What could this guy do using his yang style to win?

[xinyidizi]

I never thought that modern yang style guys were also into fighting, nevertheless what this guy does is pretty humiliating for TCMA and shows what lack of experience in fighting has done to these systems. However I want to know how you think this guy could win the fight using his style against the white belt BJJ guy.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMxMzIzNjEy.html

[YouKnowWho]

How many Taiji guys train defense against "shooting" and ground game? Taiji guys should rearrange their training priority,

[xinyidizi]

If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?

[IronFist]

Looks like Chinese video sites force you to watch ads before you can watch the video, too, like YouTube does :o


If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?

Very low. Not saying it never happens, but it probably rarely happens, especially if you don't train against resisting opponents who are trying to take you down. A lot of the "too deadly" people who say they would stop a take down attempt with knees have probably never trained against a resisting opponent who was actually competent at grappling. Instead, they probably train against another student in their class who has no experience grappling, like the equivalent of the punch counters where the opponent throws a punch and leaves his arm extended afterward. I'm sure there are many grapplers would would be happy to train with those people.

Has anyone here ever seen a TMA person successfully stop a takedown with knees or anything else in any of the earlier UFCs when it was style vs style?

[bawang]

If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?

zero. if he is fat, 5 percent.


your best chance would be to offer the mma guy to push hands, and sucker punch him.

[David Jamieson]

The BJJ guy has learned to use his stuff in an environment where he is virtually never training it solo. His road work is solo, his BJJ work is invariably done with a resisting partner.

This is not true of Tai Chi players who focus on being alone and doing their chosen family set. The greater part of all tai chi players do not do resistance training, do not spar with any real force and the extent of their partner practice is push hands which is a competition thing in and of itself but no where near anything like a real conflict.

In short, Tai Chi is not a useful martial art martially at this point. It has been for the most stripped of all the martially useful stuff and turned into a health regimen for old people or a martial art for people who don't want to do all the hard work part of martial arts.

It's good health exercise based in martial arts but is no longer martially valuable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?

Those "defenses" have been dis proven more times than blocking fists with your face.
Fact is that the defending the shoot with knees only works ONE way and that is NOT the way that TCMA tend to train it.
You defend the shoot with a knee by moving/jumping INTO the attempted shoot/tackle ( which does NOT work VS a take down from the inside).

[donjitsu2]

zero. if he is fat, 5 percent.


your best chance would be to offer the mma guy to push hands, and sucker punch him.

Good point.

A lot of more traditional martial arts (not just Taiji) have been so focused on preserving the "tradition" and they have stopped allowing their art to evolve over time.

The mindset seems to be, "If it worked way back then, it'll work now." But that's really just a lame excuse to get fat and do your forms by yourself.

The reality is: Things change and if your art doesn't adapt to that change then it stops being useful as a legitimate fighting method - it becomes an anachronism. Sure, it can have it's place as a way to honor older traditions and build discipline (perhaps even some level of fitness) but it won't be of much use outside of that context.

[taai gihk yahn]

If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?

he would have a better chance astrally projecting himself out of the way...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The TCMA guy would have been better off training to deal with a simple 1-2 combo ( that got him on his ass) also.
In short that was a typical example of what NOT fighting VS someone trying to punch you in the face and take you down, does to a person.
How many times in demos or clips showning TCMA, do you see them deal with a simple 1-2 combo?
Rarely, but you do see them "dealing" with a "step-in punch and leave the arm there" attack, LOL !

[SimonM]

He could learn how to, you know, fight...

at all...

:rolleyes:

[Robinhood]

I would say most tai chi aggressive moves are not allowed in sport fighting , like striking weak areas or chin-na breaks, and using environment around area.

He is out of luck in this environment, depending on skill levels.

In this video , it does not look like the guy tried to do anything except survive without getting injured.

[SimonM]

Come on, don't make excuses. The Taiji guy reacted like a non-fighter. He didn't react like a restrained fighter who couldn't make use of his best stuff - he got plowed over by a shoot immediately and later geot floored by a bit of a sloppy hook punch he didn't seem to see coming.

I'm sorry, but if he had any fighting skills why didn't he even try a shoulder check? I'm sure those are part of the Taiji curriculum during push hands. For that matter why didn't he try to turn out of the direct line of the shoot?

And I won't even get started on his... I want to say low-inside-crescent kick....

[Lucas]

taiji has no excuses. all the same material is in taiji that is in long fist. you CAN use taiji to fight, as long as you train to fight...

[Robinhood]

Come on, don't make excuses. The Taiji guy reacted like a non-fighter. He didn't react like a restrained fighter who couldn't make use of his best stuff - he got plowed over by a shoot immediately and later geot floored by a bit of a sloppy hook punch he didn't seem to see coming.

I'm sorry, but if he had any fighting skills why didn't he even try a shoulder check? I'm sure those are part of the Taiji curriculum during push hands. For that matter why didn't he try to turn out of the direct line of the shoot?

And I won't even get started on his... I want to say low-inside-crescent kick....

Ask him, maybe at his level he was not able to, who knows, could a, would a, should a, you could go on forever.

[Fa Xing]

I spent a lot of time learning Taiji, and trying to figure out how I might use it to fight. The problem I have had always had is that (1) those that practice Taiji for the most part had no interest in fighting with it or had (like some people on this forum) unrealistic ideas of what combat would be like (imaginary qi-powers, etc.), (2) it's often (not always) practiced far too slow despite what the Taiji Classics say about "beating people to the punch" to paraphrase it roughly.

I think it's possible to use for fighting, but there are more efficient ways to do so, and more effective. That being said, if you like doing Taiji, then practice it, no one says you shouldn't, but be honest with yourself about what you can or can't do.

Another thing I might add, Taiji principles are actually pretty solid. The problem comes about when people try to format the principles according to their own movements, and not their movements according to the principles.

[Fa Xing]

Come on, don't make excuses. The Taiji guy reacted like a non-fighter. He didn't react like a restrained fighter who couldn't make use of his best stuff - he got plowed over by a shoot immediately and later geot floored by a bit of a sloppy hook punch he didn't seem to see coming.

I'm sorry, but if he had any fighting skills why didn't he even try a shoulder check? I'm sure those are part of the Taiji curriculum during push hands. For that matter why didn't he try to turn out of the direct line of the shoot?

And I won't even get started on his... I want to say low-inside-crescent kick....

I have always thought "repulse the monkey" is the movement used to stop a single/double-leg takedown.

http://www.chiflow.com/images/RepulseMonkeyYangStyle.jpg

[xinyidizi]

This guy was paralyzed from the beginning. Forget about fighting, I don't know what he was thinking by going to such a competition without even trying to watch some online videos about the common techniques his opponent would probably use. I have certainly seen much better taiji people in competitions that probably could handle such situations better but the majority of TCMA people are probably as inexperienced in fighting as this guy and this needs to change.

[Shaolin]

I want to know how you think this guy could win the fight using his style against the white belt BJJ guy.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMxMzIzNjEy.html

Tai Chi has take down defenses in it, but this guys as with most haven't learned what they are. For him to learn his system better he needs to learn other systems first in order to unlock the applications in the movements he already knows.

Speaking for myself, in the past few years I've learned more applications in my Shaolin sets from my boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ, MMA and wrestling coaches than I ever did from my kung fu coaches. And they didn't even know they were showing me the applications.

Shaolin has a ton of different movements and variations of, and there are only so many logical ways the body can move, and from what I've seen in 15 years Shaolin covers most all of them. But it doesn't cover all of the applications and usages of those movements and I would be a fool to think it did, so I train in other systems to unlock those ideas.

[SimonM]

I have certainly seen much better taiji people in competitions that probably could handle such situations better

Vids? As in do you have videographic evidence of these better taiji people in competition?

I'm honestly interested because, as a wrestler, I tend to agree with Fa Xing on this - that Taiji has some sound principles but fails in application due to pedagogical issues. If you've seen somebody with "the real deal" taiji successfully using it I, for one, would be very interested to see.

[xinyidizi]

Vids? As in do you have videographic evidence of these better taiji people in competition?

I'm honestly interested because, as a wrestler, I tend to agree with Fa Xing on this - that Taiji has some sound principles but fails in application due to pedagogical issues. If you've seen somebody with "the real deal" taiji successfully using it I, for one, would be very interested to see.

Well there is this wulindahui (武林大会）program on TV which is for the most part a bunch of inexperienced beginners trying to fight each other but there are some interesting things in them that show potential for taiji as a competitive MA. For example see 王战军 and 陈自强 fights. I'm not saying that it's UFC level and who knows if everything is fair but still there are some good things in there.

[SimonM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdzhYjx_zw

Right, because doing push-hands with a sumo wrestler shows your skill as a fighter in a fair arena. :rolleyes:

Here he smacks around a tomato can for a while. Still looking for a fair fight so that I can assess his skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i5jw8_lVkk

I will say this: he's better than a talentless nobody.

[xinyidizi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdzhYjx_zw

Right, because doing push-hands with a sumo wrestler shows your skill as a fighter in a fair arena. :rolleyes:

Who said anything about push hands and sumo?

[Frost]

He could learn how to, you know, fight...

at all...

:rolleyes:

you are so nasty :)

all you had to do was see the two guys stood together to know which one had actually trained hard and which one was going to get his backside handed to him, but at least the guy got in there and tried to test his stuff

[YouKnowWho]

I have always thought "repulse the monkey" is the movement used to stop a single/double-leg takedown.

http://www.chiflow.com/images/RepulseMonkeyYangStyle.jpg

The "repulse the monkey" is the single leg take down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBI3xdVO1uI

[SimonM]

Who said anything about push hands and sumo?

Top link for Wang Zhanzhun on youtube was him doing push hands with a sumo. It's the one that I, you know, linked.

In the second link Wang Zhanzhun was fighting somebody who was apparently another taiji stylist, but it was so one-sided that it doesn't really tell us much about his actual wrestling skills. Some of the techniques he employed wouldn't have worked against a trained guy who weighed the same as him.

His opponent was a lot smaller and didn't seem to know how to fight.

[SimonM]

but at least the guy got in there and tried to test his stuff

True enough. I'll give him credit for trying; a lot of people are too afraid to do that.

[bawang]

taiji has no excuses. all the same material is in taiji that is in long fist. you CAN use taiji to fight, as long as you train to fight...

but how you defend hook punch???? its such powerful and mysterious attack.

the hook punch is kryptonite to kung fu.

[Fa Xing]

The "repulse the monkey" is the single leg take down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBI3xdVO1uI

I think you might refer to "brush knee":

http://www.oocities.org/meiyingsheng/brush.GIF

That would be a "single-leg" takedown since it moves forward. "Repulse the monkey" moves backward.

[bawang]

I have always thought "repulse the monkey" is the movement used to stop a single/double-leg takedown.

http://www.chiflow.com/images/RepulseMonkeyYangStyle.jpg

NOE

repulse monkey is corrupted term of "reverse hong quan".


I think you might refer to "brush knee":


NOE

brush knee is shortened term for "brush knee single whip" . its a beginner reverse punch.

[xinyidizi]

Top link for Wang Zhanzhun on youtube was him doing push hands with a sumo. It's the one that I, you know, linked.

In the second link Wang Zhanzhun was fighting somebody who was apparently another taiji stylist, but it was so one-sided that it doesn't really tell us much about his actual wrestling skills. Some of the techniques he employed wouldn't have worked against a trained guy who weighed the same as him.

His opponent was a lot smaller and didn't seem to know how to fight.

Watch this one: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjU0MDgxNDA0.html

[YouKnowWho]

If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?
The Taiji guy's combat strategy and posture are all wrong. If he is fighting against a grappler who likes to shoot, he should

- extend his arms, and
- put his hands and arms in his opponent's shooting path.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

This way when the BJJ guy shoots, he has to pass the Taiji guy's hands and arms first before he can gets to the leg. The Taiji guy may have chance to borrow the BJJ guy's shooting and drag him on the ground and then mount him.

[Frost]

Watch this one: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjU0MDgxNDA0.html

umm what the hell were the rules there.....ref to stop them everytime a fight might break out?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Taiji guy's combat strategy and posture is all wrong. If he is fighting against a grappler who likes to shoot, he should

- extend his arms, and
- put his hands and arms in his opponent's shooting path.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

This way when the BJJ guy shoots, he has to pass the Taiji guy's hands and arms first before he can gets to the leg. The Taiji guy may have chance to borrow the BJJ guy's shooting and drag him on the ground and then mount him.

In an MMA enviroment, that well get you "overhanded" in the next day.
Over extending like that will also motivate the opponent to "slip and take your back" as opposed to going for the shoot.

[Frost]

The Taiji guy's combat strategy and posture is all wrong. If he is fighting against a grappler who likes to shoot, he should

- extend his arms, and
- put his hands and arms in his opponent's shooting path.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

This way when the BJJ guy shoots, he has to pass the Taiji guy's hands and arms first before he can gets to the leg. The Taiji guy may have chance to borrow the BJJ guy's shooting and drag him on the ground and then mount him.

then again he might have his backside handed to him for trying something so stupid

[Fa Xing]

but how you defend hook punch???? its such powerful and mysterious attack.

the hook punch is kryptonite to kung fu.

Either move out of the way or "double wind through the ears":
http://ymaa.com/files/article-lesson-from-taijiquan-form-1.jpg

Which I personally don't recommend, the bob and weave is better. By the way "strike tiger, left and right" are a low cross, and lead high hook:

http://www.lungchuanfa.com/public/images/thumb/e/e7/JT_Strike_Tiger.jpg/400px-JT_Strike_Tiger.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

I think you might refer to "brush knee":

http://www.oocities.org/meiyingsheng/brush.GIF

That would be a "single-leg" takedown since it moves forward. "Repulse the monkey" moves backward.

The footwork was designed so you can move back to exactly the same spot and face the same direction at the end of your Taiji form. Don't pay attention on the foot work. The "Repulse the monkey" is right hand push and left hand pull. It's "single leg".

The "brush knee" is right hand push, left hand deflect (not pull).

[Fa Xing]

NOE

repulse monkey is corrupted term of "reverse hong quan".



NOE

brush knee is shortened term for "brush knee single whip" . its a beginner reverse punch.

I know that about "repulse monkey" but it's just the common english term we use.

Usually we translate it to "brush knee and push."

[bawang]

Either move out of the way or "double wind through the ears":


Which I personally don't recommend, the bob and weave is better. By the way "strike tiger, left and right" are a low cross, and lead high hook:

or you can cover your head with your hand like western boxing.

[mawali]

If the taji guy was faster and more focused what would be his chances in attacking the bjj guy's head with his knee or fists in that first takedown?

It is not about the guy doing taiji but his exposure to physical conditioning methods and some level of grappling, whether incorporating BJJ, judo, shuaijiao, etc. The taiji guy thought that by running, lifting weights, etc he was polluting taiji when in fact the opposite was true because he was unfit and a laughingstock!

He failed to adapt to the trainng conditions of his opponent.

[Fa Xing]

The footwork was designed so you can move back to exactly the same spot and face the same direction at the end of your Taiji form. Don't pay attention on the foot work. The "Repulse the monkey" is right hand push and left hand pull. It's "single leg".

I could see what you mean by that, I was just applying it as is. ;)

[Fa Xing]

or you can cover your head with your hand like western boxing.

Definitely, and I have and will do that myself. I will also lean depending on my range and use their recovery from the hook to counter with a straight left in a southpaw stance or vice versa.

[bawang]

Definitely, and I have and will do that myself. I will also lean depending on my range and use their recovery from the hook to counter with a straight left in a southpaw stance or vice versa.

are you ready for surprise?

surprse deploying in 3
2
1











in tai chi its called "face protecting fist". just like "heart protecting fist".

[SimonM]

Watch this one: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjU0MDgxNDA0.html

It reminds me of when I did high-school wrestling with an occasional knee thrown in.

It's not an ABSENCE of any ability to fight but it's not exactly rocking my world. :rolleyes:

[bawang]

It is not about the guy doing taiji but his exposure to physical conditioning methods and some level of grappling, whether incorporating BJJ, judo, shuaijiao, etc. The taiji guy thought that by running, lifting weights, etc he was polluting taiji when in fact the opposite was true because he was unfit and a laughingstock!

He failed to adapt to the trainng conditions of his opponent.

he is posessed by a demon. there is nothing you can do for him.

this is called "playing with fire and inviting demons" in kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

In an MMA enviroment, that well get you "overhanded" in the next day.
Over extending like that will also motivate the opponent to "slip and take your back" as opposed to going for the shoot.

then again he might have his backside handed to him for trying something so stupid
If your opponent can do that to you, your grip fight skill is still not good enough.

When a insect extends it's tentacles to feel the environment, if his tentacles can't send him back the right signal for him to take the right body respond, that insect's tentacles donot function correctly.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4472/tentacle.jpg

[bawang]

are you talking about kung fu or those japanese pornos with the octopus in the vagine?

[IronFist]

I would say most tai chi aggressive moves are not allowed in sport fighting , like striking weak areas or chin-na breaks, and using environment around area.

He is out of luck in this environment, depending on skill levels.

In this video , it does not look like the guy tried to do anything except survive without getting injured.


Seriously?

Are you saying taiji is useless without its super deadly moves?

Don't forget, the BJJ guy was also prevented from using his super deadly moves.

I wonder who would've won the fight if super deadly moves were allowed on both sides?

[bawang]

ironfist, please do not even quote him. he obviously has autism/obseesive compulsive disorder. when you stoop down to his level you insult yourself.

[IronFist]

Come on, don't make excuses. The Taiji guy reacted like a non-fighter. He didn't react like a restrained fighter who couldn't make use of his best stuff - he got plowed over by a shoot immediately and later geot floored by a bit of a sloppy hook punch he didn't seem to see coming.

I'm sorry, but if he had any fighting skills why didn't he even try a shoulder check? I'm sure those are part of the Taiji curriculum during push hands. For that matter why didn't he try to turn out of the direct line of the shoot?

And I won't even get started on his... I want to say low-inside-crescent kick....

Bolded for truth.

I still give the taiji guy props for stepping in the ring (or on the mat) against someone from another style. Hopefully he learned from this experience.

[SimonM]

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4472/tentacle.jpg

Yeah, um, we're bipeds - what applies to insect bio-mechanics doesn't necessarily apply to ours.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, um, we're bipeds - what applies to insect bio-mechanics doesn't necessarily apply to ours.

Actually, I knew this girl...

[bawang]

Actually, I knew this girl...

who mates with men, then eat them?

[Robinhood]

Watch this one: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjU0MDgxNDA0.html


That was pretty good, rules seem to allow for real skills to be used.

[IronFist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdzhYjx_zw

Right, because doing push-hands with a sumo wrestler shows your skill as a fighter in a fair arena. :rolleyes:

rofl, pushing a sumo wrestler doesn't mean anything. And when the sumo wrestler was pushing really hard, the taiji guy pulled his force back a little bit and the sumo guy fell over. None of that has anything to do with fighting, though.


Here he smacks around a tomato can for a while. Still looking for a fair fight so that I can assess his skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i5jw8_lVkk

I will say this: he's better than a talentless nobody.

That first push where he sent him flying was stupid.

Later on he sends the guy out of the ring with a Muay Thai round kick. 404 TCMA not found.

Those videos didn't prove anything, but you already knew that :)

[bawang]

Later on he sends the guy out of the ring with a Muay Thai round kick. 404 TCMA not found.



train muay thai + bjj , call it tai chi.

PROBLEM SOLVED

[Frost]

If your opponent can do that to you, your grip fight skill is still not good enough.

When a insect extends it's tentacles to feel the environment, if his tentacles can't send him back the right signal for him to take the right body respond, that insect's tentacles donot function correctly.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4472/tentacle.jpg

please show us any examples of this working against a low shot, any

[IronFist]

It is not about the guy doing taiji but his exposure to physical conditioning methods and some level of grappling, whether incorporating BJJ, judo, shuaijiao, etc. The taiji guy thought that by running, lifting weights, etc he was polluting taiji when in fact the opposite was true because he was unfit and a laughingstock!

He failed to adapt to the trainng conditions of his opponent.

Even if the taiji guy lifted weights he still would have lost.

[IronFist]

Watch this one: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjU0MDgxNDA0.html

Why do they have to start with their hands touching?

That was weird fighting. What are the rules? Are they allowed to punch in the face?

[YouKnowWho]

Yeah, um, we're bipeds - what applies to insect bio-mechanics doesn't necessarily apply to ours.

Not if you train it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHXEJxvDaxg

[SimonM]

Bolded for truth.

I still give the taiji guy props for stepping in the ring (or on the mat) against someone from another style. Hopefully he learned from this experience.

100% agreement here on that.

[IronFist]

Not if you train it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHXEJxvDaxg

http://i.qkme.me/35iuf8.jpg

[SimonM]

Not if you train it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHXEJxvDaxg

Paddy cake?

[xinyidizi]

rofl, pushing a sumo wrestler doesn't mean anything. And when the sumo wrestler was pushing really hard, the taiji guy pulled his force back a little bit and the sumo guy fell over. None of that has anything to do with fighting, though.



That first push where he sent him flying was stupid.

Later on he sends the guy out of the ring with a Muay Thai round kick. 404 TCMA not found.

Those videos didn't prove anything, but you already knew that :)

Well it proves it very well that you don't know much about Taiji moves let alone TCMA moves.

[Lucas]

but how you defend hook punch???? its such powerful and mysterious attack.

the hook punch is kryptonite to kung fu.

what is a hook punch? :confused:

[SimonM]

Actually, I knew this girl...

If you knew a girl for whom insect bio-mechanics applied and/or who wasn't a biped...

Pics or it didn't happen. :eek:

[xinyidizi]

Why do they have to start with their hands touching?

That was weird fighting. What are the rules? Are they allowed to punch in the face?

No they can't attack the neck and head using their hands but I think they can kick.

[Lucas]

If you knew a girl for whom insect bio-mechanics applied and/or who wasn't a biped...

Pics or it didn't happen. :eek:

This is one of Sanjuro's old conquests.

http://scienceofcoachingsquash.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/contortionist_maggi_2_big.jpg

[SimonM]

I'm blind!

[Lucas]

I'm blind!

ya that happens.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is one of Sanjuro's old conquests.

http://scienceofcoachingsquash.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/contortionist_maggi_2_big.jpg

She was very bendy

[YouKnowWho]

please show us any examples of this working against a low shot, any

If I'm in Texas, I'll show you one of my tournament clips (it's still on my VHS). For now, I only have training clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GkrSMrpl14

[Frost]

If I'm in Texas, I'll show you one of my tournament clips (it's still on my VHS).

its ok show me it being done by anyone doesnt have to be you if it works other grapplers would be using it quite a lot in MMA dont you think?

[YouKnowWho]

its ok show me it being done by anyone doesnt have to be you if it works other grapplers would be using it quite a lot in MMA dont you think?
I'm pretty sure you will see "downward pulling" used in UFC in the next 10 years. It's almost effortless if your timing is right.

Again, the "downward pulling" will need some training too. It doesn't come to you without training. If your opponent shoot at your leg 100 times daily and you respond to it. After a year, you will have pretty good timing for it.

This is why when I go to gym, I always like to use my pulley to train downward pulling along with my footwork (when I don't have a resisted partner).

[Robinhood]

Why do they have to start with their hands touching?

That was weird fighting. What are the rules? Are they allowed to punch in the face?


Were you born yesterday ! Lol. :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

If I'm in Texas, I'll show you one of my tournament clips (it's still on my VHS). For now, I only have training clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GkrSMrpl14

That guy was neither a resisting opponent nor a trained grappler.

Also, why did you stop at the end? Why didn't he continue to try and take you down? He ended with his hand right by your left foot. Even if your counter stopped him (which I don't think would happen on a trained grappler), he would've grabbed your ankle and taken you down.

Basically, if you don't get your feet away from him, you are going down. That's why people sprawl in response to a takedown attempt.

http://www.grapplearts.com/images/Grappling-Techniques/Striking-Grappling/Sprawl4.jpg

Maybe you can knee him in the face from the sprawl.

http://www.grapplearts.com/images/Grappling-Techniques/Striking-Grappling/Sprawl5.jpg

But often the person sprawling ends up sort of lying down, too. Can't really knee from that position:

http://fightmash.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/mma-fight-sprawl.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-g3CE984WwE/TUgqymvr3VI/AAAAAAAAAkA/zNQUJETWGqk/s1600/Sprawl_MMA.jpg

[Shaolin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GkrSMrpl14

Those shots were disgusting. It would be nice for once if a traditionalist would demonstrate take down defense techniques against someone who could actually shoot properly.

Downward pulling has already been used in the UFC. Watch Chuck vs just about anyone.

[YouKnowWho]

why did you stop at the end?

I have always believed that an elbow drop on the back of my opponent's head is the most effective finished move (not showing in that clip). In order to do so, I have to be closer to my opponent's head. The reverse head lock (guillotine) is also my favor.

[Frost]

If I'm in Texas, I'll show you one of my tournament clips (it's still on my VHS). For now, I only have training clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GkrSMrpl14

sorry but that was terrible, i respect your skills in chinese wrestling but those shots were horrible anything could work against them that will never work like that against a half decent opponent

[Lucas]

Downward pulling has already been used in the UFC. Watch Chuck vs just about anyone.

so then basically you're saying it was a poor example, but in the end hes right. It's been used well in the UFC by a champion class fighter.

so anyone who wanted that vid, can just go watch chuck. problem solved.

[YouKnowWho]

sorry but that was terrible, i respect your skills in chinese wrestling but those shots were horrible anything could work against them that will never work like that against a half decent opponent

I had used the same move to take down my wrestling opponent many times in my tournament life. It's my bread and butter. I know I should not brag about myself, but this is one move that I'm very good at it. I don't know what else to say. May be my opponents were not top notch but they all belonged to college wrestling team, and I had to fight them through single elimination.

[Shaolin]

so then basically you're saying it was a poor example, but in the end hes right. It's been used well in the UFC by a champion class fighter.

This is what I'm saying.

[taai gihk yahn]

Ask him, maybe at his level he was not able to, who knows, could a, would a, should a, you could go on forever.
of course - ANYTHING except the obvious answer...:rolleyes:


repulse monkey is corrupted term of "reverse hong quan".
brush knee is shortened term for "brush knee single whip" . its a beginner reverse punch.

double qi-blasted the correctness

[Frost]

so then basically you're saying it was a poor example, but in the end hes right. It's been used well in the UFC by a champion class fighter.

so anyone who wanted that vid, can just go watch chuck. problem solved.

here is what John said

This way when the BJJ guy shoots, he has to pass the Taiji guy's hands and arms first before he can gets to the leg. The Taiji guy may have chance to borrow the BJJ guy's shooting and drag him on the ground and then mount him.
Yes he has to bypass the guys arms, , but reaching up and over to grip and pull them to the floor breaks a basic tennent of wrestling which chuck would not do

Chuck never did that to anyone because the shots power is going forwards and up normally not downwards as in johns example, chucks normal answer was to sprawl and move away, or if it was a bad shot he would level change and underhook guys and moved away, he never dragged them to the ground and mounted them, because chuck was a wrestler in college and understands the 4 levels of defence, head, arms, legs and hips, when shot on he looked to get his arms between him and his opponent not reach up and pull them down, which will also give up the back and Ronin pointed out, asomething chuck never did in any matches

Now if he had stopped the takedown he might then have on occasion snapped them into the floor, but i cant remember this in any of him fights because he didnt want to go to the floor, he wanted to stay standing and punish them

[Lucas]

well sheeet.... :D

looks like you b!tch slapped that one.

[Shaolin]

Chuck never did that to anyone because the shots power is going forwards and up normally not downwards as in johns example,

We weren't discussing John's example, we were commenting on the "downward pulling" in YouKnowWho's video. That concept Chuck has don numerous times in his fights, especially against Tito.

[YouKnowWho]

That concept Chuck has don numerous times in his fights, especially against Tito.
Thanks for the reference.

At 0.50, if it's not "downward pulling", I don't know what will people call that for?

http://www.freevlog.hu/video/12437.html

[Shaolin]

http://www.freevlog.hu/video/12437.html

That is downward pulling in my opinion.

[IronFist]

Looked like a sprawl that he changed his mind on cuz he realized he didn't have to kick his legs back.

Curious to see what other people think.

[Frost]

Thanks for the reference.

At 0.50, if it's not "downward pulling", I don't know what will people call that for?

http://www.freevlog.hu/video/12437.html

a very bad low single or ankle pick since hewas already on his knees and momentum had stopped chuck simpley stepped out of

here is tito teaching a double leg, notice how he explodes in and up and through, if his momentum is going up and through on a shot how can you lead it dow without first stopping it? On a bad shot you can do anything on a good shot like this how will you lead him downwards?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5_eW5lBmk

[SimonM]

Looked like a sprawl that he changed his mind on cuz he realized he didn't have to kick his legs back.

Curious to see what other people think.

Yes, I agree.

It looked like Tito sort of blew the shoot and Chuck realized it at last minute and just got out of the way.

[Lucas]

Looked like a sprawl that he changed his mind on cuz he realized he didn't have to kick his legs back.

Curious to see what other people think.

looks like a combination to me. he went to sprawl, realized he didnt need to, then let the momentum cary tito to the ground and placed his hands to 'make sure'...insurance that he continued on his way down.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A good sprawl is all about the foot work and even more so in Chuck's case because he loved to use that footwork to evade and counter without going to a full sprawl.
His hands were there NOT to pull, but to push down.

[SimonM]

His hands were there NOT to pull, but to push down.

Bolded for truth!

Regardless of the details of what was going on, his hands were ABOVE Tito in that clip. It's kind of hard to PULL somebody down by applying pressure from above.

[xinyidizi]

I think that yang style guy's main problem in the first takedown was his lazy and fearful footwork. As he was stepping forward slowly he let the BJJ guy get too close to him and at that point there was nothing anyone could do against a good shoot. In order to use any of the techniques that have been mentioned here he would have to keep a certain distance , another solution would be to attack first the moment the BJJ guy was close but it would require very fast steps that probably yang style guys don't train.

[Lucas]

Definately not a pull, but then I havn't reviewed all of chucks fights to look specifically for any downward pulling either. I doubt any of us have yet. So maybe he does, maybe he doesnt.

We all know fighting is often situational. If you were in a position to apply a downward pull with a high chance of success, why wouldn't you? It can also depend on what sport you're fighting in.

[YouKnowWho]

His hands were there NOT to pull, but to push down.

The "撳(Qin) - pressing" is a 45 degree downward "pressing" toward yourself. when your hand is behind your opponent's head, and if his head is

- high, it's a downward "pulling".
- low, it's downward "pressing".

I don't like to use the term "downward pushing" because usually "pushing" usually mean that you push your opponent away from you and not toward you. The word "pressing" also doesn't show the direction of the force applied.


We all know fighting is often situational. If you were in a position to apply a downward pull with a high chance of success, why wouldn't you? It can also depend on what sport you're fighting in.
If you get a clinching that both (or one) of your hands are behind your opponent's neck, when your opponent shoot (or has intention to move toward) you from that position, it will definitely be a "downward pulling".

The ACSCA term is translated as "pressing". The ISCA and USSA terms are both translated as "downward pulling".

[SimonM]

That is an argumentative fallacy called "moving the goalposts."

You didn't say pulling and / or pushing down.

You said Liddel uses pulling.

We said prove it.

You provided a video of Liddel NOT pulling.

Then you said "the technique is pulling and / or pushing."

I'm sorry but there's a logical disconnect there. You have never proven that the technique you described is one used by Liddel. All you have demonstrated is that he put a hand down on the back of Tito in what may have been an aborted sprawl or an evasive technique with a bit of pushing.

[YouKnowWho]

You said Liddel uses pulling.
I'm used to call a force

- toward me is pulling.
- away from me is pushing.

May be "pulling" is not the proper word for that clip. Whether it's pulling or pressing, it depends on your "starting point". Let's not arguing with the word, it's a "45 degree downward force toward yourself". It's not a 90 degree downward force because your feet is moving backward.

When your opponent stands "straight" and your hand is behind his neck, you are pulling. The moment that his body lean forward and pass the 45 degree angle, your "pulling" will change into "pressing". you then use the "pressing" force to guid his face all the way down to the ground.

When you and your opponent's body positions change, your force direction change too. It's very common in combat.

[SimonM]

Dude, just stop, there's no way to call what you showed in that clip "pulling" regardless of what semantic gymnastics you engage in. You used the wrong clip.

[YouKnowWho]

Dude, just stop, there's no way to call what you showed in that clip "pulling" regardless of what semantic gymnastics you engage in. You used the wrong clip.
You asked me the question, if I don't answer your question, you will call me ignoring your question. When I answer your question, you wants me to stop. What kind of discussion is this?

I will not ignore people's question as long as it's a friendly question. Most of the time I will try to find pictures, text, or clips to make my answer clear. If I answer a question, I'll give everything that I know and I won't hide anything.

Again according to my definition, "Any force that I apply toward myself is pulling". You don't have to like my definition, but I'm not going to change it.

[Frost]

id still like to know how you can pull or push someone shooting so you borrow their forice when they are shooting like tito demoed in the clip i posted, you know the one where he shoots in and up and through the opponent??

Anything can work against a bad shot like in Johns clip but please show it working against someone who is shooting properly or even half decently like the BJJ guy in the original clip

[SimonM]

You don't have to like my definition, but I'm not going to change it.

Your definition is wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that yang style guy's main problem in the first takedown was his lazy and fearful footwork. As he was stepping forward slowly he let the BJJ guy get too close to him and at that point there was nothing anyone could do against a good shoot. In order to use any of the techniques that have been mentioned here he would have to keep a certain distance , another solution would be to attack first the moment the BJJ guy was close but it would require very fast steps that probably yang style guys don't train.

Lets keep it simple.
The Yang guy got beat because he had NOT trained full contact VS a resisting opponent that was experienced in the "mma" type venue.
It really is just that simple.
Now, if he is smart, what he has to do is either go OUT and get that experience or bring someone IN with that experience and train his style VS them.

[-N-]

Your definition is wrong.

"a : to exert force upon so as to cause or tend to cause motion toward the force"

What's so difficult?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets not argue about the definition of push and pull ok?
Pushing exerts force AWAY from you
Pulling exerts force TOWARDS you.

[-N-]

id still like to know how you can pull or push someone shooting so you borrow their forice when they are shooting like tito demoed in the clip i posted, you know the one where he shoots in and up and through the opponent??


In that case, the "borrowing" would only be against the horizontal component of the shoot.

Any downward force would be against the vertical component, and would be force against force.

So downward pulling against a proper shoot is not the cleanest technique if the intent is to use only borrowing.

[-N-]

Vectors. It's all about the vectors.

[-N-]

Just watched the video.


He could learn how to, you know, fight...

at all...

:rolleyes:

This.

[Frost]

So downward pulling against a proper shoot is not the cleanest technique if the intent is to use only borrowing.

you think:eek:, hence why we haven't see it that much even those John says its the easyiest thing to do against a shot:confused::eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

why try to invent/reinvent a wheel? Sprawl has worked so far. (didn't watch vid) kinda jumped in the conversation halfway through.

[YouKnowWho]

why try to invent/reinvent a wheel? Sprawl has worked so far. (didn't watch vid) kinda jumped in the conversation halfway through.
Reinvent a wheel?

This picture was taken back in 1933 (79 years ago).

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3119/changtournament1.jpg

[SimonM]

And the guy in that shot's very lucky that he hasn't got his legs pulled out from underneath him. Just because a technique is old doesn't make it any good.

[bawang]

train bjj, call it ditangquan.

PROBLEM SOLVED

[Yum Cha]

In an MMA enviroment, that well get you "overhanded" in the next day.
Over extending like that will also motivate the opponent to "slip and take your back" as opposed to going for the shoot.

Talking about something that looks like a traditional college wrestler's stance?

[Yum Cha]

the Tai Chi guy could have learned to grab for a guillotine and fall back taking the guy into guard as he's going down, or learned how to underhook and rotate the attack to the side, roll the opponent and then drop into side control....

or even sprawl..?

And then there's the striking.

[Frost]

the Tai Chi guy could have learned to grab for a guillotine and fall back taking the guy into guard as he's going down, or learned how to underhook and rotate the attack to the side, roll the opponent and then drop into side control....

or even sprawl..?

And then there's the striking.

guillotine wouldn't have worked the guy passed straight to the side on every takedown and bypassed the guys legs nicely, underhook and rotate also probably wouldnt have worked, thats used on higher shots, this guy was coming in low and fast, sprawl would have been the way to...as well as actually learning how to fight lol

[MightyB]

I want to know how you think this guy could win the fight using his style against the white belt BJJ guy.


He could learn how to sprawl to avoid the takedown, and then pick up some basic boxing skills. That should be enough to beat a BJJ white belt. :eek:

[MightyB]

The BJJ white belt actually is the one who angers me... he seemed too hurried on the ground and failed to establish a dominant position before rushing into a couple of poorly executed arm bar attemps. He didn't even try for the Americana that was clearly there - he never went for full mount, which was there... and no relaxation or breath control at all on the ground. <slaps head>

He made this fight too hard on himself. Should've ended it with the first takedown!

[bawang]

an internal guy told me he invited a bjj guy to "demonstrate" some techniques, then suckered him and tore up his arm.


this is classic internal combat technique.

[Lucas]

i carry pouch if chili powder, and throw it in your eye.

[IronFist]

The BJJ white belt actually is the one who angers me... he seemed too hurried on the ground and failed to establish a dominant position before rushing into a couple of poorly executed arm bar attemps. He didn't even try for the Americana that was clearly there - he never went for full mount, which was there... and no relaxation or breath control at all on the ground. <slaps head>

He made this fight too hard on himself. Should've ended it with the first takedown!

You won wrong!

[bawang]

i carry pouch if chili powder, and throw it in your eye.

when someone try to ground and pound me, i urinate.

[Scott R. Brown]

when someone try to ground and pound me, i urinate.

You are supposed to poop your pants. Anyone who can stand the smell is inhuman!

If he still won't get off of you, take a handful and throw it in his face!

[bawang]

You are supposed to poop your pants. Anyone who can stand the smell is inhuman!

If he still won't get off of you, take a handful and throw it in his face!

you knuckle headed kickboxers cant understand. defecation is used for rear naked choke, not front mount. if you trained real tcma you would know this.



in shaolin kung fu this is called "yellow dragon stirs the water"

[Raipizo]

you knuckle headed kickboxers cant understand. defecation is used for rear naked choke, not front mount. if you trained real tcma you would know this.



in shaolin kung fu this is called "yellow dragon stirs the water"

Lmao, doing on command must take years of training

[MightyB]

you won wrong!

;)
..........

[CYMac]

I can beat that guy down, you guys have to believe me. period. I kick his S.

[MightyB]

I can beat that guy down, you guys have to believe me. period. I kick his S.

well, you have a camera - and this place (http://www.linmartialarts.com/BJJ-Markham-Toronto-Richmond-Hill.html) is near Markham, Toronto - so why don't you go there, tell them that you'd like to tape yourself kicking the s out of one of their white belts and have a go. Please tape it and let us watch.

[CYMac]

well, you have a camera - and this place (http://www.linmartialarts.com/BJJ-Markham-Toronto-Richmond-Hill.html) is near Markham, Toronto - so why don't you go there, tell them that you'd like to tape yourself kicking the s out of one of their white belts and have a go. Please tape it and let us watch.

No I don't need to, because I don't get paid doing it. :) you just HAVE to believe me. because I am STRONG.

[WangBazi]

http://shanghaiist.com/2012/06/02/luka-rocco-magnotta-lin-jun.php


Before he got caught he did a try run with Cymac. Stopped short of eating him.

[Faruq]

He could use Chen style! :"As for Yang style taiji, after it went to Beijing to be taught to the royal family, they took the fajin out. Those people are lazier. They didn't want to learn that. They just wanted to cultivate taiji for health. So they made it slower."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=822

"An Intrusion boosts the Tour
Two days later, to cap off the official welcoming, several hundred guests were invited to a banquet to honor the Chinese masters and their entourage. Among the guests were dignitaries from the country's sports organizations, local martial arts masters and aficionados. The dinner went smoothly with the usual long toasts. Just at the close of the dinner, three of the guests approached the elevated platform of the honored guests. They openly asked if what they saw about his martial skills on TV was true. They said that they were longtime judo practitioners and asked if they could test it. Chen Xiaowang, having eaten and drunk heartily, was not inclined to oblige but did not know how to decline. Invoking a well-lined belly as an excuse would be silly. A martial artist should be ever ready. So he beckoned them to come. Two of them proceeded forward and were allowed to do twisted chicken-wing locks on each of his arms behind his back. Without drama, Chen Xiaowang freed his arms. Dismayed and hardly content with this abrupt and anticlimactic end to their challenge, they nevertheless bowed to salute and thank the master. But as Chen Xiaowang turned to return to his table, the third judo person, who was standing by his side, suddenly grabbed Chen Xiaowang's right arm from behind, and tried to execute a judo throw on him. The dignitaries and guests were aghast with their jaws open. In unison they gestured, their eyes glued to the scene. The admonishment they exclaimed seemed stuck in their throats. In a flash, to the great relief of the organizers and guests, the attacker was seen flying and falling several feet away. The anxiety that had built up to a pitch in that brief moment gave way instantly to a thunderous applause of approval and appreciation to witness such a real-life martial feat..."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=380

[pazman]

...cool anecdotal story, bro.....


Yep, cheap, fanciful stories really would have helped the loser in the first video.:rolleyes:

[xinyidizi]

I found someone to do the double-leg takedown on me and it seems that attacking the back of his head or spine while stepping backward was very easy to do(using xinyi's qiluo dapi or tayi). The guy I trained with wasn't as fast as that guy in the original video but I don't think it's that hard to train defense against this technique. I would go down but could easily attack the opponent's back or head in the meantime. Probably a more professional guy could get faster in doing that but again training fast and powerful defense against it is much easier. I wonder if the BJJ guy would still use this technique if his back wasn't protected by the rules of the competition.

[Bacon]

I found someone to do the double-leg takedown on me and it seems that attacking the back of his head or spine while stepping backward was very easy to do(using xinyi's qiluo dapi or tayi). The guy I trained with wasn't as fast as that guy in the original video but I don't think it's that hard to train defense against this technique. I would go down but could easily attack the opponent's back or head in the meantime. Probably a more professional guy could get faster in doing that but again training fast and powerful defense against it is much easier. I wonder if the BJJ would still use this technique if his back wasn't protected by the rules of the competition.

Honestly unless you can defend the take down to begin with you'll have no chance to strike.

Let's put it this way. The guy was taken down at will, hit at will, knocked down, dominated on the ground and standing up, then choked out. Considering he couldn't land a single shot...

What could he have done? Well I have a list:
1. Spar
2. Learn to sprawl and defend the takedown so he doesn't get owned on the ground
3. Learn how to actually strike and defend strikes.

But since this thread is TLDR material I'm guessing that's already been suggested.