Chaap Choi/Charp Choi

[EternalSpring]

Hi, everyone.

to keep a long story short, my primary art is Ving Tsun. I was training with my sisook and he told me that our "baat fat/8 methods/8 energies" could all be transferred into our chong choi. I trained that for a while and starting doing my techniques with the intent of striking and when I showed my sisook I started with using my bong sao and his first response was "Good! This is our chaap choi. It's seen in styles like hung gar and choy lee fut, though they train it a lot more and thus have their way of using it very effectively"

And for that reason, I'm here in the search to understand more about this technique. I apologize if I'm simply talking like a fool, as that's possible since perhaps I need to train more instead of asking questions , but I figure some details from other perspectives could help.

So I'll simply post my questions and thoughts and hope that someone can give some of their feedback.

In a Ving Tsun bong sao to the center-line, the chaap choi version would strike to the center. Is this the same angle as other arts? While experimenting with the technique I can see how it seems to have a longer range and hit well when shooting out from the "shoulder line" instead of the main center line.

What exactly is the striking point for this technique? I've been training w/ my lower three knuckles striking in a fist. But I've searched this topic on this forum and most people seem to use some sort of leopard first.

Is this technique mainly based on twisting power? This may sound weird since I guess we can say that twisting is in every movement/strike, but with this movement, it seems that it would almost be near useless w/o the twisting

(Oh and for those who have trained Ving Tsun and want to start off by talking about how I'm completely wrong in relating these two movements/techniques, that's cool too, but please explain why if you can.)

[Snipsky]

NO one in the southern sexion of the forum wants to know about ving chun. you have your own forum. :cool:
stealing concepts from hung gar and choy li fut? weeeeeeak

[hskwarrior]

UM, I for one feel that our choy lee fut people shouldn't share our techniques with our mortal enemies.

if wang chun was so much better than CLF why take our techniques?

[TenTigers]

WCK and CLF are not enemies, they are rivals, and that is only in HK due to the rooftop fights, etc.
WCK and CLF are brothers in arms in the revolution-Fan Ching Fuhk Ming.
Both styles originated from Siu Lum Kuen, before they became specializations, and separate styles.
There are many schools that teach these systems side by side.

[hskwarrior]

WCK and CLF are not enemies, they are rivals, and that is only in HK due to the rooftop fights, etc.
WCK and CLF are brothers in arms in the revolution-Fan Ching Fuhk Ming.

tomato...tomahto....potato potahto... rival enemy......we fight. i for one don't like wing chun and don't want them exploring our CLF to include our stuff in theirs.

if you wish to rik.....give him some of your hung gar to suppliment his wang chun

[sanjuro_ronin]

wck and clf are not enemies, they are rivals, and that is only in hk due to the rooftop fights, etc.
Wck and clf are brothers in arms in the revolution-fan ching fuhk ming.
Both styles originated from siu lum kuen, before they became specializations, and separate styles.
There are many schools that teach these systems side by side.

traitor !!!!
:d

[LoneTiger108]

NO one in the southern sexion of the forum wants to know about ving chun. you have your own forum. :cool:
stealing concepts from hung gar and choy li fut? weeeeeeak

Interesting.... but tell me what makes Chaap Choi NOT Wing Chun again?? :p

FWIW My Sigung taught this as a connective to certain pole methods and we still honour a 'version' of that today in his salutation, except we utilize Chaap Jeung and Gwar Choi :)

People make enemies for enemies sake and fairy stories, but I actually thought it was Bakmei who was the enemy of all of us??! :eek:

Not that it matters these days... or so I thought!

[TenTigers]

I practice Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I studied CLF to further my understanding of the Leopard/charp choy, and long arm techniques that were within my style.
I studied Wing Chun and then Later SPM to further delve into the Snake and Crane short bridging techniques that were within my style.
I studied Hop-Ga/Bak Hok to further understand the element punches and body angling for their usage-again in techniques that were inherent in my style.
(especially since that is their original source)
It is not stealing. It is expanding your understanding of techniques which we all share.

"sharing is caring...":p

[hskwarrior]

"sharing is caring..."

call me greedy :p

[CLFNole]

Frank did you not let the other kids play with your toys when you were little? :D

[hskwarrior]

Frank did you not let the other kids play with your toys when you were little?

i was busy stealing theirs. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I practice Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I studied CLF to further my understanding of the Leopard/charp choy, and long arm techniques that were within my style.
I studied Wing Chun and then Later SPM to further delve into the Snake and Crane short bridging techniques that were within my style.
I studied Hop-Ga/Bak Hok to further understand the element punches and body angling for their usage-again in techniques that were inherent in my style.
(especially since that is their original source)
It is not stealing. It is expanding your understanding of techniques which we all share.

"sharing is caring...":p

*cough w h o r e *

[CLFNole]

i was busy stealing theirs. :D

Thumbs up to that one :D

[Faruq]

I agree with the brother who said that's only in Hong Kong, because from what I've seen the mainland versions resemble complete kung fu systems like Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar.

[TenTigers]

*cough w h o r e *
I ain't no ho, I'm a d@mned scientist!!!!!:D

"when you steal from one source, it's called plagerism.
When you steal from a lot of sources, it's called research!"

[hskwarrior]

right on bro hahah.


speaking of stealing....this guy claims to have no lineage in gung fu but has a ton of kung fu videos including hung gar that he claims to teach. i agree with someone that said they believe he buys the videos then tries to teach them under some new wrapping.

can you smell the karate coming from him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbl-hbTcYSQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

right on bro hahah.


speaking of stealing....this guy claims to have no lineage in gung fu but has a ton of kung fu videos including hung gar that he claims to teach. i agree with someone that said they believe he buys the videos then tries to teach them under some new wrapping.

can you smell the karate coming from him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbl-hbTcYSQ

Didn't you know that the lead leg hook kick to the head is a bread-n-butter move in REAL hung Gar ??
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The reality is that NO specialty fist "belongs" to any system.
Sure some may be more associate with one than another, but for a system to h ave it, doesn't mean it took it from another.

[hskwarrior]

Hahaha but could you smell what he's cookin?

Honestly, i'd rather see bad gung fu than watching kungarate.

NOT TALKING ABOUT SPECIALTY FISTS. talking about someone who never learned gung fu buying kung fu videos then attempting to teach them in the karate manner.

down with kungarate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hahaha but could you smell what he's cookin?

Honestly, i'd rather see bad gung fu than watching kungarate.

NOT TALKING ABOUT SPECIALTY FISTS. talking about someone who never learned gung fu buying kung fu videos then attempting to teach them in the karate manner.

down with kungarate.

The topic is about chaap choi ie: leopard fist.

[hskwarrior]

The topic is about chaap choi ie: leopard fist.

my mexican neighbor always calls it Bok choy.... :D

[EternalSpring]

NO one in the southern sexion of the forum wants to know about ving chun. you have your own forum. :cool:
stealing concepts from hung gar and choy li fut? weeeeeeak


UM, I for one feel that our choy lee fut people shouldn't share our techniques with our mortal enemies.

if wang chun was so much better than CLF why take our techniques?

listen you guys, one day the ming dynasty is going to make it's return and it will depend on all of us southern chinese martial artists to work together as a team! And remember, there's no "W-C, C-L-F, or H-G" in team!

[hskwarrior]

listen you guys, one day the ming dynasty is going to make it's return and it will depend on all of us southern chinese martial artists to work together as a team! And remember, there's no "w-c, c-l-f, or h-g" in team!

symbolically the ming was rewarded when the qing was finally overthrown. :d

[bawang]

choy lee fut are manly men who fight for chinese jesus and killed over 1 million people in taiping rebellion. their rape of nanjing made japanese look like choir boys.

wing chun came from river boat prostitutes and was probably self defence created by male prostitutes.

thats like saying a mosquito is rival with an elephant.

[hskwarrior]

choy lee fut are manly men who fight for chinese jesus and killed over 1 million people in taiping rebellion. their rape of nanjing made japanese look like choir boys.

wing chun came from river boat prostitutes and was probably self defence created by male prostitutes.

thats like saying a mosquito is rival with an elephant.

does the elephant know the mosquiter is sucking his arse?

[bawang]

no. he clench his anus and CUSH HIMS

[EternalSpring]

no. he clench his anus and CUSH HIMS

i hope that elephant contracts aids from the mosquito :mad:

[jdhowland]

I will say this much:

Using chaap cheui in Ving Tsun is a waste of time unless you train waist torque and side power.

[hskwarrior]

I will say this much:

Using chaap cheui in Ving Tsun is a waste of time unless you train waist torque and side power.

personally i don't have a desire for wing chun to try and adopt choy lee fut techniques to add to their arsenal. and if WC does have a chop choy it isn't like that of CLF.


In a Ving Tsun bong sao to the center-line, the chaap choi version would strike to the center. Is this the same angle as other arts? While experimenting with the technique I can see how it seems to have a longer range and hit well when shooting out from the "shoulder line" instead of the main center line.

What exactly is the striking point for this technique? I've been training w/ my lower three knuckles striking in a fist. But I've searched this topic on this forum and most people seem to use some sort of leopard first.

Is this technique mainly based on twisting power? This may sound weird since I guess we can say that twisting is in every movement/strike, but with this movement, it seems that it would almost be near useless w/o the twisting

the striking surface of a chop choy? so i take it that you think chop choy is something that is strictly a panther fist? choy lee fut doesn't use the same surface of wing chun strikes. we use the opposite surface. and a chop choy can be used many different ways. and because of people like the shaolin do fraud JAKE MACE (Jacob Rydberg) i'm not openly sharing things like that.

to answer the twisting issue....CLF chop choy has a twisting corkscrew chop choy but its not the only one either.

[Tao Of The Fist]

personally i don't have a desire for wing chun to try and adopt choy lee fut techniques to add to their arsenal. and if WC does have a chop choy it isn't like that of CLF.



the striking surface of a chop choy? so i take it that you think chop choy is something that is strictly a panther fist? choy lee fut doesn't use the same surface of wing chun strikes. we use the opposite surface. and a chop choy can be used many different ways. and because of people like the shaolin do fraud JAKE MACE (Jacob Rydberg) i'm not openly sharing things like that.

to answer the twisting issue....CLF chop choy has a twisting corkscrew chop choy but its not the only one either.

I guess that is your prerogative as far as tsap choy goes (you should make more vids on the ten characters in a sparring format, I think those are interesting). The question I think should be asked is could you adapt a tsap choy for wing chun that works for wing chun framework? If not then what is the point? Especially since (as far as I know, but I don't practice either CLF or WC) CLF seems to emphasize whipping power while WC does not?

Oh and I understand your frustration about Jake, but sir you're just beating a dead horse. It's best if you just show how it's supposed to be done and ignore what you think is baloney.
It's as simple as that, you can lead a horse to water but you can't put five wheels on it if it won't let you. (yeah I'm corny like that)

[jdhowland]

=hskwarrior;1182709]personally i don't have a desire for wing chun to try and adopt choy lee fut techniques to add to their arsenal. and if WC does have a chop choy it isn't like that of CLF.

Pretty much my point. It would be counterproductive and no longer WC.


the striking surface of a chop choy? so i take it that you think chop choy is something that is strictly a panther fist?

The shape of the fist has nothing to do with chaap. Chaap can be done with any shape of fist.


to answer the twisting issue....CLF chop choy has a twisting corkscrew chop choy but its not the only one either.

Yup.

[EternalSpring]

I will say this much:

Using chaap cheui in Ving Tsun is a waste of time unless you train waist torque and side power.

At least from what I've been training, both are in the luk dim boon gwon.

That said, Ving Tsun is really my main art, but with the philosophy and method I've been taught (and yes I do train in what people call a "traditional" sense), all these moves go together. Ving Tsun history is shady, but looking at nearly any lineage that exists, they all have stories of masters of multiple arts creating Ving Tsun.

I'm not sure about others, but I dont really train in a way where all of a sudden my kung fu is not kung fu because my stance is wider than expected or because I do a move that's not in a form. Then again, this could be the view I'm taught simply because I learn more than Ving Tsun from my sifu.

[EternalSpring]

personally i don't have a desire for wing chun to try and adopt choy lee fut techniques to add to their arsenal. and if WC does have a chop choy it isn't like that of CLF.


I find this to be somewhat contradictory to what CLF is, hell, even the name is made to pay homage to three masters of three styles, right?



the striking surface of a chop choy? so i take it that you think chop choy is something that is strictly a panther fist? choy lee fut doesn't use the same surface of wing chun strikes. we use the opposite surface. and a chop choy can be used many different ways. and because of people like the shaolin do fraud JAKE MACE (Jacob Rydberg) i'm not openly sharing things like that.

to answer the twisting issue....CLF chop choy has a twisting corkscrew chop choy but its not the only one either.

actually, my post said that I've seen more than one way, which is why I asked about diff variations. I dont think there's one way to do it (which is true for many techniques), but that's the beauty of the forums, the more people that answer, the more different views you see.

Also, Ving Tsun strikes dont necessarily use just "one" striking surface.

but thanks for that one twisting detail, that's one of the ways I've been training it in Ving Tsun as well. Of course, I know that no answer here will teach me CLF, and tbh, while i think CLF is cool, that's not really my intention here either. I'm more interested in looking into techniques that are the same or even slightly similar to what I do.

The only thing I'm stumped on now is how "stabbing" in the chop choy is diff from something like a "biu/thrusting" energy.

[EternalSpring]

The question I think should be asked is could you adapt a tsap choy for wing chun that works for wing chun framework? If not then what is the point? Especially since (as far as I know, but I don't practice either CLF or WC) CLF seems to emphasize whipping power while WC does not?


I know you weren't addressing me in your post, but just to give my view on this, I think a lot of kung fu styles/systems (and even non CMA) have a lot of energies and methods of generating power, it's just that not all of them are taught right away.

The reason I personally am interested in CLF and Hung Gar is because after having met people who talked about the form, and hearing what other say when they explain "details" of their techinque, it sounds like they're doing the same thing except in a wider frame with a "longer" kiu. For example, with twisting energy, most people will say Ving Tsun doesn't have it (or footwork, or hip shifting, etc lol), but as far as I know, not using this twisting energy just means all your techniques will most likely crumble under impact/pressure.

Even regarding various different types of power generation, whether it be whipping, twisting, stabbing, etc...I've at least been taught that all of them can be incorporated into the chain punch that's taught on the first day (of course, the diff is that it takes training to understand how to do this, which is why beginners will hardly ever show all these types of energy [not that im some great master, but these things usually get brought up more after the "beginner levels."]).

[EternalSpring]

I mean, technically, this doesn't look like Ving Tsun structure from the first three forms, but these type of movements are def part of the curriculum (well at least for me, but im sure a lot of Chunners would be familiar with this)

GrandMaster Moy Yat
http://kevinmartin.moyyat.com/images/moyyat_punch3.jpg

[hskwarrior]

I find this to be somewhat contradictory to what CLF is, hell, even the name is made to pay homage to three masters of three styles, right?


right. but we confine it to these three and only these three. CLF doesn't go to other systems because IMHO opinion its complete. we have everything that any other dangerous systems have.

however, wing chun adopting the true essences of CLF Chop Choy is like Choy Lee Fut turning our horses inward and doing chain punches WC style. we would no longer be CLF. we would be wing chun influenced CLF instead.


actually, my post said that I've seen more than one way, which is why I asked about diff variations. I dont think there's one way to do it (which is true for many techniques), but that's the beauty of the forums, the more people that answer, the more different views you see.

Also, Ving Tsun strikes dont necessarily use just "one" striking surface.

but thanks for that one twisting detail, that's one of the ways I've been training it in Ving Tsun as well. Of course, I know that no answer here will teach me CLF, and tbh, while i think CLF is cool, that's not really my intention here either. I'm more interested in looking into techniques that are the same or even slightly similar to what I do.

yeah i believe you should be asking your sifu's this. not learning how to off of a forum. fuk that KUNG FU is FREE junk. (not saying you said that). sure this is filled with martial arts folks, but you don't know if people are fooling you. ask you sifu about it, see what he thinks.

yeah, you have to be careful with what CLF you're dealing with or you can get caught up in some mess. if you want to learn CLF you should find someone to teach it to you. or you will be everything jake mace jacob rydberg is all about.

my best advice, don't do it the chicken sh1t way. you will never really comprehend TRUE CLF that way.

The punch in the pic you show isn't necessarily a chop choy. and you can't put CLF into WC and still call it WING CHUN. Same vice versa. apples and oranges.

[EternalSpring]

right. but we confine it to these three and only these three. CLF doesn't go to other systems because IMHO opinion its complete. we have everything that any other dangerous systems have.

however, wing chun adopting the true essences of CLF Chop Choy is like Choy Lee Fut turning our horses inward and doing chain punches WC style. we would no longer be CLF. we would be wing chun influenced CLF instead.



yeah i believe you should be asking your sifu's this. not learning how to off of a forum. fuk that KUNG FU is FREE junk. (not saying you said that). sure this is filled with martial arts folks, but you don't know if people are fooling you. ask you sifu about it, see what he thinks.

yeah, you have to be careful with what CLF you're dealing with or you can get caught up in some mess. if you want to learn CLF you should find someone to teach it to you. or you will be everything jake mace jacob rydberg is all about.

my best advice, don't do it the chicken sh1t way. you will never really comprehend TRUE CLF that way.

The punch in the pic you show isn't necessarily a chop choy. and you can't put CLF into WC and still call it WING CHUN. Same vice versa. apples and oranges.

See, you're not understanding the obvious point that I'm not trying to replace the two systems, or add them together, or anything like that really. In fact, the first post alone shows that I'm actually asking about this technique not just from CLF, but also from Hung Gar, and tbh, any style that uses the technique.

I understand that you're somewhat emotionally distraught over what that Jake dude did, and I can even understand what that feeling is like, but you have to realize that this is not what I'm trying to do. Not everyone is Jake, and tbh, I totally share your view in regards to what he's doing.

I have talked to my Sifu, a sisook, and by sheer luck, gotten a few words from my Sigong on this as well. I'm not trying to learn your style or even your technique. training kung fu myself, I know that's not a smart move to do, especially through the internet. What I am trying to do is observe other things to find similarities and differences in comparison to what I know through my training. You dont need to duplicate what someone else does to learn something from it. For example, everything mentioned about things like twisting energy and side energy are not foreign to me, but now that I've heard others from other styles talk about it, my mind is going "ahh, so we're not the only ones who have this concept."

You guys can tell me anything, in fact, you could tell me the opposite of what chop choy is to spite me. But I'm only looking for concepts to relate to what I know and enhance my own knowledge. You could be the very creator of CLF itself, but if your advice or words dont do anything for me or give me anything to think about, that's the end of it right there. I'm not trying to fill in voids in my Ving Tsun, because like you feel about your style/system, I also feel that the Ving Tsun I learn is complete. That's actually exactly why I'm here, because I feel that whatever you say, I can probably understand it because Ving Tsun has all the energies for those who train it the way it should be trained. IMO, that's why people who diligently train martial artists can learn from each other despite style differences.

[hskwarrior]

good luck in your quest bro

[EternalSpring]

http://community.combatsim.com/public/style_emoticons/default/icon_salute3.gif

[jdhowland]

EternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading. CLF isn't the only southern system to use the term and the concept may vary in different styles.

If you look at the way in which a spear deals with another weapon you might have an idea of the CLF "stab." The twist that hskwarrior mentioned is another clue. The chaap is not a basic thrust because it expects obstruction and deals with it without losing too much force on the way.

You could, and obviously do, use a similar concept even if you do not use CLF structure. So you could have a related concept expressed as a different animal altogether.

[hskwarrior]

you could, and obviously do, use a similar concept even if you do not use clf structure. So you could have a related concept expressed as a different animal altogether.

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[TenTigers]

"eternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading"

True, if you get too caught up in the differences and not examine the similarities-or where and how they fit.

With the right mindset, therre is nothing wrong with trying to better understand usage of a technique by studying how systems that specialize and developed and refined that technique>
How else do you think people evolved their arts?

[EternalSpring]

EternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading. CLF isn't the only southern system to use the term and the concept may vary in different styles.

If you look at the way in which a spear deals with another weapon you might have an idea of the CLF "stab." The twist that hskwarrior mentioned is another clue. The chaap is not a basic thrust because it expects obstruction and deals with it without losing too much force on the way.

You could, and obviously do, use a similar concept even if you do not use CLF structure. So you could have a related concept expressed as a different animal altogether.

Yea, the way i was introduced to it seemed to be more "hung gar" oriented, or so I've heard. When my sisook showed it to me it was through his punching at me, my kiu/bridge intercepting his, and then his kiu making contact but using that contact to get under my kiu and hit me with the "charp choi." I guess I may have gave off a vibe of more interest in CLF because CLF is a style that I personally find interesting. I also understand that there are mantis styles that use a technique by the same name as well.

And I'm especially grateful for that detail in the bold. The detail that you mentioned about the spear was also very useful, because Ive heard that a lot of the pole/gwon techniques I train are also used with the spear, and I at least understand a tiny bit about about you mean about the spear dealing w/ another weapon and the charp choi being a move that expects obstruction.

And yea, I think I do have a related way of expressing an energy similar to charp choi, although I guess I'll only be sure when I one day train in those arts that focus on them. In the meantime, I find it to be a very useful type of strike. I dont know if these are considered the same as all, but I also find the same energy to be useful in boxing when one quickly steps forward with the front leg and throwing a jab to the body and then shooting back up to the normal guard/stance, although I'm sure there are a bunch of differences there too.

[EternalSpring]

"eternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading"

True, if you get too caught up in the differences and not examine the similarities-or where and how they fit.

With the right mindset, therre is nothing wrong with trying to better understand usage of a technique by studying how systems that specialize and developed and refined that technique>
How else do you think people evolved their arts?

Thanks for clarifying! I see it the same way as well. I dont really plan to get caught up in other people's words to the point that they overrule my own training and my own sifu and kung fu family. But at the same time, I agree that it's always awesome to talk to people who specialize in certain skills.

On a side note, I guess I can understand how others can view my thread and questions as being somewhat strange. It's probably the same way I feel when I see someone post a strange thread in the Ving Tsun sections that states some basic question like "Does Wing Chun have kicks?" lol.

But yea, you said it much better than I did; I'm really just interested in seeing the opinions of people who specialize in the techniques that I'm learning. I agree that such insight is indeed very beneficial if used correctly rather than being used as a replacement for a sifu or as a means to learn a style.

[hskwarrior]

part of understanding the chop choy is found in the name itself.