. When teaching throws he teaches you how to create momentum and shows how momentary body mechanics help. This teacher emphasizes conditioning and makes it part of his class. This is how student learn how to do it on their own. This teacher is good.

Here is the other kind of teacher I have come across. This teacher sucks. He talks about what magic acu points to press on before throwing the guy, he has you strike him slow and then super speed counters, you have to fall for him because he is too old to throw you but still believes he can, he extracts techniques from forms and demos on arm hangers. He talks about static positions when "trapping" in striking and says, "if he moves here I move here. It is so easy". He does not freestyle with you. This teacher may or may not believe in conditioning but says you should do it on your own but the truth is he stopped years ago. He talks about how this helps a smaller person beat the bigger stronger person.

Have you guys come across these kinds? Which did you prefer?

The biggest reason for the two teachers is that the first teacher still competes. He is with it. The second teacher either never competed/fought or he did so in his youth. He allowed his actual training to stagnate and sat around thinking all day about how to apply instead of actually applying.

[YouKnowWho]

In your example, your 1st kind teacher will become your 2nd kind teacher when he reaches to his 80 years old birthday. I don't care how good shape you may be or how famous master you are, when your are 80 years old, a full powerful punch on your head, or a full powerful throw over the shoulder can help you to go to heaven earlier. :)

[RWilson]

In your example, your 1st kind teacher will become your 2nd kind teacher when he reaches to his 80 years old birthday. I don't care how good shape you may be or how famous master you are, when your are 80 years old, a full powerful punch on your head, or a full powerful throw over the shoulder can help you to go to heaven earlier. :)

The second teacher should not be allowed to teach beginners and intermediate because his teachings are a waste to those without skills. They are a waste regardless. He should only be with super senior students or do special seminars. The second kind of teacher will ruin a class with younger students. Agree, ykw?

I will also add that the teacher does not have to do conditioning with his students. But he should stand there with the stopwatch and be a strong leader for the class. He does not have to get thrown all the time but sometimes yeah or he will not know for sure if you are doing it right.

And you guys know my view on sparring with the old guys. When I said he should move with you freestyle I meant he should try applying the skills with atleast a little resistsnce or else what he is showing you is fantasy.

[YouKnowWho]

The second kind of teacher will ruin a class with younger students. Agree, ykw?

Agree!

In TCMA, there is nothing worse to have an old teacher when you are just a beginner. The old teacher will carry an "old man flavor". If a new student thinks that's the way it suppose to be then that studnet will carry that "old man flavor" for the rest of his life.

I have to admit that when I was young, my students were only my training partners. I had more fun to beat them up than to teach them. When I got older and no longer competed in tournaments, I started my true teaching.

The 1st teacher still competes. Because that, he may hide valuable information from you just in case he has to fight you in the same tournament.

When your 2nd teacher is 80 years old. He can only depend on his Walther PPK in his pocket, he won't mind to show you all his secret.

[RWilson]

Agree!

In TCMA, there is nothing worse to have an old teacher when you are just a beginner. The old teacher will carry an "old man flavor". If a new student thinks that's the way it suppose to be then that studnet will carry that "old man flavor" for the rest of his life.

I have to admit that when I was young, my students were only my training partners. I had more fun to beat them up than to teach them. When I got older and no longer competed in tournaments, I started my true teaching.

The 1st teacher still competes. Because that, he may hide valuable information from you just in case he has to fight you in the same tournament.

When your 2nd teacher is 80 years old. He can only depend on his Walther PPK in his pocket, he won't mind to show you all his secret.

Walther ppk, James Bond's gun, had no stopping power. The bullet will go through you and come out the other side. You will bleed to death eventually but it is the punch of a gun that truly makes you stop. Pick a better gun. 38 revolver.

Minor point not meant to derail the thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO, I agree with the view that the best teacher is one that makes you think, " T got here on my own".
Now, that doesn't mean you think you didn't have or need instruction, no.
It means that he pointed the way, directed you towards the answer BUT YOU found the answer.

[RWilson]

IMO, I agree with the view that the best teacher is one that makes you think, " T got here on my own".
Now, that doesn't mean you think you didn't have or need instruction, no.
It means that he pointed the way, directed you towards the answer BUT YOU found the answer.

True in philosophy, Sanjuro but not practical. Remember when you were studying judo back when you were a young lad. If the teacher did not do the throw on you and explain how to do it you would have taken forever to figure it out or worse come up with The Tao of Jeet Kune Do for Judo.

A good grappling teacher should teach you how to apply momentum, how to step, and which direction to apply it in. He should not be talking about softening up an opponent by pressing on acupoints first and taking 5 min to explain this. All that can come after a student can do the throw. Agree?

[Dale Dugas]

How would you know how to teach anything or be able to demonstrate that you know anything. Did you not say you gave up teaching a while ago?

you are just a net ghost hiding from life.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True in philosophy, Sanjuro but not practical. Remember when you were studying judo back when you were a young lad. If the teacher did not do the throw on you and explain how to do it you would have taken forever to figure it out or worse come up with The Tao of Jeet Kune Do for Judo.

A good grappling teacher should teach you how to apply momentum, how to step, and which direction to apply it in. He should not be talking about softening up an opponent by pressing on acupoints first and taking 5 min to explain this. All that can come after a student can do the throw. Agree?


A teacher must teach of course, there is no way around that, but HOW he teaches is crucial.
Again we are talking personal preferences right?
I've always like the teacher that LEADS the horse to water BUT lets the horse figure out the best way to drink it.
Know what I mean?

I have never met a teacher like you describe in regards to "accupoints" and whatnot.

[Dale Dugas]

the coward is trying to poke fun at people who do Chinese martial arts.

He is only succeeding in telling people he is a closet mouthboxer.

Claims to have stopped teaching but I am sure this person has never taught anyone anything other than how to hide and snipe from the net.

[RWilson]

the coward is trying to poke fun at people who do Chinese martial arts.

He is only succeeding in telling people he is a closet mouthboxer.

Claims to have stopped teaching but I am sure this person has never taught anyone anything other than how to hide and snipe from the net.

No, this is a serious thread. If you have nothing to add then leave my thread. You contribute nothing except to show how Internet talk bothers you. Grow a pair and then come back.

I like to make fun of Kung foo. We all know this. But in this thread I am being honest. I have trained with 3 tcma teachers that fall into category 2. It wold be better to focus on how to take advantage of anatomical weaknesses than acu points in fighting.

Acupuncture points were never a part of tcma. Most famous tcma were illiterate. They fought and mangled anatomy. They did not try to make you have a heart attack by attacking the heart meridian. I used to heard that one a lot. "Be careful attacking the inner arm where the heart meridian in training because a heart attack could result."
Too deadly to get try to hit hard wussy syndrome also causes heart attacks due to lack of exercise/

[Dale Dugas]

What was that netghost?

fly fly fly little starling

fly fly fly

[MightyB]

In your example, your 1st kind teacher will become your 2nd kind teacher when he reaches to his 80 years old birthday. I don't care how good shape you may be or how famous master you are, when your are 80 years old, a full powerful punch on your head, or a full powerful throw over the shoulder can help you to go to heaven earlier. :)

This.
----
but before you go shipping the 2nd off on an iceberg. The best situation is to have both kinds of teachers in your school. The younger up and coming instructor to work out with, and the experienced knowledgeable old guy to point out the finer details.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Acupuncture points were never a part of tcma. Most famous tcma were illiterate. They fought and mangled anatomy. They did not try to make you have a heart attack by attacking the heart meridian. I used to heard that one a lot. "Be careful attacking the inner arm where the heart meridian in training because a heart attack could result."
Too deadly to get try to hit hard wussy syndrome also causes heart attacks due to lack of exercise/

I am not sure what makes you think that attacking vital points were never part of TCMA, they have always been part of EVERY MA in ALL parts of the world.
As for the very "unique" practice of "dim mak" ( which is what you are describing), that has very ancient history, dating back to India.
Of course, what SOME have made of it is a horrific thing, but that can be said about almost everything MA related.

[SimonM]

Which do you prefer?

Cupcakes or a pile of rotting meat?

[mickey]

Greetings,

There is a third type of teacher: you.

If you go from teacher to teacher looking for the juiciest teat to suck, it will never happen for you. You must engage with your lessons, regardless of the type 1 or type 2 teacher. If you don't, you are just wasting your fukkin' time. If you don't have what it takes to develop yourself, go swing on a star. This applies to any endeavor that requires time and effort to achieve a positive result.

mickey

[SimonM]

I am not sure what makes you think that attacking vital points were never part of TCMA, they have always been part of EVERY MA in ALL parts of the world.
As for the very "unique" practice of "dim mak" ( which is what you are describing), that has very ancient history, dating back to India.
Of course, what SOME have made of it is a horrific thing, but that can be said about almost everything MA related.

The problem with vital points striking is one of broken telephone....

"Hit 'em where it hurts" translates after 20 generations to" lightly poke here for instant bloody death."

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/demotivational-posters-ever-hear-the-saying-cant-beat-a-dead-horse.jpg

[RWilson]

I am not sure what makes you think that attacking vital points were never part of TCMA, they have always been part of EVERY MA in ALL parts of the world.
As for the very "unique" practice of "dim mak" ( which is what you are describing), that has very ancient history, dating back to India.
Of course, what SOME have made of it is a horrific thing, but that can be said about almost everything MA related.

Vital points is not the same as hundreds of acupuncture points. You do not have to know acu to know that hitting a guy in the throat will screw him up. Hitting places that are more sensitive than others falls into this too. But spefic acupoints is not for fighting.

Where are these supposed dim mak masters?

[RWilson]

Greetings,

There is a third type of teacher: you.

If you go from teacher to teacher looking for the juiciest teat to suck, it will never happen for you. You must engage with your lessons, regardless of the type 1 or type 2 teacher. If you don't, you are just wasting your fukkin' time. If you don't have what it takes to develop yourself, go swing on a star. This applies to any endeavor that requires time and effort to achieve a positive result.

mickey

I can go to any teacher I want at anytime. It is called freedom. Why would I waste my time(I did) studying with teacher number 2? He is good for teaching senior students and seniors living in old people's homes.

[jdhowland]

I cannot agree with these catagories. The dualism may be useful in making a point, but it does not exist in real life.

Some instructors who compete and train hard cannot teach. Some who only talk may be old and bring valuable experience to the training, although I have never seen the extreme as mentioned here. Young people who only talk theory are usually trying to prove how smart they are and will probably be bad teachers.

Everyone who teaches will have his prejudices and blind spots. If they also have good skills or experience, learn from them.

Do not try to emulate your teachers. Try to rediscover what they found.

I think there are 19,240,560 kinds of teachers.

[MightyB]

Where are these supposed dim mak masters?

They're chillin man.

http://www.the-inncrowd.com/imagespaternalgramma03/Opium%20Smoker.jpg

[SimonM]

It is called freedom.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m72u33UoGV1qevade.jpg

[MightyB]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m72u33UoGV1qevade.jpg

Pu$$y
-----

http://home.comcast.net/~praufs/RobRoy.jpg

[SimonM]

Pu$$y
-----

http://home.comcast.net/~praufs/RobRoy.jpg

Touche. :D

[MightyB]

Touche. :D

Where's your internet Fu!

You need to comeback with something like this! :D

http://www.themantuary.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/mantuary_groundskeeper_willy.jpg

[SimonM]

An honourable man know when to admit defeat. :cool:

[mickey]

Greetings,

I am not challenging anyone's freedom. When it comes to learning, either you have it or you don't. I am talking about the learner's ability and intelligence.

mickey

[mickey]

Greetings,

I am not challenging anyone's freedom. When it comes to learning, either you have it or you don't. I am talking about the learner's ability, intelligence, and initiative.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Vital points is not the same as hundreds of acupuncture points. You do not have to know acu to know that hitting a guy in the throat will screw him up. Hitting places that are more sensitive than others falls into this too. But spefic acupoints is not for fighting.

Where are these supposed dim mak masters?

Actually, there are vital points and then there are incapacitating points so yes, they do have something to do with each other.
You need to realize that not all points are for strikes and not all are for empty hands.

The issue it seems is that you have been exposed to some pretty bad (unqualified) teachers.

[-N-]

I have trained with 3 tcma teachers that fall into category 2.

Where these legit teachers, or wannabee chi fairies?

How did you end up with this type of teacher 3 times?!

[SimonM]

Where these legit teachers, or wannabee chi fairies?

How did you end up with this type of teacher 3 times?!

Because Rwilson is actually 12 and his parents keep signing him up with mcdojos to save money. :cool:

[Robinhood]

To original post........


No teacher can teach bad student.

Student needs to know how to learn, dumb students don't learn.


Sounds like you need to check the mirror instead of pointing the finger.

[SimonM]

Are you still bitter that I don't buy into your fantasy LARP QI nonsense?

:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

http://i.qkme.me/3omnqu.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i.qkme.me/3omnqu.jpg

Happens when you get into a vicious c0ckfight !

[SimonM]

Happens when you get into a vicious c0ckfight !

No, it's what happens when you find yourself taking shots at both Qi enthusiasts and "all TCMA is bad" types simultaneously.

And when you've got very little to do at work on a Friday. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, it's what happens when you find yourself taking shots at both Qi enthusiasts and "all TCMA is bad" types simultaneously.

And when you've got very little to do at work on a Friday. ;)

just making time for the weekend baby !
and then:
BEACH !!
http://www.blirk.net/wallpapers/1280x800/babes-wallpaper-251.jpg

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I have come across two different kinds of teachers.

One teaches how to do skills. He teaches you how to throw and lets you throw him. He teaches you how to hit and then sends you to the bag. When teaching throws he teaches you how to create momentum and shows how momentary body mechanics help. This teacher emphasizes conditioning and makes it part of his class. This is how student learn how to do it on their own. This teacher is good.

Here is the other kind of teacher I have come across. This teacher sucks. He talks about what magic acu points to press on before throwing the guy, he has you strike him slow and then super speed counters, you have to fall for him because he is too old to throw you but still believes he can, he extracts techniques from forms and demos on arm hangers. He talks about static positions when "trapping" in striking and says, "if he moves here I move here. It is so easy". He does not freestyle with you. This teacher may or may not believe in conditioning but says you should do it on your own but the truth is he stopped years ago. He talks about how this helps a smaller person beat the bigger stronger person.

Have you guys come across these kinds? Which did you prefer?

The biggest reason for the two teachers is that the first teacher still competes. He is with it. The second teacher either never competed/fought or he did so in his youth. He allowed his actual training to stagnate and sat around thinking all day about how to apply instead of actually applying.

Agreed.

The first teacher is a good teacher.

The second teacher is "too deadly for the ring." He's probably also fat and out of shape and all his techniques involve your opponenet leaving their arm outstretched after throwing a punch.

[-N-]

just making time for the weekend baby !
and then:
BEACH !!
http://www.blirk.net/wallpapers/1280x800/babes-wallpaper-251.jpg

Her chi is blocked in her left shoulder, right hip, and right side of neck.

I will help her with stiffness.

[Robinhood]

Her chi is blocked in her left shoulder, right hip, and right side of neck.

I will help her with stiffness.

I have something that will clear her blockage.

[Egg fu young]

I have something that will clear her blockage.


Why does she have shoes on? Just saying.

[RWilson]

Because Rwilson is actually 12 and his parents keep signing him up with mcdojos to save money. :cool:

I do not reveal the names of my former teachers out of respect. That is the only respect I owe them. One of them makes thousands of dollars teaching seminars. His students are wealthy larpers who have not done real martial arts before. They are deadly legends in their own minds. I left not because of the teacher. I left because he was teaching tcma and "self defense" talking about the supposed old masters' skills. Meanwhile the class consisted of forms, chi gong, and arm hanging demos. The other reason I left was because his assistant teachers were so arrogant in the way they taught but they were all products of the regular class. Here is an example. The teacher was away one class and this guy had us do a technique. The first part of the technique involved us parrying a slow strike while making sure we were using our structure(I hate that word). He had us do this for a half hour. The next part was to push the guys arm horizontally against him causing him to break his structure. This was another 15-20 minutes.


You guys say that these teachers are in the minority and that I am a troll. But if I revealed his name most of you would know him and probably defend him. You would defed him because he is somewhat famous, his lineage is top notch(some guys do not even have a lineage), he is a nice guy, and because you are all biased. This guy is a great guy to have as a friend. But if I showed you video of his class you would see mostly forms and chi gong with some arm hanging technique drilling. What ****es me off is that he talks about how his tcma class teaches you self defense. Wtf are you smoking? He does not believe in sparring. He does not know how to breakfall or roll but talks about the hidden throws in forms.

The tcma media is biased.

[RWilson]

To original post........


No teacher can teach bad student.

Student needs to know how to learn, dumb students don't learn.


Sounds like you need to check the mirror instead of pointing the finger.

And this folks is the exact attitude of a bad teacher. Bad teachers do not know what they are doing and give vague answers to keep from being found out. Many good students get ruined by bad teschers

[IronFist]

I do not reveal the names of my former teachers out of respect. That is the only respect I owe them. One of them makes thousands of dollars teaching seminars. His students are wealthy larpers who have not done real martial arts before. They are deadly legends in their own minds. I left not because of the teacher. I left because he was teaching tcma and "self defense" talking about the supposed old masters' skills. Meanwhile the class consisted of forms, chi gong, and arm hanging demos. The other reason I left was because his assistant teachers were so arrogant in the way they taught but they were all products of the regular class. Here is an example. The teacher was away one class and this guy had us do a technique. The first part of the technique involved us parrying a slow strike while making sure we were using our structure(I hate that word). He had us do this for a half hour. The next part was to push the guys arm horizontally against him causing him to break his structure. This was another 15-20 minutes.


You guys say that these teachers are in the minority and that I am a troll. But if I revealed his name most of you would know him and probably defend him. You would defed him because he is somewhat famous, his lineage is top notch(some guys do not even have a lineage), he is a nice guy, and because you are all biased. This guy is a great guy to have as a friend. But if I showed you video of his class you would see mostly forms and chi gong with some arm hanging technique drilling. What ****es me off is that he talks about how his tcma class teaches you self defense. Wtf are you smoking? He does not believe in sparring. He does not know how to breakfall or roll but talks about the hidden throws in forms.

The tcma media is biased.

I've had teachers like that, too. I took a demo lesson at a Krav Maga school and never came back for another one. I made a thread about it 6 years ago or whenever it was, too.

First we did punching drills with a partner. I got excited because I thought "awesome, right off the bat we're doing drills against resisting opponents!"

WRONG.

We had to throw these stupid hooking punches and the other guy was to reach out and block them with this "wax on/wax off" type of hook block.

I wasn't reaching out enough, so the teacher came over and corrected my form http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Anyone who has ever fought against a resisting opponent knows that reaching out to block punches is a good way to get punched. Most people do it once or twice before they learn.

He also corrected my fighting stance, encouraging me to extend my arms further away from my face. Now I was coming from an MMA school where we did exclusively crazy monkey boxing, so I was used to having my hands right next to, if not on, my forehead. Anything feels "too far" by comparison. But he had me get my lead hand pretty far away. Not being the kind of person to come in and disrespect another style, I obliged (while hoping my muscle memory would forgive me). He wanted my lead hand a good 20-24" away from my face. What is this, Karate Kid?

The next thing we did was punch while the overweight teacher counted reps.

The next thing we did was a knee attack drill into a pad that our partner held. FOR FORTY FIVE MINUTES.

There was no discussion of how to get into that position.

There was no discussion of what to do if the opponent resists.

It was just put your arm around your partner's neck and knee the pad.

Why does that need to be trained for 45 minutes? Even untrained people can throw a powerful knee strike.

The teacher had a massive "too deadly to train with my students" vibe.

After class, I asked him if they did any grappling in the class. His reply was, and I quote:

"No, we don't grapple. I prefer to rip a guy's arm off and beat him with it. Eh-heh-heh-heh."

He was attempting to control the frame by getting me to laugh and, therefore, agree with his premise rather than continue the conversation which he was uncomfortable having. This is a common technique used by McDojo instructors.

So I just said "oh."

And then I turned to leave and made this face: http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Terrible.

The people in that class had a very strong false sense of confidence. They really thought they were learning skills that would serve them in a fight.

And that is what so many schools are like.

Krav Maga is known for being all tough and "no nonsense" (granted, every art makes this claim).

I'm not saying every KM school sucks, just the one I went to.

[IronFist]

Bad teachers... give vague answers to keep from being found out.

Agree 110%!!!

This goes for any scammy person in a "guru" type position, not just martial arts teachers.

But it might be worse in martial arts because so many people want to fall for that crap, like fortune cookie wisdom type stuff. You know, the teacher speaks in riddles and after the student trains really hard, he finally understands it as he attains mastery!

Guess what, real life doesn't work like that. In real life you need specific, quantifiable answers to things. Not vague baloney that doesn't answer the question.

It's like I mentioned in my previous post. Bad teachers will do this kind of thing, and often interject a joke, to try and control the fame/conversation and get the student to go along with him/accept his frame.

I can write more about this if anyone is interested but it's my bedtime now.

[RWilson]

I've had teachers like that, too. I took a demo lesson at a Krav Maga school and never came back for another one. I made a thread about it 6 years ago or whenever it was, too.

First we did punching drills with a partner. I got excited because I thought "awesome, right off the bat we're doing drills against resisting opponents!"

WRONG.

We had to throw these stupid hooking punches and the other guy was to reach out and block them with this "wax on/wax off" type of hook block.

I wasn't reaching out enough, so the teacher came over and corrected my form http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Anyone who has ever fought against a resisting opponent knows that reaching out to block punches is a good way to get punched. Most people do it once or twice before they learn.

He also corrected my fighting stance, encouraging me to extend my arms further away from my face. Now I was coming from an MMA school where we did exclusively crazy monkey boxing, so I was used to having my hands right next to, if not on, my forehead. Anything feels "too far" by comparison. But he had me get my lead hand pretty far away. Not being the kind of person to come in and disrespect another style, I obliged (while hoping my muscle memory would forgive me). He wanted my lead hand a good 20-24" away from my face. What is this, Karate Kid?

The next thing we did was punch while the overweight teacher counted reps.

The next thing we did was a knee attack drill into a pad that our partner held. FOR FORTY FIVE MINUTES.

There was no discussion of how to get into that position.

There was no discussion of what to do if the opponent resists.

It was just put your arm around your partner's neck and knee the pad.

Why does that need to be trained for 45 minutes? Even untrained people can throw a powerful knee strike.

The teacher had a massive "too deadly to train with my students" vibe.

After class, I asked him if they did any grappling in the class. His reply was, and I quote:

"No, we don't grapple. I prefer to rip a guy's arm off and beat him with it. Eh-heh-heh-heh."

He was attempting to control the frame by getting me to laugh and, therefore, agree with his premise rather than continue the conversation which he was uncomfortable having. This is a common technique used by McDojo instructors.

So I just said "oh."

And then I turned to leave and made this face: http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Terrible.

The people in that class had a very strong false sense of confidence. They really thought they were learning skills that would serve them in a fight.

And that is what so many schools are like.

Krav Maga is known for being all tough and "no nonsense" (granted, every art makes this claim).

I'm not saying every KM school sucks, just the one I went to.

We could both go on and on...and I probably will but what is the point? Poole believe what they want just like in politics and do not listen to the other side. Unfortunately there is this automatic defense of tcma and its teachers based on dogma and the teacher being well known. If I do not reveal names I am a troll. If I do then I am engaging in slander and libel according to the guy who will hopefully keep low after his gracious apology to me. :)

The tcma I debate with here defend Kung fu because of their teacher. Is it not interesting that they happened to find the ONE real deal tcma teacher while the rest of us are floundering around? And video of these "amazing" classes would probably show the crap that I just mentioned.

I met a tcmaist recently and asked who his teacher was. He would not give me his name stating that he does not teach publicly and only his group of disciples. I am thinking this guy is a criminal of sorts. Maybe he was involved in the deadly streetfights of back then or learned the secret twisting fist form from Chn Zhen. OR the guy was embarrassed by the crap that he does and intimidated by the class we were all in. Who knows. Another secret teacher that will die with the world not caring.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I do then I am engaging in slander and libel according to the guy who will hopefully keep low after his gracious apology to me. :)

It's only libel if it's not true :) The burden of proof is on the accuser to produce evidence of libel.

And it's not slander because we're online and no one is saying anything. We're just writing stuff.


Is it not interesting that they happened to find the ONE real deal tcma teacher while the rest of us are floundering around?

<snip>

I met a tcmaist recently and asked who his teacher was. He would not give me his name stating that he does not teach publicly and only his group of disciples.

That sounds an awful lot like Ashida Kim's story.

Or any of the 80's ninja sensei who were taught by a secret ninja master who didn't have classes open to the public, and they're not allowed to reveal their name because it's a secret.

But they'll be happy to teach you all their ninja tricks for the low low price of $400/month plus uniform fees, association fees, belt testing fees, and administration fees. Must pay a year at a time, no cancelations/refunds.

[Robinhood]

And this folks is the exact attitude of a bad teacher. Bad teachers do not know what they are doing and give vague answers to keep from being found out. Many good students get ruined by bad teschers


Lol Ya, your the one , you just don't know it. Go get 10 years of experence doing what you think is fighting, then you will have a better chance at finding a good instructor.

[IronFist]

Lol Ya, your the one , you just don't know it. Go get 10 years of experence doing what you think is fighting, then you will have a better chance at finding a good instructor.

It is easier to identify a good school if you've been through some McDojos first.

Admittedly, the noob who knows nothing won't really be able to tell the difference at first. We all thought we were learning useful 10 hit counters to punches at one point until we realized they won't actually work in a fight (unless you're fighting a mannequin).

It's also easy to identify McDojos if you've been to a good school.

[IronFist]

It's like I mentioned in my previous post. Bad teachers will do this kind of thing, and often interject a joke, to try and control the fame/conversation and get the student to go along with him/accept his frame.

I can write more about this if anyone is interested but it's my bedtime now.

I think i will. This is an important topic although some people aren't ready to understand it yet. This kind of thing took me a while to understand, personally.

Frame control:

Frame is a concept that describes the overall implication of a situation.

Frame control refers to controlling the implications of a situation.

For example, if I am trying to sell you something, if I ask "do you want to buy this?" that sets the frame that you are the one deciding. You can say "yes" or "no."

Now, if I am trying to sell you something and I ask "so do you want the small package or the deluxe package?" that sets the frame that you are going to be buying something regardless of which one you pick. You can say "the small package" or the "the deluxe package."

Of course, you can always say "uh... I don't want either," but because I have already set the frame that you are going to be buying something, you would feel a lot of uncomfortable social pressure if you said anything other than "the small package" or "the deluxe package." People don't like feeling social pressure and most people are not confident enough in themselves to handle much of it.

This is why scammers hate freethinkers, by the way, because free thinkers will look at the facts and call them on their bull**** rather than allowing themselves to be pulled into their frame. If you have ever seen a situation that caused you to think "wow, I can't believe all those people are falling for that BS," you've just witnessed it. Maybe it was an infomercial, maybe it was people going to a quack "doctor," maybe you walked by a mall kiosk and saw someone selling a bunch of crap that doesn't really work to some people who got sucked into his spiel. It's also very hard to realize when it's happening to you. Another example is every cult ever.

So let's go back to the example of the Krav Maga instructor answering my question about grappling:

Me: "Do you guys do any grappling here?"

Instructor: "No, we don't grapple. I prefer to rip a guy's arm off and beat him with it. Eh-heh-heh-heh."

He was attempting to control the frame by quickly answering my question with a "no," and then immediately going into a reason why they don't grapple. The reason was obviously hyperbole (you don't really rip a guy's arm off) and was designed to get noobs to defer to his authority (he is the instructor, therefore he should know what he's talking about). The laugh at the end was also key. He was obviously uncomfortable being asked about grappling, so by quickly passing it off as not being important, downplaying and joking about how he'd rather just rip a guy's arm off, and then laughing at the end, he was trying to get me to submit to his frame and say something like "haha, that's a good point" or something else like that. If I agree with him, then we are on the same page that grappling isn't really that important of a skill and, more importantly, it means I think he is an all-knowing bad ass super deadly instructor and am likely to pay for lessons.

But I didn't agree, nor did I laugh, because his comment was stupid and his class sucked.

In fact, it sealed the deal that I wouldn't be coming back.

Or in other words, my frame was stronger than his and he wasn't able to pull me in.

This post just touches the surface of frame control. It's an important concept to be familiar with because it helps you identify when someone is trying to subtly control you as well as when someone is BS'ing you (often in an attempt to influence you).

Another example is when you ask someone a specific question and get a vague reply, or a vague reply + a joke. And as people in the TMA world, we have all seen this many many many times.

How many of you have had a TMA teacher that you thought was extremely deadly?

Why did you think that? Did you ever actually see him demonstrate a high level of skill against a resisting opponent, or did he just subtly imply it both through his own actions and through the behaviors of the other students in his school?

Did you only see him throw students around the room who weren't really resisting, and who left their arms extended?

And, how often did you see them throw a punch, leave it extended, the teacher does some 10-hit counter technique, and then everyone laughs subtly reaffirming just how deadly your teacher is?!

That last example is literally 90% of TMA demos and classes I have seen.

Student throws a slow punch, leaves arm extended.

Teacher does a 10-hit counter like 10 times faster than the student threw the punch.

Student laughs as he thinks "wow, how easily I would get destroyed in a real fight, good thing my teacher went easy on me."

Student adopts the frame that his teacher is super deadly without his teacher ever doing anything.

This is also how all those no-touch nonsense schools work, and also why those techniques don't work on outsiders.

Gentlemen, this is one of the most important posts you will read on this entire forum, or possibly anywhere, in your lives.

Always keep your BS detectors turned on, especially when dealing with martial arts.

[RWilson]

I have come across two different kinds of teachers.

One teaches how to do skills. He teaches you how to throw and lets you throw him. He teaches you how to hit and then sends you to the bag. When teaching throws he teaches you how to create momentum and shows how momentary body mechanics help. This teacher emphasizes conditioning and makes it part of his class. This is how student learn how to do it on their own. This teacher is good.

Here is the other kind of teacher I have come across. This teacher sucks. He talks about what magic acu points to press on before throwing the guy, he has you strike him slow and then super speed counters, you have to fall for him because he is too old to throw you but still believes he can, he extracts techniques from forms and demos on arm hangers. He talks about static positions when "trapping" in striking and says, "if he moves here I move here. It is so easy". He does not freestyle with you. This teacher may or may not believe in conditioning but says you should do it on your own but the truth is he stopped years ago. He talks about how this helps a smaller person beat the bigger stronger person.

Have you guys come across these kinds? Which did you prefer?

The biggest reason for the two teachers is that the first teacher still competes. He is with it. The second teacher either never competed/fought or he did so in his youth. He allowed his actual training to stagnate and sat around thinking all day about how to apply instead of actually applying.


I should clarify my initial post. The second teacher teaches like he is old. He does not necessarily have to be old but he teaches like he is. He shows the curriculum and expects students to gain skills on their own. For example, we got shown stepping drills that made us walk in a figure 8. We spent the whole class doing this drill. The teacher demoed it and the whole class was like, "Oh! That's why we're doing this!". Initially it was also described as a form of nei gong to open the Ming men point. The demo he showed was, you guessed it, some contrived non-sense that would not have worked against force. I was fooled at the time. Point is thy someone that teaches like an old guy would have us doing the footwork drill and then drill the bs technique. He would then tell us that we have to be able to do spontaneously when the need arises.

Someone who was teaching like a young person would have fast forwarded right to the applying it to force. That way we would actually find out its application instead of just learning its shell.

[IronFist]

I should clarify my initial post. The second teacher teaches like he is old. He does not necessarily have to be old but he teaches like he is. He shows the curriculum and expects students to gain skills on their own. For example, we got shown stepping drills that made us walk in a figure 8. We spent the whole class doing this drill. The teacher demoed it and the whole class was like, "Oh! That's why we're doing this!". Initially it was also described as a form of nei gong to open the Ming men point. The demo he showed was, you guessed it, some contrived non-sense that would not have worked against force. I was fooled at the time. Point is thy someone that teaches like an old guy would have us doing the footwork drill and then drill the bs technique. He would then tell us that we have to be able to do spontaneously when the need arises.

Someone who was teaching like a young person would have fast forwarded right to the applying it to force. That way we would actually find out its application instead of just learning its shell.

Also take into consideration that some people want to be taught like that.

They want to be trained like they see in old kung fu movies: the student does some crap like walking in circles, or jumping on plum blossom poles, or using some piece of equipment that has that "mystic kung fu" feeling about it. He never actually trains against a resisting opponent in the movie until one day, after he has mastered the exercises (and often broken the piece of training equipment in the process), he is somehow "ready" and now possesses fighting skills.

A lot of people want to train that way. They want to do exercises that don't involve being hit yet have that mystic feeling to them, and they actually think they are learning to fight in the process because of 1) a preconception from movies and myths and 2) their teacher is leading them to believe they can fight.

IMO, a respectable teacher will explain the importance of training against a resisting opponent.

I understand not everyone wants to get hit, but he should at least say "look, if you do not train against resisting opponents, it is unlikely you will be able to defend yourself in real life. You don't have to, but this is what will happen if you don't." I'm not saying everyone has to train that way. There might be some older people in the class, people with chronic injuries, or other reasons people have who are just doing it for fitness or whatever.

But at least mention it to the student, and let him make the choice of how he wants to train.

Counting punches all day and 10 hit combos performed on willing partners don't teach you how to fight. And the false confidence it builds in people who don't know the difference probably makes them worse off than before they even started training. At least a noob with no training at all knows he doesn't have any training and will either instinctively run away or instinctively kickbox, letting the adrenaline take control. Joe Blue Belt from McDojo academy on the other hand doesn't realize that he won't be able to do his fancy techniques that require fine motor coordination when he is shaking from adrenaline, and he's also never been hit before and isn't expecting to be hit because he's a blue belt and knows 5 different 10 hit counters to punches. But what he doesn't realize is that his real opponent is probably moving around and probably trying to actually hit him and, just guessing on this last one, probably also retracting his punches after he throws them.

[wenshu]

I suggest a program of rigorous exercise. It would help to eventually eliminate your painfully obvious novice mentality and the overabundance of free time you have to express it.

[RWilson]

I suggest a program of rigorous exercise. It would help to eventually eliminate your painfully obvious novice mentality and the overabundance of free time you have to express it.

Oh ok. I guess ironfist, ihateashidakim, and I are novices. Bite me

[IronFist]

Well, I have been out of the MA world for the last 6 years...

And I've been out of the gym for the last 8 months while an injury heals, too.

Novice status achieved :o

[ginosifu]

I should clarify my initial post. The second teacher teaches like he is old. He does not necessarily have to be old but he teaches like he is. He shows the curriculum and expects students to gain skills on their own. For example, we got shown stepping drills that made us walk in a figure 8. We spent the whole class doing this drill. The teacher demoed it and the whole class was like, "Oh! That's why we're doing this!". Initially it was also described as a form of nei gong to open the Ming men point. The demo he showed was, you guessed it, some contrived non-sense that would not have worked against force. I was fooled at the time. Point is thy someone that teaches like an old guy would have us doing the footwork drill and then drill the bs technique. He would then tell us that we have to be able to do spontaneously when the need arises.

Someone who was teaching like a young person would have fast forwarded right to the applying it to force. That way we would actually find out its application instead of just learning its shell.

I am not sure of the skill level / style / teaching ability of your past teachers etc. However, you are overlooking a traditional teaching method you may not understand. It seems that you are only interested in jumping onto the mat and rolling around to pressure testing everything.

Some of the old school teaching involves drilling certain techniques over and over (figure 8 circle walking / stepping patterns etc etc). My teacher would say do this technique.... X...., not only would we do it all day but for months in a row. Then months later after thousands if not millions of times of repetitions, then he would say now muscle memory should be in place and we would dwelve into applying / pressure testing / sparring etc.

Again I don't know if your teachers were charlatans or not, but old school teaching relies heavily on the fact that you are there for many years working the basics. Solo movements / stepping patterns / fighting drills etc all need solo practice time and then.... pressure test.

If you just jump right into ring and start trying to pressure test everything right away, then you might as well just quit MA training. You are just a bar room brawler.... you are not learning a style or a skill. Any meathead can grab a guy and twist their arm. It does not take any skill for that. There are many who go for that kinda training nowadays... jump in the ring and kick the heavy bag a few times...roll around on the mat with a partner and say they are training in MA.

ginosifu

So in the end... patience and practice will get you Martial Skill

[RWilson]

I am not sure of the skill level / style / teaching ability of your past teachers etc. However, you are overlooking a traditional teaching method you may not understand. It seems that you are only interested in jumping onto the mat and rolling around to pressure testing everything.

Some of the old school teaching involves drilling certain techniques over and over (figure 8 circle walking / stepping patterns etc etc). My teacher would say do this technique.... X...., not only would we do it all day but for months in a row. Then months later after thousands if not millions of times of repetitions, then he would say now muscle memory should be in place and we would dwelve into applying / pressure testing / sparring etc.

Again I don't know if your teachers were charlatans or not, but old school teaching relies heavily on the fact that you are there for many years working the basics. Solo movements / stepping patterns / fighting drills etc all need solo practice time and then.... pressure test.

If you just jump right into ring and start trying to pressure test everything right away, then you might as well just quit MA training. You are just a bar room brawler.... you are not learning a style or a skill. Any meathead can grab a guy and twist their arm. It does not take any skill for that. There are many who go for that kinda training nowadays... jump in the ring and kick the heavy bag a few times...roll around on the mat with a partner and say they are training in MA.

ginosifu

So in the end... patience and practice will get you Martial Skill
I do not think they are purposely fooling anyone. They do not know how to teach the fighting skills of the martial arts. They teach the shell(forms) but not the essence. IMO you do not need the shell to find the essence.

[MightyB]

I do not think they are purposely fooling anyone. They do not know how to teach the fighting skills of the martial arts. They teach the shell(forms) but not the essence. IMO you do not need the shell to find the essence.

well maybe a little shell. IMO a class should go like this: Warm Ups - new techniques introduced and refined then Cooperative Partner Drills then limited give and take style sparring and then free sparring for the competitive peeps. Shake up the free sparring every now and again with endurance sparring games like king of the hill (man goes out, rolls, fights, or randori with a person for a round - regardless of the winner, the man faces the next opponent - do this until he's faced everyone in the class - substitute a good 1 round rotation with each person facing everyone if time's a factor)

[IronFist]

Some of the old school teaching involves drilling certain techniques over and over (figure 8 circle walking / stepping patterns etc etc). My teacher would say do this technique.... X...., not only would we do it all day but for months in a row. Then months later after thousands if not millions of times of repetitions, then he would say now muscle memory should be in place and we would dwelve into applying / pressure testing / sparring etc.

Again I don't know if your teachers were charlatans or not, but old school teaching relies heavily on the fact that you are there for many years working the basics. Solo movements / stepping patterns / fighting drills etc all need solo practice time and then.... pressure test.

That's certainly a good way to drill a technique into muscle memory.

But it begs the question why do you want to drill figure 8 circle walking into muscle memory for fighting?

edit - if your goal is fitness, preservation of the arts, history, culture, etc. then by all means go ahead. But if your goal is fighting, has anyone ever used figure 8 walking in a documented tournament?


If you just jump right into ring and start trying to pressure test everything right away, then you might as well just quit MA training. You are just a bar room brawler.... you are not learning a style or a skill. Any meathead can grab a guy and twist their arm. It does not take any skill for that. There are many who go for that kinda training nowadays... jump in the ring and kick the heavy bag a few times...roll around on the mat with a partner and say they are training in MA.

Agreed that the fundamentals of a technique should be learned before trying to use it for realsies.

Some techniques, I believe, are best learned in a realistic environment, however. For example, crazy monkey boxing. You can teach someone the basics quickly, but they need to use it to get it. Beginners learn it quickly with their backs to the wall and someone throwing punches at them; punches that will actually hit them if they don't block. It helps them overcome the instinct to back away from an advancing attacker, because they can't; the wall is in the way. Now you don't go punching a noob hard, but he knows he will get hit if he doesn't block. We warmed up every class with 10-20 minutes of crazy monkey drills. Against the wall, then your partner against the wall, then with both people moving around and both people attacking, change partners every few minutes.

It's a warmup. You're not trying to kill the other guy, but you are both resisting and both trying to hit each other (again, not HARD). Mouth guards in. I got a few bloody noses just from this warmup because I suck :o And before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not bragging, and bloody noses aren't the goal. It just means I didn't block correctly and I got hit.

15 minutes of this 2 or 3 times a week will make someone an infinitely more competent fighter than 5 years of 10 hit combo McDojo nonsense.

[RWilson]

Gino,
The problem with what you stated is you are assuming the techniques you are drilling are the way it is going to happen. The very term technique is applied principles. This can only be done spontaneously. You cannot imagine how someone will react and drill that one move, or sequence of moves, because the muscle memory you are building is based on falsehood. You will train this one thing and the opponent will move in a totally different manner and your muscle memory will go back to kickboxing. Ever heard of wing chun? They drill non-sense for years only to have it turn into kickboxing.

[Drake]

You didn't take your rape well at all, did you?

I suggest therapy. Whining about it on an internet message board makes you look like you are weak, and ready and willing to be raped again.

[RWilson]

You didn't take your rape well at all, did you?

I suggest therapy. Whining about it on an internet message board makes you look like you are weak, and ready and willing to be raped again.

Sorry I do not have a protected roof over my head paid for by the government like you. Sorry I have to make my own meals or pay for it with my own money. Sorry I have to actually see mt wife and kids and not shrug off responsibility for 7 years. Sorry I have to actually get dressed up for work. Sorry I do not have to have manliness and discipline artificially placed in me by the military. Sorry I do not have all my meals prepared for me like a kid when my mom used to do it. You are the coolest military man I know.

[kuniggety]

Since when does being in the military mean you don't take care of yourself and shrug off your family? :confused:

[LivingArt]

that's a nice loaded question thread wilson, how about you present a reasonable discussion for this forum ?

you don't believe or havent been shown the practical sides of CMA, while giving examples of other MA's ? That's fine, but why present this one sided argument in the KUNG FU section instead of the MMA section?

[ginosifu]

Gino,
The problem with what you stated is you are assuming the techniques you are drilling are the way it is going to happen. The very term technique is applied principles. This can only be done spontaneously.

No drill / technique / stepping pattern etc, will ever work exactly how you solo practice it. Solo practice (if done right) helps your muscle memory to re-act in a certain way when attacked. Stepping patterns like figure 8 walking are only footwork drills and they are only designed to help you step and move in a certain way, NOT a fighting technique per say. As you apply it, so many variables come into play that it probably will never look exactly like your drill or technique.


You cannot imagine how someone will react and drill that one move, or sequence of moves, because the muscle memory you are building is based on falsehood. You will train this one thing and the opponent will move in a totally different manner and your muscle memory will go back to kickboxing

No one can determine how a person will move / fight / punch etc. However, most good solo practice techniques / drills are generalized to make you move / punch / kick a certain way. These techniques help you move, following that systems principles and theories. Not to make follow that drill to the "T". If you were to watch me fight or spar, it will definately not look like kickboxing no matter what my opponent does. I apply my technique no matter what they do or where they move to.Maybe one of these days I will try to put up a cilp of some sparring stuff so you guys can see.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

But it begs the question why do you want to drill figure 8 circle walking into muscle memory for fighting?

Stepping patterns like figure 8 walking are only to teach you how move / step in a certain way. In Northern Shaolin we do whats called side stepping. There are many solo side stepping drills that I have done over the years..... all geared to help muscle memory force you to move / step in a certain way, NOT fight a certain way.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

that's a nice loaded question thread wilson, how about you present a reasonable discussion for this forum ?

you don't believe or havent been shown the practical sides of CMA, while giving examples of other MA's ? That's fine, but why present this one sided argument in the KUNG FU section instead of the MMA section?

You assumed the first category of teachers I mentioned are from mma. Interesting. Is it because you personally have not found a tcma teacher in the first category? Present the other side of the argument. Why does tcma training mean show stdents the shell(forms) and extrapolate techniques from it?

It is not just tcma. I have some stuff from Stephn Hayes the American ninja. H does the same thing. He shows a ninja form sequence and then tries to apply it to real situations. A mechanical sequence cannot be applied spontaneously.

[SimonM]

I'm going to try being all reasonable for a second. :eek: Shocking, I know, right? And suggest that on the issue of drilling and muscle memory both Ginosifu and RWilson are half-right.

Footwork drills are important. Anybody who has ever picked up a sword knows that (and sorry, but sword-work is a big part of my kung fu so it's going to matter to me - anybody with an issue with the practicality of that can meet me with a bokken in his hand ;) ) and, frankly, it can be helpful to drill the footwork intensively without distractions so that your legs will get used to moving in certain ways.

That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

In other words use the tool that works for what you are training. If you need to learn how to move around an environment do that. If you need to learn how to throw a guy into the ground do that.

[bawang]

Sorry I do not have a protected roof over my head paid for by the government like you. Sorry I have to make my own meals or pay for it with my own money. Sorry I have to actually see mt wife and kids and not shrug off responsibility for 7 years. Sorry I have to actually get dressed up for work. Sorry I do not have to have manliness and discipline artificially placed in me by the military. Sorry I do not have all my meals prepared for me like a kid when my mom used to do it. You are the coolest military man I know.

drake is a warrior. he is what you fantasize, but failed, to be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm going to try being all reasonable for a second. :eek: Shocking, I know, right? And suggest that on the issue of drilling and muscle memory both Ginosifu and RWilson are half-right.

Footwork drills are important. Anybody who has ever picked up a sword knows that (and sorry, but sword-work is a big part of my kung fu so it's going to matter to me - anybody with an issue with the practicality of that can meet me with a bokken in his hand ;) ) and, frankly, it can be helpful to drill the footwork intensively without distractions so that your legs will get used to moving in certain ways.

That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

In other words use the tool that works for what you are training. If you need to learn how to move around an environment do that. If you need to learn how to throw a guy into the ground do that.

Agreed.
Too many times things fall apart because the base is NOT developed under the context it will be used.
You can take almost ANY static and dead exercise and make it dynamic and applicable to real fighting, you just have to do it BY FIGHTING with it enough.
The other issue that is especially "harmful" for the more "specialized system" ( Systems that tend to fight in an "unnatural way" compared to say boxing) is that those system were developed to fighting AGAINST other systems BUT the tend to be trained and ( when they fight( fought against each other.
Not the way to go.

[RWilson]

drake is a warrior. he is what you fantasize, but failed, to be.

If I am a cook in the army am I a warrior?? Not everyone is on the field of battle. Drake is in army intelligence.

[ShaolinDan]

If I am a cook in the army am I a warrior?? Not everyone is on the field of battle. Drake is in army intelligence.

It would make you a "Cookie." Military cooks are still soldiers. Intelligence operations are the epitome of the Art of War. You are really obnoxious. But I guess that's the point? :p

[RWilson]

I'm going to try being all reasonable for a second. :eek: Shocking, I know, right? And suggest that on the issue of drilling and muscle memory both Ginosifu and RWilson are half-right.

Footwork drills are important. Anybody who has ever picked up a sword knows that (and sorry, but sword-work is a big part of my kung fu so it's going to matter to me - anybody with an issue with the practicality of that can meet me with a bokken in his hand ;) ) and, frankly, it can be helpful to drill the footwork intensively without distractions so that your legs will get used to moving in certain ways.

That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

In other words use the tool that works for what you are training. If you need to learn how to move around an environment do that. If you need to learn how to throw a guy into the ground do that.


Most sensible post ever

[Dale Dugas]

I attended a Quaker College(Earlham College) and many of my Quaker teachers had served during the war as medics, and other non-fighting but essential personnel.

They do not fight, but they serve.

You do not have to kill people to be a warrior or soldier.

[RWilson]

It would make you a "Cookie." Military cooks are still soldiers. Intelligence operations are the epitome of the Art of War. You are really obnoxious. But I guess that's the point? :p

I am not trying to be obnoxious. ;)

[RWilson]

I attended a Quaker College(Earlham College) and many of my Quaker teachers had served during the war as medics, and other non-fighting but essential personnel.

They do not fight, but they serve.

You do not have to kill people to be a warrior or soldier.

You do not have to be a warrior to serve meaning not all who serve are warriors. I am not denigrating service in the military. I just do not like Drake's tone. I have the utmost respect for the military but it has its bad sides.

My friend served in Iraq for 8 years. He is nOw divorced. His kids...:(. It can be argued that he was not a part of the family while on tour. It is sad but the results of his family life speak volumes. I know another guy who is an x-ray tech in the army. He has not seen battle and is not a warrior. I think we are just mincing words.

[bawang]

My friend served in Iraq for 8 years. He is nOw divorced. His kids...:(. It can be argued that he was not a part of the family while on tour.

or that his family betrayed him.

[RWilson]

or that his family betrayed him.

He should have told his kids not to grow up. It is his fault.

[IronFist]

It is not just tcma. I have some stuff from Stephn Hayes the American ninja. H does the same thing. He shows a ninja form sequence and then tries to apply it to real situations. A mechanical sequence cannot be applied spontaneously.

I'll agree with this.

Stephen Hayes seems like a cool dude but most of his stuff suffers from the same problems as every other TMA, at least from what I have seen in his books and videos.

I still have most of his books, though. Ninja stuff is cool :cool:


That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

Agreed.

"Footwork practice," if one is doing that, should be treated as nothing more than a set of parameters.

I think too many people think "this is how you step/move in a fight. Exactly like this. These footwork exercises are making me a good fighter." And that is wrong.

Now that thought will be instantly disproven the moment you add a resisting opponent to the training, but as we know, a lot of people never get to experience that because they train at a McDojo.

[jmd161]

I'll agree with this.

Agreed.

"Footwork practice," if one is doing that, should be treated as nothing more than a set of parameters.

I think too many people think "this is how you step/move in a fight. Exactly like this. These footwork exercises are making me a good fighter." And that is wrong.
Now that thought will be instantly disproven the moment you add a resisting opponent to the training, but as we know, a lot of people never get to experience that because they train at a McDojo.

I think this is correct... too many people don't really understand how to transition either! We train a lot of footwork in Hak Fu Mun but, a lot of it is hopping or shuffling for creating or closing distance.

[SPJ]

I have come across two different kinds of teachers.

One teaches how to do skills. He teaches you how to throw and lets you throw him. He teaches you how to hit and then sends you to the bag. When teaching throws he teaches you how to create momentum and shows how momentary body mechanics help. This teacher emphasizes conditioning and makes it part of his class. This is how student learn how to do it on their own. This teacher is good.

Here is the other kind of teacher I have come across. This teacher sucks. He talks about what magic acu points to press on before throwing the guy, he has you strike him slow and then super speed counters, you have to fall for him because he is too old to throw you but still believes he can, he extracts techniques from forms and demos on arm hangers. He talks about static positions when "trapping" in striking and says, "if he moves here I move here. It is so easy". He does not freestyle with you. This teacher may or may not believe in conditioning but says you should do it on your own but the truth is he stopped years ago. He talks about how this helps a smaller person beat the bigger stronger person.

Have you guys come across these kinds? Which did you prefer?

The biggest reason for the two teachers is that the first teacher still competes. He is with it. The second teacher either never competed/fought or he did so in his youth. He allowed his actual training to stagnate and sat around thinking all day about how to apply instead of actually applying.

Each door has its own key.

If you want to be a UFC or MMA ring fighter, you go to a teacher that won UFC or MMA rule sets fights.

If you want to learn some Qigong, you go to Qi gong teacher to learn some standing and moving with breathing.

If you want to learn how to Box, you go to a teacher that won Boxing matches.

If you want to learn how to MT

how to SJ or BJJ

---

Ask your self first what you want

then select the teacher that would help you most along the way.

--

:)

[SPJ]

There are 2 kinds of students

One that knows what he or she wants.

The other does not.

:)

[RWilson]

Each door has its own key.

If you want to be a UFC or MMA ring fighter, you go to a teacher that won UFC or MMA rule sets fights.

If you want to learn some Qigong, you go to Qi gong teacher to learn some standing and moving with breathing.

If you want to learn how to Box, you go to a teacher that won Boxing matches.

If you want to learn how to MT

how to SJ or BJJ

---

Ask your self first what you want

then select the teacher that would help you most along the way.

--

:)

Your post is incomplete. I like how you listed skills. What skill would I go to a tcma teacher to learn? SJ is known for throwing. Mantis is known for?????

[Lucas]

now it wouldnt be my first choice, or probably any of my choices, but a walther ppk is just fine to stop someone. no it doesnt have the impact that a .38 or a .45 will have but if i put 2 or 3 rounds in you, you arent going anywhere man. i dont really care who you are. the only way around that is a vest, and who walks around in a vest that is not active enforcement?

[RWilson]

now it wouldnt be my first choice, or probably any of my choices, but a walther ppk is just fine to stop someone. no it doesnt have the impact that a .38 or a .45 will have but if i put 2 or 3 rounds in you, you arent going anywhere man. i dont really care who you are. the only way around that is a vest, and who walks around in a vest that is not active enforcement?

If a guy is running at you adrenaline filled he may not feel a walther ppk. A 38 will knock him back allowing him to see and feel the damage. Might not happen with the janes bond gun. You also have to be at closer range to have impact.

[bawang]

i always carry a vial of pcp with me when i go out for a walk.

[Lucas]

he'll feel it when his lungs fill with blood. :p

i know what you're saying, but holes in your body are still holes in your body. maybe in the extreme off chance that you are dealing with a highly drugged individual, but pretty much anyone will have a 'reality crash' the moment they get shot. hard not to see a gun pointed, aimed and shot from a guy you are running at...

[Lucas]

i always carry a vial of pcp with me when i go out for a walk.

thats cuz you are the messiah

[RWilson]

he'll feel it when his lungs fill with blood. :p

i know what you're saying, but holes in your body are still holes in your body. maybe in the extreme off chance that you are dealing with a highly drugged individual, but pretty much anyone will have a 'reality crash' the moment they get shot. hard not to see a gun pointed, aimed and shot from a guy you are running at...

Google cop that got sliced up by knife attacker while the attacker had been shot already. It happens, bro. Adrenalin will stop the pain Of bullets if you are drugged up, angry, and really close to the guy shooting you.

[Drake]

If I am a cook in the army am I a warrior?? Not everyone is on the field of battle. Drake is in army intelligence.

Our cook was in a firefight. She now has a combat action badge. She also ran patrols and had to react to car bombs going off and IEDs. She was nearly hit by a piece of shrapnel. Shows what you know.

Were you raped by a soldier, too? Sounds like it. Getting raped all the time, no wonder you are so angry at all the stronger people around you raping you.

[Drake]

You do not have to be a warrior to serve meaning not all who serve are warriors. I am not denigrating service in the military. I just do not like Drake's tone. I have the utmost respect for the military but it has its bad sides.

My friend served in Iraq for 8 years. He is nOw divorced. His kids...:(. It can be argued that he was not a part of the family while on tour. It is sad but the results of his family life speak volumes. I know another guy who is an x-ray tech in the army. He has not seen battle and is not a warrior. I think we are just mincing words.

Served in Iraq for eight years? You are a liar. That would mean he never redeployed. Ever. That's not even legal, much less even possible.

Stop lying. Get therapy.

It's obvious you know as little about the military as you do martial arts.

[bawang]

this guy always comes around this time every summer, and you guys fall for it.

[jmd161]

http://www.break.com/index/man-unfazed-by-cops-taser-2315322

:D

[Lucas]

this guy always comes around this time every summer, and you guys fall for it.

well its obvious he comes here for attention. so we oblige. cuz we are nice. and totally awesome. did i mention we were awesome?

[Drake]

this guy always comes around this time every summer, and you guys fall for it.

Because it doesn't smell like death and fire. It smells like *****. Of course I'm going to investigate.

[bawang]

when i read his post, i pretend he is sexy feisty womans with the yellow hairs and make hand party.

[kuniggety]

Drake is in army intelligence.

What an oxymoron.

I can say this because I'm AF intel :D

[Raipizo]

Our cook was in a firefight. She now has a combat action badge. She also ran patrols and had to react to car bombs going off and IEDs. She was nearly hit by a piece of shrapnel. Shows what you know.

Were you raped by a soldier, too? Sounds like it. Getting raped all the time, no wonder you are so angry at all the stronger people around you raping you.

What's up with your fascination with rape

[Raipizo]

Now that thought will be instantly disproven the moment you add a resisting opponent to the training, but as we know, a lot of people never get to experience that because they train at a McDojo.

What about Dairykwoon? :p

[Drake]

What's up with your fascination with rape

Seemed the most appropriate term for the situation.

DJ NOTE: This post is not directed at any person, thing, or organization, and any similarities to any person, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

[IronFist]

What about Dairykwoon? :p

That sounds delicious right now.

[Raipizo]

With our signature chi sauce. You just seem overly hostile is all Drake.

[Drake]

With our signature chi sauce. You just seem overly hostile is all Drake.

Hostile is knocking someone down and stomping on their head to see if you can get their eyeballs to literally pop out.

Being mean on the internet only hurts weak people.