A Hypothetical Face of Kung Fu To The World

[Faruq]

If Bruce Lee had never happened and Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do had never become such popular martial arts, what system of gong fu do you think should represent gong fu to the world?

[Jimbo]

There already is one; Taiji quan. Worldwide, there are more people who do Taiji than Wing Chun.

[TenTigers]

Central Kuoshu in Nanjing was established in the early 1900's as well as Jing Mo.
In the 1940's Wu-Shu was already being instituted in Chinese schools.
So, perhaps wu-shu and sanshou.

[Faruq]

Central Kuoshu in Nanjing was established in the early 1900's as well as Jing Mo.
In the 1940's Wu-Shu was already being instituted in Chinese schools.
So, perhaps wu-shu and sanshou.

Are you saying Wu-shu began before the cultural revolution and the machine gunning of some 15,000 gong fu masters? Wow. I didn't know that. The Chinese government really didn't want any competent martial artists who could challenge it! Deep.

[hskwarrior]

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut for Stand Up CoMbAt

[TenTigers]

Are you saying Wu-shu began before the cultural revolution and the machine gunning of some 15,000 gong fu masters? Wow. I didn't know that. The Chinese government really didn't want any competent martial artists who could challenge it! Deep.\
dude, they've been executing Gung-Fu Masters since the Ching Dynasty.
"Fan Ching Fuk Ming!"

[pazman]

With no wing chun, the world would be a better place.

[Bacon]

With no wing chun, the world would be a better place.

There are plenty of other "martial" arts I'd get rid of first starting with wushu.

[bawang]

With no wing chun, the world would be a better place.

death is a preferable alternative to wing chun.

[Vajramusti]

death is a preferable alternative to wing chun.

Check;

burial

cremation

other?

[Bacon]

death is a preferable alternative to wing chun.

Coming from a tai chi practitioner that's pretty laughable. But if you insist I'll dispatch my ninjas :D

[bawang]

Coming from a tai chi practitioner that's pretty laughable. But if you insist I'll dispatch my ninjas :D

i train muay thai and tell people i do tai ji.

so bring it, subhuman wing chun creature.

[Bacon]

i train muay thai and tell people i do tai ji.

so bring it, subhuman wing chun creature.

I would love to but sadly I'm too tired from laughing at your posts in the religion thread :D also my ninjas would not allow it.

[bawang]

I would love to but sadly I'm too tired from laughing at your posts in the religion thread :D also my ninjas would not allow it.

hes getting what he deserves for being such a vagina cleansing device.

dude got obessive compulsive or something, making 20 religion threads a day.

[Bacon]

hes getting what he deserves for being such a vagina cleansing device.

dude got obessive compulsive or something, making 20 religion threads a day.

Well I will agree that is excessive :p

[pazman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeRSepyuQCA

Wing Chun is fat and even more passive aggressive than taichi.

[xinyidizi]

Central Kuoshu in Nanjing was established in the early 1900's as well as Jing Mo.
In the 1940's Wu-Shu was already being instituted in Chinese schools.
So, perhaps wu-shu and sanshou.


What do you mean by wushu? Was wushu a specific style back then?

[Lucas]

The government was never afraid of martial artists. Abolishing martial arts had more to do with the national identity of a people.

[Lee Chiang Po]

What is passive aggressive? It is a contradiction of terms I think. You know, there are very few if any real gung fu fighters on this forum. I think it is more a fantasy forum really. Wing Chun is probably the only real true fighting art that is represented by this forum, and most of what I see is just a chi sao compitition rather then a fighting system. I think that is why people look at it with such a jaundiced eye. I lay that off on Ip Man for teaching it to white folk.

[pazman]

Passive aggressiveness is expressing negative or destructive emotions in a subtle or indirect way. And you are right....chi sao and push hands are very prone to passive aggressiveness. This is one of the many lessons I learned in China, never accept a "push hands" match from a stranger. It's a good way to get sucker punched. Offering a sparring match will usually be answered with accusations of being violent and possibly getting the cops called on you.

This is why I like Sanda. Two people can have a clean, safe place to test their skills and know exactly where their skill stands.

[Bacon]

At the very least it gives you a commonly known ruleset under which to compete

[Faruq]

dude, they've been executing Gung-Fu Masters since the Ching Dynasty.
"Fan Ching Fuk Ming!"

Yeah I know, with the burning of the temple back in 1642. But that didn't start Wu-shu; just proliferated real gong gu throughout the country. The surprise to me was that Wu-shu would have started before the executions. I thought it started when the government realized what a great treasure they had lost when all those masters were executed, and in an effort to recapture it, they created the empty shell that is Wu-shu.

[Jimbo]

The Cultural Revolution was from 1966 to 1976; what is referred to as the modern, standardized 'Wu Shu' performance sport was started at least as early as the 1950s.

[David Jamieson]

The Cultural Revolution was from 1966 to 1976; what is referred to as the modern, standardized 'Wu Shu' performance sport was started at least as early as the 1950s.

True. Somewhere around '53 it started getting standardized.
In the 70's much of what was being passed off as traditional was in fact standardized wu shu with a lot of hyper extension and decimation of martial practicality. IN the 90's it was all re-organized into what we more or less see today with an addition here or there.

In truth, the traditional kung fu, with the exception of North Shaolin and Eagle Claw is pretty non-fancy, real straight line of attack, good footwork etc. So much so that when people see it, they don't believe it's Kung Fu because you aren't flying through the air like a fooking monkey. :p

[Faruq]

Well, I think Pak Mei Pai could represent gong fu to the world, or if not Pak Mei Pai Hung Kuen or Chan Sau Chung's system.

[Shaolin]

If Bruce Lee had never happened and Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do had never become such popular martial arts, what system of gong fu do you think should represent gong fu to the world?

Shaolin. But I'm biased.

[mickey]

Greetings,

If Bruce Lee was not around, there might be a higher level of kung fu in this country and around the world.

It was not Bruce Lee that triggered the "sudden interest" in the Chinese martial arts, it was the kung fu movie boom triggered by Serafim Karalexis, beginning with Five Fingers of Death. It was the '70's that posed the question as to whether Karate was better that Chinese martial arts. And a few came forward to represent: Hui Cambrelen, Tayari Casel, and Paul Vizzio. They did represent well. Yet it would take few losses for more of the the real stuff to be shared by the Chinese community and if Bruce Lee did not exist, I think it would have happened a lot sooner. It's a face thing.

The presence of Wushu in this country had a lot to do with the Nixon administration. It was China's export to the world.

mickey

[PalmStriker]

When I was young and first heard of Chinese Kung fu in the 6o's, I envisioned something that would look just like the movement and ferocity in this video. This is how real kungfu should be presented, everything else, scraped. :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYdl9DX25Rc&feature=related

[MightyB]

I think the TCMA image would've come much later - actually how it's evolving now. Jet Li would've done Shaolin Temple creating the craze that it did - and some 20 years later, Hollywood choreographers would've discovered TCMA. So I'm guessing it'd play out pretty much the same way as it has since BL's death on the Hollywood side.

On the practitioner side too - TCMA has pretty much been an underground thing here in the states. Usually immigrants / students from China or HK came here and set up shop with small numbers attending.

The international face probably would be a toss up between Jackie Chan and Jet Li. They still would have been huge in Asia, and Hollywood would've eventually found them.

[Shaolin]

If there were no Bruce Lee Chuck Norris would have been even bigger.

[Faruq]

Shaolin. But I'm biased.

Pre wushu Shaolin, or post wushu era Shaolin?

[bawang]

If Bruce Lee had never happened and Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do had never become such popular martial arts, what system of gong fu do you think should represent gong fu to the world?


boxer rebellion plum flower boxing + authentic demon posssesion rituals and catholic nun burning

[Faruq]

Greetings,...It was the '70's that posed the question as to whether Karate was better that Chinese martial arts. And a few came forward to represent: Hui Cambrelen, Tayari Casel, and Paul Vizzio. They did represent well. Yet it would take few losses for more of the the real stuff to be shared by the Chinese...mickey

Wow! Great comments! Who did Hui and these guys fight from the karate world? And what do you mean by "Yet it would take few losses for more of the the real stuff to be shared by the Chinese"? What more of the "real stuff" ended up being shared by the Chinese?

[TenTigers]

ahh..you said which system of Gung-Fu SHOULD represent to the wrold. I thought you meant which system WOULD represent to the world.
So, what you are asking is, what do we think is the best representation of TCMA in its purity?
I think that would be Hung-Kuen and Jook Lum mantis.....and some Shuai Jiao thrown in..(haha I said, "thrown!")
but I'm just a wee tad biased...

[bawang]

ahh..you said which system of Gung-Fu SHOULD represent to the wrold. I thought you meant which system WOULD represent to the world.
So, what you are asking is, what do we think is the best representation of TCMA in its purity?
I think that would be Hung-Kuen and Jook Lum mantis.....and some Shuai Jiao thrown in..(haha I said, "thrown!")
but I'm just a wee tad biased...

you guys stroke an invisible beard and hop around on an invisible pony and you wanna represent kung fu?

SHAMEFUL DISPLAY

[TenTigers]

you guys stroke an invisible beard and hop around on an invisible pony and you wanna represent kung fu?

SHAMEFUL DISPLAY
dude, I'm channeling!

[mickey]

Greetings,

For Faruq:

Hui Cambrelen: He would take on ANYBODY. He is a true urban legend. His fights were mostly underground. The top student of Grandmaster Wai Hong.

Tayari Casel: Fought successfully in the Karate circuit on the East Coast. Known for his groundfighting. Student of Master George Hu Ling

Paul Vizzio: Fought underground fights as well as in the PKA. In the latter he showed the effectiveness of Chinese style kicking. Another high ranking student of Grandmaster Wai Hong.

In terms of losses, that is what it would take for more to be taught. If you would look at Mainland China's approach to the current MA scene, they are looking at it and studying it with the goal of becoming NUMBER ONE. The effectiveness of Kung fu vs Karate was a major question here in NYC back then because street effectiveness was needed and because of the economics of it. The already established Karate Schools would lose money if the public saw the CMA as superior. Case in point: Tayari Casel participated in a Karate vs Kung Fu events at Aaron Banks' Oriental World of Self Defense. Banks tried his best to stack the odds against Tayari Casel. He did not put a straight up Karate guy against Casel. He had him go against "Little" John Davis, a Vee- Jitsu practitioner. They fought three rounds. Though Casel lost by only one point, those who witnessed it though it was the best match they had seen in their life. I had the opportunity to see the first round and the decision on ABC's Wide World of Sports. At the decision time Casel looked incredibly composed and was hardly sweating. Little John Davis looked as if he spent three days in Hell. He was drenched in sweat. And when he was given the win, his face looked as if he knew otherwise.

mickey

[TenTigers]

let's also not forget the match between Tayari Casel and Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, another "stacked" fight.

[mickey]

Greetings TenTigers,

I never saw that fight. I do remember reading a response from Tayari Casel about the fight in Official Karate. Apparently, he was told that he was allowed to use groundfighting before the match only to find that the match was stopped every time he went to the ground and was told to get up. So he could not fight his fight.

mickey

[Shaolin]

Pre wushu Shaolin, or post wushu era Shaolin?

Pre. I've worked hard to learn and stick to not only the classic sets but to perform them the classic way. It's taken a long time and a lot of research and the work still seems to never be done.

[nubianmantis]

Greetings Family. To: Faruq and Mickey, China has Two Faces at All times;One Private,One Public. In My travels to China and Asia;I noticed that Family and Weatlh come First;Not Chinese Martial arts. A full Rice Bowl is the goal,that being said Fighters such as Hui, Tayari, Paul All had to work jobs and train kung-fu.When you do not have worry about food,clothing,housing,money;a person can train,study,and eat the proper foods to be Number one.Also,Its Others such as Sifu's Nganga Tolonaa of Chicago,Carl Albright, Raymond Fogg, Twa-ku of the Egyptian fighting arts society in chicago who have displayed Great groundfighting skills throughout the early years. In addition, We can not win fights,using MMA rules. The Art of Shuai Chiao as taught by Great Master Chang Tung Sheng is a Counter to MMA Fights. The Goal is Full-Time Fighters and Trainers. Be Well.NM.

[Tao Of The Fist]

boxer rebellion plum flower boxing + authentic demon posssesion rituals and catholic nun burning

That is the power of my plum flower fist, we unsuccessfully drove the christian devils out of china and we can do it again! Besides, how many styles have a cart that can be broken down into weapons?

[YouKnowWho]

what system of gong fu do you think should represent gong fu to the world?
I like to look at TCMA from the angle of speed, power, throw, and lock. IMO, the

- prey mantis, Zimen can represent the speed generation,
- Baji, Chen Taiji, XYLH can represent the power generation,
- SC can represent the throwing art,
- eagle claw, longfist can represent the locking art,

for the TCMA.

[Faruq]

Greetings,

For Faruq:

Hui Cambrelen: He would take on ANYBODY. He is a true urban legend. His fights were mostly underground. The top student of Grandmaster Wai Hong.

Tayari Casel: Fought successfully in the Karate circuit on the East Coast. Known for his groundfighting. Student of Master George Hu Ling

Paul Vizzio: Fought underground fights as well as in the PKA. In the latter he showed the effectiveness of Chinese style kicking. Another high ranking student of Grandmaster Wai Hong.
mickey

Thanks, Mickey. I only know who Hui Cambrelen is from seeing an old 70s documentary called "the Warrior Within" if I'm not mistaken. It inteviewed a young Hui who told of walking through NYC's Chinatown and being attacked one day and having stabbed his attacker in the eye with 2 chop sticks. I wish there was some kind of blog or book (like Piri Thomas' "Down These Mean Streets") that told the full story of Hui's urban legend. Isn't he in Puerto Rico now? And Tak Wah Eng is another of Wai Hong's guys isn't he? I don't know much else about him other than having watched his ESPY-TV iron palm tape. Anyway, very interesting what you say about all of the guys you mention. I wish there were more information about all of their exploits. Thanks again.

[Lucas]

Chuck Norris.

[Faruq]

boxer rebellion plum flower boxing + authentic demon posssesion rituals and catholic nun burning

Thanks a lot bawang:( How about a real answer based on your real opinion for once, bro?

[Faruq]

Pre. I've worked hard to learn and stick to not only the classic sets but to perform them the classic way. It's taken a long time and a lot of research and the work still seems to never be done.

Thank God you didn't say post! lol