Trad Kung Fu Training

[neptunesfall]

from the posts i've read it seems that almost everyone on this board uses weight training. does anyone here use the traditional 'hard' qigong [ie, muscle tendon change, iron buddha, iron body...the moving isometric exercises]forms in lieu of weight training? or is it just me? heh....

[David]

I do.

Every time I do bodyweight exercises (I don't have any weights) I think to myself "Isn't my hay gung and form isometrics enough? Don't I have faith in the methods?".

I think I'm focussing more because I have a lot of strength to catch up on after having persistent arm trouble affecting me for 2 years out of nearly 4 of training.

However, I'm not sure how this trad training prepares you for the activity involved in say a running battle. The fitness you need then is the fitness of a footballer (ie a "soccer" player"). 90 minutes of chasing the ball, switching directions and pace all the time.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[neptunesfall]

david....

are you saying you can not attain this level [soccer player] of athleticism by kung fu alone?

if that is the case, i'll have to disagree.

cardio and endurance can be attained by repeating forms and drills as well as lengthening the time
stances are held, etc. etc.

if that isn't what you meant...please disregard above comment....

as for your faith in the methods. try addressing faith and honesty in yourself - are you really doing them as hard as you can? etc etc.

what forms of trad strength training do you do, by the way?

are we the only ones who do the traditional training????

[Scarletmantis]

No, you are not. :D

"The essence of life is struggle, and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war." - The Way and the Power

[SevenStar]

I do them both. the traditional training can't give you the same size and raw strength gains as weight training.

those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya

[neptunesfall]

why do you think that traditonal training won't give you as much benefit as weight training?

[prana]

I fractured my elbow in multiple places following a fall. The doctors did not see that I would have full mobility of my arm after that, but after 2 years of practising MA, I training as if my arms were never injured.

Don't underestimate the power Trad training.

:)

[David]

Neptune'sFall,

Whilst style training is hard work (by definition), there is a tendency to work sets, then one part of the body, then another, then another so your whole body is worked in stages and each bit gets some rest. In class, I may get out of breath occasionally but generally there's an atmosphere of control.

Playing football (soccer) has you runnning around like a demon on fire non-stop.

I'm not saying training doesn't prepare you. Well, I am actually... :p

I'm a relatively good runner. I can run 2/5/10 miles cold after a month of pizzas and watching tv. Then I heard about ****lek running. Slow fast walk slow fast walk etc. When I do that I'm wiped out very quick.

It's the fact of my recovery from injury that has set my mind working on understanding the mechanisms of strength and power. This has meant in increased interest in other methods of fitness and of the anatomy of sport and MA. I'm just a student...

When it comes down to it, my strength is increasing quite nicely again and in comparison with, say my flatmate who works out a lot, I'm strong. But he can swim a mile and I can't and I can run and he can't and he's better at cycling than me but I can do more pressups, harder hits, better arm wrestling, longer lasting chi sao. There's so much to the human body I wish I'd learned about this stuff at school...

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[SevenStar]

because it won't. not in terms of size and raw strength. I have a sihing that holds about an 8 minute horse stance, and has really strong legs, but he can't squat nearly as much as me, and can't kick as hard. He can do 100 pushups easy - I can only do about 50 nonstop. I bench press 282, and he's not even close. He has more muscle endurance, but I have more strength.

Now, compared to endurance training, the results are probably similar, but for strength, weight training takes the cake.

those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya

[SevenStar]

"In class, I may get out of breath occasionally but generally there's an atmosphere of control.

Playing football (soccer) has you runnning around like a demon on fire non-stop.

I'm not saying training doesn't prepare you. Well, I am actually..."

I agree with this too, to an extent. in most classes I have seen, and when I was in jun fan and karate, we had those rest periods, it wasn't constant work. When I played football and ran track, it was constant activity.
My muay thai class was constant activity - like a jack rabbit on crack - as is my NSL class, so I get good endurance training from it.

Many MA classes don't get this focus on constant activity, because you have to watch the teacher demonstrate, or sit down while a group does forms, etc. Also, I know many MA that argue that "My style is meant to kill, and a real fight only lasts a few seconds, so I don't need cardio training." While fights do only last a few seconds, I still want to be in the best shape possible, as it has many advantages in training, competing and fighting.

those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya

[David]

7star, we don't sit around watching each other but the nature of the training is such that after running around for a bit we'll do a static exercise for a while which strains you in your muscles etc but not your lungs, so if you were out of breath, you are soon back in breath in time for any more "running around"

There's more to kungfu than being strong...

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[SevenStar]

"7star, we don't sit around watching each other but the nature of the training is such that after
running around for a bit we'll do a static exercise for a while which strains you in your muscles etc but not your lungs, so if you were out of breath, you are soon back in breath in time for
any more "running around" "

This is true. I was just giving one example. Either way, as we agree, things like soccer and track will involve a different level of cardiovascular intensity.


"There's more to kungfu than being strong..."

No doubt. However, that's not the issue I was addressing. He asked me why I thought you could get more raw strength and size increases from weight training than in kung fu.

those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya

[neptunesfall]

something that popped into my head this morning while i was working out.....
the big factors in a fight (ie, survival) are not just size strength and endurance. they are important. i think the most deciding factor in a fight would be survival instinct, ability to take punishment, whatever you want to call it.
i think that no matter how big or how strong you are, if your enemy can take more than you, he will win.
where does that leave the traditional vs weight training discussion?
well....as i have not mastered any of the special training qigongs - iron body, etc. - i can't really say. from all accounts, the special training qigongs improve strength and endurance as well as develop the amount of punishment you can take and raise it to almost incredible proportions.
which leads me to another question, for the weight trainers. how many of you have mastered the special qigongs, and which ones?

[nospam]

neptunesfall...totally disagree re: i think that no matter how big or how strong you are, if your enemy can take more than you, he will win.

Why? Because my traditional martial art does not teach to take more . It teaches how to be the ending force.

nospam.

[neptunesfall]

i see what you are saying, but that isn't the point i'm trying to make. as martial artists, we are all taught to be the ending force in a fight.
what i'm trying to say is that i'm tired and can't think any more, so i'm going to sleep. :p
i'll type more in the morning.....the computers at my work have that new virus that's infected about half of asia....so they're all down! heh heh heh!

[SevenStar]

"for the weight trainers. how many of you have mastered the special qigongs, and which ones?"

That's double-edged, bud... I can say "How many of the internalists can squat over 400 lbs and bench press amost 300?"

But that's not the point at all. The original point was that weight training gives more raw power than traditional training. You can't deny that. I train in a traditional style currently, so I know from experience. It will give you plenty of endurance, and strength - to a point. Weight training goes beyond that point.

"if your enemy can take more than you, he will win."

Not really. If I fight someone who can take more than me and I break his leg, what's he gonna do? If he can take punishment from my fists and is beating my tail, so I pick up a nearby brick and knock him out, what's he gonna do? What you say holds true in the ring, but not necessarily in a street fight.

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[IronFist]

I practiced stone warrior daily for about a year, and i didn't get as strong as i did from weight lifting for the same amount of time (i know there are other variables involved but still)

on the other hand, weight training won't give you iron body.

you gotta find a happy medium. what do you want more?

i know what i want more. i want sleep. goodnight everyone :)

iron

[Braden]

I don't do any traditional 'external' methods, because I've found they've been long outdated by modern methods.

On the other hand, I do plenty of traditional 'internal' methods. There simply aren't any alternatives.

But it's apples and oranges.

[neptunesfall]

"for the weight trainers. how many of you have mastered the special qigongs, and which ones?"

That's double-edged, bud... I can say "How many of the internalists can squat over 400 lbs and bench press amost 300?"
--------------
i'm not sure. i've never tried.
maybe i can get to a gym this weekend as a guest and see what my max's are. if i can, i'll post them here.

what is the proper way to test a max, anyway?
should i test my max's on freeweights or a machine? any input here would be helpful, so that i may do it correctly.

also, an advance "just for the record"....

my stats:
5'8"
143 lbs

my workout:
5 min sitting qigong
10 min standing qigong
14 min stances
30 min upper body moving isometric
(this is done in a half horse stance, so maybe it should count as stance training too? also, i am 90 days into the program, which is less than half. the program lasts 200 days)
30 min drills
10 min standing qigong
5 min sitting qigong

[This message was edited by neptunesfall on 09-21-01 at 06:41 AM.]

[SevenStar]

Test on free weights. your 1 rep max is the most you can do on your own without help from a spotter. be sure to have spotters when you attempt this.

Do you do any type of external workout?

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[neptunesfall]

i'm not sure what you mean by external workout. the moving isometrics would be considered external, in the traditional sense. if you're referring to weightlifting, no, i don't use weights.

i am picking a friend up from work this afternoon, who happens to be a member of a nearby gym. hopefully i can post results tonite.

[neptunesfall]

something i forgot to mention.....a while back - last year sometime - there was an article on the (Sifu John Allen's) Green Dragon womens weightlifting team. from what i remember, they consistently placed and/or won every competition they entered. they trained without the use of weights, ie traditional qigongs. i've tried searching the net for this info but could not find anything. if anyone has this magazine article, or can find info on the net, please post a link, send it to me or email me. the magaine was inside kung fu, i'm guessing.

[SevenStar]

punches, kicks, forms, pushups, iron buffalos, etc... that's what I'm referring to. Is that included with "drills"?

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[neptunesfall]

the bulk of my drills are shuai jiao (chiao) throwing techniques and my 10 favorite techniques.
i work forms once or twice a week, usually on the weekends, because of time restrictions (read as: too much **** work).

what's an iron buffalo?

no gym today either....

[dedalus]

As an internal stylist (bagua mainly), I do neither weight training nor hard qigong, and I think that contributes to getting structure right (because you don't have much strength to fall back on).

I would consider x-training for fitness, but I don't think its very useful for fighting either. A fight should be over as soon as possible (and possibly before it starts). No weight training or hard qigong can condition a human being to withstand point strikes (such as a strike to the carotid sinus) or well directed physical strikes (to eg. the clavicles or knee ligaments). So I don't think you need to consider "who can take more" punishment unless you're hammering away at each other indiscriminately or sparring in competition. Having said that, though, there are still plenty of brute fighters (like muay thai fighters) I'd be trembling to come up against under a bad moon...

I think the most important element in *street* fighting is *attitude*. Anyone who is sufficiently agitated, psychotic or scared is dangerous.

[SevenStar]

"I don't think its very useful for fighting either. A fight should be over as soon as possible (and possibly before it starts). No weight training or hard qigong can condition a human being to withstand point strikes (such as a strike to the carotid sinus) or well directed physical strikes (to eg. the clavicles or knee ligaments). So I don't think you need to consider "who can take more" punishment unless you're hammering away at each other indiscriminately or sparring in competition."

you're right, a fight SHOULD be over as soon as possible, but that's not always the case. It may go longer than you anticipated, or you may have to run. If you train for the worst situation, you will be better off. Pressure point strikes are awesome, but once again, you can't train for the optimal situation... During the bouncing, moving and adrenaline rushes involved in a fight, pressure points become a lot harder to hit, especially if you are new to that sort of thing. If you attempt your pressure point strikes and miss, you will wish you conditioned your body, as your opponent will be raining strikes on you. You may not be able to condition your body to withstand strikes to the clavicle or knee, but how many untrained fighters do you know that think about hitting either of those areas? There main targets are the face and body, which can be conditioned.

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[SevenStar]

Place your feet together on the ground and your hands shoulder width apart on the ground, a few inches or wo from your feet, so that your body forms an upside down V position. Swing your body towards the ground, forward and up, then back to the starting position. They work your shoulders pretty good. I have seen them referred to in an exercise magazine as superman pushups.

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[dedalus]

7 Star,

I know what you mean about point striking seeming finicky, but it's hardly a case of hit one point and step back the triumphant victor - you should be "raining" those strikes on them! I'd also suggest that if you've got the time to invest in weight training and the like, then you've got the time to learn an internal system. There are so many vital points on the human body (which you can hit with so many surfaces on your own) that you've got to realise there's bugger all anyone can do to keep you out.

My comments were also directed towards serious streetfighting, when your life is in danger. I don't think you need to fight with inexperienced arseclowns in the first place, but if you do you're hardly going to have to fall back on conditioning. Do them a favour and let them walk away.

Moreover, you *should* be worried about coming up against a streetfighter who will go through your joints like a blender. Nothing you can condition is so vital that you can't live without it. How do you think you can condition your face, anyway?

So I still say - get in there quick and fight with intent. End it. If you're talking about anything else, you're not in the type of situation I'm on about.

I'll pay the point about needing to be fit to run away, though :-)

[Fish of Fury]

SevenStar
are those Iron buffalos also called tiger stretches or tiger push ups?
how far in front of your feet do your hands start?

i used to enjoy weights when i did them years ago, but now i just do "traditional" stuff, and some pushups, crunches etc just for fun.

but i don't really know or care too much what's better than what, i just like to do my thang!

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Kumkuat]

I think the iron buffolo is also called dive bomber push ups or hindu pushups for some people as well.

[SevenStar]

My comments were directed towards serious streetfighting as well. Last I checked, my city was in the top 10 in the country for murder, burglary, auto theft and rape - the crime rate here is three times higher than the national average. Here, the average streetfight is serious, usually either weapons or multiple attackers are involved, and the average streetfighter is trying to tear through you like a blender. they do not know about striking to the knees and other targets we know to look for, but when they strike at your face, they are trying to break your nose and rip your jaw off of its hinges. They are trying to punch a hole in your chest and stomach, they are trying to knock you unconscious with a chair or stick or whatever is nearby.
I don't doubt the internal styles, matter of factly, I want to study bagua, but the closest teacher I know of is 7 hours away. My sifu also teaches taiji, but my interest in that is not quite as strong, so I don't train in it. I know that you are not talking about a one hit deal with the pressure point strikes, but if you are just beginning, and you attempt to hit the temple, the point in the neck that corresponds to the bladder, the points on the side of the body that direct blood flow back to the heart, then the heart and miss them all, what next? These may be mistakes that a beginner in this type of striking might make.

As far as conditioning, you are right, nothing you can condition is so vital you can't live without it, but if you aren't conditioned to take strikes to those areas they can still end a fight. And as far as face conditioning, when you take a hard shot to the jaw, things begin to spin. You need to know how to deal with this, that's more of a mental thing, but full contact fighting helps deal with it. Also, your neck and traps function as shock absorbers. By kdoing strengthening exercises for these areas, you can increase your ability to absorb a good shot to the head.

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[SevenStar]

yes, they are also called hindu squats.

1. Start with your hands on the floor, shoulder-width apart.

2. Your feet are on the floor (no knees) and your legs are wider than shoulder-width apart.

3. Starting position is butt in the air, head looking back to your heels.

4. Bend your elbows and lower your body in a circular arc, until your arms are straight. Your chest is up and your hips are almost touching the ground.

5. Look to the ceiling. Exhale.

6. Push back toward your heels once again. Straightening your arms and stretching your legs, as in #3.

7. Repeat

We also do another variation, with the legs close together. The leg together variation, in my oppinion, are harder.

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[dedalus]

**** that! I just wrote a lovely reply to those comments and then lost the lot. I'll try again later when I'm less ****ed off about it.

[dedalus]

Okay, let's try again. It was that comment about increasing the shock-absorption action of the neck by increasing its strength that interested me.

I've not been hit heavilly in a street fight, but in my training experience I've always found it easier to absorb (if not redirect) force by remaining as loose as possible. I actually trained for several years in karate before moving in to bagua, and although I was reasonably good by commercial karate standards, I used to get wiped-out in training drills with bagua fighters because I was just too tense. On one occassion I even injured several muscle groups in my neck by resisting the application of a "needle-at-sea-bottom" type neck kink (basically a sharp downwards jerk on the wrist, which incidentally also strikes several points at that location). With time I've grown very much looser, and some of the best internal fighters I've met have been looser still (and some even lighter than my own meagre 65kgs!).

The other thing that struck me about your post was that the type of conditioning you're talking about in taking those "stun" blows is more psychological than pysical, and thus not a matter of hard qigong or weight training. Can one anticipate their response to such blows without expereiencing them? Probably not. (While I was involved in karate, I used to get weekly lessons in "taking a punch" from my so-obliging instructor. I doubt it helped my fighting ability except to encourage me to leave myself more open in *sparring* matches in pursuit of offensive shots... certainly not an adaptive characteristic for streetfighting!) But consider also the body's natural response to the heavy stress of a fear situation - you get the steroid rush of adrenaline and the glucocorticoids. Athletes who are involved in contact sports are familiar with the difference this makes to both the stunning and painful effects of heavy blows.

Is point-striking something useful for beginners? Maybe not. But how many fights are you planning on having anyway? There's time to learn. Moreover, the effectiveness of the internal arts in many ways comes back to *intent* (I'm sure the xingyi guys out there would agree). One doesn't even entertain the notion of being hit - you just want to rip through your attacker like a wild animal. You want to *exceed* their level of viciousness - because that's what is effective in real fighting. I became a vastly better fighter within weeks of beginning bagua, and to my mind that's the reason why. Fighting isn't a kind of dialogue in which blows are to be exchanged - its more of a screaming psychotic rant that cuts straight to the hate.

I think that all came out more nicely the first time, but there you go. I'll try to finesse the argument if you want to point out some more weaknesses.

[jun_erh]

In "abbot hai teng" a shaolin documentary, the students indeed use weights. They are homeade, they use them up on posts and in ways you don't see at Gold's gym, but they are using them. I my opinion, you need to do some weight training for power and cardio (running,biking) for endurance along with your training.

[SevenStar]

"Maybe not. But how many fights are you planning on having anyway? There's time to learn."

Who plans to have them, other than pro and amateur fighters? Since I enjoy fighting in the ring, I actually do plan to have several, but you cannot predict when you will have a street fight. One of my KF brothers recently got into a fight in a bar. Some guy just from out of nowhere pushed and clocked him. My friend proceeded to take the guy down and subdue him. He didn't want that fight, it just happened. You can't train with the mindset of "I have time to learn" You have no way of knowing when you will be attacked.

"Moreover, the effectiveness of the internal arts in many ways comes back to *intent* (I'm sure the xingyi guys out there would agree). One doesn't even entertain the notion of being hit - you just want to rip through your attacker like a wild animal."

That's a great mindset to be in. The sad reality is that more than likely, you will be hit. you must know how to deal with this.

"The other thing that struck me about your post was that the type of conditioning you're talking about in taking those "stun" blows is more psychological than pysical, and thus not a matter of hard qigong or weight training"

you are correct. I stated that it was psychological. the head begins to spin and you tend to "forget" your training. The physical aspect had to do with absorbing the blow, not actually coping with it, which I'll address next. both are necessary.

"I've not been hit heavilly in a street fight, but in my training experience I've always found it easier to absorb (if not redirect) force by remaining as loose as possible."

I agree. but if you get hit in the face, you've already been hit - you can't redirect that. I'm not saying tense your muscles when you get hit, I think that's how you interpreted it. the traps function as shock absorbers, a surge protector of sorts. A developed neck and traps help lessen the shock of a blow to the head. I'll find some valid medical documents to back that up, but in the meantime, I pulled this off of a shootfighting site:
"Neck muscle strength helps prevent knockouts and cervical injury during chokes or neck crank submissions."

And I agree, losing a long post sucks!! That's happened to me several times :)

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass