Which of the following do you consider to be TMA?

[IronFist]

Inspired by a post in another thread where someone said TMA aren't useful for fighting, and someone countered and said Sanda and SJ are useful for fighting, and then someone said those aren't TMAs.

I'm curious which arts KFM thinks are TMAs.

Sorry for all the "and/or" options. KFM only allows a maximum of 10 poll choices so I had to combine some stuff :o

I'm curious to see if KFM thinks MT, SJ, Boxing, etc. are TMAs or if it's only the flowery ones performed against cooperative opponents.

[David Jamieson]

These are all traditional arts. :confused:

[Lucas]

all of the above.

[SimonM]

TKD stretches the boundaries of "traditional" pretty darn far.

[Lucas]

well, imo tkd is similar to cma in that respects. there is some cma that stretches that too. but there is some pretty old school hard core tkd out there.

[SimonM]

Oh, I'd agree with you that some CMA stretches the "traditional" definition.

So does Judo to a lesser degree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

tra·di·tion
   [truh-dish-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2.
something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3.
a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4.
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5.
a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

[Lucas]

i think in terms of the definition of 'traditional' in connection to martial arts there needs to be a more clear distinction. such as;

1. a martial tradition maintaining the qualities of martial application to real combat scenarios. both sport and self defense.

2. a martial tradition that does not maintain standard qualities of martial application, though is derived from such traditions originally, however has developed its own route of tradition through practice and passing these practices on. ie; non combat oriented martial practices.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think in terms of the definition of 'traditional' in connection to martial arts there needs to be a more clear distinction. such as;

1. a martial tradition maintaining the qualities of martial application to real combat scenarios. both sport and self defense.

2. a martial tradition that does not maintain standard qualities of martial application, though is derived from such traditions originally, however has developed its own route of tradition through practice and passing these practices on. ie; non combat oriented martial practices.

Once a MA has been around long enough to HAVE a tradition it is, by definition, a traditional MA.
Some systems, like western wrestling are older than the vast majority of T(asian)MA.
All those systems are TMA in the truest since of the words.
Now, what can truly be debated is how many of those TMA have KEPT the tradition that give rise to them, ie: the tradition (typically) of combat effectiveness.

Lets look at a typical example that we don't even have to name:
MA practioner ( perhaps master already) Wong knows a MA ( perhaps more than 1 which was typiclaly the case), he is defeated in combat by another MA ( or perhaps during his training sees that his MA is "missing something). He comits himself to further study AND training to defeat said master/style ( or fill in the missing pieces) as such he personal MA bases begins to change and evolve to better meet the demands he must face.
He pressure tests this new way of fighting by fighting against other practioners of OTHER MA, sometimes in training (friendly matches) sometimes in duels and other times in self-protection or the protection of others.
The system is born, a system based on an existing core, modified and evolved UNDER PRESSURE to deal with the "fighting issues" of His time.

What is the tradition of THAT art?

[SimonM]

I actually wrote an article for Kung Fu Magazine on that very issue. You can find the back issue here. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=913)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I actually wrote an article for Kung Fu Magazine on that very issue. You can find the back issue here. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=913)

Really?
Cool, share man-***** !

[Lucas]

What is the tradition of THAT art?

fighting. hence my approach to provide a distinction between styles that fight, and styles that dont. ie the commonly known; modern wushu, some styles of aikido, etc.


in my opinion there are traditional combat martial arts, and then there are traditional performance martial arts. very different breeds.

the tricky thing is some schools cater to both. thats where it gets tricky.

sifu teaches both modern traditional contemporary longfist performance, and then he also teaches traditional longfist combat kungfu. student 1 learns performance, and student 2 learns combat, student 3 learns both.

all 3 students study traditional longfist, but only 2 of them study traditional combat martial arts. and only 2 of them study traditional performance kungfu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

fighting. hence my approach to provide a distinction between styles that fight, and styles that dont. ie the commonly known; modern wushu, some styles of aikido, etc.


in my opinion there are traditional combat martial arts, and then there are traditional performance martial arts. very different breeds.

the tricky thing is some schools cater to both. thats where it gets tricky.

sifu teaches both modern traditional contemporary longfist performance, and then he also teaches traditional longfist combat kungfu. student 1 learns performance, and student 2 learns combat, student 3 learns both.

all 3 students study traditional longfist, but only 2 of them study traditional combat martial arts. and only 2 of them study traditional performance kungfu.

Indeed, well put.
What bothers me the most is NOT the systems that have tradition of performance or health as their PRIMARY focus ( Taiji for example) and have soem that use it in a combat way ( in keeping with its original tradition), it is the systems that were forged under fire and NEVER gave up the tradition, never had it replaced or altered, indeed they pride themselves on that tradition of fighting and testing BUT they don't do it anymore !

That is what gets on my knickers.
:p

[Lucas]

That is what gets on my knickers.
:p

i think it gets on all our knickers lol

[Raipizo]

I didn't vote tkd or boxing, they are recently new and don't qualify as traditional to me.

[SPJ]

Inspired by a post in another thread where someone said TMA aren't useful for fighting, and someone countered and said Sanda and SJ are useful for fighting, and then someone said those aren't TMAs.

I'm curious which arts KFM thinks are TMAs.

Sorry for all the "and/or" options. KFM only allows a maximum of 10 poll choices so I had to combine some stuff :o

I'm curious to see if KFM thinks MT, SJ, Boxing, etc. are TMAs or if it's only the flowery ones performed against cooperative opponents.

It does not matter which school or discipline you start or get good at.

Just keep going and build on whatever you have.

I started with shuai jiao and then tan tui.

Make them work for you.

Or learn something else, if that school/discipline did not work out for you.

:)

[Ben Gash]

I didn't vote tkd or boxing, they are recently new and don't qualify as traditional to me.

You do realize that boxing is over 400 years old? Even in it's current format it's older than Judo or Karate.

[Lucas]

well even tkd has old roots. the name tkd is really just a new name put to a developed format based on old styles whether you believe its derived largely from subbak or karate, doesnt really matter. its just a new name on old tradition arts. and at this point has definately defined its own tradition.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well even tkd has old roots. the name tkd is really just a new name put to a developed format based on old styles whether you believe its derived largely from subbak or karate, doesnt really matter. its just a new name on old tradition arts. and at this point has definately defined its own tradition.

TKD was basically modified Shotokan BUT to say it isn't traditional is silly since it has a tradition.
I think that people associate tradition with 100's of years or some silliness like that.
The two oldest MA are boxing and wrestling.
But, by the very definition of the word, the moment a MA has a tradition to "pass down" it is traditional.
TKD is from the 50's (older if you take into account the traditions it was based one), that is long enough to be a TMA.

[Lucas]

in your experience with tkd do a lot of tkd people cross train hapkido, or are they generally exclusive?

[sanjuro_ronin]

in your experience with tkd do a lot of tkd people cross train hapkido, or are they generally exclusive?

Nope, not unless they are korean;)
Seriously though, no, but many old school TKD guys had some hapkido.
Hapkido is one f'ed up art, the limited time I did it I hated every moment of it.
Just thinking about it makes my wrists scream in pain:mad:

[SimonM]

My experience with hapkido has been a lot of "too deadly for the ring" types. Can't comment on legitimacy since I've never trained in or fought against it. Can you elucidate SR?

[sanjuro_ronin]

My experience with hapkido has been a lot of "too deadly for the ring" types. Can't comment on legitimacy since I've never trained in or fought against it. Can you elucidate SR?

My hapkido guy was old school, hard contact, minimal padding and believed that the best way to use wrist locks (a mainstay of hapkido) was to do them fast, hard and after you were beaten to a pulp !!
I have small wrists and that **** hurt like hell !
It was one of those schools located in a basement, smelled like feet and blood stains on the carpet and hardwood floors.
I don't recall one class where someone was NOT hurt.
Hapkido has no forms and while there is some "air work" the vast majority was partner and contact work.

[IronFist]

I don't recall one class where someone was NOT hurt.

I hate schools like that.

I went to a Hapkido McDojo for a few weeks back in the day. Lots of kicking pads. There was a punching bag but I think I was the only one who ever used it. I don't recall any sparing, but we did this one shoulder throw over and over and over and over one class period and ever since my shoulder has made a "fffft" type noise when I move it a certain way. This was 13 or 14 years ago.

btw, the shoulder throw was against a cooperative opponent.

I remember one day in the Hapkido McDojo we were doing some qi breathing thing and the instructor (this older Korean guy) had me lay down and breath a certain way. He was going to pick up like a "light as a feather, stiff as a board" type of thing and balance me on this chair. As soon as he tried to pick me up, my body folded in half and it didn't work. I guess I wasn't doing it right. lol.

Oh, one thing TMAs have going for them (and I will post this in my TMA thread, too) is the escapes from wrist grabs and stuff. Not the whole complex 10 hit combo escape, but simply learning how to twist/move your wrist to escape. That was one thing we actually did train against (somewhat) resisting opponents, both in Isshinryu karate when I was young, and the Hapkido McDojo when I was 17.

[Jimbo]

I voted all of them.

As mentioned, 'traditional' doesn't have to mean hundreds of years old. Funny enough, when many people think of 'traditional' MA's, the first image is something like Shotokan. It has it's traditions and is therefore traditional, but only evolved to its modern characteristics (and named Shotokan) from about 1935. It was Funakoshi's son who modified the movements to be larger/longer, and incorporated the high kicks, etc.

BJJ is a traditional art, it has its own traditions. Not to mention it's a branch of Japanese judo/jujutsu. Around since the 1920s. Even Rickson Gracie has stated that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is a Japanese MA.

CLF is traditional, and although it's based on older systems (obviously), it only began its modern history as CLF in 1836, making it a relatively recent development in CMA.

Of course, the various forms of wrestling are the oldest of traditional MA's.

[Raipizo]

I was thinking literally just western boxing. I know other forms are older but I believe the westernized version is younger. And I was thinking strictly tkd in the newer Korean sport tkd sense obviously it has roots everything does.

[SimonM]

Even modern western boxing goes back to the 1700s at least.

[Raipizo]

Even modern western boxing goes back to the 1700s at least.

Well I'll be ****ed

[kuniggety]

Boxing has been quite popular in Europe for some time. You can find a number of actual boxing manuals dating in the 1800s but I'm sure some scholars know of some older.

[LivingArt]

All of these arts are traditional to their practitioners. Who's to decide how many years defines an acceptable "tradition" ? None of us here have defined or developed our arts from the beginning, we simply learn and understand them to the best of our abilities.

I believe all of these arts are "traditional" martial arts, but let us not forget that "tradition" is subjective. Subjective to ones culture, preference, and upbringing.

[wenshu]

Even modern western boxing goes back to the 1700s at least.


Boxing has been quite popular in Europe for some time. You can find a number of actual boxing manuals dating in the 1800s but I'm sure some scholars know of some older.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63529