WCK and White Crane of Fujian connection

[Hendrik]

The following is the evidence of White Crane of Fujian is one of the mother of the SLT or the core of the Wing Chun Kuen.

at 2.20, 2.24 the hand technic of Fong Chi -Niang the founder of White Crane of Fujian statue in Fujian is the Zhao Yang Sau or the Facing Sun Hand. One can see the important of this hand in the White Crane of Fujian to be presented in the Fong Chi-Niang's statue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-IYJOS-cBw&feature=share






1, This hand exist in the Wing Chun 1850 Yik Kam SLT. at 13.45

企掌屈肘單昭陽
Erect Palm bend elbow singer Zhao Yang ( clear sun or called as facing sun)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_fopYOrJd0


This hand is not Tan Sau, as in the begining of this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c61nbu-ZnW8&feature=relmfu






2, The same hand and name Zhao Yang 昭陽 also exist in the Wayne's Snake and Crane Wing Chun from the Red Boat.


See, Waynes Yung , IntroductionToSCWC-HandTechniques in New Martial Hero magazine Hong Kong

On Ton Kiu ( Swallow bridge) and Zhao Yang Palm



With this we can conclude 100% certain the White Crane and WCK SLT connection.

[Hendrik]

With The following verification, we also 100% sure Emei 12 Zhuang is another mother of the core of WCK the SLT.


http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-snake-and-crane-emei-connection/#more-40



0.30 is the Tracing the Taiji Circle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts

[Hendrik]

Thus, by evidences, across the Red Boat related WCK lineages, we know the Fujian Crane and Emei snake connection are solid facts.

[JPinAZ]

Dude, you really are trying to hard at all of this. Your 'proof' is some hand shape on a statue compared to some clips you made up yourself?!?!? :eek:
And then you follow it up with a Taiji clip? :confused:

And then you say this is proof of solid 'fact'? HAHAHA, thanks for the laugh.. some researcher

[GlennR]

Dude, you really are trying to hard at all of this. Your 'proof' is some hand shape on a statue compared to some clips you made up yourself?!?!? :eek:
And then you follow it up with a Taiji clip? :confused:

And then you say this is proof of solid 'fact'? HAHAHA, thanks for the laugh.. some researcher

I'll be honest, i read this and watched the clips, i think he's lost all objectivity in all his theories......... thats the single worst case for an argument ive ever seen

[LoneTiger108]

I'll be honest, i read this and watched the clips, i think he's lost all objectivity in all his theories...

I remember visiting the Wong Fei Hung museum when the Ip Man Tong first opened in Fatshan and seeing old photos of guys doing, what looked like, the stick and knife interactions that I learnt, with the same type of weaponry too. I concluded that my lineage must have been influenced by Hung Gar Kuen, or maybe my Sigung knew some of this stuff as it was presented right there in front of me to see (and the World of tourists!)

Then, in the Ip Man Tong there was a great big wall poster that all attendees signed, including me, and it was one of the exact same pictures from the WFH Museum. So it led me to think 'who has influenced who exactly?'

Look at the 'story' of Fujian White Crane and just take note of the similarities to our own Wing Chun/Ng Miu 'legends'
http://www.martialarm.com/history/whitecrane.html

I like a bit of research just like the next man, but I can see where Hendrik (and many many others) seem to hit brick walls as he does tend to reach conclusions through very loose similarities or connections, and this is one of the same cases here.

It's even more interesting that when you type the characters 昭 陽 into google translate and ask it to detect the language, it primarily sees it as a Japanese term :eek: I haven't found it do this with the vast characters and lines I have translated.

FWIW I was taught this hand 'position' and I agree, it isn't a Tansau. It's one of the most fundamental Buddhist gestures that has been 'adopted' for more Martial uses :) One of the latest incarnations of this is actually used a lot by this man in the UK so maybe we need to consider Fukiens 'political' state with Buddhism at the time of Miss Fung ;)

http://static.nme.com/images/gallery/DavidCameronPA161210.jpg

[JPinAZ]

I'll be honest, i read this and watched the clips, i think he's lost all objectivity in all his theories......... thats the single worst case for an argument ive ever seen

I think the most shocking thing is he bases all his conclusion in this thread on a friggin technique on a statue. WCK isn't about the techniques or shapes, it's about the concepts/principles - something he failed to even hint at.
When you start looking at those, he would see that WCK is very different than White Crane at it's core.

And I would say yes, all southern Chinese MA's will have similarities (some bigger, some smaller) as it was a big melting pot hundreds of years ago, so they will share similar shapes and even ideas on fighting. But just because someone can see 1 similar shape and say 'see, this comes from this' shows the commenter doesn't have a clue about what WCK, or even TCMA's, are even about.

this is the problem with someone that doesn't do any actual partner training or sparring in his art and spends most of his time wasted by looking for the lost grail in other art's pictures and videos online where he gets his 'facts' from ;)

[Hendrik]

It's even more interesting that when you type the characters 昭 陽 into google translate and ask it to detect the language, it primarily sees it as a Japanese term :eek: I haven't found it do this with the vast characters and lines I have translated.

FWIW I was taught this hand 'position' and I agree, it isn't a Tansau. It's one of the most fundamental Buddhist gestures that has been 'adopted' for more Martial uses :) One of the latest incarnations of this is actually used a lot by this man in the UK so maybe we need to consider Fukiens 'political' state with Buddhism at the time of Miss Fung ;)

[/IMG]

Zhao yang is an old Chinese term uses 1850 and before. A white crane of fujian particular term and refer to a white crane momentum. The term and technic appear in different older pre 1900 WCK lineage is a solid evidence of connection.

[LoneTiger108]

Zhao yang is an old Chinese term uses 1850 and before.

But what is your english translation?


The term and technic appear in different older pre 1900 WCK lineage is a solid evidence of connection.

And what is your wing chun term for this palm gesture?

[Hendrik]

But what is your english translation?



And what is your wing chun term for this palm gesture?

All in my previous post and the video clip,

[guy b.]

Terrible example of white crane.

[Paddington]

Is Hendrik actually any good at wing chun? Has anyone chi sau'ed with him?

I am not trying to be confrontational by asking this. Just I have yet to see or hear of any evidence that Hendrik is actually able to practically apply his ideas, in a chi sau or sparring context. To my mind at least unless I can roll with him or view his forms and chi sau, I just cannot take what he says seriously.

EDIT: Recent financial changes mean that I might actually be able to go and visit him to find out by myself, around Christmas time. I guess I have a WSL attitude to assessing peoples ideas :)

[wingchunIan]

Is Hendrik actually any good at wing chun? Has anyone chi sau'ed with him?

I am not trying to be confrontational by asking this. Just I have yet to see or hear of any evidence that Hendrik is actually able to practically apply his ideas, in a chi sau or sparring context. To my mind at least unless I can roll with him or view his forms and chi sau, I just cannot take what he says seriously.

EDIT: Recent financial changes mean that I might actually be able to go and visit him to find out by myself, around Christmas time. I guess I have a WSL attitude to assessing peoples ideas :)
Let us know how you get on, but be careful of that Yik Kam Transform process, you never know just what you might transform into :D

[wingchunIan]

FWIW I love Hendrick's enthusiasm and think its great that there are a blend of views etc on the art of Wing Chun. In all fairness having visited the Emei region I can't help but feel that wing chun probably is decended from Emei (not the currently practised stuff) rather than Shaolin or Wudang but it was a long time ago. As for snakes and cranes, engines and six directional vectors I'm far from convinced but to each his own. This particular piece just made me laugh. I can show you pictures of old english bare knuckle fighters standing in a way that looks almost identical to wing chun biu ma, so by this logic wing chun is decended from english bare knuckle boxers, and the list could be endless.

[LoneTiger108]

Let us know how you get on, but be careful of that Yik Kam Transform process, you never know just what you might transform into :D

I've always been under the impression that once you have tried the YKT methods you become a Vampire!! Or at least that's what Hendrik has promised :D ;)

It's all great stuff to even have a little access into the many minds that are interested in researching a 'truer' origin of Wing Chun but sometimes I do feel that it is a fruitless pursuit. I prefer to concentrate on the 'now' and source facts about people who are known to have contributed their lives to the promotion of Wing Chun. In the UK for example, there are countless older generations who clock up over 30 years in the system and to be fair they have all heard many of these stories before so anything presented by new 'researchers' will be taken with a grain of salt. Too many destructive stories have divided us before to let it all happen again, and again and again.

From my learning the origin of Wing Chun is held in our blades, which is why they're referred to (or used to be referred to!) as Jun San Bo, an oldskool Treasure, Jun San being an old term for mountain range areas that are 'politically' active and in most cases this meant that there were bands of Martial Art brotherhoods hidden somewhere fighting and defending something or someone!

So I too can see connections to Emei, Shaolin and Wudang especially (considering Mo Dong San / Wudang Shan) literally means Active Martial Mountain! :)

[Hendrik]

FWIW I love Hendrick's enthusiasm and think its great that there are a blend of views etc on the art of Wing Chun. In all fairness having visited the Emei region I can't help but feel that wing chun probably is decended from Emei (not the currently practised stuff) rather than Shaolin or Wudang but it was a long time ago. As for snakes and cranes, engines and six directional vectors I'm far from convinced but to each his own. This particular piece just made me laugh. I can show you pictures of old english bare knuckle fighters standing in a way that looks almost identical to wing chun biu ma, so by this logic wing chun is decended from english bare knuckle boxers, and the list could be endless.

The term Zhao Yang for the tcma is a very specific symbolic term. Historically,
It is one of the most early white crane 1600 term and technics , it is one of the 15 momentum type of the earliest teaching of the founder of the white crane of fujian.

So, it is not an old picture. It is an technnology platform such as the term Dos operating system.

[Hendrik]

Is Hendrik actually any good at wing chun? Has anyone chi sau'ed with him?

I am not trying to be confrontational by asking this. Just I have yet to see or hear of any evidence that Hendrik is actually able to practically apply his ideas, in a chi sau or sparring context. To my mind at least unless I can roll with him or view his forms and chi sau, I just cannot take what he says seriously.

EDIT: Recent financial changes mean that I might actually be able to go and visit him to find out by myself, around Christmas time. I guess I have a WSL attitude to assessing peoples ideas :)


Save your money, I am not interested in your idea, there are already many people who visit this forum haved visited me .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Evidence does NOT = proof.
That is all.
Good day.

[Hendrik]

Again,
The fujianese. White crane experts of the monument to Fang Qiniang would not have included the zhao yang Hand , if it was not of importance to the memory of the Founder and the art in all its forms.

[JPinAZ]

Again,
The fujianese. White crane experts of the monument to Fang Qiniang would not have included the zhao yang Hand , if it was not of importance to the memory of the Founder and the art in all its forms.

And has absolutely nothing to do with WCK.

Can you explain how comparring a simple picture of a statue to a video YOU made up along with and article Jim wrote a few years ago somehow proves a 'fact' that WCK came from white crane?

BTW, since someone brought up meeting with you, I am out your way twice a year and would like to come visit - wouldn't cost me a dime extra so you don't have to worry about the money. Will you accept my invite to meet?

[JPinAZ]

Is Hendrik actually any good at wing chun? Has anyone chi sau'ed with him?

I know Chi Sim grandmaster touched hands with Hendrik. Might ask Hendrik how that went and what his impression was. ;)

[Hendrik]

And has absolutely nothing to do with WCK.

Can you explain how comparring a simple picture of a statue to a video YOU made up along with and article Jim wrote a few years ago somehow proves a 'fact' that WCK came from white crane?

BTW, since someone brought up meeting with you, I am out your way twice a year and would like to come visit - wouldn't cost me a dime extra so you don't have to worry about the money. Will you accept my invite to meet?


1. The details has been explain above. There is no need to further repeat.

2. No interest in meeting you. Thanks.

[Paddington]

Save your money, I am not interested in your idea, there are already many people who visit this forum haved visited me .

Interesting, as previously you indicated you were open to the idea of rolling together. Never mind, eh?

[Hendrik]

Interesting, as previously you indicated you were open to the idea of rolling together. Never mind, eh?

Your goal changes , my mind changes. Thanks.

[trubblman]

Thus, by evidences, across the Red Boat related WCK lineages, we know the Fujian Crane and Emei snake connection are solid facts.

I cannot say I disagree with your conclusions. I am sure there was lots of sharing of information between martial artists. The fact that there is resemblance to me has to be more than a coincidence.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Throwing a punch like a cross or hook probably can be found in a lot of different fighting systems. That does not mean that the systems are related or influenced by one another. Wing Chun, being that it is designed to comply with the machanics of the human body can probably be compared with a few techniques from other systems as well. This does not actually make them related or influenced by one another. I do not think white crane or anything else is related or connected to WCK in any way. It is a system designed by military fighting men for efficiency and effectiveness, and that can be taught and learned quickly and easily by large numbers of men, such as an army. White crane and others were the ideas of peasants and other individuals that were not really knowledgable about certain human factors, and so believed emulating animals would enhance their fighting abilities. Pure foolishness.

[EternalSpring]

Throwing a punch like a cross or hook probably can be found in a lot of different fighting systems. That does not mean that the systems are related or influenced by one another. Wing Chun, being that it is designed to comply with the machanics of the human body can probably be compared with a few techniques from other systems as well. This does not actually make them related or influenced by one another.

Agreed, I see similarities between Ving Tsun and many arts. I def think it is a bit biased for someone to focus on a few techniques in one art and think of them being connected to Ving Tsun when the same can be said for many other arts that also share similarities.

For example, perhaps this is not the same w/ all of their styles, but the Buka Jalan Silat and Penjat silat I train is so similar to Ving Tsun that I almost see Ving Tsun and Silat as two different ways of applying the same style.

[JPinAZ]

. I def think it is a bit biased for someone to focus on a few techniques in one art and think of them being connected to Ving Tsun...

Agreed. This type of thinking is very low level understanding about what WCK is (or isn't). WCK is not the techniques. Comparing a few techniques between arts and then claiming they are proof of 'fact' as which came from which shows a real lack of knowledge for what WCK is really about.

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Hendrik
1. The details has been explain above. There is no need to further repeat.

That's not true!
You always repeat yourself.

YKT-- the fifth layer 07-02-2012
Yik Kam STL basic 07-06-2012
YKT optional drill or the 5th drill Today, 04:04 PM
the 3 basic elements of force line power generation Today
YKT power type 07-26-2012
YKT -- the full instruction of the four drills 07-05-2012
Yik Kam STL part 2 section 1 and 2 07-11-2012
20 Channels and 6 directional force vectors 03-26-2011
playing with 5 layers 12-25-2011



Originally Posted by Hendrik
2. No interest in meeting you. Thanks.

Why not? Without meeting Paddington and JPinAZ, just keep talking to yourself in your own room. Then, how could you truly present yourself well in public? This is the time to pop the question, make a pitch, or stake out new territory. Forget your living room, and that may open a new door for you.

[JPinAZ]

2. No interest in meeting you. Thanks.

Figured this would be your response. Not interested in sharing your art with those that want to come see it? Ok then.. :rolleyes:
(sorry, but your long-winded videos with you moving your hands around in the air like a magician doesn't cut it)