Can and Can't

[YouKnowWho]

If your technique fail against an opponent like this guy:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab286/timeminer/BrockLesnarWall.jpg

it's because

1. You are not strong enough, and not because your opponent is too strong. You willl need to be stronger.
2. Your opponent is too strong, and not because you are not strong enough. To be stronger won't help.

Which attitude do you prefer to have?

[Subitai]

3rd option:

You haven't used your best weapon (your brain) ...

Thus without it, you forgot to realize that pride in your style or discipline is sometimes not enough and you may in fact need to use your head and get an equalizer VS such an unfair advantage.


OR bring out one of the old forum standbys like:

"Royce would choke him out"

Or

"I'd poke him in the eyes"

Or

"I'd do a deadly JUDO CHOP"


haha,

[YouKnowWho]

We have to assume that our monster opponent also knows how to fight "smart". It won't be fair to assume that a weak person is always smarter than a strong person. When everything are equal, strength will be the final judge.

If the monster opponent is good in

- eye poking,
- nuts kicking,
- neck twisting,
- knee cap crashing,
- finger nail bending,
- finger broken,
- yield,
- follow,
- sticky,
- borrow force,
- Sung,
- sensation,
- situational awareness,
- ...

Besides getting stronger and make yourself a monster, if anybody has different solution, I would like to learn that too.

Chinese always like to say, "to use 5 oz force to against 1000 lb force". What if your monster opponent also are good at using his 1000 lb force to against 100,000 lb force?

[Subitai]

Number 1# I was kinda joking but I can't believe you tried to pick up on this issue?

Being smart or smarter has nothing to do with what I said, it's just a tool.

"Equalizer" is the word in question and if a person reading it understands how it's being used in this context of discussion, then they would know it's a viable option.

Most extreme option: Gun

Your argument vs being smarter makes NO sense... since it IS IN FACT an equalizer.

Other type weapons: Sword or Knife

Yes the big dude can also have one, but UNLIKE empty hand methods (which are far more forgiving) you don't get many DO-overs. Same deal it's an Equalizer.

Meaning: How big or strong he is...is LESS of a concern VS than say empty handed.

I'm not trying to de-Rail your topic...but please don't force this angle of PRIDE in your style.

That's really what you're doing... you're trying to forceably say HOW do you achieve this within the confines of your discipline

Both your options only talk about strength...I suspect you're just waiting for people to chime in with "what about Technique"? For which i'm sure you've already lined up a bunch of answers.



I'm not against you in any way... but look at it this way, if I was a NERDY guy only wieghing 130lbs and I had to face this monster....

The only options you're giving me are being Pigeon holed by strength?

I'm simply pointing out that humans could kill a elephant when they put thier minds to it and equalized or took advantage of thier environment.

The latter part is a key hint by the way. Or are you NOW going to say that you have to fight him in a ring...and not in a random place in which you can use your environment ?

[xinyidizi]

We have to assume that our monster opponent also knows how to fight "smart". It won't be fair to assume that a weak person is always smarter than a strong person. When everything are equal, strength will be the final judge.

If the monster opponent is good in

- eye poking,
- nuts kicking,
- neck twisting,
- knee cap crashing,
- finger nail bending,
- finger broken,
- yield,
- follow,
- sticky,
- borrow force,
- Sung,
- sensation,
- situational awareness,
- ...

Size/muscle power is certainly one of the important factors but the problem is that there is always something that should be sacrificed for something else in terms of time and energy. Someone who needs to spend so much time and energy on building those muscles probably won't have the time or energy to train everything else equally. If he can manage to do that then he would be invincible but so far I haven't seen many examples for that.

Secondly even if it's just about muscle power, that kind of bodybuilders with those beautifully shaped big muscles are not necessarily the strongest.

[Robinhood]

We have to assume that our monster opponent also knows how to fight "smart". It won't be fair to assume that a weak person is always smarter than a strong person. When everything are equal, strength will be the final judge.

If the monster opponent is good in

- eye poking,
- nuts kicking,
- neck twisting,
- knee cap crashing,
- finger nail bending,
- finger broken,
- yield,
- follow,
- sticky,
- borrow force,
- Sung,
- sensation,
- situational awareness,
- ...

Besides getting stronger and make yourself a monster, if anybody has different solution, I would like to learn that too.

Chinese always like to say, "to use 5 oz force to against 1000 lb force". What if your monster opponent also are good at using his 1000 lb force to against 100,000 lb force?


If he was smart , he probably wouldn't need all those muscles, don't you think, unless he is doing sport fighting.

You know what they say, the bigger you are the harder you fall.

[IronFist]

Buncha nonsense in this thread.

That guy is stronger than everyone on this forum, and probably bigger than anyone that 99% of this forum has ever trained with. Almost everyone on this forum would crap their pants when a) they hit him and nothing happened and b) he muscled his way out of every grappling technique they tried. Since he is bigger and stronger than you, if your skill is not VASTLY superior to his you will lose.

Even skill, stronger wins.

Even strength, more skillful wins.

Big differences in strength can only be made up for by even bigger differences in skill.

Big differences in skill can only be made up for by even bigger differences in strength.

[IronFist]

Secondly even if it's just about muscle power, that kind of bodybuilders with those beautifully shaped big muscles are not necessarily the strongest.

Why is there this misconception that bodybuilders aren't strong?

Links/references to bodybuilders who aren't strong?

Sure, many bodybuilders aren't as strong as powerlifters, but they're much stronger than non-lifters.

[xinyidizi]

Yes my point is exactly that powerlifters are stronger but usually don't look like that.
Also if becoming like that would be a practical way of winning fights why is it that many of the other heavyweight ufc champions don't train that way and don't necessarily look like that?

Of course I am not saying that it's impossible and there are people who can become big, strong and skillful like that guy as it depends on a person's physique, height, ... but it's not what usually happens. Some people are born to be monsters and training to look like them doesn't necessarily solve the problem. One has to spend moderate time on all aspects and there are limit to everyone's ability that one should accept.

[David Jamieson]

First of all, 185lb little old me is not going to go toe to toe with brock leznar.

But if I was faced with an aggressive and obviously muscular and strong 250+lb individual then I have to think about how to hurt him, how to hurt him bad and how to hurt him bad fast so that he cannot hurt me.

So, weapons come to mind immediately to that end. A baseball bat at the very least, a gun at the most.

Don't even try to box a monster. The brain should tell you to escape that action! If unable to escape, you have to ramp up to high damage infliction mode.

Don't forget he wants to hurt you too and if you cannot hurt him bad enough to stop, you'll have to work even harder and that decreases your chance of rapid success. The longer you are going at it with someone bigger, stronger and in better condition than you, the more your chances go down the hole.

go for the joints or really really hard to the head.

[ginosifu]

Buncha nonsense in this thread.

That guy is stronger than everyone on this forum, and probably bigger than anyone that 99% of this forum has ever trained with. Almost everyone on this forum would crap their pants when a) they hit him and nothing happened and b) he muscled his way out of every grappling technique they tried. Since he is bigger and stronger than you, if your skill is not VASTLY superior to his you will lose.

Even skill, stronger wins.

Even strength, more skillful wins.

Big differences in strength can only be made up for by even bigger differences in skill.

Big differences in skill can only be made up for by even bigger differences in strength.

No matter how you slice it..... A guy that big and strong will probably muscle out of most everyones techniques. Use your brains...... A monkey can not go toe to toe with a tiger. You need strategy / trickery / deception and speed !

You may just wany to run from this guy. Best is to avoid a confrontation with a hulk like this. If you are to confront him then....stay moving, don't get grappled by him. Try maybe using feints and speedy movements to attack vulnerable points from a distance (groin, knee, eye etc).

If I was worried about dying... then I would pick up anything I could (rocks, sticks, tire iron, broom stick etc) that was lying available. I don't beleive in guns but shooting him is defenately an option.

YouKnowWho.... is this a life or death situation? or a sports match? If it is a life or death situation then get a gun and shoot him. If it is a competition then , I want my money back cuz he is definately not in my weight class.

ginosifu

[Drake]

Hulk Smash?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Size and strength are HUGE factors, HUGE I SAY !!
LOL !
On all seriosuness.
You can't underestimate the factor of size and strength.
Having fought full contact with no weight limits all I can say is that it is NOT something that I want to do unless I have to.
IN "the street" I've fought big guys ( small guys like me hardly ever fight guys that are NOT bigger) and I have used a variety of methods:
Striking ( regardless of the size, ANYONE can get KO'd)
Choking (regardless of the size, anyone can be choked BUT big guys with huge necks take a LOT longer to go down AND they throw you around like a rag doll).
Throwing is a big no, but tripping and sweeping, yes.
The only advantage MAY be that the big guy doesn't think you can hurt him.

The reality is this though:
When fighting a bigger and stronger opponent, every single strike MUST do damage or he will make you pay very fast and with much pain.

[SimonM]

Hulk Smash?

Yes, Hulk Smash.

Good Hulk.

Seriously, I fought a guy with arms almost as big as Lesnar's once - he didn't have Lesnar's height or weight though.

He cleaned my clock right quick. That knockout I mention sometimes where I lost a wisdom tooth even with my mouth guard in...

Yeah...

It was a big guy like that.

So as somebody who stepped into the ring with somebody almost that intimidating and who got his ass subsequently handed to him trust me when I say best option is to not fight somebody who seriously outclasses you in muscle-mass unless you're prepared to bet pounded into the ground like a fencepost.

[bawang]

If your technique fail against an opponent like this guy:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab286/timeminer/BrockLesnarWall.jpg

it's because

1. You are not strong enough, and not because your opponent is too strong. You willl need to be stronger.
2. Your opponent is too strong, and not because you are not strong enough. To be stronger won't help.

Which attitude do you prefer to have?

your argument is flawed and self insulting. why not have the attitude "i will be stronger than him"?

[IronFist]

This is the kind of thing where McDojos tell their students things like "size doesn't matter" and "use his own strength against him" and "big muscles make you slow."

I've been there :o

False confidence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the kind of thing where McDojos tell their students things like "size doesn't matter" and "use his own strength against him" and "big muscles make you slow."

I've been there :o

False confidence.

I recall the first time I heard that ( as a kid) and though to myself " is this guy on drugs?"
Yep, they are.
I remember in Judo, asking my sensei if size mattered and he answered, " we have weight divisions don't we?".

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BVQShQaJ7Gc/TzF0df9Il6I/AAAAAAAAAL8/wPqnweI6xvc/s1600/size-matters-sometimes.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for strength, have you guys seen the built and size of some of these world class judokas?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Judo
Teddy Riner
6'8, 306 lbs


http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8445/59314111592592230437109.jpg

[SimonM]

He's a big guy.

Oh, and Judo remains my #1 favorite JMA. It's one of the best wrestling systems out there period.

And even Judo has McDojos.

[YouKnowWho]

We have some big Chinese wrestler too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtWIck4a67M

[YouKnowWho]

your argument is flawed and self insulting. why not have the attitude "i will be stronger than him"?

That's exactly the attitude that I always have in my life. If I have enough, I won't need to borrow.

[bawang]

That's exactly the attitude that I always have in my life. If I have enough, I won't need to borrow.

brock lesnar takes steroids. if you take steroids, you can also get on his level.

if you dont take steroids, nothing you do will take you to his level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

brock lesnar takes steroids. if you take steroids, you can also get on his level.

if you dont take steroids, nothing you do will take you to his level.

Sure, take steroids, be a genetic freak and high caliber wrestler.

[IronFist]

Sure, take steroids, be a genetic freak and high caliber wrestler.

You have to be careful with that stuff.

One time I lifted a weight and the next day I woke up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I didn't want to get "too big" but only one training session did it :o

Same thing with wrestling. I had to stop taking wrestling classes because I accidentally got too good. They wanted me to compete in the Olympics after only a week of training.

People say I'm a genetic freak but I think I just train hard.

That's Animal.

Can you handle it?

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[Lee Chiang Po]

If your technique fail against an opponent like this guy:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab286/timeminer/BrockLesnarWall.jpg

it's because

1. You are not strong enough, and not because your opponent is too strong. You willl need to be stronger.
2. Your opponent is too strong, and not because you are not strong enough. To be stronger won't help.

Which attitude do you prefer to have?

Reality comes to mind. We train our skills that we might have a bit of advantage over others of like size and fitness. If they are trained to fight then our own skills need to be even greater. Size and strength will always come in to unbalance the situation. A fellow can indeed get way too big to handle. This is why there are weapons included in most TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have to be careful with that stuff.

One time I lifted a weight and the next day I woke up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I didn't want to get "too big" but only one training session did it :o

Same thing with wrestling. I had to stop taking wrestling classes because I accidentally got too good. They wanted me to compete in the Olympics after only a week of training.

People say I'm a genetic freak but I think I just train hard.

That's Animal.

Can you handle it?

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Same here... sucks to be the descendents of Gods, doesn't it Bro? :D

[Frost]

Same here... sucks to be the descendents of Gods, doesn't it Bro? :D

i thought gods were taller....:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

i thought gods were taller....:D

:mad:
Don't make me stand on a chair and jump kick you in the ankle !

[mooyingmantis]

I think an important point has been missed here, mental strength. You are assuming that because someone is big, they can take a punch. That is not necessarily true.

I believe in physical toughness which is a step above just strength. I have fought bigger guys and beaten then. I have been beaten by average guys who were just mentally tough.

In the 80s I trained with another TCMA guy who was very strong. He had been a college football player. His martial arts skill was not that impressive and the school he trained in did not allow sparring of any type. He supplemented his training with challenge matches and bar fights. But his greatest skill was his mental toughness. He was fearless and no matter what I hit him with, he didn't even blink.

I have been supplementing my martial arts training with bodybuilding and strength training for almost twenty years. My sifu, Mike Biggie, started martial arts training a few years after I did. He is smaller than me in height and I weigh about 75 pounds more than he does. My chest is probably 10 inches bigger than his. Yet, I still have no intention of ever ****ing him off. :) What he lacks in the above areas, he makes up for in skill and mental toughness.

[Frost]

:mad:
Don't make me stand on a chair and jump kick you in the ankle !

"dont get short with me frodo"......points for anyone who gets the film reference

[sanjuro_ronin]

"dont get short with me frodo"......points for anyone who gets the film reference

Take it easy Gandolf.

[SimonM]

I think an important point has been missed here, mental strength. You are assuming that because someone is big, they can take a punch. That is not necessarily true.

I know some big guys who can't fight... but we're sort of talking about fighters with a size advantage, not random dudes on the street.

Say what you will about Brock Lesnar, but I don't think anybody who comes out of theatrical wrestling and into UFC lacks mental toughness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know some big guys who can't fight... but we're sort of talking about fighters with a size advantage, not random dudes on the street.

Say what you will about Brock Lesnar, but I don't think anybody who comes out of theatrical wrestling and into UFC lacks mental toughness.

He was also a high caliber wrestler before the WWE.

[Frost]

He was also a high caliber wrestler before the WWE.

alot of those pro wrestlers were and are very hard men, and im not just talking about the old hookers like billy robinson but even the guys from the 80's who never had a real fight ....the stories they used to tell and the road wariors when on tour, vador and the rest, scary

[Frost]

Take it easy Gandolf.

close i was thinking mean machine with adam sandler...since we were talking about big guys lol

[SimonM]

SR, Frost, true on both points.

The thing with theatrical wrestling is that even if the fights are staged the stunts can still be painful to execute.

Anybody here ever had a folding chair broken over their backs?

[Frost]

SR, Frost, true on both points.

The thing with theatrical wrestling is that even if the fights are staged the stunts can still be painful to execute.

Anybody here ever had a folding chair broken over their backs?

what you have are highly skilled athletes, who are very very strong, who have a very high pain threshold and who dont mind hurting people
I dont care if its fake i still wouldnt stand in front of one of them

[SimonM]

Being mildly insane about these sorts of things I would...

But I'd expect to lose. ;)

[Frost]

Being mildly insane about these sorts of things I would...

But I'd expect to lose. ;)

lol i used to train with a english pro wrestler who tried out for the WWF as it was back then, he came to our submission wrestling class a few times, he was 6,4 about 240 very athletic and strong and had surprisingly good technique, stephanie McMahon told him to make it he needed to add 30 pounds of muscle and come back lol

Alot of the pro wrestlers over here double as doormen and muscle for people, hell if you are very big strong and like to fight what else you going to do, and i know the likes of rick rude even when in the WWF made extra money did that kind of work too, people forget things like that lol most of the guys are spotted doing doorowrk and the like, shamous was talent spotted in dublin doing the doors for example, ust because the sports fake doesnt mean the guys are

[Jimbo]

Not to get too OT, but a few years ago, some TV sports reporter stated that pro wrestling is so fake that anyone, even himself, could do it. So he was invited to one of the pro wrestling schools to give it a try. The guy only lasted a few minutes before he begged off after taking a couple body slams, shoulder bumps, and "running the ropes" (which are actually steel cables) a few times. He said he couldn't believe how much it actually hurts.

I also remember reading something about Ken Shamrock saying he felt that MMA fighting was actually less dangerous, injury-wise, than pro wrestling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got to train with the Hart family years ago when they did a seminar in Toronto.
Gene LeBell was a pro wrestler.
Enough said.

[Frost]

Not to get too OT, but a few years ago, some TV sports reporter stated that pro wrestling is so fake that anyone, even himself, could do it. So he was invited to one of the pro wrestling schools to give it a try. The guy only lasted a few minutes before he begged off after taking a couple body slams, shoulder bumps, and "running the ropes" (which are actually steel cables) a few times. He said he couldn't believe how much it actually hurts.

I also remember reading something about Ken Shamrock saying he felt that MMA fighting was actually less dangerous, injury-wise, than pro wrestling.

hulk hogazn, hardly a really good wrestler almost crippled a tv host who said the same thing, it cost the company millions in damages

[Frost]

I got to train with the Hart family years ago when they did a seminar in Toronto.
Gene LeBell was a pro wrestler.
Enough said.

actually i can beat that...billy robinson :)

now the threat is closed, gene was good but billy was freaky scary and still in even in his 70's

[David Jamieson]

what you have are highly skilled athletes, who are very very strong, who have a very high pain threshold and who dont mind hurting people
I dont care if its fake i still wouldnt stand in front of one of them


Yep, look what happened to that ass hat john stossel...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrX9Ca7LSyQ

lol, priceless! :p

[Lucas]

now thats a ***** slap

[wushuaddict]

I think, at some point in weight difference, it becomes very unlikely or next to impossible for someone who is much smaller or lower in weight can actually beat an opponent of much greater weight. If the two fighters are equally skilled in martial arts, the heavier fighter, IMHO, will almost always win. I've fought people who've had 20+ lbs on me and really felt at a distinct disadvantage. I've also fought people much smaller and lower in weight and felt like I had much more control of the fight because of the size advantage. In this case, if Brock Lesnar looks like he's going to pound me, I'd definitely tighten my laces and bolt for the nearest exit. =]