PDA

View Full Version : Androstenedione, the good, the bad, the ugly?



Scarletmantis
09-20-2001, 08:16 AM
What's the scoop on this supplement? Is it really all it's cracked up to be?

IronFist
09-20-2001, 09:32 AM
don't use anything that ends with -dione.

are they still making "androstenedione" anymore? There's so much shìt now... andro this and andro that, 17-4-nor-andro-3-2-fina-clyclo-diol, etc.

Basically, prohormones are just weak steroids. What does that mean? It means weaker results and weaker side effects. What? Andros cause side effects? Yep.

Let me summarize everything for you. The only andro that does not suck right now is called 1-AD. It is made by ergopharm. www.ergopharm.com (http://www.ergopharm.com). It is a little androgenic, so if you are prone to baldness or gyno or anything you might want to avoid it, as it will tend to increase your chances of these things.

If you are worried about side effects, ergopharm makes something (i forgot what) that is not androgenic at all. That means no secondary-male-sexual-traits (baldness, excess body hair, etc.) It's not as strong as 1-AD, but it still works supposedly. You'll find it on their website.

Most andro stuff sucks. I would stay away from anything made by biotest.

Iron

--edit--

i just read this post again. i totally contradicted myself. MOST andros suck, not all except 1-AD. There's probably 2 or 3 good ones.

If you use some post your results.

neptunesfall
09-20-2001, 03:16 PM
i've used nor-andro's before (17 and 14)and noticed a marked increase in that distinct "muscular" feeling during my work outs. the brand i used was biotech, i believe. as for the side effects...i only used about 21 days worth ( 1 cycle ) and did not notice any. just my $0.02...

Scarletmantis
09-20-2001, 08:58 PM
I've been using Twin Lab's "Andro Fuel" for three days now. One dose has 100mg Pharmaceutical grade Androstenedion/ 400mg standardized Yohimbe Extract. I plan on using two 30 day cycles. I'm also on Creatine Monohydrate.

It's way too early to tell how it's working, but I've had the worst night's sleep the past three days. That's why I posted as this is one of the listed side effects. If my sleeplessness continues for another eleven days, I'm going to stop using the Andro.

fmann
09-20-2001, 10:26 PM
There was a study that found that andro is converted more to estrogen rather than testosterone. AKA if you want to have breasts, keep using it.

Another interesting study involved the placebo effect -- athletes that were told they were using andro, but rather were given regular protein powders, etc., still said they felt the effects. Basically, if you think you're taking a steroid and think you can train harder, you'll train harder.

Scarletmantis
09-20-2001, 11:42 PM
Fmann, thanks for the heads up. Could you direct me to the source of the study you sighted?

Silumkid
09-21-2001, 04:27 AM
IronFist,

I had actually heard that 1-AD was a naturally ocurring substance so the estrogen conversion was nil. Your post was the first time I have heard otherwise. Could you please direct me to any sites or studies that have researched this more? So far, all I have seen is the stuff written by the guy who discovered it.

As far as andros go, -diones are now becoming considered less than good. -diols supposedly are closer to the anabolic substrate of DecaDurabolin. I have used a supplement called MaxStack with fair results. I am growing increasingly interested in 1-AD.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

fmann
09-21-2001, 06:52 PM
Journal of American Medical Assoc. Study on Andro, Feb. 9, 2000 (http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v283n6/rfull/jci00000.html)

It's a very technical paper, so a good biology background would be necessary to understand it.

There are other articles that reported on it. The bottom line is that men who took 300mg a day of andro experienced a 34% increase in testosterone, but a 128% increase in estrogen precursors. People who took lesser amounts (100mg), experienced statistically insignificant amounts of testosterone increase.

I forgot the link to the placebo effect one, but I think it was a more general steroid study.

IronFist
09-21-2001, 08:29 PM
The reason the placebo effect works is since people think they are on steroids they train harder and eat better.

You'd be amazed how much better people's results would be if they just ate better anyway, without a placebo.

And for those who don't know, steroids don't do anything for you if you don't eat right while on them. It's not some magic drug that makes you blow up with muscle. It's just a component of working out, just like eating and the actual lifting of weights. Many people don't get gains from large doses of roids? Why? Because they didn't eat right (or enough) while on.

Ok, now that ergopharms site is back up i'll try and get the 1-ad info for you.

IronFist
09-21-2001, 08:43 PM
ok. 1-ad.

1-AD doesn't aromatise to estrogens. But, I've heard that it is still a DHT derivative and therefore can cause hairloss. Ergopharm doesn't mention this on their 1-AD site.

However,

Consider their description of their product, Nor-Andro-Spray:

Norandrodiol offers the greatest testosterone conversion, estimated at over a 300% greater conversion than norandrostenedione.

Norandrodiol cannot directly aromatize to estrogen (a problem with norandrostenedione).

Norandrodiol doesn't convert to DHT or its derivatives. DHT is linked to undesirable effects such as male pattern baldness or prostatic hypertrophy (a problem with norandrostenedione).

Specifically read the last one. To me, this norandro spray sounds the safest, and if I were going to use prohormones it would be the one I would choose.

Iron

IronFist
09-21-2001, 08:50 PM
Actually, a lot of their products have that "doesn't aromatize, doesn't contain DHT" message, not just nor-andro spray. 1-AD doesn't though.

Iron

Silumkid
09-23-2001, 03:04 AM
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the info, Iron.

I guess I'll still have to do what I always do though...try and see if it kills me. :D

Experimentation, here I come!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

dumog93
09-23-2001, 07:10 AM
I've taken it by 3 manufacturers.Results-garbage.I think andro is yet another supplement in the snake-oil line.I took it for about 4 months with little or effect.The people trying to scare others off with talk of aromatization is hilarious though.I really doubt that andro has anything of substance to convert to estrogen myself.Then again,i'm not a scientist and am only stating results i have noticed through usage,far from a clinical study.I give two thumbs down.I would also like to kick Marc McGuire in the nads for having me believe this might actually be useful to promoting strength gains.Again...old game used by pros.Pro x takes 1000mgs of (insert favorite steroid),claims to be natural and that he owes it all to whatever supplement he wants to push at the time(and shielding himself from the negative views of those against steroids,plus avoiding jail time).It's just sad that i still fell for it yet again:)

-Devildog

Ford Prefect
09-23-2001, 06:52 PM
Gained 30 lbs while on andro. Not sure if andro is what did it or not.

Scarletmantis
09-23-2001, 09:02 PM
I've stopped taking it. I didn't get a single night's rest in a week. Day after I'm off it, I slept just fine. :rolleyes:

ElPietro
09-23-2001, 10:02 PM
I haven't done much research into andro as I've never had a problem bulking up or needing testosterone supps, but what I have read is that you cannot specifically target testosterone hormone production without also targeting potential estrogen production. I believe that when you take these supps there is a 50/50 chance that it could also trigger increased estrogen production. Like I said I'm not interested in these supps so I've never gone and looked to verify these results...just things I've heard from others I would consider knowledgeable.