Train for the street

[YouKnowWho]

When someone said, "You only train for the sport. You are not train for the street." What does he mean? How do you train the street situation? Go to a bar and pick up fights every might? How can you train for the street and not to have problem with the law?

Your thought?

[wenshu]

I've never encountered anyone on the street that had just spent the last 9 weeks training for 8 hours a day with the single minded focus of putting a hurt piece on me and me alone.

[Fa Xing]

One way we have trained JKD for more "street" situations is to spend time working drills from more natural positions, such as sitting, standing (especially in non-fighting postures). We do this in conjunction with "sport" sparring, and even putting on full-padding with groin strikes and head butts.

Obviously training with people on the actual streets is dangerous, at least here in the US, for legal and insurance reasons. But if you are friends training together, then it could be done, just be aware that it is a less controlled environment than a school.

[bawang]

I've never encountered anyone on the street that had just spent the last 9 weeks training for 8 hours a day with the single minded focus of putting a hurt piece on me and me alone.

its called prison

[Scott R. Brown]

its called prison

I worked for the prison system for 12 years. While some inmates are tough as nails, most fights I've watched the vids of were pretty pansy a$$.

What most inmates have is heart, and toughness. Many are not afraid to get shot or killed, but most don't have much skill.

[bawang]

What most inmates have is heart, and toughness.


this is my point

*clenches anus tightly

[mooyingmantis]

Training for the street in unarmed combat is no different than training for the street with firearms. Students are put in every possible scenario one can think of and then made to respond with force.

Fa Xing hit it right on the head.

My students train to respond from sitting, standing in a corner, small bathroom stall type areas, handcuffed, etc..

[RenDaHai]

What it means is when we train for a sport we spend all our time training offensive moves. And when you train defence, you train to defend just enough to still have a chance to counter attack quickly.

Those of you who have been attacked violently will be aware it is not always easy OR necessarily a good idea to immediately turn around a smack a guy you have never met before in the face.

Solid and conservative defence is so important. It gives you a chance to get your head around what is going on, buys you a second so you can make a decision. Being indecisive is a real big problem.

I have seen many fights where the person attacked doesn't even hit back. They don't realise till 10 minutes after that they should have. I tried to talk about this on another thread. This even happens to people who know how to fight.

If someone hits you and you start attacking them like you do in a ring fight, the law will not always be on your side. 'But I would rather be judged by 9 then carried by 6' is a stupid counter to this since the vast majority of fights are not life or death.



When you realise you don't actually want the ramifications of punching someone in the face, you freeze. And if your defence is based on counter attack but you can't counter, then your screwed.



Many people know this already but consider sport fighting more realistic because ' Attack is the best form of defence' Unfortunately most people who quote this advice have never been attacked and do not realise that this advice is conditional. It only applies if in order to win you must destroy the opponent. This is true in the ring, but it is NOT true in the real world. As the defender you do NOT have to destroy the opponent to win, you only have to survive as unscathed as possible. When you look at things like this it can be easier to make your combat decision. You think deciding not to destroy the opponent is weak? Trust me, when the blows are raining down it is something you will settle for gladly.


How to train? Put on a plastic face shield, make your opponent put on wraps (no gloves, too big, changes the guard) then make him hit you in the face as hard and as fast and in as quick combination as he can. Then you parry, dodge, shrink and dance. Off course in real life we may want to counter attack, but we don't want to compromise defence for it. If you can learn deflect a guy completely it will give you the time you need to make your decision, become committed to a course of action and do it.

[David Jamieson]

When someone said, "You only train for the sport. You are not train for the street." What does he mean? How do you train the street situation? Go to a bar and pick up fights every might? How can you train for the street and not to have problem with the law?

Your thought?

It is a saying that over time has become defunct. In relation to sport it would probably be in context to dirty moves such as crotch kicking, choking, hair pulling, clothing pulling, use of weapons, use of objects around you such as walls, windows, floors etc, ramming a dudes head into a wall for instance.

Having said that, in reality you train to find the advantage point through strength, power and dominance and most importantly you would have to be willing to do those things and perhaps pay the consequences as you point out.

Training should be difficult but useful. If it's neither of those, I'd stop training that. Fighting is fighting. Fighting dirty isn't trained for, you just have to be wiling to fight dirty.

[wenshu]

*clenches anus tightly

But that's what they want.

[SPJ]

street is

even the odds

run and dodge

use tools

---

:eek:

[Hebrew Hammer]

this is my point

*clenches anus tightly

Just like I remember...that's why I always had top bunk.

[wenshu]

What it means is when we train for a sport we spend all our time training offensive moves.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[xinyidizi]

How can you train for the street and not to have problem with the law?



Join the law. :cool:
or if you are in China join a powerful gang that can take care of the law for you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've never encountered anyone on the street that had just spent the last 9 weeks training for 8 hours a day with the single minded focus of putting a hurt piece on me and me alone.

And done.
Nothing more needs to be said really.
BUT, I will add just this part:
When you train for the potential street encounter, your training must include weapons, in particular knives, sticks, chains and guns.

[EarthDragon]

to me sport training and street training are different in many and obvious various ways. The most obvious is sport traning has a more gentlmens approach. You may be in a clinch waiting to see what your oppoent does without harming them, or wait for him to make a mistake and reverse. You may lay on the ground waitng and breathing but liying still wating for his to make his next move, you may be patient and realize this fight is not for life and death, there a referee and you can relax and catch your breath etc etc.

In street training I am looking to end the fight ASAP. I look for dirty thinks shoving my thumb in their eye, biting, ripping off someones ear, squeezing thier testicals, using debris found on the street. no relaxing just counter attack and run, or counter disable then run. break a bone or rip or tear a ligament then run etc etc. it is defiantly 2 different mind sets.

[RenDaHai]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Was answering question in post number one. In a ring the only way to win is to destroy the opponent, thus we train with attacking in mind. This is not true of the 'street' as their are many different ways to conclude an encounter. Thus when our focus is on attack we are likely to be training for sport. Or for mugging someone. Clearer?

[Shaolin]

I'm curious if anyone teaches their students or learns from their instructors how to avoid the conflict all together through micro-momentary expressions/body language or self-defense psychology?

If so what are a few examples you have learned in your training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

From John's other thread:
Guns are always a factor, same for knives and sticks.
My MA training takes into account:
Edge weapons
Impact weapons
Firearms.
I try to make it so that what I do VS an impact weapons like a stick, is the same as vs H2H ( the carryover is there).
Firearms changes a lot for obvious reasons.
I view the potential attack of any opponent as armed and since a blade is more dangerous than a stick and a stick more than a fist, I try to revolve my training around dealing with an edge weapon.

[hskwarrior]

I'm curious if anyone teaches their students or learns from their instructors how to avoid the conflict all together through micro-momentary expressions/body language or self-defense psychology?

My sifu calls it Mental Gung fu. so, yes, he's taught us, me alot about using mental gung fu to avoid the conflict.

what is mental gung fu.......? example. this guy follows me off the freeway into a grocery store parking lot. we get out of our cars and he starts bouncing around like he was bruce lee. I then in a very very animated fashion said "ooooo, its looks like you know .....KUNG FU!" this gave him some real confidence as he thought i was going to be terrified. I proceeded in my animated way and said "it looks like you're good, have some real skill". he replied "yeah, four years b1tch". Mind you i was at my 20 year mark at the time. so here is where i flipped the script on him. i stopped being anmited, looked at him dead in his eyes as i lifted my sleeves to my sweat shirt to show off my chinses letters on my forearms. then i asked him "did you ever stop to think.....maybe HE knows something too?"

the look on his face instantly changed as reality slapped the sh1t out of him. he apologized reached out to shake my hand then got back in his car and left. this is not the entire method of mental gung fu, just an example of one situation.

mental gung fu is getting into the mind of the person attempting to assault you.

[Lucas]

likewise there is offensive mental work. cassius clay/muhammad ali was a prime example.

[EarthDragon]

shaolin,
yes I teach adn have been taught situational awareness, I usually only teach this on a limited basis for men , but go into it in length fro woman as I used to teach a rape prevention class and this was one of the biggest parts of self defense for women.

[hskwarrior]

When you train for the potential street encounter, your training must include weapons, in particular knives, sticks, chains and guns.

Training for the street also includes sparring against multiple people at the same time. I have a wall drill where one of my students is placed against the wall and cannot leave it while being surrounded by 3 guys attacking and even trying to take them down to the ground.

i agree with the above, street training is about what sanjuro said but alot morethan that. i teach my guys how to use everyday items from books, backpacks, pens, belts, clothes, and even how to use a garbage can lid as a shield against a weapon carrying attacker.

street training includes lots of scenario situations typical of actual attacks on the street. but its not only about techniques, its about learning to read body language, get in touch with their senses, mental gung fu, all the way up to having a planned escape route for that just in case moment. we also focus alot on the dirty tricks to gain advantage immediately.

yet, to be able to teach fighting for the streets, you must know the streets or it will all be guesswork.

[hskwarrior]

On the streets, do you know whats even scarier than a psychotic aggressive attacker hellbent on hurting you? A HELLBENT PYSCHO AGGRESSIVE ATTACKER WHO IS POSSIBLY AIDS INFECTED AND IS SPEWING BLOOD IN ALL DIRECTIONS. true story.

[Lucas]

another aspect of real world encounters is what can happen AFTER you lose. curb stomping, head smashing, unconcsious beatings are very real, this is how some people die in fights. Not the fight itself, but what happens after...THIS is why, generally, your focus is on surviving, and escaping rather than finishing. Finishing is a means to survive and escape.

If you are like me, you dont go picking fights, you're good at not going to the wrong places, saying the wrong things, or putting out the wrong body language...meaning if you get in a fight, its very serious. If someone forces me into that situation, i WILL treat it as a threat to my safetly and life. Meaning I need to get away if at all possible. If I feel I cannot get away safely, and am in a position to take serious harm, I will pull my knife if I can, I will use it, and then I will run if I can.

A lot of people will look down on me for this, but I am not about to wait around for the law to show up so I can pay the consequences for being forced into protecting myself from someone who forced me into that situation. Whether or not I did or did not need to use a blade will not always be seen in the correct light in a court of law. Too many witnesses are the exception. But if I feel I can get away and not be followed up on by the police, I will.

[hskwarrior]

A lot of people will look down on me for this, but I am not about to wait around for the law to show up so I can pay the consequences for being forced into protecting myself from someone who forced me into that situation. Whether or not I did or did not need to use a blade will not always be seen in the correct light in a court of law. Too many witnesses are the exception. But if I feel I can get away and not be followed up on by the police, I will.

no, thats the smart thing to do. its when you freeze and then get the beat down is the huge issue. but some of us know we can fight so its like "lets do this" when it goes down. especially when you know you have your friends around to prevent being jumped.

however, if you're alone, the best thing to do is one look for the quickest and safest escape route while keeping your eye on the attacker or attackers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

another aspect of real world encounters is what can happen AFTER you lose. curb stomping, head smashing, unconcsious beatings are very real, this is how some people die in fights. Not the fight itself, but what happens after...THIS is why, generally, your focus is on surviving, and escaping rather than finishing. Finishing is a means to survive and escape.

If you are like me, you dont go picking fights, you're good at not going to the wrong places, saying the wrong things, or putting out the wrong body language...meaning if you get in a fight, its very serious. If someone forces me into that situation, i WILL treat it as a threat to my safetly and life. Meaning I need to get away if at all possible. If I feel I cannot get away safely, and am in a position to take serious harm, I will pull my knife if I can, I will use it, and then I will run if I can.

A lot of people will look down on me for this, but I am not about to wait around for the law to show up so I can pay the consequences for being forced into protecting myself from someone who forced me into that situation. Whether or not I did or did not need to use a blade will not always be seen in the correct light in a court of law. Too many witnesses are the exception. But if I feel I can get away and not be followed up on by the police, I will.

I always carry a knife (spyderco or emerson).
The second last thing I ever want to do is kill someone ( the last thing being, being killed by someone or seeing a loved one hurt be someone) but if I have no choice...

[Lucas]

definately dont want to kill anyone. at most i would want to put a hurt on...but the lame thing about cuts is a lot of times you dont feel them right away, especially if your hopped up on adrenaline and or drugs. i've pulled my knife on two people, both times that alone ended the problem. (they obviously didnt have a knife or didnt want a knife fight)

right now im carrying my crkt m-16, nothing fancy or special, but smooth and fast and a good lock on the blade.

[SimonM]

I generally don't carry a knife - I know enough about how to use them to not want to take the risk of killing or being killed over some stupid bull**** disagreement such as the price of a half-kilo of peanut honey cake.

[bawang]

or if you are in China join a powerful gang that can take care of the law for you.
the communist party?

[Lucas]

lol thats not what the blade is for man. first off, i dont argue with strangers over trivial things like, what ever that is you're talking about. the knife is there for when you do need it in that circumstance when you have no choice, you're forced into protecting yourself at a moments notice because you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. the 2 times i have pulled my knife were during unavoidable situations when i was walking home from work. everyones gotta get home.

if you havn't been mugged, assaulted, been involved in home invasion, been jumped by a gang, been a target of a hate crime, etc. you may not see the world the same way.

[JamesC]

the communist party?

I lol'd until I ****ed

[SimonM]

lol thats not what the blade is for man. first off, i dont argue with strangers over trivial things like, what ever that is you're talking about.

Seriously, the closest I've ever come to getting knifed was over precisely that piece of trivial nonsense. It was in China and I bought this stuff from a Uyghur. We disagreed over the price and he started reaching for his blade. I wasn't armed; had I been the chances that "started reaching" would have escalated would have been much worse.

As it was cooler heads (his friend and my wife) prevailed.

[bawang]

he wasnt really gonna stab you. they use this tactic to scare people into paying more.


every time they do it to me, i open my eyes wide and tell them hu jin tao is my uncle.

[Lucas]

hu jin tao is my uncle.

lol!!!!!!!!

[SimonM]

he wasnt really gonna stab you. they use this tactic to scare people into paying more.


Well that backfired on him then. I didn't pay more. :p

[bawang]

its only half a lie. hu jin tao came from my neighboring village, but they used to bully him during the cultural revlution. now hes super big shot he sh1ts all over us.


Well that backfired on him then. I didn't pay more. :p

nobody does lols

[Lucas]

Well that backfired on him then. I didn't pay more. :p

and you got the...stuff, the honey cakes or what ever?

[SimonM]

and you got the...stuff, the honey cakes or what ever?

Told you, my wife got involved.

That lady never saw a deal she couldn't sweeten - especially when peanuts and sugar were involved. ;)

[Lucas]

some women have super powers, i swear.

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/oxzb7.gif

[SimonM]

some women have super powers, i swear.

True. .....

[wenshu]

Was answering question in post number one. In a ring the only way to win is to destroy the opponent, thus we train with attacking in mind. This is not true of the 'street' as their are many different ways to conclude an encounter. Thus when our focus is on attack we are likely to be training for sport. Or for mugging someone. Clearer?

I get the point about aggression further down in your post and for the most part I agree that when you're sparring often in a sport context the answer to everything becomes a punch in the mouth when perhaps a little more tact is called for.

To say that to train for sport is to only train offence is a rather egregious generalization. Some fighters play it very safe and are only as aggressive as it takes to win a round. Moreover some of the greatest fighters in history have been known for very conservative tactics centered on effective defensive techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G5v_PNsl4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9en6g9JTQ


Even Tyson, who is obviously known for his aggression had an "impregnable defense"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZzMPsm6c4

[Lee Chiang Po]

When someone said, "You only train for the sport. You are not train for the street." What does he mean? How do you train the street situation? Go to a bar and pick up fights every might? How can you train for the street and not to have problem with the law?

Your thought?

When you train for the street it is all about technique. Most of the things you can't do in a ring with rules and a referee. Things that can seriously hurt someone, things that can keep you alive. And you do not have to go to bars and look for fights. In fact, fighting is about the worst way of trying to learn to fight street. You don't learn by fighting. You train to fight first, then you try to apply what you have learned. If fighting is learning, then you would never have to step into a kwoon. You wouldn't need to train in any system, just go to fighting until you had it all down. No, you learn to fight by training techniques that are usefull in a fight, then you try to apply them in a fight or during sparring or whatever.
Example. I think that in the ring the rules say to stay off small joints and fingers and such. In the street it is really easy to apply finger locks or even to break a finger for an opponent. Most people are seriously hindered when they have broken fingers. You don't have to be able to fly or jump tall buildings like in the movies. You just need to learn to fight dirty.

[RenDaHai]

To say that to train for sport is to only train offence is a rather egregious generalization. Some fighters play it very safe and are only as aggressive as it takes to win a round. Moreover some of the greatest fighters in history have been known for very conservative tactics centered on effective defensive techniques.

Even Tyson, who is obviously known for his aggression had an "impregnable defense"


Fair enough. It was a bit, just wanted to make the point. I realise you can play very defnesively, (and I am a big fan of tysons methods) but even when you do you do it is still with a very aggressive defence, with an eye to giving you lots of counter options as opposed to escape options.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i.imgur.com/oxzb7.gif

The VAST majority of KO's we see in the street are just that: sucker shots of one sort or another.

[EarthDragon]

in the street there is no such thing as a sucker shot, your either ready or your not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

in the street there is no such thing as a sucker shot, your either ready or your not.

Did you even read what you wrote dude, LOL !

[Lucas]

i sucker punched a guy once in the street (well more like the sidewalk). he never saw it coming!!

[hskwarrior]

a sucker punch is nothing other than a cheap shot while you're aren't ready. why is called sucker punch? cause you're a sucker for not being ready or aware.

[Scott R. Brown]

The VAST majority of KO's we see in the street are just that: sucker shots of one sort or another.

http://i.imgur.com/oxzb7.gif

Come On!!:mad: The Dude OBVIOUSLY tripped!!!:eek:

[Lucas]

a sucker punch is nothing other than a cheap shot while you're aren't ready. why is called sucker punch? cause you're a sucker for not being ready or aware.

whats funny is when a guy is acting all tough and chest bumping and getting in your face talking smack and they dont expect to get smacked in the mouth...its like....dude...how did you NOT know i was going to do that? sucker.

[Brule]

in the street there is no such thing as a sucker shot, your either ready or your not.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

In other news, there's no such thing as a groin shot, you either get kicked in the groin or you don't.:(

[Lucas]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

In other news, there's no such thing as a groin shot, you either get kicked in the groin or you don't.:(

I thot you were gonna say; 'either you have a groin or you dont' :eek:

[Brule]

Could go with that also.

[Lucas]

Thailand!!

[hskwarrior]

whats funny is when a guy is acting all tough and chest bumping and getting in your face talking smack and they dont expect to get smacked in the mouth...its like....dude...how did you NOT know i was going to do that? sucker.

cause he's so intent on making you believe he is tougher than you. but a true sucker punch is always out of your line of site.

[Lucas]

cause he's so intent on making you believe he is tougher than you. but a true sucker punch is always out of your line of site.

like an uppercut when the guy is close enough to kiss ;)

[ginosifu]

When someone said, "You only train for the sport. You are not train for the street." What does he mean? How do you train the street situation? Go to a bar and pick up fights every might? How can you train for the street and not to have problem with the law?

In traditional kung fu, all of your training is for the street. Solo drills, partner drills, self defense techniques, bag work, footwork drills, sparring, fighting, San Shou, Shuai Chiao all are to prepare you for the uncertainty of the street.

I have told this story here before..... A guy was beating his wife, I stepped in front of her so he could not hit her any more. He swung a right hook at me and I immediately blocked with my left claw and applied a right claw to his throat. He backed down from there.

I did what my training prepared me to do. What else can we do but, to practice the best we can for the possible situations that we may encounter.

ginosifu

[hskwarrior]

like an uppercut when the guy is close enough to kiss

or even a nut shut. here is one thing i teach my students. out here, people get in your face nose to nose sometimes trying to intimidate you. they get that crazy look in their eye and try to man up on you ....eye to eye.

9 times out of ten, he is more focused on trying to get you to punk out, BOOM

a shot to the nuts with all you got. watch him drop like a sack of potato's.

[Lucas]

Too true. Most times if a guy wants to put a hurt on, he wont talk, he'll walk up to you and just start unloading, or he'll rush you and unload. the talkers talk, the fighters fight.

usually...but of course not always.

[hskwarrior]

Too true. Most times if a guy wants to put a hurt on, he wont talk, he'll walk up to you and just start unloading, or he'll rush you and unload. the talkers talk, the fighters fight.

growing up in the streets most of the lessons you learn are nothing more than common sense. like don't go into another neighborhood alone if you are worried about getting jumped. but the one thing that will get you, and i see this with this influx of "HISPSTERS" infesting my old neighborhood, the victims of violent attacks are usually the white people who feel bad things won't happen to them are the ones usually who get preyed upon.

for example, my girlfriend works in my old neighborhood and one day her co-workers who are transplants to the city were walking to their apartment (in my old hood) and turn the corner to end up facing a guy with a huge dirty harry style gun. "give up your purses ladies"........and they're like "no waaaaaay, are you serious?" why they didn't expect this to happen in the hood is COMPLETELY ****ING BEYOND ME!!!!! lol.

when you grow up in the streets in a gang infested area you learn survival skills that suburbians don't have to (out of safety). you learn to read body language, watch peoples hands for weapons, or even sense their intentions. shoot, i can even tell you if someone trains martial arts just by the way they walk. or by the type of shoe you wear i can tell if you are a kicker or not.

as i mentioned, its when people assume this stuff won't happen to them, those people usually become the victim.

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro,
perhaps you misread/ internpreted my post or I didnt explian my post correctly.

A sucker punch is hitting someone when thier not ready. hence in the street you must ALWAYS be ready. I was meaning your either ready or not for the puncher not the punchie. I really didnt think I had to explian but I hope this clears up the confusion

[bawang]

why they didn't expect this to happen in the hood is COMPLETELY ****ING BEYOND ME!!!!! lol.



they are our supreme white overlords. they have pwoer.