Elbows just cut...

[wingchunIan]

I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.


http://youtu.be/rC5G1NRkdxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC5G1NRkdxE

[SimonM]

Depends on the guy, depends on the conditioning, but if you have trained it right an elbow is a very powerful close-range technique. There's plenty of evidence supporting that.

Also, even if most elbows did "just cut," has anybody tried to fight with an eye full of blood?

[GlennR]

I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.


Id disagree with your opinion of the elbow thrown here.

He's got great structure in it, rolling the right hip with a slightly downward motion, munoz is also walking forward at the time.
I think that shot puts nearly anyone down. AS you said, he was out before he hit the ground

IMO elbows are vastly underutilised and underrated in self defense, and from a WC POV we are often in that range so i its a big yes to elbows from me.

[Frost]

Lol I just knew when I clicked on the thread that would be the fight posted lol
Thai elbows are designed to cut primarily hence slashing with the elbow point, Munoz managed to both duck into and almost run onto that shot, doesn’t happen very often hence I knew that would be the fight you were posting!
Are elbows a good weapon? They can be especially if the opponent is pinned and cant absorb the strike by moving backwards, hence elbows on the floor do much more damage than elbows standing, elbows against the cage or against a wall do much more damage than those in the open, but they are still a good weapon to use in clos just maybe not a finishing weapon
Check these kids out at the 4.40 minute mark for some very good elbows which still are absorbed very well because there are done in the open
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF71BKbSX_o&feature=player_embedded#!

[GlennR]

I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.


http://youtu.be/rC5G1NRkdxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC5G1NRkdxE

Oh, and good topic by the way..... lets see how many people have some input

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure Elbows cut, especially IF you throw them that way ( which most do) but they can also smash ( in karate they fall under the category of "ate-waza" smashing techniques), anyone that has ever sunk in a hard elbow to the body knows its effects.
Because of the tendency for the elbow to be "overly" circular and aimed at the face, it tends to get more cuts than KO's and when it does, people tend to view it as a "forearm smash" as opposed to an elbow.
We all remember Pat Smith destroying "Ninja Bob" in UFC 2 ( I think it was 2) with elbows from the mount.
And elbow KO's happen frequently in MT.

[wingchunIan]

Just for clarity folks, I'm a huge fan of elbows and a 100% believer in their ability to produce KOs. Previous discussions on here though have thrown up some opposite views from folks who clearly see elbows as an inferior weapon designed only to cut, so I was interested in their opinions of this clip.

[Frost]

Just for clarity folks, I'm a huge fan of elbows and a 100% believer in their ability to produce KOs. Previous discussions on here though have thrown up some opposite views from folks who clearly see elbows as an inferior weapon designed only to cut, so I was interested in their opinions of this clip.

Its not that they are inferior or superior, its a case of horses for courses and when and where you chose to use them, elbows are rotational and if you miss you risk giving up your back (as royce found out when throwing them at matt hughes) personally i like to thorw forearms and punch them in when doing stand up, as i was taught in (hung gar lol)

I think they work better on the ground or up against a solid object, you see much more KO's in MMA when they are thrown on the ground, or against the cage wall than out in the open, but at least when thrwon out in the open you have less change of breaking them as you do your figners, pick your weapon according to personal preference i suppose

[ShaolinDan]

Are elbows a good weapon? They can be especially if the opponent is pinned and cant absorb the strike by moving backwards, hence elbows on the floor do much more damage than elbows standing, elbows against the cage or against a wall do much more damage than those in the open, but they are still a good weapon to use in clos just maybe not a finishing weapon


same could be said for any striking though.

I don't read much in the WC forum, so this is the first I've heard of elbows being just for cutting. This is just silly. Like saying punches are just for pushing.

[Frost]

same could be said for any striking though.

I don't read much in the WC forum, so this is the first I've heard of elbows being just for cutting. This is just silly. Like saying punches are just for pushing.

Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
In MMA you tend to see Thai style elbows and thoase are designed to cut, hence the bony bit is shown, can other elbows be thrown and can they be knockout weapsons, yes but like I said horses for courses and yes the same can be said for all strikes:
all strikes have their benefits and weaknesses, hooks are very powerful but if you miss hard to reset, straight punches easier to recover from but normally easier to see coming, jabs are faster than crosses but not as powerful so on and so on right tool for the right occasion and all that
and get out of this forum whilst you can lol

[jmd161]

Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
In MMA you tend to see Thai style elbows and thoase are designed to cut, hence the bony bit is shown, can other elbows be thrown and can they be knockout weapsons, yes but like I said horses for courses and yes the same can be said for all strikes:
all strikes have their benefits and weaknesses, hooks are very powerful but if you miss hard to reset, straight punches easier to recover from but normally easier to see coming, jabs are faster than crosses but not as powerful so on and so on right tool for the right occasion and all that
and get out of this forum whilst you can lol

+1 this!

good points!

[wingchunIan]

Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.

The elbow strikes in Wing Chun should (according to what I have been taught / teach) be thrown with the same penetrating "inch" force as the punches and target the jic seen in the same way.

[Vajramusti]

I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.


http://youtu.be/rC5G1NRkdxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC5G1NRkdxE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No debate from me. Elbows are important things in the wing chun arsenal.

[LoneTiger108]

Elbows elbows... we love our elbows in the UK!

A martial cousin of mine showing a short 8 elbow set taught to him by Sifu Joseph Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NoskhOS730

They do far more than cut sometimes :cool:

[jmd161]

Elbows elbows... we love our elbows in the UK!

A martial cousin of mine showing a short 8 elbow set taught to him by Sifu Joseph Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NoskhOS730

They do far more than cut sometimes :cool:


We have similar sets... but, we stress not leaving the pit of the under arm exposed like in the video! We have techniques we train to attack that particular area when exposed....

[GlennR]

Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
In MMA you tend to see Thai style elbows and thoase are designed to cut, hence the bony bit is shown, can other elbows be thrown and can they be knockout weapsons, yes but like I said horses for courses and yes the same can be said for all strikes:
all strikes have their benefits and weaknesses, hooks are very powerful but if you miss hard to reset, straight punches easier to recover from but normally easier to see coming, jabs are faster than crosses but not as powerful so on and so on right tool for the right occasion and all that
and get out of this forum whilst you can lol

Haha, youre addicted arent you! ;)

Id add that elbows are all about timing which tht video highlights

[imperialtaichi]

In KL22 elbows are not emphasised for beginners, but one of our favourite tools for seniors.

Why? If you are close enough to strike someone with your elbow, you are also close enough to get hit by the opponent's elbow. So until one is proficient in that range, and in handling incoming elbows, best to keep the elbows to opportunistic only.

[EternalSpring]

In KL22 elbows are not emphasised for beginners, but one of our favourite tools for seniors.

Why? If you are close enough to strike someone with your elbow, you are also close enough to get hit by the opponent's elbow. So until one is proficient in that range, and in handling incoming elbows, best to keep the elbows to opportunistic only.

This is also similar to how I'm taught as well. Basically, we're told that the elbows are like having two extra hands, so before using the two extra hands, one must be proficient with his two natural hands first.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is also similar to how I'm taught as well. Basically, we're told that the elbows are like having two extra hands, so before using the two extra hands, one must be proficient with his two natural hands first.

This is really the truth of it. Elbows are weapons of oppertunity that come in handy in an emergency. Backwards when you can not turn quickly enough to defend from behind, and if you are holding someone or being held by them. The elbows can strike when the hands can't. However, they are pitifully deficient as a primary weapon. An elbow weapon is only as long as the upper arm. That might be a little more than a foot on an average person, and you can not put your best power behind it. An elbow can hurt, there is no doubt, but if you can not make it work as a primary weapon it falls short. In a fight would you use only your elbows? Not hardly, as the fight would not last long. Elbows fall into the same catagory as the bong sao. It is only for when you haven't a better weapon or defense.

[nasmedicine]

We LOVE elbows where I currently train. :)

[wingchunIan]

This is really the truth of it. Elbows are weapons of oppertunity that come in handy in an emergency. Backwards when you can not turn quickly enough to defend from behind, and if you are holding someone or being held by them. The elbows can strike when the hands can't. However, they are pitifully deficient as a primary weapon. An elbow weapon is only as long as the upper arm. That might be a little more than a foot on an average person, and you can not put your best power behind it. An elbow can hurt, there is no doubt, but if you can not make it work as a primary weapon it falls short. In a fight would you use only your elbows? Not hardly, as the fight would not last long. Elbows fall into the same catagory as the bong sao. It is only for when you haven't a better weapon or defense.

Think its fair to say we have entirely opposite views of elbows. IMHO if you can't put your power behind your elbow then you need to train them more or find someone who can teach you to use them properly. Your argument of would you only use elbows is also mute - would you only use punches? only kicks? The "technique" used depends upon the range, the target presented and the position of you to the opponent. Elbows are extremely difficult to see coming and most people don't expect them, they strike with an area that is exceptionally strong and difficult to damage and as there are less joints in the path of force there is a greater connection to the body mass.

[LoneTiger108]

Elbows are weapons of oppertunity that come in handy in an emergency.

I sense a little 'Biu Jii is for recovery' idea? But in all honesty if that is your impression of the elbows and how they are 'used' then you may only have half the picture IMHO.


If you are close enough to strike someone with your elbow, you are also close enough to get hit by the opponent's elbow.

Same can be said for feet & hands John so what makes the elbows 'more advanced'?

Yes, the elbows are a close-quarters weapon, but our whole system is based on close-quarters (apparently!) and now we start to talk of such ranges people think this is advanced or emergency stuff or whatever.

The whole system is an advanced system so in that sense I understand but we should all be comfortable working in very close proximity to an opponent and know exactly when to distinguish between defence and attack methods.

If you haven't drilled your elbows through the wallbag at least then I understand, but c'mon...

[imperialtaichi]

Same can be said for feet & hands John so what makes the elbows 'more advanced'?

Learn to walk, before learning to run. Beginners should learn to manage with his hands before learning to manage elbows.

[LoneTiger108]

Learn to walk, before learning to run. Beginners should learn to manage with his hands before learning to manage elbows.

I will disagree. I understand if you are talking of 'attacking' ;) but in a general sense a beginner must be aware of his body and structure, and so in SLT we learn about placement of the upper arm to the elbow FIRST (the forearms and hands have no intent)

This for me is Wing Chun 101 but you obviously have different ideas being from a Kulo perspective, which is still cool.

[GlennR]

I sense a little 'Biu Jii is for recovery' idea? But in all honesty if that is your impression of the elbows and how they are 'used' then you may only have half the picture IMHO.


Maybe he makes up for this "lack of the whole picture" by being better at fists distance than you.


Same can be said for feet & hands John so what makes the elbows 'more advanced'?

Yes, the elbows are a close-quarters weapon, but our whole system is based on close-quarters (apparently!) and now we start to talk of such ranges people think this is advanced or emergency stuff or whatever.


Problem with elbows is that its a risk. WC to me does not want to get into the true clinch/wrestling range (for long)and if you start to make them a main weapon youll only be putting yourself in this position more often. Look at the Thais, how often do they go from elbow-clinch and vice-versa?


The whole system is an advanced system so in that sense I understand but we should all be comfortable working in very close proximity to an opponent and know exactly when to distinguish between defence and attack methods.


Comfortable perhaps primary i think not.


If you haven't drilled your elbows through the wallbag at least then I understand, but c'mon..

And if you havent sparred using elbows against people proficient in that range (MT eg) ,at least then i understand..... ;)

[imperialtaichi]

I will disagree. I understand if you are talking of 'attacking' ;) but in a general sense a beginner must be aware of his body and structure, and so in SLT we learn about placement of the upper arm to the elbow FIRST (the forearms and hands have no intent)

Totally agree with this. Great point.

[imperialtaichi]

Problem with elbows is that its a risk. WC to me does not want to get into the true clinch/wrestling range (for long)and if you start to make them a main weapon youll only be putting yourself in this position more often. Look at the Thais, how often do they go from elbow-clinch and vice-versa?

Thank Glenn, you explain it better than I can. That's what I'm trying to say.

And at advance level, we have specific drills to practice using the elbow and dealing with the incoming elbow (elbows are much harder to stop when the whole body mass is behind it). The drills involve certain moves that the beginner needs to master before moving into elbow range, otherwise it's too difficult.

Cheers

[Lee Chiang Po]

Think its fair to say we have entirely opposite views of elbows. IMHO if you can't put your power behind your elbow then you need to train them more or find someone who can teach you to use them properly. Your argument of would you only use elbows is also mute - would you only use punches? only kicks? The "technique" used depends upon the range, the target presented and the position of you to the opponent. Elbows are extremely difficult to see coming and most people don't expect them, they strike with an area that is exceptionally strong and difficult to damage and as there are less joints in the path of force there is a greater connection to the body mass.

Actually, I do realize that you can be hurt with an elbow, but if you were to attempt to fight someone with only using the elbow you would not be on your feet long, which says it is an inferior weapon. It is indeed a weapon that is used when nothing else is available. I would never just use it because I could. I would use it if I had to. Most men's elbow is only a foot or so off the shoulder, making it an extremely short weapon. Like a pocket knife in a sword fight if you will. I have rolled off elbow strikes from large men and was none the worse for it. Had he struck me in the face with his fist I would have probably hit the floor right after it.
As for only kicks or only punches, I have taken large men with either or both, but an elbow would have required me to get in within a foot of his head or body to make it work. In that case it would be just as easy, or maybe easier to kick or punch. I know you can deliver far more impact kicking or punching.

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1179561]I sense a little 'Biu Jii is for recovery' idea? But in all honesty if that is your impression of the elbows and how they are 'used' then you may only have half the picture IMHO.



I have heard and read that recovery thing and never did understand what it meant. Bil Gee is not for recovery. Recovery from what exactly?
It is not really an impression of elbows, but that is the way I was taught about elbows. An elbow can be used when you are grabbed from behind, and if you are grappling with someone, which in both cases are extremely close range, and they just might get you out of a bad situation. However, just going in and trying to use an elbow in a square off fight is a very poor way of fighting. I have had a number of people try to hit me with an elbow, and it most always fell way short of connecting. In a few occasions I did get sucker punched with elbows, but it only got the fellow in trouble. I made it very difficult for him to breath because of it.

[wingchunIan]

Actually, I do realize that you can be hurt with an elbow, but if you were to attempt to fight someone with only using the elbow you would not be on your feet long, which says it is an inferior weapon. Absolute twaddle and a completely mute and stupid argument. Think about what you are saying. Its inferior because if you limit yourself to only elbows you most probably will lose a fight :(- well news flash, if you limit yourself to kicks only you'll probably lose as well so does that make them inferior?

It is indeed a weapon that is used when nothing else is available. I would never just use it because I could. I would use it if I had to. Most men's elbow is only a foot or so off the shoulder, making it an extremely short weapon. Like a pocket knife in a sword fight if you will. It may only be short but it is immensely powerful when you have been taught to throw them correctly. It is also very difficult to stop and for most people highly unexpected.

I have rolled off elbow strikes from large men and was none the worse for it. Had he struck me in the face with his fist I would have probably hit the floor right after it. This speaks volumes:rolleyes: - if the elbow had been thrown correctly to the jic seen you would have been unable to roll it off. Also interesting that you don't have the ability to roll with punches only elbows

As for only kicks or only punches, I have taken large men with either or both, what you do in your spare time is your own business and has no place on here:p

but an elbow would have required me to get in within a foot of his head or body to make it work. In that case it would be just as easy, or maybe easier to kick or punch.and when you're past punching range? or fighting someone who likes to stay in the pocket and trade?

I know you can deliver far more impact kicking or punching. nope you know no such thing - it is what you believe based upoon your own experience. It may be true for you but I know that myself personally and my kung fu brothers can deliver as much if not more power in elbow strikes as we do in punches

[wingchunIan]

Thank Glenn, you explain it better than I can. That's what I'm trying to say.

And at advance level, we have specific drills to practice using the elbow and dealing with the incoming elbow (elbows are much harder to stop when the whole body mass is behind it). The drills involve certain moves that the beginner needs to master before moving into elbow range, otherwise it's too difficult.

Cheers

Totally agree that fighting at elbow range is more difficult than at more extended ranges, whether that is to avoid grappling or to avoid opposing elbows. Its why elbows come later in training in most cases.

[LoneTiger108]

Problem with elbows is that its a risk. WC to me does not want to get into the true clinch/wrestling range (for long)and if you start to make them a main weapon youll only be putting yourself in this position more often. Look at the Thais, how often do they go from elbow-clinch and vice-versa?

So interesting to see how people respond to certain things. I know that the distance will close dramatically if I was targeting your head/body with my elbows and that is a main aim of closing that distance, or entering if you like. But who is saying that I will use my elbows in that way??

I have caught feet and elbowed the instep, punished a 'jabber' by elbowing the inside of his arms and in fact there are numerous ways of using the elbows that doesn't put you in any 'clinch' range at all (if that's your preferred term for close body fighting), The spedd of the elbow is faster than the hands when done correctly so can be utilized in many ways.

Why limit yourselves so much??? Haven't you heard of the simultaneous defence and attack methods of Wing Chun?? This is how we roll ;)

[GlennR]

So interesting to see how people respond to certain things. I know that the distance will close dramatically if I was targeting your head/body with my elbows and that is a main aim of closing that distance, or entering if you like. But who is saying that I will use my elbows in that way??

Fair enough


I have caught feet and elbowed the instep, punished a 'jabber' by elbowing the inside of his arms and in fact there are numerous ways of using the elbows that doesn't put you in any 'clinch' range at all (if that's your preferred term for close body fighting), The spedd of the elbow is faster than the hands when done correctly so can be utilized in many ways.

Fair enough again, must have been a slow jabber though.
Remember however that the thread was about elbows cutting (re hitting the head) but your point is taken
Having said that, anytime you use the elbow as opposed to the fist, regardless of what you are doing, you will be closer to the opponent. There is a risk


Why limit yourselves so much??? Haven't you heard of the simultaneous defence and attack methods of Wing Chun?? This is how we roll ;)

Why limit yourself to WC? ;)
Thats how i roll

[LoneTiger108]

Why limit yourself to WC? ;)
Thats how i roll

Fair enuff!

But I find Wing Chun by it's nature to be limitless, so I am happy being a one system man (and a one woman man for that matter lol!) ;)