Single Leg Posting, Hanging Leg, YGKYM and the No Shadow Kick

[Happy Tiger]

I am interested in the concept of the 'no shadow kick' Most often, it seems, it is tied into the hanging leg method and single leg post. True enough, but I have seen (and felt) no shadow kick from fair and equal YGKYM. No telegraph, no displacement of shoulder line or centre. Sigong Tsui Sheung Tin said GM Ip Man could NSK from either double weight or single weight position. Either leg. Wow

[Vajramusti]

I am interested in the concept of the 'no shadow kick' Most often, it seems, it is tied into the hanging leg method and single leg post. True enough, but I have seen (and felt) no shadow kick from fair and equal YGKYM. No telegraph, no displacement of shoulder line or centre. Sigong Tsui Sheung Tin said GM Ip Man could NSK from either double weight or single weight position. Either leg. Wow

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so can the good people in IM wing chun
IM showed the way.

[nasmedicine]

Check out the book, "The Ip Man Question", it had some very good incite on Ip Man and kicking.

[k gledhill]

I have had great results using VT kicks in fights. Non telegraphic action makes it very hard to read.

[imperialtaichi]

All initial strikes should be no shadow.

[Vajramusti]

All initial strikes should be no shadow.
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yup. wc101

[MOSHE]

can you explain to me ,how you can success to hide a spontaneous kick ,if you are not full time 100 % back leg ?

there is obviously at one point ,one transition from one stance to another ,so how do you organise ? :confused:

[GlennR]

can you explain to me ,how you can success to hide a spontaneous kick ,if you are not full time 100 % back leg ?

Practice ;)


there is obviously at one point ,one transition from one stance to another ,so how do you organise ? :confused:


Well ive done a weighted version of WC like yours and ive done TST (neutral weight) as well.
To me, its not just about the weight, but the YGKM as well. Keep in mind this stance varies from lineage to lineage and youll find that someone that can do the kick as discussed comes from a taller stance at about shoulder width. TST is a great example of this. It can be done
Im guessing youll have more abducted stance, but lower which makes it harder to do.
Having said that, the back weighted stance allows you to shoot multiple kicks (of the same leg) a lot easier.... i use this in MT to a degree (though stand a lot taller)

[MOSHE]

but shifting from once stance to another one ,you have a momentum

and if its not your basic stance ,what you can perform with the hand regarding one stance
you will loose it with the other stance

concerning mine ,i can adjust tall or lower (without problem for kicking) ,just bending more my back leg

the goal is to be equal regarding what to perform for both legs and arms in any kind of situation

in other words ,two arms and one leg are always in motion together,allowing attacks without having our own arms attack killing our potential kick or the opposite

[Vajramusti]

Practice ;)



Well ive done a weighted version of WC like yours and ive done TST (neutral weight) as well.
To me, its not just about the weight, but the YGKM as well. Keep in mind this stance varies from lineage to lineage and youll find that someone that can do the kick as discussed comes from a taller stance at about shoulder width. TST is a great example of this. It can be done
Im guessing youll have more abducted stance, but lower which makes it harder to do.
Having said that, the back weighted stance allows you to shoot multiple kicks (of the same leg) a lot easier.... i use this in MT to a degree (though stand a lot taller)
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Correct. You can kick with either leg without telegraphing. The details of the stance is the key.
You can shift or not shift---depends on context in applications.

Ng Chan's back leg stance-I don't do. Leung Shun also did that- hence Leung Ting.

[MOSHE]

the difference is still that you losing one thin moment when you free the leg kicking from the weight on it to be re balance to the other one

so thats not what i can call 100 % no telegraphic

and thats a physical law

if in this case you dont re balance ,you cannot really lift the leg

100% back leg , problem solved

[Vajramusti]

the difference is still that you losing one thin moment when you free the leg kicking from the weight on it to be re balance to the other one

so thats not what i can call 100 % no telegraphic

and thats a physical law

if in this case you dont re balance ,you cannot really lift the leg

100% back leg , problem solved
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Hi Moshe-I understand your view but our assumptions are different. If your tail to head structure and the back are straight and you are evenly balanced on ALL sides right/left, front/back, up/down
and the knees NOT deeply bent, you can move fast without telegraphing. Back weighting can make the front leg fast-but not the back leg. Also back leg stance makes one vulnerable to competent grapplers coming in low. If someone is back weighted you give important advance information that if you kick it will be your front leg. Even if the front leg is fast-it can be jammed or caught.

[Happy Tiger]

This is getting good. I'm hoping to get into footwork and no shadow kicking.
For me, the cinnamon test is from YGKYM; straight front kick...back to line. No...Shadow. Almost defies gravity.

[MOSHE]

When you want to kick with the back
Leg even from a neutral stance or back leg full support
You are in the same situation , having to transfer forward the weight support
Like walking

[Happy Tiger]

When you want to kick with the back
Leg even from a neutral stance or back leg full support
You are in the same situation , having to transfer forwar the weight support
Like walking
Good question...where does the power come from?? To remain still one must absorb collecting energies...and pan out smooth and neutral...as u optimise the attack

[Happy Tiger]

This is getting good. I'm hoping to get into footwork and no shadow kicking.
For me, the cinnamon test is from YGKYM; straight front kick...back to line. No...Shadow. Almost defies gravity.
The Quick Draw kick of Ving Tsun

[imperialtaichi]

The Quick Draw kick of Ving Tsun

Apart from being fast and non-telegraphing, another attribute is to have it unpredictable, and to come in at angles hard for the opponent to see.

[GlennR]

the difference is still that you losing one thin moment when you free the leg kicking from the weight on it to be re balance to the other one

so thats not what i can call 100 % no telegraphic

and thats a physical law

if in this case you dont re balance ,you cannot really lift the leg

100% back leg , problem solved

Cant argue with any of the logic there, but with practice, for all intensive purposes, it can be done.

Having said that, neither of the legs are as free or non-telegraphic as the front foot in a 100% rear weighted leg, but, how free is your back leg??

[wingchunIan]

I struggle with the concept of always being equally weighted or always being 100% rear weighted. Wing Chun for me should be a mixture of both depending upon the situation. If I'm driving in to an opponent or moving backwards I weight the rear leg to keep my head back, make room for my hands, make the lead leg less vulnerable etc, however the rest of the time I will be neutral or if turning / shifting will be weighted to one side or the other.
As far as the shadow less kick is concerned I think people are taking it a little bit too literally. The upper body should be trained not to reveal the intention of the lower body but the fact that the kick is aimed low, at a distance closer than most other system kicks, has no chambering and is usually performed in conjunction with hand movement means that it is very difficult for an opponent to detect.

[MOSHE]

Cant argue with any of the logic there, but with practice, for all intensive purposes, it can be done.

Having said that, neither of the legs are as free or non-telegraphic as the front foot in a 100% rear weighted leg, but, how free is your back leg??

When you want to kick with the back
Leg even from a neutral stance or back leg full support
You are in the same situation , having to transfer forward the weight support
Like walking

[MOSHE]

I struggle with the concept of always being equally weighted or always being 100% rear weighted. Wing Chun for me should be a mixture of both depending upon the situation. If I'm driving in to an opponent or moving backwards I weight the rear leg to keep my head back, make room for my hands, make the lead leg less vulnerable etc, however the rest of the time I will be neutral or if turning / shifting will be weighted to one side or the other.
As far as the shadow less kick is concerned I think people are taking it a little bit too literally. The upper body should be trained not to reveal the intention of the lower body but the fact that the kick is aimed low, at a distance closer than most other system kicks, has no chambering and is usually performed in conjunction with hand movement means that it is very difficult for an opponent to detect.

there no mixture in the structure of wing chun concerning the basic concept

if you mix ,its cannot be called anymore wc and this will have distortion effects in other areas

[GlennR]

When you want to kick with the back
Leg even from a neutral stance or back leg full support
You are in the same situation , having to transfer forward the weight support
Like walking

Thats my point.

Using the 100% rear weighted means you effectively only have one "shadowless kick"

Ergo the reason not to do it

[GlennR]

I struggle with the concept of always being equally weighted or always being 100% rear weighted. Wing Chun for me should be a mixture of both depending upon the situation. If I'm driving in to an opponent or moving backwards I weight the rear leg to keep my head back, make room for my hands, make the lead leg less vulnerable etc, however the rest of the time I will be neutral or if turning / shifting will be weighted to one side or the other.
As far as the shadow less kick is concerned I think people are taking it a little bit too literally. The upper body should be trained not to reveal the intention of the lower body but the fact that the kick is aimed low, at a distance closer than most other system kicks, has no chambering and is usually performed in conjunction with hand movement means that it is very difficult for an opponent to detect.

Personally, i prefer a little bit of weight on the back leg be i WCing or MTing. I like how it gives me that free front leg in both attack and defense and it also allows for good weight transfer going forward in my strikes.

But, i dont adhere to it religiously and change when the occasion arises

[MOSHE]

Thats my point.

Using the 100% rear weighted means you effectively only have one "shadowless kick"

Ergo the reason not to do it

Don't seems logic because neutral or 70/30 means no leg totally free ?

Better one than none ?

In fact , if I refer to other lineages , I think the choice of the stance is done as well regarding the advantage offered to the ability of the hands more than the ability of the kicks

Sum nung you wrote about .is he the one who have an ancestor from Peru?

[GlennR]

Don't seems logic because neutral or 70/30 means no leg totally free ?

Well i can only say that when i spar, most people say they have trouble picking up my front leg and im about 60/40... it works and importantly its a very hard kick


Better one than none ?


Sure, but i dont have that problem


In fact , if I refer to other lineages , I think the choice of the stance is done as well regarding the advantage offered to the ability of the hands more than the ability of the kicks

Sorry, not to sure what you mean here??? I think its a translation problem

[MOSHE]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1180548]



Sorry, not to sure what you mean here??? I think its a translation problem[/

For other lineages
the choice of the stance is done more regarding the ability of the hands rather than the ability of the kicks

[Paddington]

The upper body should be trained not to reveal the intention of the lower body but the fact that the kick is aimed low, at a distance closer than most other system kicks, has no chambering and is usually performed in conjunction with hand movement means that it is very difficult for an opponent to detect.

Chum kui and the section containing the first kick is an ideal way to train not to telegraph. The Lan sau position can be used to identify telegraphed body movement, as even the smallest movement in the shoulders or general raising of the stance from the supporting leg, is exaggerated by the lan sau shape. Like the movement of a record being played, movement close to the edge is easier to identify than at the center. By focusing on keeping the lan sau still one can train to not telegraph the kick.

Granted, this is to train but one kind of kick. Anyone else have some training tips?

[Vajramusti]

http://luimingfai.wix.com/vingtsun

You might want to look at Lui Ming Fai- a Ho Kam Ming protege
blocking a kick with his own. Lui is balanced equally on both legs
and not leaning back.Weight is NOT on the back leg.

I think this has to be shown rather than just depending on emails
and posts.

[MOSHE]

http://luimingfai.wix.com/vingtsun

You might want to look at Lui Ming Fai- a Ho Kam Ming protege
blocking a kick with his own. Lui is balanced equally on both legs
and not leaning back.Weight is NOT on the back leg.

I think this has to be shown rather than just depending on emails
and posts.


Hi Joy

I looked at it , so everybody is doing the same from a facing stance

But when I looked his stepping pressuring another guy, the spread between his legs , and the balance of his weight front and back leg don't indicate me an easy non telegraphic kick !

[Vajramusti]

Hi Joy

I looked at it , so everybody is doing the same from a facing stance

But when I looked his stepping pressuring another guy, the spread between his legs , and the balance of his weight front and back leg don't indicate me an easy non telegraphic kick !
--------------------------------------------------------------------

We see different things...it's ok.

Pointless to argue much. The issues involve details of relationships to gravity.
Moshe.

Do you have any visible example of Ng Chan's, or your sifu's or your back leg kick.? Thanks.

[LoneTiger108]

The upper body should be trained not to reveal the intention of the lower body but the fact that the kick is aimed low, at a distance closer than most other system kicks, has no chambering and is usually performed in conjunction with hand movement means that it is very difficult for an opponent to detect.

Superb IMHO you hit the nail right on the head here.

I also think there may be too many people who misunderstand what 'shadowless' means too because I was taught that it isn't so much about 'hiding detectable' signs that you are about to kick, it was all about 'deception' and the simple fact that when I kick, my aim is for the movement to be so fast that it IS shadowless and the same really applies to our hands and weaponry too ;)

That, FME, is pretty difficult :D

[wingchunIan]

there no mixture in the structure of wing chun concerning the basic concept

if you mix ,its cannot be called anymore wc and this will have distortion effects in other areas

Moshe, do you hop down the street on one leg? do you do YJKYM at all? how about saam bok ma? (or didn't you get as far as the knives yet). Wing Chun has both equal weighted footwork and differentially weighted footwork. There are differences in approach across the various lineages and whilst we might debate the pros and cons of each, or the origin of any difference in approach most of us refrain from the childish - if you don't do it my way then its not wing chun statements. Your lack of understanding is amazing and is possibly only surpassed by your arrogance in your belief that you have the "one true system" of Wing Chun.

[MOSHE]

Moshe, do you hop down the street on one leg? do you do YJKYM at all? how about saam bok ma? (or didn't you get as far as the knives yet). Wing Chun has both equal weighted footwork and differentially weighted footwork. There are differences in approach across the various lineages and whilst we might debate the pros and cons of each, or the origin of any difference in approach most of us refrain from the childish - if you don't do it my way then its not wing chun statements. Your lack of understanding is amazing and is possibly only surpassed by your arrogance in your belief that you have the "one true system" of Wing Chun.

Too bad you take it this way , I just share bite of what I know and you are simply missunderstooding the serious of what I received which let no place for fantasy
That's no arrogance , just a not compromised way
To keep things like I received without disgression
Focus more about the logic I try to put forward than my writing style

[LoneTiger108]

To keep things like I received without disgression

This is a common thing in Chinese Martial Arts. "Teaching how I was taught" would not get me very far at all because the majority of people I have met over the years simply could not handle the way I was taught!! And so, we change things to suit our needs. It's what makes us human.

So, you also teach in Chinese?

[MOSHE]

This is a common thing in Chinese Martial Arts. "Teaching how I was taught" would not get me very far at all because the majority of people I have met over the years simply could not handle the way I was taught!! And so, we change things to suit our needs. It's what makes us human.

So, you also teach in Chinese?

It's look like

[Happy Tiger]

Does internal work/ development figure in to this subject?In it's purest sense, is this an 'internal' skill?

[imperialtaichi]

During fighting/sparring I'm always moving/stepping anyway. Never have to worry about kicking while 50/50 or 70/30 or even 100/0 anyway.

[GlennR]

Superb IMHO you hit the nail right on the head here.

I also think there may be too many people who misunderstand what 'shadowless' means too because I was taught that it isn't so much about 'hiding detectable' signs that you are about to kick, it was all about 'deception' and the simple fact that when I kick, my aim is for the movement to be so fast that it IS shadowless and the same really applies to our hands and weaponry too ;)

That, FME, is pretty difficult :D

Good point, its the deception that is the key.

[GlennR]

Too bad you take it this way , I just share bite of what I know and you are simply missunderstooding the serious of what I received which let no place for fantasy
That's no arrogance , just a not compromised way
To keep things like I received without disgression
Focus more about the logic I try to put forward than my writing style

Your logic is fine Moshe, but so are the other views.

Wing Chun is styles within a style, there the rear weighted guys (like you), the 50/50 guys, wide stance, narrow goat stance, elbows in, elbows out.... gee the fundamentals of the punch even changes between lineages/styles

Its just like boxing, styles within a style, bobbers & weavers, upright straight punching stylists, head on centre, head to one side..... some even weight the rear foot (the old timers in particular)

Only difference is that they sort it in the ring and WCers sort it on a forum ;)

[Happy Tiger]

So are we coming to the idea that NSK is part structure and part distraction\ deception? How does this apply when the bridge is connected?

[Happy Tiger]

I'm here to tell ya, no shadow kicking is possible from double weight. I'm interested in the 'T' step and it's role in abedextarity of kicking and deployment of NSK.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Trying to maintain a certain percentage of your weight on a particular foot in a confrontation is not happening. You will be moving fast and furious, so the percentage of weight will be running up and down from side to side faster than you can keep up with it. If you shift your weight it tells the opponent to move back or side step because a foot is just about to come his way. The best way to deal with this is to just walk about kicking from just about every foot position. Your kick is going to come up and make contact so fast it will not even make a shadow anyway, and it will be right back on the ground again. You don't always have to kill him with every kick anyway, and any kick will cause pain or disrupt his focus, which is most times what the purpose of the kick is.
As a young man I did a lot of footwork training, sometimes to music even. I would practice moving across a room or the yard as quickly as possible and still maintain my stance somewhat as good as possible, and I always tried to end up in a position to throw a powerful punch or kick. I would sometimes just scoot about the yard kicking. I can kick as well with my weight evenly distributed between my legs, and I can kick as well with my weight on the front or lead foot. The kick shoots out as I am changing to a rear foot bracing move.
It is practice that makes us perfect.

[wingchunIan]

So are we coming to the idea that NSK is part structure and part distraction\ deception? How does this apply when the bridge is connected?

Same applies. Move the lower body independant of the upper body so as not to telegraph the kick and distract with the hands, jut, lap, gum, can all be applied from contact and at least one hand is normally free to hit.

[wingchunIan]

Too bad you take it this way , I just share bite of what I know and you are simply missunderstooding the serious of what I received which let no place for fantasy
That's no arrogance , just a not compromised way
To keep things like I received without disgression
Focus more about the logic I try to put forward than my writing style

Moshe, since you started posting everything you've posted is pure fantasy (Ip Man deliberately taught everyone a watered down version of Wing Chun and only taught the real version to your sigung lol). You also haven't answered my question (as usual). As you made the statement that if you mix stances it is not Wing Chun and are adamant that the weight must always be on the rear leg I ask again do you do YGKYM or saam bok ma? Come to think of it have you been shown the MYJ form? I come from a lineage that heavilly favours the rear weighted stance and for very good reason but we also favour a square on stance and turning as the situation dictates.

[LoneTiger108]

So are we coming to the idea that NSK is part structure and part distraction\ deception? How does this apply when the bridge is connected?

IMHO There are specific lines of attack of the feet that we can obstruct, rather than distract, an opponent from actually 'seeing' by using set hand methods that cover the lines. The hands don't necessarily have to distract you or draw your attention, they can be very subtle and literally 'hide' the leg and footwork for you. Then the foot travels super fast! Shadowless, if you will.

The deception idea has been touched on before, using the seurng lansau from Chum Kiu as a launch pad for the legs, and maintaining a steady upper body while we first lift the leg. These two bar arms also block your opponents view of your legs, if you are at the correct range ;)

[Vajramusti]

Just got this idea, somewhere...
Ian, do you pull your both legs 50/50 down the street? :p

How do we walk?

J, :)
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In forward steps I stay balanced -I don't drag the back foot.

[Happy Tiger]

There is a Facebook page for 'The Ip Man Question'.
Currently an interesting discourse reguarding this very thread is going on.:)

[Vajramusti]

There is a Facebook page for 'The Ip Man Question'.
Currently an interesting discourse reguarding this very thread is going on.:)
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Too bad. I dont do facebook or twitter or link etc Not bragging- just a fact.

[GlennR]

There is a Facebook page for 'The Ip Man Question'.
Currently an interesting discourse reguarding this very thread is going on.:)

You mean this guy i take it

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/head-scratcher/

Well why doesn't he hop on here and educate us with his vast knowledge??

[GlennR]

You mean this guy i take it

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/head-scratcher/

Well why doesn't he hop on here and educate us with his vast knowledge??

He's got plenty of time on his hands

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/head-scratcher-2/

[Happy Tiger]

He's got plenty of time on his hands

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/head-scratcher-2/
:):):):rolleyes::rolleyes:

[GlennR]

He's got plenty of time on his hands

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/head-scratcher-2/

And theres more!

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/head-scratcher-3/


And this is priceless.....

'Its funny how in trying to be clever one ends up being unscientific. To boost the argument the writer even starts to bring in the lineage argument and indirectly calling the other person childish. You know what is childish? Not being able to argue the case and starts calling the other person childish and putting up the “teacher says” and “my lineage does it this way so don’t question us cause its not your right” argument. To top it off accuse the other person of not knowing things even though you have never met the person of seen his call. This is why I don’t bother to post on kungfumagazine forum. No point trying to argue.'


But more than happy to put it up on his own page to highlight his "advanced skillz" ;)

[GlennR]

And theres more!

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/head-scratcher-3/


And this is priceless.....

'Its funny how in trying to be clever one ends up being unscientific. To boost the argument the writer even starts to bring in the lineage argument and indirectly calling the other person childish. You know what is childish? Not being able to argue the case and starts calling the other person childish and putting up the “teacher says” and “my lineage does it this way so don’t question us cause its not your right” argument. To top it off accuse the other person of not knowing things even though you have never met the person of seen his call. This is why I don’t bother to post on kungfumagazine forum. No point trying to argue.'


But more than happy to put it up on his own page to highlight his "advanced skillz" ;)

Apparently we are all chest beaters!

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/chest-drum/

[Grumblegeezer]

A few more random thoughts on weight distribution and non-telegraphic kicks. First off, there are a lot of things that could telegraph a kick besides a weight shift. Maybe you shift your guard, angle your torso, tend to extend your lead hand, twitch, pick your nose, or whatever.

Like Moshe, I also come from a lineage that frees up the front leg by using the 100% back weighted stance. Back weighting like this does help remove one aspect of telegraphing a kick... that is the visible weight shift otherwise needed to free-up the front leg. This usually takes the form of a backwards shift of the hips or lean of the torso an instant before the kick is launched.

On the other hand, with practice, this small weight shift can be made in the same instant that the kick is delivered. In that case, the weight shift does not give away the kick, since it all happens at once. So what really matters (as Lee Chiang Po suggested) is how good your kicks are.

Or, to put it another way, although I see Moshe's point, I'd caution against saying that everybody else has a telegraphic kick. Moshe, if you feel that way, you really need to get out more and see what the best proponents of other lineages can do!

[LoneTiger108]

You mean this guy i take it

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/head-scratcher/

Well why doesn't he hop on here and educate us with his vast knowledge??

Wow! I never realized that my writings on here would be republished on someones blog as an example of 'Sifu Says!' lol! Talking about removing the entire context of what people are sharing to inflate your own weeny little ego.

I guess calling yourself Mushin, literally that is the guys full name apparently, and promoting himself as a Taiji and Wing Chun teacher (??) puts him in a league of his own where he can be critical of everyone without any feedback whatsoever.

Oh wait! He 'helped' write the 'Complete Wing Chun' book so he must be right? Because we all know that anyone who had anything to do with that book is right :D

Destroys the whole concept of a forum IMHO but each to their own...

[GlennR]

Wow! I never realized that my writings on here would be republished on someones blog as an example of 'Sifu Says!' lol! Talking about removing the entire context of what people are sharing to inflate your own weeny little ego.

I guess calling yourself Mushin, literally that is the guys full name apparently, and promoting himself as a Taiji and Wing Chun teacher (??) puts him in a league of his own where he can be critical of everyone without any feedback whatsoever.

Oh wait! He 'helped' write the 'Complete Wing Chun' book so he must be right? Because we all know that anyone who had anything to do with that book is right :D

Destroys the whole concept of a forum IMHO but each to their own...

oh, and dont forget "The Ip Man question".... he's quite the author

[LoneTiger108]

oh, and dont forget "The Ip Man question".... he's quite the author

I have no interest in people who do not identify themselves mate.

Not just that, I'm sorry but my learning of Wing Chun and years I have put into my own families research isn't going to be affected by anyone like this...

"I currently practice Taijiquan, Yang style. I started learning taiji in 1976 and have been doing so on and off since then. Eleven years ago I decided to go with taiji permanently."

So why write about Wing Chun?? :confused:

[GlennR]

I have no interest in people who do not identify themselves mate.

Not just that, I'm sorry but my learning of Wing Chun and years I have put into my own families research isn't going to be affected by anyone like this...

"I currently practice Taijiquan, Yang style. I started learning taiji in 1976 and have been doing so on and off since then. Eleven years ago I decided to go with taiji permanently."

So why write about Wing Chun?? :confused:

He's at it again

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/head-scratcher-4/

Id suggest he's a bit of a knob ;)

[wingchunIan]

Just got this idea, somewhere...
Ian, do you pull your both legs 50/50 down the street? :p

How do we walk?

J, :)

Try reading the thread before you comment it will make you look a little less stupid when you post. In my post I think that you will find I advocated moving between different weightings as the need arose.
Shame there isn't an intelligence test before the forum lets you post.

[LoneTiger108]

Why not? Being out of wing chun, he can write about it independently...

As I said, each to their own, but why not just post here so we can respond to his opinions too?

Wing Chun, for me, exists without any need of additional ideas and styles like Yang, or whatever, Taiji.


On the other hand, guy seems to have first hand info from Ip Man first generation student.

I understand this but some of us have been in Wing Chun itself for years now, ten, twenty, and some thirty or so! Some are students of 1st generation, some 2nd like me but I know what I have, and we have quite a vast amount of single leg practise. I also have heard of Chu Shong Tin learning and background, so I'm quite clear what he specialized in more than others. As I know what my Sigung specialized in, it's all good stuff so there's no argument there.


Reading his IMQ, which is result of his study and research, he represent the single leg weight distribution style of wing chun in a simple yet complete way.
In my opinion excellent work...

I'm not saying it isn't, just that he should be more 'open' himself to other families ideas and opinions, seeing as his Wing Chun may just be a snapshot in time compared to some here.

And I'm actually not a 'Sifu says' kinda guy either... more like 'this is what my Sifu wrote for me' ;)

[wingchunIan]

I am sorry, if my post made you angry.
Good chi to you... :)

J, :)

Your post didn't make me angry at all (or any other emotion for that matter), I was simply pointing out that it made you look very stupid.

[wingchunIan]

In my opinion there are not wrong questions, but are different interpretations.
My post was not in any way insulting toward you.

I respect Ethic. Reading your statements I see, you do not...


J, :)

You begin by saying you were not insulting and then go on to make an absurd statement including an unintelligent assumption about me. My post was not insulting either, just simply pointing out that you made yourself look stupid by not bothering to read previous posts or at least the one you quote from before commenting. You have once again done the same thing by your post above. What questions are you referring to? What "ethic" is it exactly that you respect? Your sentence makes no sense even if you capitalise the first letter. There are ethics, of which I have many. You can value an ethic such as a hard work ethic, or an ethic of politeness or humility and I do, or you can be ethical and I try to be so in all of my dealings both in person and in business.

[LoneTiger108]

In my opinion there are not wrong questions, but are different interpretations.

FWIW IMHO This is one of the most common problems within Martial Arts today.

And it's a genuine misconception from people who have been taught 'as a student', not from those I have met who have been taught 'as a teacher/Sifu'.

So, Jox, there ARE wrong questions for student teachers to ask, and the Sifu who promotes that there are no 'wrong questions' is just teaching people to train, as fighters or healthy exercise maybe. And again, if you have this idea I can only assume you are currently still a student who has not expressed an interest to teach for your Sifu?

If this is the case, your question on ethics serves no purpose either man! The word, I believe, you were looking for is 'virtue' (?) and there is a whole heap of those to consider learning if you want to teach (privately or publically!)

I was taught these as a 'Mo Duk', as I know others would have too and from my personal and brief experience of Ian and his Sifu, they have this by the bucket load. Just my opinion though, so take it as that only...

[Happy Tiger]

Very interesting responses. A few of the things I do know. The signature 'lifting' aspect of our kicking system is a big part of the mechanics of no shadow. There was :confused::) a good chart in the thread showing the geometry of this.
I like to lift with a very slight concave curve that seems to add power (acceleration curve) and smoother returning recoverable energy. Compaired to chambered kicks, this method really can make for a echoless upper body. When lifting through this nearly imperceptible curve, the returning energy 'sticks' you to the ground alowing you to kick out and return even from YGKYM without shadow.
On the issue of footwork and the weight distrubution task, it's a pickle when side stepping using step/slide method to maintain ambidexterity .In the mook jong, when step/sliding to say the right ( dummies left) the one place you kick right legged, many houses have a near to total cross step as a solution to grabbing purchase . Hhhhhhmmmmm. Apart from this chapter in the MYJ to facilitate the boot, how often do we see 'cross over stepping'? Not often.
This is where the 'T' step can be a solution. None of the houses I've formally trained in use this interesting footwork. (to the best of my knowlege) The T step in Traditional Wing Chun give one parity of kicking pretty well. The only trade off I feel is alittle less stickiness as you move to the side. Shuffle slide does really alow a 'spiraling in' closeness. Where the T step seems to pull you away slightly from the core of the opponent. But this is slight.
Thank you for all the informative posts...and what happened to that chart?;)

[LoneTiger108]

Regarding questions on the forum, I think that we should ask what ever we like...
The problem arises because of interpretations...

That wasn't exactly made clear Jox but it's okay.

On the interpretation thing... how do you think people receive different interpretations of a system? And do you honestly think that this is the core of the problem?

I ask because my view is based on the fact that every single Sifu I have met doesn't necessarily have a different interpretation of the basics of Wing Chun system, but they have been shown different 'styles' of chisau, entry and sparring methods by their Sifu. Some good, and some bad. The guys with little skill tend to be those that 'chose' to teach rather than those that were 'taught to teach' if you see what I mean?

[Happy Tiger]

I have found, for me, internal training has really helped in the microcosm of kicking structure.
The hyper-awareness of both internal and external goings on and the taxonomy of energys that this kinda training can bring makes it worth the time and 'non effort'.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/pic16.jpg

[LoneTiger108]

In the mook jong, when step/sliding to say the right ( dummies left) the one place you kick right legged, many houses have a near to total cross step as a solution to grabbing purchase . Hhhhhhmmmmm. Apart from this chapter in the MYJ to facilitate the boot, how often do we see 'cross over stepping'? Not often.

This is a Mui Fa step and it 'should' be prevalent in all Wing Chun but that is simply not the case. In my earlier times we used to call this 'skirt stepping' ;)


This is where the 'T' step can be a solution. None of the houses I've formally trained in use this interesting footwork.

Well, meet another family that does! Although we call this 'dragon stepping' and not the T-Step (although Sifu Goh may use that term too) what you describe is the same (I think!)

With both our dragon and skirt steps we have a Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) of each, they can be done with front/back legs and one version that is dead centre (like most 108 from your example) and it has a lot to do with 'snake walking' FME

Needed to get you in position for your shadowless kicks, but not really the kicks themselves ;)