Adaptation-Staff to all long weapons

[TenTigers]

question..or comment..or whatever..to all my MARTIAL ARTS Friends here:
The gwun (staff) is the foundation for ALL long weapons. If you know staff technique, you should be able to pick up ANY long weapon and make adaptations for the weight and whatever the attachment is, be it spear (after all, the Eight Diagram Staff came from the spear set) Halberd, Rake, Hoe, Kuan-Dao, Pu-dao, etc. -because that is exactly how ALL long weapons were developed.
AND YET.....this "expert," took points off a competitor's form, because they did the same basic set, using two different weapons-in two different divisions, btw-open and traditional-the staff was done in traditional, as it should be, the adaptation was done in open.
Well, he was an "expert" in wu-shu, apparently not in traditional Kung-Fu.
My father's definition of an expert, or specialist is,
" someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing."

discuss...

[TenTigers]

I said, "DISCUSS!" D@MNIT!:mad::D
dang..22 views and not one comment..?
I guess everyone agrees, right?

[Lucas]

i was commenting but then i had to work :eek:

i think that using the same sets, with changes for the weapon type, is completely acceptable. as far as a form competition goes, i see it both ways really. i mean what if you took 1st in two divisions with the same form. I think maybe a point deduction in one division is kind of fair, so unless one did that form quite exceptionally, you shouldnt place first with the same set twice. was the deduction done in both divisions or just one?

might i ask what the other weapon set was?

[TenTigers]

She took first in both divisions-the other weapon was coin spear (coin spade with a spear point)
She was the only competitor, so the response by the judge in question was twice as cheezy. Like, what message are you trying to get across?
The weapon was heavier so the thrusts were changed to adapt for the weight-full body mechanics, as well as for the jump turn, and the angling of the weapon to emphasize the edged portion of the blade.
So..she's 11 yrs old, an intermediate student, and the sole competitor in both divisions. She would've won either way.
I suppose he thought he was being smart and detail oriented, when if fact he was simply being ignorant, and mean to a young competitor.

[Lucas]

oh....wow...ya what a douche. i mean i could see adult weapon division with a bunch of competitors...but that is just silly. esp for a 11 year old little kid thats the ONLY competitor.

[CLFNole]

I think that can be a bit of a generalization. Northern spear is a bit different from southern spear. Southern spear is like southern long staff. Some staff techniques are like kwan do but really wouldn't you say kwan do, any type of dai do, hoe (chau tow), gold coin spade, etc... are all similar rather than compare them to staff?

As to what that judge did I don't agree at all. People should judge based on the merits of the performance itself and not overanalyze it with their own opinions. I had this discussion with someone at our school who complained at a recent tournament that he competed against someone who was doing chopping techniques with a gim and some spear type techniques with a kwan do. He thought the judges should have taken points off and that it was "chop suey". My response was while yes it probably was chop suey the student probably doesn't know any better and you can't take off for things like that. If they do the form good with spead, power and focus they should be scored appropriately. Afterall it is a forms competition not show me the correct way to use X or Y weapon. You will always have problems with judging at kung fu tournaments becuase there are so many styles and everyone (judges included) have their opinions on how things should be done rather than just view form and judge based on what you see not think.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I would agree with the "expert" if the competitor did not express the distinctness of either weapon. I actually saw this done in competition by someone who performed a staff form and then performed the same form with a spear for the tie breaker. He won. I felt he did not deserve the win and that he was disrespectful to the judges. He has been on the cover of KFM and IKF. He may be good but because of what I saw him do, I do not think much of him.

A few years ago, I made reference to the broom form that was featured in KFM. It could have been used to create SO many other weapon forms. I added that all you needed was to understand the uniqueness of each weapon.

mickey

[bawang]

neither your student or the judge is right because form competition is an inherently dishonorable activity.

[TenTigers]

Greetings,

I would agree with the "expert" if the competitor did not express the distinctness of either weapon.
mickey
"The weapon was heavier so the thrusts were changed to adapt for the weight-full body mechanics, as well as for the jump turn, and the angling of the weapon to emphasize the edged portion of the blade."

[mickey]

Hi TenTigers,

I read what you quoted before. If that is what you meant in that paragraph, i.e., the proper weapon usage was honored, I have no problems with it. Sometimes, it is just a few key moves that legitimizes a form, as with a Kwan Dao.

You can write better than that. :)


mickey

[GeneChing]

There is a difference. If someone presented me with exactly the same form for staff (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-staffs-batons-staffs.html)and coin spear, I would give one of these: :rolleyes: One of the biggest faults in CMA today is that most practitioners have no sense of how to cut with a blade. You can chop or slice and to slice, you must push or pull. With a blunt stick, you just strike or poke. A coin spear is particularly challenging because it is a funky blade shape. That totally changes how one might chop and slice with it. If the form was made with appropriate changes, it could work, but those changes would be critical.

Thanks for remembering that broom form, Mickey. That was The Complete Shaolin Broom Form from our 2009 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797). It featured my present instructor, and he still hasn't taught me that form. Mind you, I haven't really made an effort to learn it. I built the broom for that shoot. I'd have to build another one and then carry it back and forth to practice all the time.

[-N-]

Praying Mantis Spear vs. Staff form distinguishes the different offensive/defensive characteristics of the 2 weapons in our system.

Spear has rapid fire piercing. Staff has circular power slamming. Spear needs to use rebounding jing to counter the staff strikes. Staff uses circular parries to set up for counterattack.

[bawang]

the staff is a foundation weapon because it is nonlethal but its techniques dont carry over to other weapons.

no pole weapon can be used double headed like the staff. pole weapons also dont peck and tap like the staff. the staff is a civilian non lethal weapon; staff emphasizes minimum force. pole weapons emphasize maximum force.

[WangBazi]

Staff isn't the mother of weapons. Its just a saying.

Really it is the spear. That gave bird to the halberd.
The staff is similar, but the weight is different. Half hour ago I was using an iron rod for tamping dirt. I was swinging it repeatedly and found that this is the origin of taiji silk reeling. If you move it fast enough to hurt people I think its very interesting. I don't lift weights to be pretty, but it gives me a body like a god**** warlord. I go to clubs and touch pretty girls without paying and they like it.

[bawang]

I go to clubs and touch pretty girls without paying and they like it.

nice, me too. i do bicep curls 5 times a week, prostitutes pay me to do the sex to them. then they cry in my arms.

[WangBazi]

Its better when they cry.

One time I tried a hooker who hated me. She was cursing me because my endurance was too powerful. I told her it was her fault for being a bad lay and she cried. Then I was happy and finished.


Just went outside and did one hundred smashes. Very interesting, silk realing figure 8 in horse stance and then I found more power using my body as a fulcrum for adding power to the strike, with reverse breathing it was more powerful. I think I just discovered the origin to internal kung fu.

[Bacon]

The techniques don't carry over. You gain coordination which carries over but the way you handle a pudao or six and a half points pole or spear is very different. Then get into flail weapons, jian, dao, baat jaam do, knives... No. Each weapon has their own uses and though there may be some carry over they are inherently different.

Even using a stick is different if you very the length. You can't handle a 2 foot stick the same way you handle a jo, the same way you handle a bo, the same way you handle the long pole.

That's kind of like saying you can use a Lee Enfield the same way you use an m16.

[Drake]

I can't believe so many people are having this fake intellectual discussion about how weapons are used differently. Isn't that sort of, I don't know... obvious?

I prefer a baseball bat. There's something very satisfying about the sound it makes when it makes contact.

[WangBazi]

do 100 smashes and then you will know.

[David Jamieson]

I think there is a difference in long weapons.

A spear has a different function to a staff.
IE spear thrusts and penetrates, while staff bludgeons.

I have seen spear forms done with staff and they look like an ineffective way to use a staff quite frankly.

For things like halberd, it is another level different again. The halberd is weighted quite differently and the flow of air over the blade makes handling it different.

bladed weapons are a different category of weapons whether they are long or not is another thing.

some maps over as far as grip retention on the pole, hand changes and dropping techniques, but quite a lot of a weapons training methods are dictated by the weapon itself.

[TenTigers]

but quite a lot of a weapons training methods are dictated by the weapon itself."
here's the point. This is exactly what I have stated.
I'm guessing the last several posts were made without the posters' actually reading the thread, as everyone is simply repeating the same thing, and missing the point completely.
oh well. Thanks for the replies...

[WangBazi]

lock this thread

Knowledge has been accomplished.

[GeneChing]

I prefer a baseball bat. There's something very satisfying about the sound it makes when it makes contact.
Yea, but can you use your baseball bat technique with a logger's axe? That's what we really want to know. And if you do, should the judges deduct from your score? :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

Yea, but can you use your baseball bat technique with a logger's axe? That's what we really want to know. And if you do, should the judges deduct from your score? :rolleyes:

not without adjustments. because in the baseball bat form, you dont have to rotate the weapon for impacting, where as with the loggers axe, if you are wanting to chop, you will need to rotate the haft properly. so of course you get points deducted...duh Geeeene :p

[bawang]

baseball bat can be inserted into anoos of your enemy. axe cant. in shaolin kung fu this is called black dragon enters the cave.

[Lucas]

you forget that axe has two ends. one you can.

[bawang]

but then you get poop on your hands. this is called black whirlwind washes face.

[MightyB]

I mean there's no correlation what-so-ever between a staff and long weapons!
http://www.militarypictures.info/d/80-3/Barret_M82.jpg

http://www.logoi.com/picture-movies/img/battleship_01.jpg

http://images4.alphacoders.com/281/2816.jpg

http://rt.com/files/politics/minister-newest-icbm-ready/icbm-launch-image.n.jpg

[Lucas]

but what if you're a flying monk?

http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article768648.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Suspended+by+wires,+Chinese+artist+Li+Wei+performs +in+the+sky++at+La+Villette+in+Paris

[MightyB]

but what if you're a flying monk?

http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article768648.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Suspended+by+wires,+Chinese+artist+Li+Wei+performs +in+the+sky++at+La+Villette+in+Paris

That's just bad arse. You Win the Internet!

[MightyB]

This would be better to train than staff for adapting to long weapons.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tzS6KmgFAcc/T13rSxtIwWI/AAAAAAAAJFg/J-6l0Fj_mtE/s1600/ChenBaoqingManchuArchery.jpg

[-N-]

lock this thread

Knowledge has been accomplished.

I think I saw the horse trying to move again.

[omarthefish]

. . . Afterall it is a forms competition not show me the correct way to use X or Y weapon. . . . .

erm . . .so what exactly is a forms competition then? ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms competitions !!!
BBBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
LOL!!!! LOL !!!!!!!!!!!! LOL! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:p:p:p:D:D:D:D:D:p

[CLFNole]

erm . . .so what exactly is a forms competition then? ;)

I was misquoted :p but you know what I am saying ;)

[YouKnowWho]

pole weapon can be used double headed like the staff.
This is pole:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6638/stick2g.jpg

This is staff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utZk2GdSrMg


After all it is a forms competition not show me the correct way to use X or Y weapon.
The pole is just a biger staff in diameter that your fingers cannot hold on completely. This way, when your opponent uses his staff to slide along your pole, his staff won't be able to hit on your fingers. If you use staff to show pole application and allow your opponent's staff to slide along your staff, you are doing wrong because the staff is not suitable to do that.

[CLFNole]

This is pole:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6638/stick2g.jpg



Pole? Looks more like a drainage pipe. :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

Pole? Looks more like a drainage pipe. :eek:

It is. You can add sand inside to make it "very" heavy.

[ngokfei]

in regards to the original topic.

So is it fair to do a "Staff Form" and then do the same form using another long weapon?

IMO no. If you don't know a form for a particular weapon then go find someone to teach you.

That is probably the reason why so many rare weapon sets done in schools today are just BS. You can obviously see the lack of uniqueness for the weapon

IMO.

[bawang]

the "rare weapons" forms are rare, because those weapons dont need forms.

guan dao has only one technique, the sweep. the ji, axe, and mace only has downward chop.

[ngokfei]

and according to baawang - the earth is flat.:p