Just a personal observation

[MightyB]

I don't think solo empty hand forms should be used to demonstrate kung fu anymore. Keeping them in the kwoon for training purposes is fine, but IMO they're a terrible way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public.


Discuss.

[Raipizo]

Agreed and disagree. It won't show what the form does or how it's used against opponents unless you have some experience in m.a and can kinda guess it. Audiences are into flashy forms not traditional stuff.

[Dale Dugas]

Too many people learn MULTIPLE forms and then resort to kickboxing.

Why waste your time, when you can be kickboxing if that is how you fight.

For me, that is why South Mantis and Baguazhang and others arts appeal to me. Not many forms but lots and lots of work with drills against people who move and try and whack you.

[MightyB]

Agreed and disagree. It won't show what the form does or how it's used against opponents unless you have some experience in m.a and can kinda guess it. Audiences are into flashy forms not traditional stuff.

Even the flashy don't cut it IMO. Just seems that the world doesn't need to see another skinny dude flopping about in their silky PJs.

Maybe if they broke it down into smaller portions with a demo of the self defense technique against a person in between sections. But just to do a solo form anymore kind've makes TCMA look weak IMO.

[Raipizo]

Agreed focus on one at a time until you become adept at it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I actually like forms for demo purposes, they can show the grace and skill of the practitioners.
I do not care for "overly choreographed" two man sets or "play sparring".
I think that if a person or school is going to do a demo, they should do one that highlights what a system is about and what a person will learn in that school.
Sparring should be a part of it.
This clip here shows what I think is a good demo of a system and school:

From Uechi-ryu master kyohide Shinjo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WClie...eature=related
9 minutes but worth because he ( and his students) demo virtually all that is Uechi-ryu AND even include *gasp* sparring!
granted it isn't full contact but it is free style and NOT cooperative.
They show:
Forms
Conditioning
weapons
Bunkai ( application of forms)
free fighting.

[Lucas]

i think that the forms for demonstration capture the 'stylistic flavor' of what ever style it is pretty well, but what i would like to see in kungfu demonstration competitions is that the 'traditional' practitioners compete in both forms and fighting. one to showcase their fighting ability, the other to showcase the style they are using to fight with. i think also this would achieve two goals, one to see how well they can fight with their style, and two to see how well they employ their styles methods and principles in fighting.

modern wushu i think is its own thing and by now everyone should realize its not a representation of traditional kungfu. it is its own thing that can stand alone....preferably over in the corner :eek:

jk

[MightyB]

I actually like forms for demo purposes, they can show the grace and skill of the practitioners.
I do not care for "overly choreographed" two man sets or "play sparring".
I think that if a person or school is going to do a demo, they should do one that highlights what a system is about and what a person will learn in that school.
Sparring should be a part of it.
This clip here shows what I think is a good demo of a system and school:

From Uechi-ryu master kyohide Shinjo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WClie...eature=related
9 minutes but worth because he ( and his students) demo virtually all that is Uechi-ryu AND even include *gasp* sparring!
granted it isn't full contact but it is free style and NOT cooperative.
They show:
Forms
Conditioning
weapons
Bunkai ( application of forms)
free fighting.

I saw your post on this earlier and liked it and agree it's a better way to demo. I think choreographed is fine if it's practiced and put together well. One of my favorite demos I saw live at a smaller tourney was a choreographed san shou demo where they improvised the striking almost like a give and take sparring session and really focused on doing the big oooh aaahhh throws for the audience.

[Raipizo]

Forms are fine for me for a bit but they tend to get rather dry pretty fast.

[Lucas]

when i click that vid it says an error occured during validation every time :mad:

[MightyB]

Back in the 90's at one of the first Eagle Cup tournaments, there was an old Wing Chun sifu who did a great martial demo with this young black dude during the masters exhibition. It was all one and two step self defense stuff, but I remember it as being pretty cool. I'd like to look him up on youtube, but I don't know the guy's name. It would have been either the first or second Eagle Cup.

[hskwarrior]

I don't think solo empty hand forms should be used to demonstrate kung fu anymore. Keeping them in the kwoon for training purposes is fine, but IMO they're a terrible way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public.

why is that? :eek::confused:

if you yourself don't like to practice forms, don't do it. i still practice forms 30 years later. for many older people, it helps to keep their bodies limber. i don't know that many elderly people personally that like to practice san shou.

still, its none of our places to speak for all TCMA. forms are tradition. forms are therapeutic. if people want to and there are, they will practice forms. forms for a non fighter is still a way to stay connected to the tradition.

so, i for one, will never give up forms. even if i'm promoting more fighting than anything, i will never give them up nor stop teaching them.

[MightyB]

why is that? :eek::confused:

an honest answer.......



Youtube.



We live in a world of UFC, Boxing, Olympic TKD and Judo, wrestling, and Thai Boxing. When someone takes the time to look up info on a traditional non-sport MA, they'll find a plethora of really bad forms. I personally don't like that as being what people associate TCMA with. I figure if people spent more time demoing the cool stuff, the bad will sink to the bottom of search engine h3ll.

[hskwarrior]

We live in a world of UFC, Boxing, Olympic TKD and Judo, wrestling, and Thai Boxing. When someone takes the time to look up info on a traditional non-sport MA, they'll find a plethora of really bad forms. I personally don't like that as being what people associate TCMA with. I figure if people spent more time demoing the cool stuff, the bad will sink to the bottom of search engine h3ll.

this isn't a form. it can be found on youtube. in the video is one of my student who is senior to the guy in yellow. yellow has been training with me a little more than a month now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmMsrR7FVHg

[MightyB]

this isn't a form. it can be found on youtube. in the video is one of my student who is senior to the guy in yellow. yellow has been training with me a little more than a month now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmMsrR7FVHg

To me something like this is a better way to demo a style. Like I said, earlier, maybe the guy does a small bit of a form and then stops and does that portion with pads so people get a better idea of it as a martial art.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't understand why people don't just train solo drills (when they don't have training partner)? A simple drill such as

- hammer fist,
- groin kick,
- face punch,

If you repeat this combo 20 times, it's just like a form with 60 moves.

To only repeat any technique 1 time in form training can hardly develop any "muscle memory".

[JamesC]

I don't understand why people don't just train solo drills (when they don't have training partner)? A simple drill such as

- hammer fist,
- groin kick,
- face punch,

If you repeat this combo 20 times, it's just like a form with 60 moves.

Because it doesn't look cool. Duh. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

To me something like this is a better way to demo a style. Like I said, earlier, maybe the guy does a small bit of a form and then stops and does that portion with pads so people get a better idea of it as a martial art.

no, i feel you. but i still like to see a good form. in a way its like a gymnastics routine. if you know what to look for you can judge them on their execution of the form.

you can have one guy who never fought in his life...street or ring.....

and then you have someone who has one or the other or even both experience....

which one do you think would comprehend the purpose of a form better?

[hskwarrior]

I don't understand why people don't just train solo drills (when they don't have training partner)? A simple drill such as

- hammer fist,
- groin kick,
- face punch,

If you repeat this combo 20 times, it's just like a form with 60 moves.

To repeat 1 rep in form can hardly develop any "muscle memory".

all my beginners in my club had to know how to strike and use the basic strikes effectively prior to learning the form. first, they train single strikes till they get improved then move on the combo's.

its all about how and what we train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

when i click that vid it says an error occured during validation every time :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCliek3Oqy4

[Lucas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCliek3Oqy4

oh thx man

[TenTigers]

I think people just shouldn't do sucky forms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think people just shouldn't do sucky forms.

I am beginning to have issues with this "common sense", "logic" and "understanding" view points you have.
There is no place for that kind of crap in kung fu !!!

[hskwarrior]

There is no place for that kind of crap in kung fu !!!

no free thinking! the way is kungarate~!

[taaigihk]

I don't understand why people don't just train solo drills (when they don't have training partner)? A simple drill such as

- hammer fist,
- groin kick,
- face punch,

If you repeat this combo 20 times, it's just like a form with 60 moves.

To only repeat any technique 1 time in form training can hardly develop any "muscle memory".

Do you know many chinese traditional styles that neglect jibengong in favor of forms training? You have to train both. Firstly be good at the jibengongs, danxiang lianxi etc.. Sure. But then it is not the same to do 60 hammer fists in a row (especially when you already do it correctly) as when you do one hammerfist within a form, weaved between two other, challenging in terms of body work, movements and cannot repeat it if it goes not so well. Different thing. Forms are not the essence of cma, but should be trained imo. As hskwarrior said, you can tell a lot by just watching a form done.

[YouKnowWho]

Forms are not the essence of cma, but should be trained imo.
Disagree!

Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training".

[David Jamieson]

Forms when demoed either display physical ability or the distinct lack of it. They are a viable method to demonstrate what you offer as a school.

Weapons especially! Who doesn't love a sword form, full blast? Who?
I sure do. I also appreciate when forms are done solid and well by a practitioner.
I appreciate a good boxer shadowboxing. It's music in motion after all.

Besides, kung fu demo are often a lot more than forms demos. Usually there is a good lion dance, some fan dance as well and then some forms, a two man set, some weapons, two man weapons and so on.

Most Tradition Chinese Martial Art or Kung Fu uses forms to teach and learn. That's life, get over it. :p

[YouKnowWho]

Some forms are not designed for training. I had created a form that the 1st 13 moves are 13 standing training postures. The purpose is trying to help my students to remember those 13 different standing postures. The order among those 13 ZZ postures is not important. One should not train this form "from the 1st move to the last move". He should try to hold any individual posture as long as he can. The order is not important.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i7kQo0Dq48

[hskwarrior]

Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training".

blasting through your forms full blast and cleanly is GREAT cardio.

music in motion or a train wreck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjaCAbhOOHE

[MightyB]

I'm not saying forms or forms training is bad - like my sig says, I like forms.

What I'm saying is that solo empty hand routines are a bad way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public. IMO I say we need to think about how we demo TCMA to the world.

[David Jamieson]

Why is he wearing a badge? Is he a cop?

[YouKnowWho]

solo empty hand routines are a bad way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public.
To show "ability" is better than to show "technique". The following demo may be fun to watch:

- touch your elbow to you toes (show flexibility),
- stand on one leg and go up and down (show balance, leg strength),
- jump in the air and throw 3 punches before feet land back down (show speed),
- drop into a perfect floor split,
- do a 360 degree floor sweep followed by a tornado kick in the air, and
- end with "5 phoenix flying in the air - jumping double kicks, jumping back heel kick, jumping crescent kick" (show you can fly),
- finally, pick up a dumb bell and start to hit on your own head (show you are crazy, don't mess with you).

Just a short demo sequence that audience can easily see it can't be done without training.

[hskwarrior]

What I'm saying is that solo empty hand routines are a bad way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public. IMO I say we need to think about how we demo TCMA to the world.

i don't think so. a solo hand form can determine by the viewer if the performer has any skill i.e. balance, fluidity, aggression, power, concentration, focus, intent and so on. does this leave the viewer clueless because there weren't two individuals up there fighting? sure. they have no idea of what their watching in most cases.

i agree a mixture of form, applications or weapons would be great to watch. but as a teacher, i don't want my students giving up all our goodies for others to just pocket. so a simple gung fu demo is sufficient for public demo's..

david....he was a cop. he makes all his students wear a badge and learn to dance like him. hahahahaha....the badge is related to their ranks

[taaigihk]

Disagree!

Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training".

I don't know, maybe it's the language thing.. You mean to say forms, are merely a tool in process of learning? If so, I agree with you. :)

[Raipizo]

blasting through your forms full blast and cleanly is GREAT cardio.

music in motion or a train wreck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjaCAbhOOHE

So horrible

[TenTigers]

I'm not saying forms or forms training is bad - like my sig says, I like forms.

What I'm saying is that solo empty hand routines are a bad way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public. IMO I say we need to think about how we demo TCMA to the world.

If that's the case, then you're missing the point.
ok, here's how it all went down;

a gazillion years ago, when TCMAists were fighting for their lives and trained their soldiers for combat, did they do forms, or drills, drills, drills,conditioning and fighting?
Answer? Drills, drills, drills, etc.

Fast forward a bunch'a years-people are overthrowing the Chings and training in secret, etc.
Ok, so did they practice forms, or drills, drills, drills, etc.?
Answer?-Drills, drills, drills, etc.

ok, Fast forward another bunch'a years, and nobody's fighting. Instead, all the teachers are trying to eek out a living from their Martial Art.
So..they start doing demos, to show off their skillz and lure, oops, I meant attract students to their school.
What do you show? A bunch of sweaty guys doing conditioning, and beating the bejeezus out of each other, or the Cool Tiger/Crane set?

And..how do you attract people to YOUR school instead of Master Lee's school down the street?
"We do the Drunken Fist!"
"Well, WE do the Monkey Fist!"

And so it went.

Originally, forms (the textbook)were only taught to lineage bearers who were chosen to pass on the system.
Students don't need the textbook-they have it right there. Their Sifu.
Only NOW, forms are taught to all the students as part of the curriculum.
NOW, we teach forms to maintain interest and enrollment.


*I am speaking only of textbook/kuen-faht type forms.
my next post will contradict all of this...sort of.

[TenTigers]

Disagree!

Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training".


If that's the case, then you're missing the point.

In most systems, forms are divided into two categories;
Developmental/Gung-Faht and textbook/techniques/Kuen-Faht

Gung-Faht/developmental forms are exactly that-training stance, structure, power generation, breath. They develop 'the Gung-Fu body.'

ok, my mistake. There is a third category, more of a recent development, and that is the demo form, purely performance.

[YouKnowWho]

This is how I train my body method in my Taiji system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s3Cbt2Hsjo

形意拳的​​練法、打法、演法(表演)的口訣都是不一樣的，但現在弄混亂了，用打法去練功，用演法去比武， 這是當年形意拳普傳後留下的弊病，

The XingyYi system has different method for

- training,
- combat, and
- performance.

Today people use combat method for training, and use performance method for combat. Those are the major mistake.

[Lucas]

what do you guys think about this taiji video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=sw3Fyf133qo

[IronFist]

It's just misleading because people see forms and think "that guy is practicing fighting techniques."

As much as I don't want to say it, forms are basically like a dance. They require great skill, flexibility, balance, technique, and endurance, but they don't really have any applicability to actual fighting against a resisting opponent.

They have their uses, though. Forms are a great workout, just like weight lifting is a great workout. But neither forms nor weight lifting contain fighting techniques.

Forms can also serve to catalog techniques. You might have a form that contains all the techniques in a style. That's another purpose they serve. Whether or not those techniques work against a resisting opponent is another question, however.

Forms are awesome at being what they are. But it's misleading to suggest they are fighting. They look like fighting to the uninitiated, so they're impressive, and that's probably why they're used.

Cuz come on, who doesn't think a form done well looks cool?

If you're a noob, they're super awesome.

If you're a fighter, you know they're not fighting, but they're still cool looking.

And it's funny that the flashier they look, the less like fighting they are, and the more they impress people :D

When someone does a jumping spinning back kick people are like "holy cow! That guy is a bad ass don't f- with him! He's an awesome martial artist!

[hskwarrior]

It's just misleading because people see forms and think "that guy is practicing fighting techniques."

if i'm not practicing fighting techniques in my form then what am i practicing? i mean, if my "POON KIU YUM CHOP KWA SOW" isn't a fighting technique, what is it? in fact, break each technique down to single components, they all have something to do with fighting. period.


As much as I don't want to say it, forms are basically like a dance. They require great skill, flexibility, balance, technique, and endurance, but they don't really have any applicability to actual fighting against a resisting opponent.


how is that any different than a boxer doing shadow boxing? one SHOULD be thinking about and react with intent with doing their forms. don't know about you, but my forms are packed with fighting combo's, both defensive and offensive and a combo of both all at the same time. so i can't relate to what you're saying here.


Forms are awesome at being what they are. But it's misleading to suggest they are fighting. They look like fighting to the uninitiated, so they're impressive, and that's probably why they're used.


in my whole 30 years of CLF i've never once heard that a form will make you a great fighter. happy that my sifu never mislead us into believing that.

to ALL that are uninitiated to any style experienced or not, if you don't know the system, you can't say its not effective until one you fought them or learned the style.



If you're a fighter, you know they're not fighting, but they're still cool looking

only a newb, dweeb, geek, simp, punk, busta, chump, nerd and the like would think a form represent fighting.


And it's funny that the flashier they look, the less like fighting they are, and the more they impress people

thats why its called a PERFORMANCE. :D

[YouKnowWho]

I like to create my own form (drills). The folowing sequence may not look as pretty as any TCMA form, but it's much closer to the true combat:

- right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook,
- left front kick, right roundhouse kick, right side kick, left turn hook kick,
- leg twist, leg lift, leg block, front cut,
- ...

[xinyidizi]

There are people who do forms as a dance and people who do them for fighting. For properly trained martial artists doing forms is not that different from fighting as they maintain the fighting awareness and know what they are doing with each move. However they can only have that awareness if they also have the experience of sparring or fighting with resistant opponents. There is also different types of audience. For most normal untrained people probably exaggerated dancing forms would be more exciting. For slightly more trained people who don't know what they should look at yet, probably forms wouldn't be that exciting but for advanced martial artists who can differentiate martial artists from dancers, forms would also be a good means to see someone's skills.

[yeshe]

This morning I woke up with this terrible back pain,a real hard,stiff lower back pain.At work today I really could not function normally.
After I get off from work ,walking to my building,I am still in pain.Thats it I say "no training today"its gonna be dinner, reading and early to bed.So I'm waiting for a buddy to have dinner with and I got some time to kill.Maybe Ill just walk through my form.I do it real slow,locking in each stance,coordinating body, hands and legs the best I can.By the third WA! I feel A little looser,now I can sink a little deeper in stance.By the end of the set I feel smooth and 80% pain is gone.I walked to the resturant with no pain.
If I got into a fight before I did this,god help me.If I got into a fight after I did this,well,god help them!
I hit pads,bags,sometimes training partners,I generally like to hit things.I love doing intervals with kettlbells or body weight exercises.Even yoga I do sometimes.I dont think any of this stuff would have helped me as much as doing this one simple,well composed little combat dance.

[xinyidizi]

I'm not saying forms or forms training is bad - like my sig says, I like forms.

What I'm saying is that solo empty hand routines are a bad way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public. IMO I say we need to think about how we demo TCMA to the world.

Probably only a minority of the general public would think like that. In my experience for most of them Kungfu is what they have seen in the fantasy land of Kungfu movies and the only way to attract their attention would be exaggerated dancing moves.

Furthermore more practical drills and sparring would be boring for many people because they don't look as beautiful and untrained people won't be able to see the techniques.

[MightyB]

As much as I don't want to say it, forms are basically like a dance. They require great skill, flexibility, balance, technique, and endurance, but they don't really have any applicability to actual fighting against a resisting opponent.


I often think that if you were to get a random sample of videos showing empty handed solo martial arts forms and an equal number of videos showing modern interpretive dance and then asked a group of people to identify which were dance and which were martial arts - it'd be a 50/50 toss up.

---

When someone does a demo of judo they don't do representitive motions of throws against the air - they throw someone. Compare that to a demo of someone doing a traditional form. Which do you think the audience would say is an arse kicking martial art?

[xinyidizi]

When someone does a demo of judo they don't do representitive motions of throws against the air - they throw someone. Compare that to a demo of someone doing a traditional form. Which do you think the audience would say is an arse kicking martial art?

You can always say that it's too deadly to be demonstrated like those childish throws so that you can keep the element of mystery. That would be convincing for most people and has worked so far but there is a minority who would want to test your skills. In that case you should also have some practical skills and should be ready to convince them in person by beating them in sparring.

[MightyB]

I think this a decent way to demo kung fu. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM5orlabCFE)

It's choreographed, but IMO it has the ooh and ahhh factor plus big throws.

[IronFist]

only a newb, dweeb, geek, simp, punk, busta, chump, nerd and the like would think a form represent fighting.

The first post in this thread is talking about demonstrating them to the general public.

The general public is full of MA newbs.

[IronFist]

Probably only a minority of the general public would think like that. In my experience for most of them Kungfu is what they have seen in the fantasy land of Kungfu movies and the only way to attract their attention would be exaggerated dancing moves.

Furthermore more practical drills and sparring would be boring for many people because they don't look as beautiful and untrained people won't be able to see the techniques.

I agree with everything you just wrote here.

[Raipizo]

I think this a decent way to demo kung fu. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM5orlabCFE)

It's choreographed, but IMO it has the ooh and ahhh factor plus big throws.

Looks like some aikido stuff but there are some cool throws in there.

[ginosifu]

I don't think solo empty hand forms should be used to demonstrate kung fu anymore. Keeping them in the kwoon for training purposes is fine, but IMO they're a terrible way to demonstrate kung fu to the general public.

We are representing Chinese Kung Fu.... Chinese Kung Fu has forms in it? Why do we try to take a square peg and try to put it into a round hole?


I think this a decent way to demo kung fu. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM5orlabCFE)

It's choreographed, but IMO it has the ooh and ahhh factor plus big throws.

The vid is ok but this not encompass all of Chinese Kung Fu.... What about weapon forms? Chin Na demos? What about hat awesome 2 person spear vs 3 section staff? When we do demos... we have Forms, kids self defense, weapons, shuai chiao,womens self defense, chin na, iron palm etc... we give everyone the whole scope of the art.


I don't understand why people don't just train solo drills (when they don't have training partner)? A simple drill such as

- hammer fist,
- groin kick,
- face punch,

If you repeat this combo 20 times, it's just like a form with 60 moves.

To only repeat any technique 1 time in form training can hardly develop any "muscle memory".


Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training".

I kinda dis agree wit ya here YKW.

What is a form? It is a bunch of those single techniqes you mentioned above put into a sequence. Forearm Block, then Hammer Fist, then Groin kick etc etc. All these single techniques were put into patterns for a purpose.

Forms are more than just single techniques strung together. Forms make a complete Chinese Martial Artist, they can increase flexibility, increase dynamic strength, teach footwork, teach basic fighting combos, increase your cardio endurance (needed for fighting).... I could go on and on... etc

I do agree with you that drill solo or small combos prepare you for battle. However you get these from your forms. This explains it the best:

If that's the case, then you're missing the point.
ok, here's how it all went down;

a gazillion years ago, when TCMAists were fighting for their lives and trained their soldiers for combat, did they do forms, or drills, drills, drills,conditioning and fighting?
Answer? Drills, drills, drills, etc.

Fast forward a bunch'a years-people are overthrowing the Chings and training in secret, etc.
Ok, so did they practice forms, or drills, drills, drills, etc.?
Answer?-Drills, drills, drills, etc.

ok, Fast forward another bunch'a years, and nobody's fighting. Instead, all the teachers are trying to eek out a living from their Martial Art.
So..they start doing demos, to show off their skillz and lure, oops, I meant attract students to their school.
What do you show? A bunch of sweaty guys doing conditioning, and beating the bejeezus out of each other, or the Cool Tiger/Crane set?

And..how do you attract people to YOUR school instead of Master Lee's school down the street?
"We do the Drunken Fist!"
"Well, WE do the Monkey Fist!"

And so it went.

Originally, forms (the textbook)were only taught to lineage bearers who were chosen to pass on the system.
Students don't need the textbook-they have it right there. Their Sifu.
Only NOW, forms are taught to all the students as part of the curriculum.
NOW, we teach forms to maintain interest and enrollment.


*I am speaking only of textbook/kuen-faht type forms.
my next post will contradict all of this...sort of.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

If that's the case, then you're missing the point.
ok, here's how it all went down;

a gazillion years ago, when TCMAists were fighting for their lives and trained their soldiers for combat, did they do forms, or drills, drills, drills,conditioning and fighting?
Answer? Drills, drills, drills, etc.

Fast forward a bunch'a years-people are overthrowing the Chings and training in secret, etc.
Ok, so did they practice forms, or drills, drills, drills, etc.?
Answer?-Drills, drills, drills, etc.

ok, Fast forward another bunch'a years, and nobody's fighting. Instead, all the teachers are trying to eek out a living from their Martial Art.
So..they start doing demos, to show off their skillz and lure, oops, I meant attract students to their school.
What do you show? A bunch of sweaty guys doing conditioning, and beating the bejeezus out of each other, or the Cool Tiger/Crane set?

And..how do you attract people to YOUR school instead of Master Lee's school down the street?
"We do the Drunken Fist!"
"Well, WE do the Monkey Fist!"

And so it went.

Originally, forms (the textbook)were only taught to lineage bearers who were chosen to pass on the system.
Students don't need the textbook-they have it right there. Their Sifu.
Only NOW, forms are taught to all the students as part of the curriculum.
NOW, we teach forms to maintain interest and enrollment.


*I am speaking only of textbook/kuen-faht type forms.
my next post will contradict all of this...sort of.
Game, set and Match.

[MightyB]

Anyway - don't think like someone who's well versed in Chinese Martial Arts. Clear your head. Now think about what would appeal to someone who knows nothing about martial arts.

What's cool? Lion Dance, Weapons Demos, 2 and 3 person sets, Technique Demonstrations, gung demonstrations (ip, is, magnetic palms, etc)

Think about the length of time of the demo, the sequence, the sounds that the audience hears, etc.

What makes a good demo? If you include a solo sequence - don't kill the mood, everything has to ad to the crescendo. Leave the audience wanting more.

[ShaolinDan]

IME most people who don't know much about martial arts would rather see a cool form than realistic fighting drills.

Also, well--fighting doesn't look too different in application between styles--but forms really do. If there's anything that really differentiates most kung fu from other MA styles, it's the complexity/beauty of the forms.

[wenshu]

Maybe Kung Fu should just stop doing banquet hall demonstrations period and start focusing on training some real fighters so the handful of students it has left that are part of that .001 % of the population willing to challenge themselves don't have to to keep going to MMA gyms to find that challenge.

Invariably the assumption is that kung fu needs to be promoted more, that the problem is the old world secrecy and internecine animosity among schools. Only if they could work together to promote Chinese martial arts we would have, what? Greater market share among daycare centers and figure skating schools?

Now I don't own a school (or publish a periodical) so I'm not biased by any need to meet a certain threshold of enrollment in order to maintain a lifestyle therefore I have the luxury of being able to disagree.

By definition the value of something is inversely proportional to its popularity. I don't think it needs to be promoted at all. Kung Fu will never get any more popular than it already is. What Kung Fu needs is to dispense with the effeminate pageantry and start training some fighters. Take it underground, make it less popular. Hipster martial arts, but hardcore martial arts.

[Lucas]

i liked the vid that sanjuro put up. it form, application, breaking, weapon, etc.. in that demo you saw the guy do the form, then two guys doing application while a third was showing the section of the form that is being applied while they apply it, and then also boards being broken with the same techniques being demo in that section of the form.

imo if you want to demo your school, you should show people a bit of everything you do. so they can get a good idea of what it is they will be doing if they join.

but just a form? no. i think you need to show more than that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i liked the vid that sanjuro put up. it form, application, breaking, weapon, etc.. in that demo you saw the guy do the form, then two guys doing application while a third was showing the section of the form that is being applied while they apply it, and then also boards being broken with the same techniques being demo in that section of the form.

imo if you want to demo your school, you should show people a bit of everything you do. so they can get a good idea of what it is they will be doing if they join.

but just a form? no. i think you need to show more than that.

In that clip, you saw the essence of Uechi-ryu, you saw their training, applications, the way they fight, everything.
That is what a demo is.
When we used to do TKD demos, we might do one syncronized form, one advanced form, but most was sparring, self-defence and breaking, exactly what you see in a grading for example.

[hskwarrior]

Maybe Kung Fu should just stop doing banquet hall demonstrations period and start focusing on training some real fighters so the handful of students it has left that are part of that .001 % of the population willing to challenge themselves don't have to to keep going to MMA gyms to find that challenge.

nah, that's no good. banquet gung fu is awesome. period. it won't happen, ever in your lifetime. not sorry bout it either.


By definition the value of something is inversely proportional to its popularity. I don't think it needs to be promoted at all. Kung Fu will never get any more popular than it already is. What Kung Fu needs is to dispense with the effeminate pageantry and start training some fighters. Take it underground, make it less popular. Hipster martial arts, but hardcore martial arts.

FAK A HISPSTER.....

GUNG FU FORMS FOR LIFE!!!!!

[wenshu]

nah, that's no good. banquet gung fu is awesome. period. it won't happen, ever in your lifetime. not sorry bout it either.

FAK A HISPSTER.....

GUNG FU FORMS FOR LIFE!!!!!

You're just there for the buffet anyways.

I didn't say forms were the problem. A more appropriate counterpoint would be: "effeminate pagentry for life!!!!"

[hskwarrior]

i didn't say forms were the problem. A more appropriate counterpoint would be: "effeminate pagentry for life!!!!"

you're revealing too much too soon

[Raipizo]

We are representing Chinese Kung Fu.... Chinese Kung Fu has forms in it? Why do we try to take a square peg and try to put it into a round hole?



The vid is ok but this not encompass all of Chinese Kung Fu.... What about weapon forms? Chin Na demos? What about hat awesome 2 person spear vs 3 section staff? When we do demos... we have Forms, kids self defense, weapons, shuai chiao,womens self defense, chin na, iron palm etc... we give everyone the whole scope of the art.





I kinda dis agree wit ya here YKW.

What is a form? It is a bunch of those single techniqes you mentioned above put into a sequence. Forearm Block, then Hammer Fist, then Groin kick etc etc. All these single techniques were put into patterns for a purpose.

Forms are more than just single techniques strung together. Forms make a complete Chinese Martial Artist, they can increase flexibility, increase dynamic strength, teach footwork, teach basic fighting combos, increase your cardio endurance (needed for fighting).... I could go on and on... etc

I do agree with you that drill solo or small combos prepare you for battle. However you get these from your forms. This explains it the best:


ginosifu

Agreed along with ten tigers. There are the flashy wushu demos or thesre's the more practical forms. Forms are a part of cma just as kata are for jma. No one will do away with forms. Forms have been part of martial arts for a long time.

[mickey]

Greetings,

A decent template for a demo would be:

Opening Remarks

Beginner to intermediate students: Forms

Advanced Students: Weapons, Sparring and Breaking or any other gung demonstration.

Closing Remarks

Time Frame:30 to 90 minutes

Though one can go longer, depending on the curriculum, longer demos have the effect of someone with a very strong southern drawl who happens to have a stuttering problem. It just wears people the fuk out. The smoothest chairs start to feel like sandpaper.


mickey

[MightyB]

Back in the 90's at one of the first Eagle Cup tournaments, there was an old Wing Chun sifu who did a great martial demo with this young black dude during the masters exhibition. It was all one and two step self defense stuff, but I remember it as being pretty cool. I'd like to look him up on youtube, but I don't know the guy's name. It would have been either the first or second Eagle Cup.

Does anybody know the name of the Sifu I'm looking for from that demo?

[YouKnowWho]

Forms make a complete Chinese Martial Artist, they can increase flexibility, increase dynamic strength, teach footwork, teach basic fighting combos, increase your cardio endurance (needed for fighting).... I could go on and on... etc.

If a form is made of the followling 3 short sentences (3 combo drills):

1. I love you.
2. I want to marry you.
3. I want to die for you.

You can train this way:

- 1, 2, 3 10 times, or
- 3, 2, 1, 10 times, or
- 1, 3, 2, 10 times or,
- ... ,

You can also train this way:

- 1 10 times, 2 10 times, 3 10 times, or
- 2 10 times, 3 10 times, 1 10 times, or
- ...

you will get exactly the same training result.

The last word of the 1st sentence has no logic connection to the 1st word of the 2nd sentence. Also the last word of the 2nd sentence has no logic connection to the 1st word of the 3rd sentence. To link 3 separate sentences in any pre-design sequence will make no sense at all. You should have freedom to train those 3 sentences anyway you prefer.

The important is to learn the grammer "I (subject) love (verb) you (object)" which in TCMA is combo that use one move to set up another move.

[-N-]

If a form is made of the followling 3 short sentences (3 combo drills):

1. I love you.
2. I want to marry you.
3. I want to die for you.

[...]

The last word of the 1st sentence has no logic connection to the 1st word of the 2nd sentence. Also the last word of the 2nd sentence has no logic connection to the 1st word of the 3rd sentence. To link 3 separate sentences in any pre-design sequence will make no sense at all. You should have freedom to train those 3 sentences anyway you prefer.

The important is to learn the grammer "I (subject) love (verb) you (object)" which in TCMA is combo that use one move to set up another move.

You probably won't get in her pants if you start off with "I want to die for you", haha.

One move sets up another move, but a combo can also set up another combo.

"In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is."

[-N-]

You probably won't get in her pants if you start off with "I want to die for you", haha.

One move sets up another move, but a combo can also set up another combo.

"In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is."

Which reminds me of the joke, "Why do women smile so much on their wedding day?"

[YouKnowWho]

One move sets up another move, but a combo can also set up another combo.

That will be an excellent form design. As far as I know, I have never seen any form that has logic connection from the 1st move to the last move. I have created a 84 moves form. I have to make it into 6 long combos (14 moves each). To create a 30 moves combo that move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ..., move 29 set up move 30 is extream difficult if not impossible. If you can create a form like that, your name will be famous in TCMA history.


Which reminds me of the joke, "Why do women smile so much on their wedding day?"
All girls are the same. Your girl makes sure that you have broken all the connection with your other girls. She then dumps you.

Women are very good at that.

[Lucas]

Which reminds me of the joke, "Why do women smile so much on their wedding day?"

why????????????

[YouKnowWho]

why????????????

Son: Dad, How expensive is to get marry?
Father: I don't know. I'm still paying.

[Lucas]

Son: Dad, How expensive is to get marry?
Father: I don't know. I'm still paying.

lol, i suppose you never get it all the way paid off, huh?

[YouKnowWho]

lol, i suppose you never get it all the way paid off, huh?

I had refinanced.

[-N-]

why????????????

What the groom thinks, "I'm so happy. She gives the best bee jays."
What the bride thinks, "I'm so happy. No more bee jays."

:D

[-N-]

That will be an excellent form design.

Forms can show individual moves made into combos. But also combos made into strategies.

So for example:

- Straight line combination attacks which change to circular attacks.

- High combination attack, changes to low combination attack, then back high, and follow with takedown.

- Multiple low line leg attack/throw combinations from the outside changes to high line striking attack down the center.

- Multiple hgh low spear attack combinations where footwork changes into running attack.

- Multiple retreating defensive spear combinations where footwork hides a trap method for turning the fight around.

Some forms teach strategies. Others may not go to this level.

[WangBazi]

I suggest you find migrant workers because you can help them and train well at the same time. Just think about it man, do you want to train to defend yourself against a punching bag or a poor migrant worker guy? Which one will fight better? If you train with other rich people, you will never learn to fight well because they are so weak.

My friend does this in Guanzhou with some of the people come to do business and tear up their passports. So cheap to rend them. They can't do anything because they don't have a passport or a hukou. They fight so good because they have no reason.