Wite Crane form taught by Gin Foon Mark??

[TenTigers]

I believe when GFM taught in NYC, he first taught a White Crane set to develop the student's foundation.
Does anyone know which set this was?
I believe he learned from Luk Chi-Fu, and Chan Hak-Fu and Kong Bon-Fu.
Does anyone have a list of the White Crane forms taught by them???

[jdhowland]

I have no complete lists but the most suitable forms for introducing the power structure would probably be the beginning level long hand drills.

Luk Chi Fu taught:

1) Luhk Lehk Kyuhn -- six powers boxing
2) Chyut Yahp Bouh -- advancing and retreating fists
3) Tit Lin Kyuhn -- iron chain boxing
4) Dei Saht -- ground striking
5) Baahk Hok Kyuhn -- white crane fists

From what I have seen of Kwong Bun Fu's students in Canada, they have a similar list of basics.

I once saw a list of sets from a Chan Hak Fu school in Austrailia. It had the Luhk Lehk and Chyut Yahp Bouh but I don't recall anything else that I recognized.

Tit Lin Kyuhn is long and was broken into four smaller sets to make it more manageable. Some schools only use certain portions of this.

Chyut Yahp Bouh, as you know, is the first long set taught and is often used for demonstrations or as an introduction to the style to non-specialists.

[taichi4eva]

Hi jdhowland,

Do you know if this is the whole Chut Yup Bo form from Luk Chi Fu?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=V1tAgZoJbaQ

The reason I ask is that the form that I have seen stemming from most lineages is much longer. This seems like just a quarter of the form.

[Gru Bianca]

But if I may....

No, it's not all the form it's only part of it, what we call Lao Xing Kune the other part of the Chut Yat Boh being what we call Fei Hok Kune.

Regards

[htowndragon]

I used to correspond with the late Pete Robinson who was a long time student of Gin Foon Mark specializing in GFM's Hung Kuen rather than his SPM.

From the emails he sent me (which are now lost...I deleted the email account we used to correspond on...I should have saved everything) there were detailed stories of Mark's training back in those days. Pete said Mark used to do some demonstrations of White Crane and was fond of demonstrating Pao Choi (long arm uppercut) that would leave Pete and all the other students shaking in their boots as to the power it produced.

Tony Galvin would ask Mark for his White Crane (amongst other students) but Mark refused to teach it, making the comment the students needed to be "very strong" in order to learn Crane. Tony was later given a letter and shipped off to the West Coast where he later trained under Harry Ng, my sifu David Chin, and George Long.

Pete commented that he did learn a set from Mark, but was not given a name of the set. Henry Poo Yee has also commented that Mark was fond of demonstrating/using White Crane back in the NYC days. Other than that, I don't know of a single student of Marks who "specialized" in his Crane. Hung Kuen yes, Crane, no.

[taichi4eva]

Thank you Gru for helping me out.

Is this White Crane "Charge Set" also just the 1st half? They say they are from the lineage of George Long and Ron Dong. May I ask who exactly were these individuals and who did they study with?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmOLZJ_iBI

[Gru Bianca]

Thank you Gru for helping me out.

Is this White Crane "Charge Set" also just the 1st half? They say they are from the lineage of George Long and Ron Dong. May I ask who exactly were these individuals and who did they study with?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmOLZJ_iBI

Most Welcome.

If you pay attention the "Charge set" is the Lao Xing Kune I mentioned in my previous post and not fully performed, so basically half of the half..so to speak.

As per the lineage, honestly I am not that familiar with it, if I am not mistaken they go back to Tan Chank Fu

[Vajramusti]

I used to correspond with the late Pete Robinson who was a long time student of Gin Foon Mark specializing in GFM's Hung Kuen rather than his SPM.

From the emails he sent me (which are now lost...I deleted the email account we used to correspond on...I should have saved everything) there were detailed stories of Mark's training back in those days. Pete said Mark used to do some demonstrations of White Crane and was fond of demonstrating Pao Choi (long arm uppercut) that would leave Pete and all the other students shaking in their boots as to the power it produced.

Tony Galvin would ask Mark for his White Crane (amongst other students) but Mark refused to teach it, making the comment the students needed to be "very strong" in order to learn Crane. Tony was later given a letter and shipped off to the West Coast where he later trained under Harry Ng, my sifu David Chin, and George Long.

Pete commented that he did learn a set from Mark, but was not given a name of the set. Henry Poo Yee has also commented that Mark was fond of demonstrating/using White Crane back in the NYC days. Other than that, I don't know of a single student of Marks who "specialized" in his Crane. Hung Kuen yes, Crane, no.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete was a good friend of mine...he also practiced SPM. He was close to Mak sifu.

[htowndragon]

Thank you Gru for helping me out.

Is this White Crane "Charge Set" also just the 1st half? They say they are from the lineage of George Long and Ron Dong. May I ask who exactly were these individuals and who did they study with?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmOLZJ_iBI


George Long was originally Harry Ng's Hop Ga student, and would have been my Sifu's only senior in America if he and Harry hadn't...parted ways.

I've heard the story two ways. One, he was originally a student of Chan Hak Fu (heard this from Tony Galvin in a phone conversation about five years ago), or he "bai si-ed" under Chan Hak Fu in order to use the "White Crane" name (he wasn't allowed to use the "Hop Ga" name). Outside the sets his students do, their fighting hands/drills are essentially from Harry Ng's line.

Politics aside, hardcore fighters by all accounts.

Hope this helps.

[htowndragon]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete was a good friend of mine...he also practiced SPM. He was close to Mak sifu.

He will be missed.

I essentially got a hold of him when he was looking to get a hold of Tony a few years back. We got to talking and corresponded a lot through email. The stories he shared of Lum Sang, Mak sifu and the old days back in NYC were pure gold. I really wish I hadn't deleted my old email account before I saved his stories.

[taichi4eva]

Thanks everyone. Does anybody know what Ng Yim Ming exactly taught? There was some footage of Sifu Lai in Hong Kong doing a single wing flip form. Both Ku Chi Wai and Sifu David Chin teach essentially the same 1 form, which I have heard referred to as 28 stars.

Most mainland lineages of Hop Gar (i.e. Deng family) teach siu lohan, dai lohan, and fu hok seung daau. Is that just a mainland thing?

[htowndragon]

which footage of sifu lai?

harry ng did teach pok yik sau.

[taichi4eva]

To htowndragon,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyusJIIFCi4

Looks like a basic form and unlike any form attributed to Harry Ng Yim Ming in the US.

[htowndragon]

oh i've seen it. that's not harry ng's pok yik...

this is harry ng's pok yik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIKstOPa9Sw&feature=player_detailpage

[htowndragon]

As far as "sets" go.

Hop Gar kung fu as taught by my sifu David Chin has "gone back to the roots" so to speak. We mostly train drills, spar, and things of that sort.

forms are an after thought since most of our school trains to fight in san shou and MMA (or are military special forces guys).

[taichi4eva]

In the David Chin lineage, do you practice only 1 form then? I like the 1 form, 1 style concept.

[htowndragon]

we more or less just did away with the forms and do drills. there are more sets for sure. the seniors like Chris Heintzman know them (like plum flower fist, our most advanced set as well as others).

[jdhowland]

Thanks everyone. Does anybody know what Ng Yim Ming exactly taught?...

Most mainland lineages of Hop Gar (i.e. Deng family) teach siu lohan, dai lohan, and fu hok seung daau. Is that just a mainland thing?

Ng sigong seems to have taught different curricula at different times. He knew some of the Wong Hen Wing sets. He taught some things in Hong Kong that apparently weren't taught in his short-lived San Francisco school. He taught one type of fighting to Hung members and another to the youth gangs. David Chin used to claim eight sets of Hop Gar.

My sifu claims to be Ng Yim Ming's senior representative in the U.S. but his Hop Ga is from before Ng's arrival here. We have five fighting sets and some weapons.

I don't know what remains in the mainland other than Deng family style. Deng Ga Hop Kyuhn seems to be pretty conservative but uses some Hung Ga terminology and it is difficult to separate the Siu Lam from the Lama style in what I have seen of their sets.

[taichi4eva]

Hi jdhowland,

May I ask who your sifu is? What are the Wong Hon Weng sets?

I noticed that most of the Tibetan White Crane branches share at least names of sets in common (chut yup bo, tit lin kuen, luk like kuen, etc.), while with Hop Gar and Lama, there doesn't seem to be many forms in common. Apart from the Chan Tai San lineage, I haven't heard anyone claiming to practice lama.

[jdhowland]

=taichi4eva;1188416]Hi jdhowland,

May I ask who your sifu is? What are the Wong Hon Weng sets?


My sifu is Tse Cheuk Tong who has taught White Crane and Ng Yim Ming's Hop Ga in the U.S. since 1963, about eight or nine years before Ng, himself, arrived.

WHW, as you seem to know from your alternate spelling of the name, was Wong Yan Lum's #1 representative for some years. I don't know who, if anyone, still preserves that branch or what was taught in those days. But we do know that Harry Ng learned Lama boxing before becoming a student of WYL.


I noticed that most of the Tibetan White Crane branches share at least names of sets in common (chut yup bo, tit lin kuen, luk like kuen, etc.), while with Hop Gar and Lama, there doesn't seem to be many forms in common. Apart from the Chan Tai San lineage, I haven't heard anyone claiming to practice lama.

There are a number of teachers from Choy Yit Gung's lineage who call their system "Sai Johng Maht Jung Lama Paai." We also use the term "Lama Kyuhn" to refer loosely to the White Crane/Hop Ga systems in general and to pre-Republic era versions in which sets and names were not so standardized.

[taichi4eva]

May I ask if there are any names of sets that may clue in to pre-Republican forms?

The version of Tibetan White Crane that I am learning is unique in that the sets are not all straight line like the ones coming from Cheung Kwok Wah or Chan Hak Fu. There are cross sets, and ones using circular footwork. We have a form called siu lau sing, which looks somewhat like Hop Gar Siu Lo Han in that it uses the side body approach.

[jdhowland]

May I ask if there are any names of sets that may clue in to pre-Republican forms?

The version of Tibetan White Crane that I am learning is unique in that the sets are not all straight line like the ones coming from Cheung Kwok Wah or Chan Hak Fu. There are cross sets, and ones using circular footwork. We have a form called siu lau sing, which looks somewhat like Hop Gar Siu Lo Han in that it uses the side body approach.

I don't think the names are a clue because many of the names common to other styles were borrowed. You can find related sequences of moves in sets with different names among the various branches. Our white crane from Au Wing Nin has some names not common in other branches of TWC such as kau da kyuhn, tauh da kyuhn and muih fa johng, in part because he learned a lama style before learning from Ng Siu Chan. He apparently continued to teach the lama kyuhn that he learned previously while under the white crane banner.

The sets you learn in any time period reflect the interests of your teacher and are not what determines the system. This is particularly true of white crane and hop ga because the emphasis is traditionally on the training of core techniques and not on the particular sets learned.

The strait road drills are the older type of training but a sahp jih set is not necessarily modern just because of the cross pattern. Some teachers modified traditional line sets because they preferred the cross pattern. Personally I like the fact that almost all of our hop ga and white crane sets are strait road drills. It gives them a familiar flavor and sets them apart from other southern styles.

[Gru Bianca]

May I ask if there are any names of sets that may clue in to pre-Republican forms?

The version of Tibetan White Crane that I am learning is unique in that the sets are not all straight line like the ones coming from Cheung Kwok Wah or Chan Hak Fu. There are cross sets, and ones using circular footwork. We have a form called siu lau sing, which looks somewhat like Hop Gar Siu Lo Han in that it uses the side body approach.

Sorry, I am a bit curious on what your observation about the Cheung Kwok Wah sets being all straight is based upon.. mind to elaborate more?

Thanks

[taichi4eva]

Hi GruBianca,

I may have overspoke, because I have no experience with the Cheung Kwok Wah lineage. This was just my personal observation of some of the sets I have seen on Youtube.

To jdhowland,

I just finished learning mui fa jeung and kou da. Is your kou da form done in a cross pattern? I was told by my sifu that this form was used to train throws.

[jdhowland]

To jdhowland,

I just finished learning mui fa jeung and kou da. Is your kou da form done in a cross pattern? I was told by my sifu that this form was used to train throws.

Ours is a straight line set in four roads. Only a few specific throws in our set. I see it as grappling and counter-grappling to set up throws.

You must be in a related system. I've heard that only Au Wing Nin lineage had those sets. Pleased to meet you Brother.

Muih fa johng/dai johng mui fa, mihn loi jam and our Kwan Dao set are the only lama sets we have that are not straight line drills.

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1188906]Hi GruBianca,

I may have overspoke, because I have no experience with the Cheung Kwok Wah lineage. This was just my personal observation of some of the sets I have seen on Youtube.
QUOTE]

It`s ok,　I was just curious to know what was your ground of opinion　you are right that on youtube you can find the usual sets but actually there are some other sets which encompass circular footworks in conjunction with the regular straight path.

[taichi4eva]

Hi jdhowland,

May I ask what are the names of the Au Wing Ning sets? Thank you for the welcome, but I'm still not sure if we're in the same family, lol. Is it the same name as the sets practiced by Steve Richards (siu hok yee, sei lo fun da, tau da, etc.)?

[jdhowland]

Hi jdhowland,

May I ask what are the names of the Au Wing Ning sets? Thank you for the welcome, but I'm still not sure if we're in the same family, lol. Is it the same name as the sets practiced by Steve Richards (siu hok yee, sei lo fun da, tau da, etc.)?

No, not the same. David Rogers has Deng family Hop Ga. Au Wing Nin was Baahk Hok and not from any Hop Ga branch.

I made an assumption based on a quick reading of one of your posts and thought I saw similar forms in "mui fa jeung" and "kou da." If the first has jeung=palms then we don't have that. We have plum blossom posts sets. There are a number of sets that sound something like "kau da" meaning seizing/striking, etc.,. Ours is a seizing and joint-locking set.

Whatever the lineage, it's still the same family--know what I mean? All recognized lama styles stem from Wong Yen Lum, Chu Chi Yu, and/or Wong Lum Hoi. Mind telling us who your sifu is?

[Gru Bianca]

.......

I made an assumption based on a quick reading of one of your posts and thought I saw similar forms in "mui fa jeung" and "kou da." If the first has jeung=palms then we don't have that. We have plum blossom posts sets. There are a number of sets that sound something like "kau da" meaning seizing/striking, head striking, etc.,. Ours is a seizing and joint-locking set.



Hi John, when you speak of seizing and joint -locking sets are you referring to Siu Kam Na and Da Kam Na?

[taichi4eva]

Here is my teacher's lineage chart.

http://lionsroar.name/david_cox_lineage.htm

He is currently living in Bradford, PA.

To jdhowland,

Yes, I meant plum flower palm, not plum flower post. Interesting how even though the forms may not be related, the kou da form I was taught and yours seem to deal with throwing. There is a kam na set, but that's higher level material that I have not gone through.

[jdhowland]

Hi John, when you speak of seizing and joint -locking sets are you referring to Siu Kam Na and Da Kam Na?

No, not specifically. There are others. Our tin gong kyuhn, tau da, and iron chain have a fair amount of grappling techniques as well as kau da kyuhn. In my lineage we do not have siu kam na or da kam na. Even mihn leui jam set is based on a combination of grappling and striking.

Gru Bianca, do you have a kau da kyuhn in your lineage?

[Gru Bianca]

No, not specifically. There are others. Our tin gong kyuhn, tau da, and iron chain have a fair amount of grappling techniques as well as kau da kyuhn. In my lineage we do not have siu kam na or da kam na. Even mihn leui jam set is based on a combination of grappling and striking.

Gru Bianca, do you have a kau da kyuhn in your lineage?

Hi John, if for Kau da Kyuhn you mean a specific set then I believe we do not have it as I have never heard it mentioned; I might be wrong though.

[taichi4eva]

Have you ever interacted with Shifu Gary Abersold?

Here is the list of forms posted on his website.
http://lionsroartradition.weebly.com/reference.html

[TauDar]

No, not the same. Steve Richards has Deng family Hop Ga. Au Wing Nin was Baahk Hok and not from any Hop Ga branch.

I made an assumption based on a quick reading of one of your posts and thought I saw similar forms in "mui fa jeung" and "kou da." If the first has jeung=palms then we don't have that. We have plum blossom posts sets. There are a number of sets that sound something like "kau da" meaning seizing/striking, etc.,. Ours is a seizing and joint-locking set.

Whatever the lineage, it's still the same family--know what I mean? All recognized lama styles stem from Wong Yen Lum, Chu Chi Yu, and/or Wong Lum Hoi. Mind telling us who your sifu is?

Greetings John,

I Hope this finds you and your family in great health and happiness.
Just a quick line re the above quote.

I'm not connected with Deng Family Hop-Gar - apart from a few cordial e-mail exchanges with David Rogers, I've never had any contact with them, but of courese. I hold them in the highest regard.

My line comes thru Chan Tat Fu of Hong Kong - who was a disciple of Au Wing Ning (for Lama and TWC). For Hop Gar, he was also a disciple of Wong Hop Lui (disciple to Wong Hon Wing) and Kong Tow (Disciple to Wong Yan Lum).

Chan Tat Fu refers to his branch as Sai-Jong-Hap-Gar-Si-Ji-Hao - the Hap refering not to 'Hop' but to 'Join Together' as in one family. The UK branch from him has developed independently for the last 40 years.

My own teacher called what he did Si-Ji-Hao (after Chan Tat Fu) but also used 'Hop-Gar' interchangably - as I do myself.

You mention a Tau Dr set, with a linear pattern, we have this set and I am told that it originates from Au Wing Ning.

My Hung Gar, (as you mention Deng Family) is entirely separate: and comes from Chan-Wai's lineage (died in 1989) - this also includes his Bak-Pai Fut Gar.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[jdhowland]

I'm not connected with Deng Family Hop-Gar...


My apologies. I just realized I was thinking of both you and David Rogers and mixed up my post. Thanks for filling in the info.

btw: what's your take on the meaning of "Tau Dar"? I was told that some of the names were passed down without being written and so different students have interpreted what they heard as being different words.

[TauDar]

My apologies. I just realized I was thinking of both you and David Rogers and mixed up my post. Thanks for filling in the info.

btw: what's your take on the meaning of "Tau Dar"? I was told that some of the names were passed down without being written and so different students have interpreted what they heard as being different words.

No probelm John,

Tau Dar in our line is interpreted as 'to steal the attack' .
It's a linear form, with a curved off-shoot that then turns back on itself to rejoin the linear path. It contains long and short hands, crane and ape division techniques, kicks, locks, throws. Featured footwork includes Tau-bo-faht (stealing steps), Yuan bo faht (ape steps) and Huang bo faht (bear walk steps) plus meridian stepping and variants on crane stepping with retracted and stretched Diu Mah stances. The stealng comes from 'Jeet' and 'Sim' and works on receiving/intercepting an incoming line, and working the bardo spaces in the opponents structure (Sim).

Cheers,

Steve.

[taichi4eva]

May I ask what does everyone think are representative weapons of the Lama/ White Crane style?

Ex. southern mantis- staff
wing chun- staff, butterfly knives

[jdhowland]

May I ask what does everyone think are representative weapons of the Lama/ White Crane style?

Ex. southern mantis- staff
wing chun- staff, butterfly knives

I would say that the gim has a special symbolic place in the systems, representing the ideal of the "Hahp" or knight. Long staff is well represented, as practical and well-developed as any I've seen. Daan dou is more important than most other weapons for practical combat applications. We also have tiger fork, Gwan dou, saam jit gwan, bench, double knives, etc.,. I particularly like a white crane spear form that also becomes a two-man set (ying cheung vs. daan dou).

[jdhowland]

...Tau Dar in our line is interpreted as 'to steal the attack' .


As in "tauh bouh." Thanks. That's our interpretation, as well. I once saw someone refer to "head strike," and thought it didn't make sense.