Iron palm/body questions

[Bacon]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

[bawang]

performance enhancing drugs

[Raipizo]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

How do you know they don't?, and I have no idea about the last one.

[Dale Dugas]

nothing but a net ghost....

[KungFu2012]

nothing but a net ghost....

Truer Words have never been spoken

[Kevin73]

Ummm....striking a heavy bag filled with dense materials IS a lower level of iron palm/body training.

There was an article posted on here somewhere about how Pacquiao's training mimics iron palm training and leads to his "heavy hands" and punching power for his weight.

[Dale Dugas]

So Kevin73,

If its a LOW level as you hint at.

What pray tell would the advanced methods be?

[Empty_Cup]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

My understanding is that native Thai fighters practice their shin kicks against banana trees which is a form of iron shin conditioning. As far as your question of why more full contact fighters don't practice...that's a good question. Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has done iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years?

The science of Wolff's law is well-known. We even observe the opposite effect regularly in astronauts who go to space. Not sure why you're so adamant in denying what science has come to understand through years of observation, hypothesis, and experimentation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

Different systems use different methods.
Old time boxers ( like Marciano for example) used heavier sand bags and punched with ether bare hands or just wraps to condition their hands.
Thai boxers use the HB and other methods.
TCMA use their methods as do the JMA and OMA and KMA.
In Kyokushin we used a variety of methods.

In boxing we do drills where we are being hit to get used to taking shots, this is the boxing version of Iron Body.

I think you are trying to find issues with something that you think is something that it isn't.

[Jimbo]

I remember back in the '90s, world-class boxer Kostya Tszyu claimed that he practiced iron palm as part of his training, and he said that it helped him.

[Bacon]

Ummm....striking a heavy bag filled with dense materials IS a lower level of iron palm/body training.
You're making my point for me. They're doing something which is both increasing thier striking power and allowing them to practice combinations. As for the conditioning of the hands, considering these guys do it full time as professionals with power which dwarfs most fighters by leaps and bounds but then are quite prone to hand breakage when getting into bare knuckle fights.... Again. Where's the benefit.


Different systems use different methods.
Old time boxers ( like Marciano for example) used heavier sand bags and punched with ether bare hands or just wraps to condition their hands.
And those guys wouldn't be able to stand and bang in the ring with the fighters of today or twenty years ago so this doesn't help your case.


Thai boxers use the HB and other methods.
They use the Heavy bag and Thai pads. Also I'd keep in mind that by the time they're 30 many pro Thai boxers have major issues because of the beating their bodies have taken. So again, not the best sample group to draw from.


TCMA use their methods as do the JMA and OMA and KMA.
In Kyokushin we used a variety of methods.
Ask someone like Bas Rutten who did Kyokushin whether any of that iron


In boxing we do drills where we are being hit to get used to taking shots, this is the boxing version of Iron Body.[\quote]
And that is actually justifiable. You need to learn how to take shots. But boxing, jma, and oma, generally also prescribe a much more serious training regimen. At least the traditional schools.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186731]I think you are trying to find issues with something that you think is something that it isn't.
No. And I have fought more than a few "iron" guys and all of them should have spent more time learning how to actually fight than on their conditioning methods. The jma and oma guys could actually fight decently at least but didn't try touting their magical iron conditioning.

And as a side not I didn't start this thread to bash iron conditioning. I was lookin for any kind of scientific data, or assumptions on the subject.

[Lucas]

machida uses makiwara. and that just one guy really quickly off the top of my head. and he was a champ for a while too. there are more. do your own research. this vid shows him using it. and yes makiwara is a form of 'iron' type conditioning. dont get attached to the name 'iron' its just a name. hand conditioning and other body part conditioning has been used in all martial arts through out all time. mma uses it too just doesnt call it iron. what do you think getting hit over and over does to you? duhhhhh

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/5/4/1457392/lyoto-machida-talks-strategy-for

attachment is the way to death, fluidity is the way to lilfe

musashi.

some people are so obsessed with trying to debunk things that are just plain common sense, they cant see the forest for the trees.

[IronFist]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

Well, palm conditioning is a real thing. You don't see MMA guys do palm strikes too often, though (maybe some Sakuraba style stuff). I assume there are no rules preventing this type of strike. A punch has better range than a palm strike so more guys punch. A punch also better protects the fingers.

Also, real fighting is very instinctive, and making a fist to generate power is more instinctive than using a palm. Not to mention, a tightly clenched fist allows more overall tension to be generated thus more powerful strikes can be generated.

I suspect palm strikes would work best from a grappling range when you're already close and distance isn't an issue.

Professional fighters do body conditioning. They don't call it "iron body" but they get struck a lot and it increases their ability with withstand strikes in the future. There's no silly qigong component to it. It just happens as part of their training. I don't know if any guys do specific body conditioning training outside of sparring, but I'm sure some probably have at some point.

Most of the "iron body" demos you see are just stage tricks and physics tricks and are blamed on "qi" and designed to make people who want to believe think you have mystic powers. I have written at length about this in other posts so there's no reason to repeat myself here, but if any qigong-based iron body practitioner wanted to show that he was actually using qi rather than physical conditioning and stage tricks, there are easy ways to do so. So far, no one has done it.

So obviously you don't see any of that stuff with professional fighters because they are more concerned with improving their fighting rather than impressing people who want to believe with mystic stage tricks.


I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Muay thai shin conditioning is basically the same thing as iron palm. The bone gets denser because of Wolff's law. Resistance to pain is increased because of a gradual increase in training intensity. Some Muay Thai guys use some liniment. You can use jow, or that peppermint smelling stuff, or Arnica if you believe in homeopathy, or just regular massage, or whatever. The point is to stimulate blood flow. There's no qigong involved in Muay Thai shin training. Iron palm will likely work just as well without the qigong component.


Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

I'm not sure if this has been quantified. You may be able to find more if you Google "Wolff's law".

[IronFist]

My understanding is that native Thai fighters practice their shin kicks against banana trees which is a form of iron shin conditioning. As far as your question of why more full contact fighters don't practice...that's a good question. Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has done iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years?

It is worth mentioning that banana trees have a rubbery bark.

It's not like they kick palm trees like in the movie "Kickboxer."

And I think most guys use heavy bags now anyway.

Everyone hears that Muay Thai guys used to kick trees and they think that's the secret to legendary fighting powers. Your heavy bag is fine, and is probably better.


The science of Wolff's law is well-known. We even observe the opposite effect regularly in astronauts who go to space. Not sure why you're so adamant in denying what science has come to understand through years of observation, hypothesis, and experimentation.

Yup.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Lucas;1186780
some people are so obsessed with trying to debunk things that are just plain common sense, they cant see the forest for the trees.[/QUOTE]

This.
Fact is that its the name and the bad rep given to it by some "muble-jumbo" guys that ruins it.
Almost all striking arts have some form or another of iron hand/iron body work, whatever they choose to call it.

[PlumDragon]

The most effective martial artists Ive ever met dont do any specific conditioning at all--that includes Thai-style shin conditioning. They just get whatever conditioning comes from actually training in an organic, pressurized environment.

Most people I know who do iron palm (including *most* of my iron palm students) cant apply it in the above setting because once theyre put under pressure, the body mechanics disappear. And its the same reason they cant apply 99% of the "techniques" they learn in forms and such (to clarify, I dont teach forms. Im referring to other martial artists who do formwork).

Iron palm does provide some interesting attribute development and I personally enjoy doing it--anyone whos done it diligently for some time can notice it. And anyone whos taken a few months off from it after years of doing it can feel the hands start to get less robust, adapt back to normal. But this attribute development is worthless unless you have trained it under pressure and can successfully pull it off at will at progressively increasing levels of pressure. For most people who train iron palm, its nothing more than a circus act...the ability to break a block is a totally different activity than trying to apply the strike to someones head while theyre trying to do the same to you. If you want skill in your martial art, you train diligently with partners who will put your timing, composure, and reaction to the test...Conditioning is done when you dont have someone around to help you get better...

[Empty_Cup]

I agree with what a number of folks have said regarding iron bone conditioning as complementary to your fighting training...iron bone should not be your only training. It of course makes sense that somebody who only trains to hit a stationary object and never spars, does aerobic exercises, flexibility, speed training, etc. will not be much of an actual fighter.

[YouKnowWho]

When you get old, your finger joint start to develop some arthritics and can't hold a proper fist, your iron palm may be the only dependable striking weapon that you have left.

[Kevin73]

So Kevin73,

If its a LOW level as you hint at.

What pray tell would the advanced methods be?

Hitting a bag with softer materials (mung beans) is the starting level of iron palm/iron body is it not? Then you move up to a harder material (gravel) and then you move up again into an even harder material (steel shot).

So, the starting level is a lower level than where you end up at isn't it? So just hitting a heavy bag is a low level of skill in terms of total iron palm training.


I wasn't down grading the skill, I was pointing out that it is the same training just not taken to a higher level of skill, such as, short power breaking etc. that someone who trains iron palm a long time can do. The question was why don't pro fighters do iron training, my answer is that they do. They just don't call it that and stay at the initial level many times.

[Empty_Cup]

Hitting a bag with softer materials (mung beans) is the starting level of iron palm/iron body is it not? Then you move up to a harder material (gravel) and then you move up again into an even harder material (steel shot).

So, the starting level is a lower level than where you end up at isn't it? So just hitting a heavy bag is a low level of skill in terms of total iron palm training.


I wasn't down grading the skill, I was pointing out that it is the same training just not taken to a higher level of skill, such as, short power breaking etc. that someone who trains iron palm a long time can do. The question was why don't pro fighters do iron training, my answer is that they do. They just don't call it that and stay at the initial level many times.

I understood your initial comment Kevin73 as not being provocative and agree with what you mention above.

Maybe here's the real question for folks, why don't professional fighters practice the more advanced levels of iron bone training beyond heavy bag work and sparring?

[Lucas]

Because they dont need to. They are in a ring. There are ref's. They arent fighting for their life. They have gloves on. There are time limits, and doctors, and TKO's. keep in mind the individuals who developed these methods had none of those luxuries, in many cases. Iron skills were developed for very specific reasons. Some times they were fighting for their lives, or their men were. The better equiped you are to take heavy brunt force and not break, and continue, the longer you will be able to stay going and not sucumb to bodily failure, and thus death or serious injury, or worse, failure.

We dont NEED high end iron skills now days. No body needs it. Its a past time now, something to do because we want to. Also, because many people dont want to see these traditions and methods die into complete obscurity.

It takes time to develop, every day, time a professional fighter would be better off spending on training for their sport.

Fighters simply get the by product form of iron training. Standard bone hardening from hitting things and being hit. Its enough to toughen us up beyond regular people who dont do this type of thing.

[Lee Chiang Po]

My understanding is that native Thai fighters practice their shin kicks against banana trees which is a form of iron shin conditioning. As far as your question of why more full contact fighters don't practice...that's a good question. Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has done iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years?

The science of Wolff's law is well-known. We even observe the opposite effect regularly in astronauts who go to space. Not sure why you're so adamant in denying what science has come to understand through years of observation, hypothesis, and experimentation.

If you have ever been kicked real hard in the shin you must also realize that kicking with the shin hurts just as bad. Imagine the pain and suffering that you will go through kicking trees for years. Not to mention the scabs and proud flesh. I gots to question the sanity of this, especially since you would not really need to do it.

[Raipizo]

Have you guys trained iron back, stomach or chest? If so do you use jow and if so how? On the wing lam dvd they didn't go over using jow for those parts so I took it they don't use it for those areas.

[TenTigers]

doesn't matter what body part..except for eyes and "the boys".;-)
You rub jow in the same way as if it is a bruise-
soak a cotton ball in heated jow and saturate the area for several minutes.
Lightly massage with the cotton ball while doing this. Then apply deeper massage into the affected area in a circular motion from the inside out, keeping it wet to prevent friction on the surface.
If you don't go from inside out, you will be left with a non-bruised inner area with a pretty purple corona.
My teacher used to then slap the area several times to stimulate circulation and then lightly brush towards the heart.
Do this 3x a day.

You should also drink tien chut (raw tienchi powder) in hot water with honey whenever you do iron training, or when you have hard contact to the body, say, after a good shuai-jiao class or sparring.

[Dale Dugas]

There are also internal dit da jows and internal tonics that can be used to help your training.

San Qi/Tin Chut powder can be expensive but its the most used martial arts injury herb out there. You can take it with a shot of alcohol as that will help move it around the whole body. I sell it in my herb store.

You can also get the whole herb and place it in some high proof alcohol and then take a shot of it after you hit yourself.

I make and sell internal tonics that are designed to help with internal and external iron palm/iron body training. You want to make sure you are moving your energy and it is not getting stuck in areas so there are channel opening herbs as well as blood/qi moving herbs.

Let me know if anyone needs internal herbs.

[TenTigers]

There are also internal dit da jows and internal tonics that can be used to help your training.

San Qi/Tin Chut powder can be expensive but its the most used martial arts injury herb out there. You can take it with a shot of alcohol as that will help move it around the whole body. I sell it in my herb store.

You can also get the whole herb and place it in some high proof alcohol and then take a shot of it after you hit yourself.

I make and sell internal tonics that are designed to help with internal and external iron palm/iron body training. You want to make sure you are moving your energy and it is not getting stuck in areas so there are channel opening herbs as well as blood/qi moving herbs.

Let me know if anyone needs internal herbs.
I also use Tien Chut in wine or brandy...
a heckuva lot better tasting than that cobra
I had last summer....

[Raipizo]

doesn't matter what body part..except for eyes and "the boys".;-)
You rub jow in the same way as if it is a bruise-
soak a cotton ball in heated jow and saturate the area for several minutes.
Lightly massage with the cotton ball while doing this. Then apply deeper massage into the affected area in a circular motion from the inside out, keeping it wet to prevent friction on the surface.
If you don't go from inside out, you will be left with a non-bruised inner area with a pretty purple corona.
My teacher used to then slap the area several times to stimulate circulation and then lightly brush towards the heart.
Do this 3x a day.

You should also drink tien chut (raw tienchi powder) in hot water with honey whenever you do iron training, or when you have hard contact to the body, say, after a good shuai-jiao class or sparring.

Yeah I got a bruise on my forearm now :( I have jow and everything it's just how should I go about applying to hard to get areas like the head or back? Dale, any bruise plasters from your site you recommend? Any update on the bags?, that and I see some of the plasters are sold out too. Sorry to bother about bothering about the bags I'm going to be going on vacation soon for a few weeks :P and was wondering if I should expect the when I return.

[ginosifu]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?
I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?


Most likely it's just because it was not part of their teacher's / coaches training regimine. Iron Palm is conditioning, just like any other conditioning. You need conditioning + technique + pressure testing + strength for an overall good fighter.


Well, palm conditioning is a real thing. You don't see MMA guys do palm strikes too often, though (maybe some Sakuraba style stuff). I assume there are no rules preventing this type of strike. A punch has better range than a palm strike so more guys punch. A punch also better protects the fingers.

Also, real fighting is very instinctive, and making a fist to generate power is more instinctive than using a palm. Not to mention, a tightly clenched fist allows more overall tension to be generated thus more powerful strikes can be generated.

I suspect palm strikes would work best from a grappling range when you're already close and distance isn't an issue.

Professional fighters do body conditioning. They don't call it "iron body" but they get struck a lot and it increases their ability with withstand strikes in the future. There's no silly qigong component to it. It just happens as part of their training. I don't know if any guys do specific body conditioning training outside of sparring, but I'm sure some probably have at some point.

Most of the "iron body" demos you see are just stage tricks and physics tricks and are blamed on "qi" and designed to make people who want to believe think you have mystic powers. I have written at length about this in other posts so there's no reason to repeat myself here, but if any qigong-based iron body practitioner wanted to show that he was actually using qi rather than physical conditioning and stage tricks, there are easy ways to do so. So far, no one has done it.

So obviously you don't see any of that stuff with professional fighters because they are more concerned with improving their fighting rather than impressing people who want to believe with mystic stage tricks.

Muay thai shin conditioning is basically the same thing as iron palm. The bone gets denser because of Wolff's law. Resistance to pain is increased because of a gradual increase in training intensity. Some Muay Thai guys use some liniment. You can use jow, or that peppermint smelling stuff, or Arnica if you believe in homeopathy, or just regular massage, or whatever. The point is to stimulate blood flow. There's no qigong involved in Muay Thai shin training. Iron palm will likely work just as well without the qigong component.

I would disagree with your statement that a clenched fist is more instinctive that a palm. A clenched fit is a learned habit, a open palm is natural and moves faster than a clenched fist.

TCMA Iron Body is the same as any other body conditioning. You hit your body parts progressively harder and more times like Iron Palm. However, that silly Qigong is a part of it. Breathing practices are a part of many TCMA training regimines. This is not to say that other practices without qigong don't work or are not as effective, just different.


The most effective martial artists Ive ever met dont do any specific conditioning at all--that includes Thai-style shin conditioning. They just get whatever conditioning comes from actually training in an organic, pressurized environment.

Most people I know who do iron palm (including *most* of my iron palm students) cant apply it in the above setting because once theyre put under pressure, the body mechanics disappear. And its the same reason they cant apply 99% of the "techniques" they learn in forms and such (to clarify, I dont teach forms. Im referring to other martial artists who do formwork).

Iron palm does provide some interesting attribute development and I personally enjoy doing it--anyone whos done it diligently for some time can notice it. And anyone whos taken a few months off from it after years of doing it can feel the hands start to get less robust, adapt back to normal. But this attribute development is worthless unless you have trained it under pressure and can successfully pull it off at will at progressively increasing levels of pressure. For most people who train iron palm, its nothing more than a circus act...the ability to break a block is a totally different activity than trying to apply the strike to someones head while theyre trying to do the same to you. If you want skill in your martial art, you train diligently with partners who will put your timing, composure, and reaction to the test...Conditioning is done when you dont have someone around to help you get better...

Again I disagree with the statement that practcies like Iron Palm don't work in real combat situations. It takes a Sifu that knows how to teach you the way to hit with IP. You also needs specific drills (solo and partner), that use only IP techniques. If you are diligent you can learn to apply them in combat. Now I do not have any video of me slapping anyone with my IP but I can use it Sparring or San Da situations. I have not enough street fights to have used it there though.

ginosifu

[Empty_Cup]

...


Again I disagree with the statement that practcies like Iron Palm don't work in real combat situations. It takes a Sifu that knows how to teach you the way to hit with IP. You also needs specific drills (solo and partner), that use only IP techniques. If you are diligent you can learn to apply them in combat. Now I do not have any video of me slapping anyone with my IP but I can use it Sparring or San Da situations. I have not enough street fights to have used it there though.

ginosifu

Iron Bone conditioning isn't really a "technique" you have to find an opening to use on your opponent. It densifies and strengthens the bones/sinews so by practicing Iron Bone it's always a part of you. In a fight whether you slap somebody, block, or kick them with a shin, you have iron bone conditioning and it will be a more effective slap, block, kick, etc. than it was before you trained iron bone.

So, there is no "pressure testing" for applying iron bone conditioning because if you've conditioned, you already have it. There is, of course, "pressure testing" for actual fighting technique and skill but that is separate from whether somebody has done iron bone conditioning or not.

[PlumDragon]

Again I disagree with the statement that practcies like Iron Palm don't work in real combat situations. It takes a Sifu that knows how to teach you the way to hit with IP. You also needs specific drills (solo and partner), that use only IP techniques. If you are diligent you can learn to apply them in combat. Now I do not have any video of me slapping anyone with my IP but I can use it Sparring or San Da situations. I have not enough street fights to have used it there though.
Hi Ginosifu,
I didnt mean to imply that "practices like iron palm dont work in real combat situations." Theres nothing about iron palm itself that makes it unusable. Let me try to elaborate a bit:

Conditioning is done outside of a pressurized situation. There is no threat. That is true for Thai kicks and limb-knocking and all that stuff. Therefore, those skills are only available in that non-pressurized setting. For iron palm or whatever to work under pressure, it has to be trained under pressure. Im not talking about "pressure testing". Its not about testing it under pressure, its about actually installing it under pressure, with a threat, real-time. Thats why I say, the best fighters Ive ever met dispense with conditioning entirely--they understand that time spent in the mix is where the skill is built--not in front of a bag, or a banana tree, or whatever. And subsequently, when I work with my students, even though I encourage them to conditioning in their spare time, I feel there are more important things to work on while they are in a class or similar setting...

You say you use it in san da and sparring. But do you think you are issuing the same amount of power? Maybe as you attack, you are thinking, "Hey Im using my iron palm!", and maybe even the motion is similar...But how do you know your body mechanics are intact as they are when youre slapping your bag? These are rhetorical questions, Im not attempting to disregard or repute your statements above. Just food for thought...

Empty cup: Theres a lot more to "iron bone" than strengthening the bone and sinew. Its body mechanics. You just slap a bag and get hard hands, you still dont have the power generation...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any forging process conditions the weapon in question and that is ALL that is does.
How one applies the "forged limb" is what "fighting" is all about.
IP and IB training has nothing to do with fighting ( although IB training because if its nature SHOULD have practical/fighting elements in it as part of the training process).

[ginosifu]

Iron Bone conditioning isn't really a "technique" you have to find an opening to use on your opponent. It densifies and strengthens the bones/sinews so by practicing Iron Bone it's always a part of you. In a fight whether you slap somebody, block, or kick them with a shin, you have iron bone conditioning and it will be a more effective slap, block, kick, etc. than it was before you trained iron bone.

So, there is no "pressure testing" for applying iron bone conditioning because if you've conditioned, you already have it. There is, of course, "pressure testing" for actual fighting technique and skill but that is separate from whether somebody has done iron bone conditioning or not.

IP is not solely "conditioning", there is a whole IP fighting style associated with it. While learning IP, I was taught specific iron palm fighting techniques.


Hi Ginosifu,
I didnt mean to imply that "practices like iron palm dont work in real combat situations." Theres nothing about iron palm itself that makes it unusable. Let me try to elaborate a bit:

Conditioning is done outside of a pressurized situation. There is no threat. That is true for Thai kicks and limb-knocking and all that stuff. Therefore, those skills are only available in that non-pressurized setting. For iron palm or whatever to work under pressure, it has to be trained under pressure. Im not talking about "pressure testing". Its not about testing it under pressure, its about actually installing it under pressure, with a threat, real-time. Thats why I say, the best fighters Ive ever met dispense with conditioning entirely--they understand that time spent in the mix is where the skill is built--not in front of a bag, or a banana tree, or whatever. And subsequently, when I work with my students, even though I encourage them to conditioning in their spare time, I feel there are more important things to work on while they are in a class or similar setting...

You say you use it in san da and sparring. But do you think you are issuing the same amount of power? Maybe as you attack, you are thinking, "Hey Im using my iron palm!", and maybe even the motion is similar...But how do you know your body mechanics are intact as they are when youre slapping your bag? These are rhetorical questions, Im not attempting to disregard or repute your statements above. Just food for thought...

Empty cup: Theres a lot more to "iron bone" than strengthening the bone and sinew. Its body mechanics. You just slap a bag and get hard hands, you still dont have the power generation...

While in sparring or more realistic combat situations.... it is difficult to always have perfect body structure or issue maximum amount of power. This happens in any style of combat... the object is to try and perfect the IP techniques during classroom sparring and hopefully you will apply it during a street encounter with the same amount of structure and power.

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

Yeah I got a bruise on my forearm now :( I have jow and everything it's just how should I go about applying to hard to get areas like the head or back? Dale, any bruise plasters from your site you recommend? Any update on the bags?, that and I see some of the plasters are sold out too. Sorry to bother about bothering about the bags I'm going to be going on vacation soon for a few weeks :P and was wondering if I should expect the when I return.


I just got my bags in and will be adding them back to the site in a few minutes. Prices have gone up a little but nothing major. The price of shipping has increased and I have to raise my prices like everyone else to account for it.

I am out of plasters and my wholesaler is waiting for a shipment. Should be in , in about a week. People buy me out too fast, that I have trouble keeping them in stock.

Applying jow to the head, be careful as you really do not want these herbs to get into your eyes or ears. I would use pills for injuries to the head rather than jow it up. The back is tough if you do not have a girl/boyfriend, spouse, partner to help you apply it to your back. You can buy one of these little tools http://www.drleonards.com/Personal-Care/Cosmetics-Skin-Care/Lotion-Applicator/97938.cfm?key=18139102&cm_mmc=PaidSearch-_-GooglePLA-_-FreeShip-_-97938

Many customers report they work great to jow to those hard to reach places.

[Raipizo]

I just got my bags in and will be adding them back to the site in a few minutes. Prices have gone up a little but nothing major. The price of shipping has increased and I have to raise my prices like everyone else to account for it.

I am out of plasters and my wholesaler is waiting for a shipment. Should be in , in about a week. People buy me out too fast, that I have trouble keeping them in stock.

Applying jow to the head, be careful as you really do not want these herbs to get into your eyes or ears. I would use pills for injuries to the head rather than jow it up. The back is tough if you do not have a girl/boyfriend, spouse, partner to help you apply it to your back. You can buy one of these little tools http://www.drleonards.com/Personal-Care/Cosmetics-Skin-Care/Lotion-Applicator/97938.cfm?key=18139102&cm_mmc=PaidSearch-_-GooglePLA-_-FreeShip-_-97938

Many customers report they work great to jow to those hard to reach places.

Aw cool that applicator is pretty cool. Would pills be used only for injury or prevention also? About the bags, great I've been waiting :D

[TenTigers]

Any forging process conditions the weapon in question and that is ALL that is does.
How one applies the "forged limb" is what "fighting" is all about.
IP and IB training has nothing to do with fighting ( although IB training because if its nature SHOULD have practical/fighting elements in it as part of the training process).
Makiwara, and IP bag striking is all about power generation, and when practiced correctly, should develop relaxed power, which develops into explosive power..or a correct strike, which translates directly to fighting.
The "forging" is a result of the continued striking, but is only to condition the weapon to withstand your own power, and should not be considered the main goal.
It is not the aim of IP training to simply have a hard hand. A hard hand without the ability to generate correct power is useless.
My teacher and hing-dai have often commented on the hardness of my arms and hand when contact is made in regular training. The power eventually comes out in your hands.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Makiwara, and IP bag striking is all about power generation, and when practiced correctly, should develop relaxed power, which develops into explosive power..or a correct strike, which translates directly to fighting.
The "forging" is a result of the continued striking, but is only to condition the weapon to withstand your own power, and should not be considered the main goal.
It is not the aim of IP training to simply have a hard hand. A hard hand without the ability to generate correct power is useless.
My teacher and hing-dai have often commented on the hardness of my arms and hand when contact is made in regular training. The power eventually comes out in your hands.

Meh...
I think that the power becomes a byproduct of the training due to the "forging" process allowing one to hit "heavier" AND and more relaxed, but I don't see the actual motion and "strike" doing that since, typically, it is not done as it should be in a "real fight".

[Empty_Cup]

It sounds like "I.P. techniques" is a misnomer; the technique is the technique. A punch is a punch. A chop is a chop. The success of that technique, however, can be affected by level of iron bone conditioning.

Let's take a block, for example, since it is generally a more defensive technique. For somebody who has practiced iron bone conditioning for a long time, if they block a strike from somebody who has not done bone conditioning, you can sure bet that the striker is the one who will get injured. And the injury will be relative to the force of their own strike.

The block was a block, though. Not a special "I.P. block" technique that only works if you have done iron bone conditioning. So anybody could use that block. The effectiveness, though, of a block from an iron bone practitioner and a normal person is drastically different.

The same concept can be used to talk about any kind of technique. No technique is an "I.P. technique," but rather has more or less of a chance of success if that person has practiced iron bone.

[Featherstone]

You can buy one of these little tools http://www.drleonards.com/Personal-Care/Cosmetics-Skin-Care/Lotion-Applicator/97938.cfm?key=18139102&cm_mmc=PaidSearch-_-GooglePLA-_-FreeShip-_-97938

Many customers report they work great to jow to those hard to reach places.

I got one of these in a welcome packet from the Arthritis Foundation a few years ago. Works great!

[TenTigers]

It sounds like "I.P. techniques" is a misnomer; the technique is the technique. A punch is a punch. A chop is a chop. The success of that technique, however, can be affected by level of iron bone conditioning.

Let's take a block, for example, since it is generally a more defensive technique. For somebody who has practiced iron bone conditioning for a long time, if they block a strike from somebody who has not done bone conditioning, you can sure bet that the striker is the one who will get injured. And the injury will be relative to the force of their own strike.

The block was a block, though. Not a special "I.P. block" technique that only works if you have done iron bone conditioning. So anybody could use that block. The effectiveness, though, of a block from an iron bone practitioner and a normal person is drastically different.

The same concept can be used to talk about any kind of technique. No technique is an "I.P. technique," but rather has more or less of a chance of success if that person has practiced iron bone.
pretty much. Look at it like this-if I whack you with a rattan stick, or with an iron bar.
But..there are style specific striking methods, power issuing techniques that within each style are incorporated into the IP training, rather than simply dropping your hand on the bags.
SPM has specific IP methods that match its technique.

[Lee Chiang Po]

So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

I used to watch this cage fighting until I begin to find it boring, and on two occasions I witnessed people actually breaking their own legs with these silly Muay Thai shin kicks. One was an asian girl, the other was a large white man. I am sure that it happens far more than that. It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want. And I would have to be skeptical even then. If you are not working as a soldier in some chinese army way back when, you would have absolutely no need to do this. It is self injurous to say the very least and I personally do not think you should do it. As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

[Empty_Cup]

I used to watch this cage fighting until I begin to find it boring, and on two occasions I witnessed people actually breaking their own legs with these silly Muay Thai shin kicks. One was an asian girl, the other was a large white man. I am sure that it happens far more than that. It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want. And I would have to be skeptical even then. If you are not working as a soldier in some chinese army way back when, you would have absolutely no need to do this. It is self injurous to say the very least and I personally do not think you should do it. As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has practiced iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15+ years?

[IronWeasel]

I used to watch this cage fighting until I begin to find it boring, and on two occasions I witnessed people actually breaking their own legs with these silly Muay Thai shin kicks. One was an asian girl, the other was a large white man. I am sure that it happens far more than that. It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want. And I would have to be skeptical even then. If you are not working as a soldier in some chinese army way back when, you would have absolutely no need to do this. It is self injurous to say the very least and I personally do not think you should do it. As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.






..........:rolleyes:

[Dale Dugas]

again with lots of talk from people who have never shown who they are, what they can actually do via video.

No offense, but put up or shut up.

simple.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

again with lots of talk from people who have never shown who they are, what they can actually do via video.

No offense, but put up or shut up.

simple.

Your lack of reasoning never ceases to amaze.

Regardless of whether Lee Chiang Po has any skill or not, his comment still stands. If he is an 80 year old man who walks with a cane, or a UFC champion posting anonymously, or whatever Chinese dude you legitimately think can move people with his qi without touching them, his comment still stands.

And he is correct. Sometimes people's legs break. Most of us have seen the well known video from a decade or so ago of it happening to a Thai boxer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ3jLoYkqBU

Now, did the people to whom it happens practice kung fu iron body? Probably not (most kf people do not enter Muay Thai/NHB competitions).

The question stands as to whether or not the bones still would have broken without conditioning. Maybe that person had some genetic weakness in their bone (of course, it probably wouldn't have been known had they not been a martial artist). Or maybe they overdid it to the point that no amount of conditioning could keep their leg from breaking. Both are valid. Both are unknown. And neither depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

But we do know that:

1) Wolff's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff%27s_law) is real
2) People who condition their shins can kick/block harder without pain and injury than people who don't

I mean, this is all legitimate science stuff. No qi silliness. We're talking about bone conditioning. There's no mysticism involved. It's not like blocking spears with your throat with qi type nonsense. And none of this depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

So it stands to reason that Iron Body is NOT, as Lee Chiang Po puts it, a "scam." At least the iron leg parts. The qigong spear throat stuff is.


It has to be the worst possible way to kick someone. Iron palm and iron body is such a scam. It would take you many hours a day, over years, to develop into what you would want.

Uh, kicking someone with your shin is effective, assuming your shin is conditioned.

It doesn't take hours a day but it does take a while. Months/years. Did you want something that works in a day? Sorry, the human body doesn't adapt that quickly.


And I would have to be skeptical even then.

Not sure why, since:


As a young man I used several methods to toughen my hands and to strengthen them so that they would hold their form on impact, but I did draw a line.

lol @ you saying it's a scam but you used to do it. Are you saying that you didn't get any results from your hand conditioning?

If I'm going to be kicking people, I'd prefer to have conditioned shins.

Feel free to kick stuff with unconditioned shins at your own risk.

[Bacon]

And he is correct. Sometimes people's legs break. Most of us have seen the well known video from a decade or so ago of it happening to a Thai boxer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ3jLoYkqBU

Now, did the people to whom it happens practice kung fu iron body? Probably not (most kf people do not enter Muay Thai/NHB competitions).

The question stands as to whether or not the bones still would have broken without conditioning. Maybe that person had some genetic weakness in their bone (of course, it probably wouldn't have been known had they not been a martial artist). Or maybe they overdid it to the point that no amount of conditioning could keep their leg from breaking. Both are valid. Both are unknown. And neither depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

Actually the reason they break is because the kick's angle was wrong. Picture hitting with a 2x4 on the small side so that both small sides are perfectly in line with the target. That's how the bones should be aligned for a kick. Now if you turn it at 45 degrees and swing it there's much more chance to break the board. It's all about the angle and alignment there.


But we do know that:

1) Wolff's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff%27s_law) is real
2) People who condition their shins can kick/block harder without pain and injury than people who don't

I mean, this is all legitimate science stuff. No qi silliness. We're talking about bone conditioning. There's no mysticism involved. It's not like blocking spears with your throat with qi type nonsense. And none of this depends on Lee Chiang Po actually having skills or posting videos.

So it stands to reason that Iron Body is NOT, as Lee Chiang Po puts it, a "scam." At least the iron leg parts. The qigong spear throat stuff is.
My real issue is with the way iron palm does it's conditioning which takes away from legitimate fight training where you can practice combative skills and condition at the same time. Muay Thai and mma conditions against the heavy bag, pads, and in sparring.

These people can take harder hits than 99% of iron practitioners not to mention the better level of fighting skill most of them have.

That's my issue with it.

Everything else you said bud... I have no issue with. And I definitely side with you on one specific thing. Dale whines like this whenever anyone questions the legitimacy of anything he practices andnthen pulls out the word slander clearly without knowing its meaning.

[Dale Dugas]

no, both of you mouthboxing nobodies have not gone back and seen all the silliness that this mouthboxing netghost has claimed in their/its posts.

Go do the research and reread his past posts where he talks about training skills that come out of the 72 shaolin arts book.

he/she/it made some bold claims and never has shown himself/herself/itself being able to deliver on these claims.

hence shut up and put up some proof via video on the web.

anything else is mouthboxing.

[Bacon]

no, both of you mouthboxing nobodies have not gone back and seen all the silliness that this mouthboxing netghost has claimed in their/its posts.
Slander! It's slander and libel I say! Slaaaaaaannnnddddeerrrrrrrrr!


Go do the research and reread his past posts where he talks about training skills that come out of the 72 shaolin arts book.

he/she/it made some bold claims and never has shown himself/herself/itself being able to deliver on these claims.

hence shut up and put up some proof via video on the web.

anything else is mouthboxing.

I agree people ahould be able to back up their claims but I have never seen you do the same. All I ever see is that whenever anyone questions anything you do on an empirical basis you scream slander like there's no tomorrow without even knowing what it means.

So by your own term you would be a "mouthboxer" as far as I'm concerned. Add to that you ignore any rational posts which contradict your own.

[IronFist]

no, both of you mouthboxing nobodies have not gone back and seen all the silliness that this mouthboxing netghost has claimed in their/its posts.

Go do the research and reread his past posts where he talks about training skills that come out of the 72 shaolin arts book.


Hold on. Did he say he had the skillz from the 72 Consummate Arts book? Cuz that book is a bunch of tomfoolery. I wrote more about it here:

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64320

It's basically like if kung fu movie training was actually real. Rub sand between your hands for years and then you can move people without touching them! Push a tree every day from the time it is a sapling and when it is fully grown you will still be able to bend it! Jump out of a 6 foot hole using just your calves! A bunch of other stuff like that that violates the laws of human adaptation.

I mean the general idea of TCMA conditioning is good (gradual improvement over time) but that book was a bunch of BS taken to the extreme.


he/she/it made some bold claims and never has shown himself/herself/itself being able to deliver on these claims.

I would definitely agree that the person making the claims needs to provide the proof.

Link to the thread where he claims to have 72 Consummate Arts powarz???

[Dale Dugas]

No,

He/She/It claims a lot of skills that seem to be very like the skills talked about in that work of fiction. Not that he/she/it said had the exact skills from that book.

talks a big game, but never has shown a video that he/she/it can do anything.

mouthboxing rather than being known as really able to that which is claimed.

[IronFist]

No,

He/She/It claims a lot of skills that seem to be very like the skills talked about in that work of fiction. Not that he/she/it said had the exact skills from that book.

edit - I misread your post at first. You're saying he claims to have crazy mystic skills?

Well yeah, I would like to see proof of his claims, then.

After all, the person making the claim is the person who needs to provide the proof.

[Bacon]

And Dale proves my point about ignoring reasoned posts which contradict him.

[mooyingmantis]

My real issue is with the way iron palm does it's conditioning which takes away from legitimate fight training where you can practice combative skills and condition at the same time. Muay Thai and mma conditions against the heavy bag, pads, and in sparring.

You assume too much.

The iron palm practitioners I know, myself included, practice combative skills and conditioning on heavy bags, pads and in sparring. On top of that we practice iron palm.

Apparently your beef is with people you have created in your mind. :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

Doesn't it take like 15 minutes or so per day to do iron palm? And that's including warmup, all the striking, massaging, jow, etc.

Seems reasonable enough.

Now if you're doing 30 minutes of qigong beforehand, then yeah I could see complaining that it takes too long.

[ginosifu]

Doesn't it take like 15 minutes or so per day to do iron palm? And that's including warmup, all the striking, massaging, jow, etc.

Seems reasonable enough.

Now if you're doing 30 minutes of qigong beforehand, then yeah I could see complaining that it takes too long.

Some lineages have a 5 minute warm up... (arms swings and applying jow... etc) and hen 15 -30 minutes of hitting with 5 minutes of cool down.

Some lineages hit once per day. Other hit 3 times per day with the above same time frames.

There are some lineages that do qigong (breathing exercises) before hand. There are some that do the breathing exercise while hitting.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

My real issue is with the way iron palm does it's conditioning which takes away from legitimate fight training where you can practice combative skills and condition at the same time. Muay Thai and mma conditions against the heavy bag, pads, and in sparring.

Why is that you think people who practice IP do not find time to spar, hit heavy bags, drill with partners etc?

All styles of body conditioning are practiced by every culture, ethnicity, style of MA. Each individual IP or IB practice is up to the person and what were taught or what they feel is best for them.

It sounds like you have a predjudice against CMA in general. That's like being predjudice to another ethnicity or culture. Predjudice comes from ignorance and fear of others. Until you go out and meet these people and find what they are about.... you will never know how good of a person they are. The same apllie with IP.... don't knock until you have gotten to know it better. Find someone to teach you and dwelve into it for a couple of years... then if you don't like it or it does not work for you then you can say it was not for you.

ginosifu

[Bacon]

You assume too much.

The iron palm practitioners I know, myself included, practice combative skills and conditioning on heavy bags, pads and in sparring. On top of that we practice iron palm.

Apparently your beef is with people you have created in your mind. :rolleyes:

Why is that you think people who practice IP do not find time to spar, hit heavy bags, drill with partners etc?

No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.

You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don't mean any folks who've cross trained.



It sounds like you have a predjudice against CMA in general. That's like being predjudice to another ethnicity or culture. Predjudice comes from ignorance and fear of others. Until you go out and meet these people and find what they are about.... you will never know how good of a person they are. The same apllie with IP.... don't knock until you have gotten to know it better. Find someone to teach you and dwelve into it for a couple of years... then if you don't like it or it does not work for you then you can say it was not for you.
no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim 'x' works when no practitioners of 'x' have ever won any competition of note.

I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.

There just isn't any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.

If you can bring empirical evidence or a slew of IP/IB practitioners who have been successful in high level full contact competition without cross training in things like boxing, muay Thai, bjj, kickboxing, wrestling, sanda, shuai jiao, etc.,which are clearly fairly successful by themselves, then I may recant my statements. But I don't think that will be forthcoming any time soon.

Or even any empirical studies done on IP/IB training.

Dale, if you can get a university to complete a satisfactory study on IP or IB and show that it actually has significantly greater effect over standard training methods which do the same thing I'll eat my words, buy your herbs, and start the IP/IB training.

[IronFist]

Some lineages have a 5 minute warm up... (arms swings and applying jow... etc) and hen 15 -30 minutes of hitting with 5 minutes of cool down.

Some lineages hit once per day. Other hit 3 times per day with the above same time frames.

There are some lineages that do qigong (breathing exercises) before hand. There are some that do the breathing exercise while hitting.

ginosifu

I think 15 minutes a day is a reasonable amount of time to spend on conditioning if it helps you.

It's not like anyone forces you to do the training, though.

Some people may argue 15 minutes of kettlebell training is a waste of time. I've even seen people say they spend 45 minutes on the first section of sil lim tao. That seems like a huge waste of time to me but to each their own.

For the ability to strike hard without damaging the hands in the process, I think 15 minutes a day is reasonable.

I don't do iron palm, just saying.

[IronFist]

No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.

I've done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.


You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don't mean any folks who've cross trained.

That doesn't make sense. IP and IB aren't fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training. Some people don't have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.

Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.

Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That's cool. To each his own.


no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim 'x' works when no practitioners of 'x' have ever won any competition of note.

A valid argument for martial arts styles.


I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.

Again, IP and IB aren't fighting styles.


There just isn't any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.

Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.

That's not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I'm only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.


If you can bring empirical evidence or a slew of IP/IB practitioners who have been successful in high level full contact competition without cross training in things like boxing, muay Thai, bjj, kickboxing, wrestling, sanda, shuai jiao, etc.,which are clearly fairly successful by themselves, then I may recant my statements. But I don't think that will be forthcoming any time soon.

IP/IB don't claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.

You can be very conditioned and still suck at fighting.

IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.

Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn't train against resisting opponents, etc., then it's probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.


Or even any empirical studies done on IP/IB training.

Wolff's law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I'm not talking about the other stuff).


Dale, if you can get a university to complete a satisfactory study on IP or IB and show that it actually has significantly greater effect over standard training methods which do the same thing I'll eat my words, buy your herbs, and start the IP/IB training.

Dude I support your cynicism and realism but I think you're going the wrong way here with your IP/IB argument.

IP and IB do condition the body. They don't make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that's all the claim to do.

It's like bench pressing. Does bench pressing a lot of weight make you an awesome fighter? No. But all else being equal, you will probably be a better fighter if you can bench more weight because you'll be able to generate more tension and be able to strike harder.

IP/IB are tools, not fighting styles. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do IB/IP who suck at fighting.

Back when I was doing IB I had pretty good conditioning but I sucked at fighting because I wasn't training against resisting opponents.

[YouKnowWho]

Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.

Are you saying that you cannot use your "palm edge" to strike on your opponent's head/face/ nose/neck in the ground game? I didn't know that restriction.

The palm edge striking is quite useful. It can do what a fist can't do for you. If you have artistic on your finger joints, the plam striking may be the only striking weapon that you have left through your old age.

[IronWeasel]

I've done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.



That doesn't make sense. IP and IB aren't fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training. Some people don't have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.

Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.

Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That's cool. To each his own.



A valid argument for martial arts styles.



Again, IP and IB aren't fighting styles.



Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.

That's not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I'm only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.



IP/IB don't claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.

You can be very conditioned and still suck at fighting.

IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.

Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn't train against resisting opponents, etc., then it's probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.



Wolff's law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I'm not talking about the other stuff).



Dude I support your cynicism and realism but I think you're going the wrong way here with your IP/IB argument.

IP and IB do condition the body. They don't make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that's all the claim to do.

It's like bench pressing. Does bench pressing a lot of weight make you an awesome fighter? No. But all else being equal, you will probably be a better fighter if you can bench more weight because you'll be able to generate more tension and be able to strike harder.

IP/IB are tools, not fighting styles. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do IB/IP who suck at fighting.

Back when I was doing IB I had pretty good conditioning but I sucked at fighting because I wasn't training against resisting opponents.




Props to you for taking the time to break this down for guys like Bacon.

[IronFist]

Are you saying that you cannot use your "palm edge" to strike on your opponent's head/face/ nose/neck in the ground game? I didn't know that restriction.

I don't see a lot of palm strikes in MMA. Usually it's fists. Sure there are some knife edges here and there and Sakuraba style claps to the head (I think it was him, I don't remember for sure).

99% of it is fist, though.


The palm edge striking is quite useful. It can do what a fist can't do for you. If you have artistic on your finger joints, the plam striking may be the only striking weapon that you have left through your old age.

I never said palm strikes weren't effective. I just said you don't see them very often in MMA.

Punching has a better range (approximately one palm length more range)

And I still maintain a closed fist is instinctive.

And with a clenched fist, more power can be generated through the process of irradiation(?) than with an open fist. This is where the TCMAists may talk about "soft fists" and punching while holding an egg in your hand without breaking it and other nonsense. More tension = more power. Period. "Tension" has nothing to do with speed, btw. Sorry, I'm trying to anticipate all of the responses that this is going to get, and I'm pretty sure "but too much tension makes you slow because your muscles work against each other" is going to be one of them. It's nonsense. No one has that problem because it's not even a physiological issue. It's just leftover from the whole "weights/muscles are bad" silliness from a few decades ago. It's an old belief that won't die. It's kind of like spot reduction in BBing. Some people still believe that situps will make your waist smaller.

The point is, if you are going to be doing palm striking, you will be able to withstand more damage if you do IP than if you don't.

If you are going to be getting hit in the shin, you'll be able to withstand more damage if you do iron shin training from IB, or something roughly equivalent like kicking a heavy bag, Muay Thai sparring, etc. This is all real and can be explained with science. No mysticism, no nonsense.

[Bacon]

I've done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.
Single case study isn't even close to empirical evidence. You either need peer reviewed empirical research or multiple case study examples as in mine of muay Thai and mma fighters not needing to do iron body or palm and still being better conditioned than the iron folks.




That doesn't make sense. IP and IB aren't fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training.

But that's the point. There are training methods which allow you to practice combative skills while getting the same or better conditioning and based on the evidence I'd bet on the latter.

As for them not being fighting styles I don't care. If they had any value over the methods being used they'd be picked up by every pro fighter in a heartbeat.


Some people don't have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.
And yet there are still better things for them to spend their time on like physical conditioning through weights, cardio, plyometrics, etc.


Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.
Look up pancrase. Only open handed strikes to the head and Bas Rutten never did any special conditioning like iron palm. Just bag work, pad work, and sparring.


Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That's cool. To each his own.
Then I rate that up with calligraphy as far as being a martial skill. I'm talking about martial arts and training to fight. Anything else is a waste of my time.


Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.
And I can do it just from sparring three times a week. I'm getting fight training and conditioning so efficiency wise I'm getting a better deal.


That's not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I'm only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.

IP/IB don't claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.
Again I'd like some empirical research, not single case studies of "I did it and it worked!" because that's absolutely worthless.


IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.
And again that would be a more time effective, and apparently based on the evidence at hand, more effective way of doing it.


Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn't train against resisting opponents, etc., then it's probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.
But again if they did what they claim to do well enough to be bothered with every pro fighter would jump on it. Conditioning is a part of fighting.



Wolff's law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I'm not talking about the other stuff).
Continually citing that as validation for iron conditioning is like saying you have a drug that worked in simulation but rather than doing clinical trials you're just going to start distribution.


IP and IB do condition the body. They don't make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that's all the claim to do.
And again I see no evidence that they can do what they claim to or do it significantly better than training methods currently in use by most fighters.

[Empty_Cup]

Good posts IF and Bacon. There's a lot of merit to what you're saying. I definitely agree that if somebody is only conditioning IB and not practicing actual fighting technique, they will be a worse fighter than somebody who is training to fight. But to IF's point, that's because IB is a form of conditioning to enhance the technique, not the technique itself.

Being a science guy, I'm with Bacon in that I'd love to see some empirical studies done in an actual IB regimen. I think we all would. However I don't see that happening any time soon. The closest thing we have is evidence of Wolff's law. So in the mean time for those looking for evidence, you'll have to find somebody who has conditioned for 5, 10, 20+ years and cross hands with them. Not to see if you can best them in a fight, but rather to see how it feels when you get blocked by them or they attack you. Report back here when you've done that.

[Dale Dugas]

My door is always open.

Come gear up and get hit.

[ginosifu]

No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.

You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don't mean any folks who've cross trained.


no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim 'x' works when no practitioners of 'x' have ever won any competition of note.

I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.

There just isn't any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.

#1. What if I have time to spar, hit the heavy bags etc and still have time to do other conditioning?

#2. I do not hold MMA and Muay Thai as the end all to beat all. They are not my standard to hold to. They are just Martial Sports... that's all.

#3. I have trained and fought in Shuai Chiao and San Shou and won! and I still had time to do other conditioning methods such as IP.

#4. There is no empirical evidence to show that push ups help Martial Arts but most all MA still do them.

Just because you do not like Ip or IB does not mean they do not work or a value for fighters. Goofballs like you, who ask stupid questions like these get to spar me in class. Now I don't kill or hurt anyone, but I will let feel a slap and they all shut up after that. Since you are not going to come to my school and challenge me... I will have to finish by saying.

Predjudice Meatheads like you that think that MMA / Muay Thai are the standard to hold all MA to are only hurting yourselves.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Supplementary training is just that, supplementary and should NOT take away from any direct combat work because it does NOT take the place of it.
That is like saying that weight training shouldn't be done because a fighter could be fighting training fighting which is directly more applicable.
IH and IB work is done by fighters on a regular basis, they just don't call it that.
Whenever a boxer trains to take a shot, it is IB work and everything a boxer hist the bag its IH work.
It just a TYPE of IB and IH work.
That TCMA use a specific type of SUPPLEMENTARY IH work that goes beyond the standard is something that is a matter of tradition for them.
Can a modern pro fighter get benefits from it? sure, but there is a time frame that MUST be applied to PRO fighters and where do they have the time to ADD an extra 30-45 min minimum? typically they don't.
They ALREADY get A LOT of fist conditioning, far more than the recreational MA.
A boxer doing 15 rounds on a HB, every day gets all the "IH" work he needs.

[IronFist]

Single case study isn't even close to empirical evidence. You either need peer reviewed empirical research or multiple case study examples as in mine of muay Thai and mma fighters not needing to do iron body or palm and still being better conditioned than the iron folks.

Why are you saying MMA guys are "better" conditioned? How do you know? Have you seen "peer reviewed empirical research"? Where is your "peer reviewed empirical research" that MMA conditioning "works"?

Body conditioning is body conditioning. If you don't think that spending some time doing kung fu style body conditioning is a good use of your time, then don't do it and get your body conditioning some other way. It's really all the same in the end.


But that's the point. There are training methods which allow you to practice combative skills while getting the same or better conditioning and based on the evidence I'd bet on the latter.

Cuz everyone is exactly the same and some people might not want/need supplementary conditioning :rolleyes:


As for them not being fighting styles I don't care. If they had any value over the methods being used they'd be picked up by every pro fighter in a heartbeat.

They're not fighting styles.

You're applying the wrong logic here.

Anyway, most MMA guys probably don't do kung fu style IB. They probably don't need to because, like you said, they get conditioning from their training already.

But if some dude practicing kung fu at home wants to do IB training, who cares? If he trains it correctly it will help him take strikes better. He probably doesn't have an MMA partner to train with and get his conditioning that way.


And yet there are still better things for them to spend their time on like physical conditioning through weights, cardio, plyometrics, etc.

Those things do not allow you to block kicks with your shins without pain. They have different goals. But yeah, those things are important for a fighter, too.


Look up pancrase. Only open handed strikes to the head and Bas Rutten never did any special conditioning like iron palm. Just bag work, pad work, and sparring.

Ok. I said "most MMA events". Listing one that uses open hand strikes doesn't disprove anything.


Then I rate that up with calligraphy as far as being a martial skill. I'm talking about martial arts and training to fight. Anything else is a waste of my time.

Then don't do it. It's not like anyone is forcing you to.


And I can do it just from sparring three times a week. I'm getting fight training and conditioning so efficiency wise I'm getting a better deal.

Then train that way. Who cares dude?


Again I'd like some empirical research, not single case studies of "I did it and it worked!" because that's absolutely worthless.

What part are you disagreeing with? That bones get denser through impact? Or that repetitive striking increases one's tolerance to pain?


But again if they did what they claim to do well enough to be bothered with every pro fighter would jump on it. Conditioning is a part of fighting.

Holy cow you are dense. IB/IP conditioning is supplemental. It's not a fighting style. If you don't think you are lacking in the ability to strike with an open hand or take shots without damage, then you don't need to do them. No one said IB/IP makes you a super unbeatable mega ninja fighter. They just cause your body to adapt in a certain way, like anything else.


And again I see no evidence that they can do what they claim to or do it significantly better than training methods currently in use by most fighters.

No one is claiming that's the case.

It's never been anything more than supplementary conditioning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

DO you guys remember that chinese youtube video where the iron arm guy was smashing his arm against the CORNER of a brick wall?
Remember the x-rays they took of his arm that showed considerable thickness of the forearm bone?

[Empty_Cup]

DO you guys remember that chinese youtube video where the iron arm guy was smashing his arm against the CORNER of a brick wall?
Remember the x-rays they took of his arm that showed considerable thickness of the forearm bone?

I never saw those but I think that would be the way to go...looking at x-rays. That would match up with the current theory of Wolff's law and the benefit from IB.

It would be very hard to quantify what allows you to endure strikes with less pain so an objective "increases bone density by X%" statement would most likely be the best you could get.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never saw those but I think that would be the way to go...looking at x-rays. That would match up with the current theory of Wolff's law and the benefit from IB.

It would be very hard to quantify what allows you to endure strikes with less pain so an objective "increases bone density by X%" statement would most likely be the best you could get.

Before I started IP years ago, I had my finger dislocated and since I put it back myself, I went to the docs to make sure it was "fitting ok" and he ordered a x-ray and it was fine.
About 3 or 4 years after I started IP I asked to get a x-ray of that hand again, to compare the bone density ( I told the doc that I wanted to do that because I had been feeling some "stiffness and pain" in my hand ;) ), I saw the x-ray with the technician and asked him if he noticed any difference comparing one x-ray with the other and he said that the finger in question was just fine, a bit "denser" around the joint but that was to be expected. I asked about the bones of the rest of the hand and he said that all seemed normal.
I asked if he noticed any density difference in the bones comparing x-rays and he said there was some difference but nothing I should be worried about.
I didn't wanna press it because I didn't want them to know the real reason behind the x-ray, but I am curious as to what it would look like now.

[Empty_Cup]

Before I started IP years ago, I had my finger dislocated and since I put it back myself, I went to the docs to make sure it was "fitting ok" and he ordered a x-ray and it was fine.
About 3 or 4 years after I started IP I asked to get a x-ray of that hand again, to compare the bone density ( I told the doc that I wanted to do that because I had been feeling some "stiffness and pain" in my hand ;) ), I saw the x-ray with the technician and asked him if he noticed any difference comparing one x-ray with the other and he said that the finger in question was just fine, a bit "denser" around the joint but that was to be expected. I asked about the bones of the rest of the hand and he said that all seemed normal.
I asked if he noticed any density difference in the bones comparing x-rays and he said there was some difference but nothing I should be worried about.
I didn't wanna press it because I didn't want them to know the real reason behind the x-ray, but I am curious as to what it would look like now.

Oh boy...no wonder our health care system is out of control :rolleyes::D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh boy...no wonder our health care system is out of control :rolleyes::D

Be nice, LOL !!

[David Jamieson]

Iron Body is a term for conditioning.

That conditioning follows a regimen. It is inclusive of a few different exercises and some massage and some impact work and a few other things.

I would say that it is achieved in other ways as far as fighting goes.

For instance, medicine ball drops on a boxers torso is very similar. The hand soaking, the fist push ups, the tense ups and body shots etc etc.

These all condition a regular boxer in a similar process to that which is found in Iron Body.

Iron body has physical exercises, qigong and percussive striking to the body.

I think people might get tripped up by the cultural references more than they will the exercise. It is a conditioning regime. If you think it's a magic trick, then you fail at the onset of trying to discuss these things.

I don't see the difference between percussive work in any martial art when it comes to body conditioning. Iron body is the same thing. Iron Palm too. It's not rocket surgery. lol it is slow progressive conditioning of the body to aid in recovery from force and to generally toughen the person who practices. It is an aid to training and not fighting. Same as weight lifting is an aid to building strength to fight, but weightlifting itself will not make you a better fighter.

I think most people just struggle with the cultural frame of reference and have intellectual difficulty understanding how parallel discovery can occur seeing as we all have the same body form etc.

The Chinese tend to be more poetic about it in that respect. It's good and valid though.

[Lucas]

I think most people just struggle with the cultural frame of reference

I also think a lot of 'modern' martial artists would be suprised at how similar conditioning they currently do is to that of chinese body conditioning methods.

it's willful ignorance most of the time. :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

Iron Body is a term for conditioning.

One of my students got into a fight and was cut by knife badly. He lost faith in my system. He went to learn "iron vest" which he believed he would never be cut by knife again.

To somebody, iron body is more than just conditioning. It's a bulletproof vest.

[Dale Dugas]

Iron Vest does not make your body able to withstand knives.

Anyone who thinks that is not using their brain.

It does help you take more abuse than normal untrained people.

It is not magic.

It is hard work to train the fascia and tissues of the body in order to take abuse.

[ginosifu]

One of my students got into a fight and was cut by knife badly. He lost faith in my system. He went to learn "iron vest" which he believed he would never be cut by knife again.

To somebody, iron body is more than just conditioning. It's a bulletproof vest.

The boxer rebellion of 1901 proved that Iron Body does not work against metal (bullets fired from guns). You can make your body tougher thru proper exercises, but knives you must follow Mr. Miyagi (No be dare).

ginosifu

[Yoshiyahu]

What is Iron Body, How do you develop it in wing chun or any other fighting systems you tried out...

In my lineage we basically use dit da jow and lots of hard hitting sparring to the body.

there are other methods we neglected....Like trading punches & kicks and drop fall techniques. In boxing they use a medicine ball that you practice having dropped on you. Some Muay Thai guys use a small wood beam an drop it on their chin to make their chin more conditioned over time.

What do you do?



AS for chi kung. I dont believe chi gung alone will make you super conditioned or super strong..chi gung is basically to heal you and increase blood circulation for the abuse your body endures an to speed up recover for muscle break down and tissue injuries. Basically Chi Gung heals your muscles, tissue, ligaments and skin....The more you use your hand it gets callous the same with other things you do to body....chi gung and dit da jow are for healing and recovery!

[Yoshiyahu]

Iron Palm and Fist allows you to strike harder areas of the body with more force ie the head.

If a child who never punched anything hit a punching bag full force he would hurt his hands, knuckles and wrist. But a man who has never done any conditioning would also feel the same pain as that child. By hitting a heavy bag or wall bag or makiwara you build power and conditioning. Boxers use medicine balls to conditioned their stomachs for heavy blows. Professionals also do 1000 sit ups daily to tighten those muslces to advoid internal damage...a strong enough boxer can break ribs or cause internal bleeding like a bruise kidney even with gloves on. I work with a guy who did Muay thai who actually got kicked very hard in a bout an had to go to hospital. His abdomen wasnt conditioned enough to take that blow.

Some bareknuckle fighters soaked their hand in various chemicals to make their fist harder...But they also hit a punching bag for conditioning.

Iron skills should be as much apart of conditioning as cardio, timing, strength, speed, and cooridation....

Basically Iron Palm/Fist is making your hands tougher and stronger to release and take greater impact!

[imperialtaichi]

Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma

[Dale Dugas]

You need to strengthen the fascia and over time it will thicken and then you can activate it and learn to accept the force coming through your body and dissolve it into the ground.

beating yourself with objects is not iron body training but Pai Da Gung which is a component of Iron Body training.

You need to train the internal(fascia) and the external(dermal tissue) to accept more abuse.

[Bacon]

Okay now I know some of my threads concerning iron training methods have disagreed with certain folks in the past. I'm posting this thread purely for the purposes of learning what folks on here do as part of their training. Though there may be questions by myself regarding the why and the how I think the critique of "does iron palm work" has been done to death.

So for those of you who practice or teach iron palm I have a few questions for you:

1. What regimen do you start your new students with?
2. Once they've achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to?
3. Approximately how long does #1 usually take
4. What are the next levels you progress them to?
5. Are there any supplementary exercises you usually get the. To do besides hitting the canvas bags (grip exercises, forearm strengthening etc.)?
6. Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
7. Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?

Again I will query as to why and how but I will not critique.

[Hanak]

My friend practice this form of kung fu, and he is nice and far in it.

What he tells me is, you need to implement CHAN,QI QONG and your KUNG FU in it.
To master it!

I guess he's right about it!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't teach IH training to anyone,most people don't have the dedication or, to be honest, even need that type of training.
For the vast majority, the conditioning they get from hitting the bag is enough.
For those that want to learn it I insist on them being able to fight well/effectively first.
I have found that some end up relying "too much" on their IH and their fighting skills get downgraded.

[Dale Dugas]

You train twice a day for the first year.

You than train daily for another year.

after that you train whenever you want.


I train my hands 2-3 days a week.

This for basic Iron Palm, most people NEVER get through this and give up before they are finished.

Sad but true.

I have rarely taught the advanced levels where you switch from hard contact to focusing it down and abbreviating the movement but still allowing for maximum power generation through the structure.

I have the softest hands around but people have seen me break concrete, coconuts etc. I can make them hard at anytime. The liniments are to protect you from seriously injuring yourself. I have no issues with my hands and I needle people all day with very thin needles.

Many people who train their hands without medicine have serious arthritis and other joint issues.

[xinyidizi]

I first started with hitting a mung bean bag and changed it to iron after a few weeks. There is also a neigong ritual before and after hitting the bag.

There is a pleasant feeling in my hands when I apply the yao jiu but I haven't tried it without the yaojiu to know the difference.

[Dale Dugas]

always use the Liniment.

Injuries and health issues are negated with the use of liniment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to Jow:
Honestly, until you have used the good stuff, you really have no idea how well that **** works !

[Dale Dugas]

I make some of the strongest unwatered down dit da jow out there. Beware those who are not licensed acupuncturists/herbalists.

I am having a Falling Ahead sale. All you have to do is type in Fall Ahead in the coupon code box at checkout and you will save 10% off your entire order. Good until Xmas.

Sanjuro Ronin and many others here and on other boards can attest to my liniments and their efficacy.

www.coilingdragon.com to order.

[PlumDragon]

1. What regimen do you start your new students with?
Slapping the bag with 3-4 different hand formations. Repetitions and rate of progression are not fixed but depend on the person. I start my students on gravel. I teach the qigong routines but stress that I feel the qigong is the least important part of the training.


2. Once they've achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to?
Steel shot bag after a couple months on gravel, initially lightly, and then with some power so that the student can learn the power generation. Its at this point I start working with methods of slapping concrete if the student wants to get into breaking.


3. Approximately how long does #1 usually take
#1 takes very little time; 3 months maximum.


4. What are the next levels you progress them to?
There are a variety of other types of training ranging from benign to IMO, dangerous, most of which are a bit more in depth to explain. Wall bags, open medium, gripping, tension drills, etc etc...Most of this has to do with creativity, and anyone can come up with a new spin on training that is useful since its not been done previously.


5. Are there any supplementary exercises you usually get the. To do besides hitting the canvas bags (grip exercises, forearm strengthening etc.)?
To be clear: Iron palm IS one of the supplementary exercises, along with all that stuff you mentioned--None of it has anything to do with fighting--its just conditioning. Just because you break stuff or hit hard or have a strong grip or whatever doesnt mean you can apply it under pressure, and it certainly doesnt mean you know the first thing about fighting. Its just supplementary work.


6. Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
The short answer: YES! Anyone who has experimented on a steel shot bag with and without jow knows this.
The more thorough answer is, it really depends on what youre doing: If youre just dropping your hand lightly on a rice bag, I really dont think its necessary although it would still be helpful. However, if youre really wanting to push yourself and get the most out of the training, then jow is a no-brainer and a very important necessity for the health of your hands.

7. Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?
Yes, I practice breaking, although its been nearly a year since Ive really broke anything. Only reason why is that I enjoy breaking, its a nice feeling to successfully make a difficult break, because it really does require a lot of conditioning and power to be able to do some breaks. With that said, it really doesnt have anything to do with fighting.

For me, iron palm is just something I do to bide my time when I dont have a training partner. As Ive said before, the best fighters Ive ever met have done *NO* conditioning work at all, save for what they get from actually training under pressure. No bag strikes, no shin conditioning, etc etc. They just worked on fighting so thats what they got good at...

[Kevin73]

Here's a dumb question. Doing it twice a day and using the Dit Da Jow on your hands. If I do it in the morning before work and then put on the Jow, how long before I can wash my hands?

I always smell like I just drank when I'm done and spilled it all over myself. Anyone else have this problem?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's a dumb question. Doing it twice a day and using the Dit Da Jow on your hands. If I do it in the morning before work and then put on the Jow, how long before I can wash my hands?

I always smell like I just drank when I'm done and spilled it all over myself. Anyone else have this problem?

I would keep it on for 20-30 min.

[Dale Dugas]

20 minutes is decent and the medicine has been absorbed and you can wash the residue off your hands.

Though many of the formulas I sell do not smell all that bad.

People smell like Chinese or Indian food.

[xinyidizi]

Here's a dumb question. Doing it twice a day and using the Dit Da Jow on your hands. If I do it in the morning before work and then put on the Jow, how long before I can wash my hands?

I always smell like I just drank when I'm done and spilled it all over myself. Anyone else have this problem?

My teacher told me for one hour and he also told me that I shouldn't wash my hands with cold water for a few hours.

[Dale Dugas]

Old wives tales about the hour long waiting period. 20 minutes is enough if you need to wash it off. I leave it on all day and training short little sets throughout the day when Im at my clinic as I have a bag in the clinic.

Never wash with cold as it will shock your body. Always wash off liniment with warm or hot water.

[Empty_Cup]

Never wash with cold as it will shock your body. Always wash off liniment with warm or hot water.

I can understand how cold water would inhibit circulation and blood flow to the area. From a pure absorption standpoint, however, warm/ hot water will leach the medicine more so than cold water

[Dale Dugas]

If you want to warm up your hands in the winter time or if you have absorption issues you can warm them in hot water for 5 minutes and the apply your medicine.

The poster was asking about washing the liniment off, not about absorption issues. Hence my telling them that cold water is not the way to go.

[Empty_Cup]

If you want to warm up your hands in the winter time or if you have absorption issues you can warm them in hot water for 5 minutes and the apply your medicine.

The poster was asking about washing the liniment off, not about absorption issues. Hence my telling them that cold water is not the way to go.

I agree. I think the way I quoted you earlier was confusing so my mistake.

[IronFist]

Cold water has its uses. Google "cold water dousing." Basically you dump a bucket of cold water on your head after you take a shower.

No idea if all the health benefits attributed to it are legit, but it definitely wakes you up. That shock is exactly what people want. There's some potentially voodoo science behind it, but it will definitely wake you up.

Start with room temperature water and progress to colder water over a period of weeks if you're gonna do it.

Don't do it if you have heart problems.

But yeah, I wouldn't use cold water to wash jow off.

There's also something similar called a "James Bond shower."

[IronFist]

Oh, according to western science, heat is pro-inflammatory, so you probably don't want to soak your hands in hot water after training. I know it sounds like a good idea, to increase the blood flow, but it will also increase inflammation which will lead to damage and incomplete healing over time.

Icing for less than 20 minutes is anti-inflammatory.

I'd probably just stick with the jow, though.

I did see a website in the late 90s that recommended holding your hands under hot running water for a few minutes after training iron palm instead of using jow. That sounds like a bad idea.

But heat before a workout is fine, especially if you are "cold," which can lead to injuries.

I'm just mentioning this in case someone goes "I don't have any jow, jow increases blood flow, hot water increases blood flow, therefore I will just use hot water and skip the jow."

[IronFist]

Hey is Wing Lam's jow pretty weaksauce? I used it every day for years and never noticed a difference in bruise healing time vs. not using jow.

This was 13 or 14 years ago if that matters.

[Empty_Cup]

...

There's also something similar called a "James Bond shower."

"The Man with the Golden Shower"...:eek:

Coming to theaters near you...

[Dale Dugas]

Hey is Wing Lam's jow pretty weaksauce? I used it every day for years and never noticed a difference in bruise healing time vs. not using jow.

This was 13 or 14 years ago if that matters.

His regular jow is watered down, he also sells something he calls triple strength which is the regular strength jow to most of us.

Hence I make mine strong and you will notice the difference in a few days.

[xinyidizi]

Oh, according to western science, heat is pro-inflammatory, so you probably don't want to soak your hands in hot water after training. I know it sounds like a good idea, to increase the blood flow, but it will also increase inflammation which will lead to damage and incomplete healing over time.

Icing for less than 20 minutes is anti-inflammatory.

I'd probably just stick with the jow, though.

I did see a website in the late 90s that recommended holding your hands under hot running water for a few minutes after training iron palm instead of using jow. That sounds like a bad idea.

But heat before a workout is fine, especially if you are "cold," which can lead to injuries.

I'm just mentioning this in case someone goes "I don't have any jow, jow increases blood flow, hot water increases blood flow, therefore I will just use hot water and skip the jow."

Icing is mostly used for the injuries in bigger muscles which have a big blood supply. However in Iron palm icing is more likely to cause damage to the tendons and the ligaments which don't have a good blood circulation to begin with. A little bit of inflammation is actually a part of the healing process in our bodies and a better blood flow can speed up the healing as well as making the structure stronger. Icing on the other hand interrupts this natural process and I think shouldn't be used for that area after a normal iron palm routine.

[IronFist]

Icing is mostly used for the injuries in bigger muscles which have a big blood supply. However in Iron palm icing is more likely to cause damage to the tendons and the ligaments which don't have a good blood circulation to begin with. A little bit of inflammation is actually a part of the healing process in our bodies and a better blood flow can speed up the healing as well as making the structure stronger. Icing on the other hand interrupts this natural process and I think shouldn't be used for that area after a normal iron palm routine.

I've heard of ice dipping being used to treat wrist and finger tendonitis from guitar playing.

Ice dipping is taking a bowl of almost freezing water, dipping your hand (or elbow, or whatever body part) in it for 10 seconds and then removing it. This is repeated 10 times over 2 hours (so every 12 and a half minutes).

I don't think heat or ice should be used after iron palm, though. I mean if you get to the point where you're having that sort of injury, you're probably doing iron palm wrong, anyway.

You're right that inflammation is part of the healing process, but when it gets out of control it leads to long term injury.

I used to always use a heating pad on injuries. What a huge mistake lol. But it feels good in the short term so you think hey, it's doing good!

I've heard heating is ok as long as you finish with ice.

[IronFist]

His regular jow is watered down, he also sells something he calls triple strength which is the regular strength jow to most of us.

Hence I make mine strong and you will notice the difference in a few days.

I think I still have a bottle of his jow from 12 years ago that is unopened. It still has some herbs sitting at the bottom. Would it be super strong by now?

I wasn't saving it or anything, I just stopped training in a way that required jow and happened to have a bottle left over, which I forgot about, and then found the other day. It was in the basement so it's been in a cool, dark place the entire time.

His jow is in plastic bottles. I've heard that's bad because stuff can be leached from the plastic or whatever. Any truth to that?

[Dale Dugas]

Depends on the quality of the plastic.

Many liquors are stored in plastic these days.

Though if its that old its probably full of BPA, so I would discard it.

[ginosifu]

1. What regimen do you start your new students with?
Slapping the bag with 3-4 different hand formations. Repetitions and rate of progression are not fixed but depend on the person. I start my students on gravel. I teach the qigong routines but stress that I feel the qigong is the least important part of the training.


2. Once they've achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to?
Steel shot bag after a couple months on gravel, initially lightly, and then with some power so that the student can learn the power generation. Its at this point I start working with methods of slapping concrete if the student wants to get into breaking.


3. Approximately how long does #1 usually take
#1 takes very little time; 3 months maximum.


4. What are the next levels you progress them to?
There are a variety of other types of training ranging from benign to IMO, dangerous, most of which are a bit more in depth to explain. Wall bags, open medium, gripping, tension drills, etc etc...Most of this has to do with creativity, and anyone can come up with a new spin on training that is useful since its not been done previously.


5. Are there any supplementary exercises you usually get the. To do besides hitting the canvas bags (grip exercises, forearm strengthening etc.)?
To be clear: Iron palm IS one of the supplementary exercises, along with all that stuff you mentioned--None of it has anything to do with fighting--its just conditioning. Just because you break stuff or hit hard or have a strong grip or whatever doesnt mean you can apply it under pressure, and it certainly doesnt mean you know the first thing about fighting. Its just supplementary work.


6. Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
The short answer: YES! Anyone who has experimented on a steel shot bag with and without jow knows this.
The more thorough answer is, it really depends on what youre doing: If youre just dropping your hand lightly on a rice bag, I really dont think its necessary although it would still be helpful. However, if youre really wanting to push yourself and get the most out of the training, then jow is a no-brainer and a very important necessity for the health of your hands.

7. Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?
Yes, I practice breaking, although its been nearly a year since Ive really broke anything. Only reason why is that I enjoy breaking, its a nice feeling to successfully make a difficult break, because it really does require a lot of conditioning and power to be able to do some breaks. With that said, it really doesnt have anything to do with fighting.

For me, iron palm is just something I do to bide my time when I dont have a training partner. As Ive said before, the best fighters Ive ever met have done *NO* conditioning work at all, save for what they get from actually training under pressure. No bag strikes, no shin conditioning, etc etc. They just worked on fighting so thats what they got good at...

1: What regimen do you start your new students with?

Everyone from beginner to adavnced starts off with Mung Bean. Mung Bean can last anywhere from 3 months to a year depending on how much hitting you are doing (1 time per day vs 3 times per day). Also Mung Beans are hit everyday as a warm up to Gravel and Steel Shot. For advanced student Mung Beans are hit for 2-3 minutes for warming up.

There is a Qi Gong Program I use. Beginners start off with breathing in and out of the nose. Moving onto more in depth Qi Gong as they progress in their IP.

2: Once they've achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to? How long does each level take?

Mung Bean for up to year. Then moving onto to Gravel for 1-2 more years. Then Steel Shot.

3: Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?

Jow is very imortant thruought your Iron Palm training. For beginners; Jow heals bruises, improves bloodflow. For intermediate; Jow thickens skin, muscle, ligaments and tendons. For advanced students; Jow improves blood, Qi and energy to the hands.

4: Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?

No I do Not practice breaking. I have in the past broke some 2" cinder blocks but never really focused on it. However, it is a good way to incease your skill at delivering a IP slap with correct structure and power.

In the end... IP for me is a long term conditioning method that goes along with your training. As you progress in your chosen Martial Art, your Iron Palm progresses as well. There are no short cuts in IP, only slow consistant progression. Although many of us have different methods.... none are right or wrong, just different means to the same end.

ginosifu

[ngokfei]

Are there pre-set testing standards to mark completion of each level of training IP?

example: Breaking Materials, how they progressively change in density and or purpose.

[GoldenBrain]

Are there pre-set testing standards to mark completion of each level of training IP?

example: Breaking Materials, how they progressively change in density and or purpose.



Not really, at least with regards to testing. The thing is, it's a personal method of conditioning ones hands to be able to deliver hard strikes without suffering damage. The idea behind this skill, other to create heavy hands and hard strikes, is to be able to focus the strike in order to deliver damage to internal organs. It's not a style or system but rather a skill learned using mostly set training methods that vary slightly from school to school. Iron Body is the same type of training and to my knowledge there's not a test for it either. You just do the training.

I personally know of three different ways to train Iron Palm and there isn't a test for any of them. One is the bucket of sand mixed with Dit Da Jow method where you stand in horse stance facing the bucket. Each set consists of three movements. Heaven - palms up, push into sand; Earth - palms down, push into sand; Tiger - take handful of sand, trying to squeeze sand out of hands, slowly turn palms up. Second is the more well known method where you strike an IP bag filled with mung beans for a few months to a year, then river pebbles or gravel for a few months to a year, then steel shot after warming up with mung beans. Third is not well known, but is actually my favorite, where you kneel in a warriors posture with a board on each side on the ground next to you. On the board is attached a large natural sponge. You practice by striking straight down at the board through the sponge using various animal hand postures while keeping your gaze straight ahead. With each method you should use Dit Da Jow before during and after the training. You can do it without the Jow but you should be very careful, go slow, and give yourself more time to heal between training sessions and be sure to massage the hands very well to keep the blood flowing. Also, in the beginning stages of IP training you are supposed to practice a strict diet and do without sexual release for 100 days. Some methods are only 6 weeks of this abstinence. There are other rules to the training but that's basically it in a nutshell.

I don't practice breaking so maybe one of the other Iron Palm practitioners out there can weigh in on that part of the training.

[IronWeasel]

Are there pre-set testing standards to mark completion of each level of training IP?

example: Breaking Materials, how they progressively change in density and or purpose.

..........



yes

[GoldenBrain]

..........



yes



I get the reason for the short answer, it's sort of amusing, but to help those who don't have testing requirements in Iron Palm understand please share. What kind of testing is involved in your IP training? Thanks in advance!

BTW, I'm not trying to pick or open the conversation up for smarmy (new favorite word I learned from DJ :D) remarks. I'm just curious.

[IronWeasel]

I get the reason for the short answer, it's sort of amusing, but to help those who don't have testing requirements in Iron Palm understand please share. What kind of testing is involved in your IP training? Thanks in advance!

BTW, I'm not trying to pick or open the conversation up for smarmy (new favorite word I learned from DJ :D) remarks. I'm just curious.


Well...

The Cliffs Notes' version is:

Medicine.

Get proper IP medicine from a reliable source.
Brew your medicine and bring in a sample after soaking for 12 weeks for inspection.


Training advancement.

The use of mung beans or other materials that are softer than lead or steel, should only last a month or three. These materials serve to callous the surface of the hands and to strengthen soft tissues. both processes happen fairly quickly, and very little bone changes will occur with the striking of these materials.
If you have strong hands, work as a laborer or do hvy bag work, you may opt to skip this stage of training.



Steel shot.

Easier on the hand than lead shot. It's best to begin the iron palm striking using this material. Once you have been striking for a few weeks, the teacher will observe your regimen for review and critique.


Continue daily regimen for two years.


After two years your training is considered complete at that level. You will be expected to break (without spacers) multiple 2" blocks in accordance with your rank and time in the school. Usually 4" is the minimum, and easily attainable with or without hand conditioning. I believe the old rank chart was (minimum number of blocks):

4" green belt
6" brown belt
8" black belt

so...all of this was the first level of hand training. The exercises, details, breathing, etc has been omitted for brevity.





After that:

Level 2: Continue daily striking using lead shot. Lead does not 'give' as much as steel, therefore has more of a direct effect on the bone. Ie...more damage. Bad for you unless you have already had some training.

Number of blocks?

10" no spacers
up to 16" no spacers. (Only two people have done 16" that I know of)




Level 3: Poison hand.

If you are ready for this, then you probably already know the herbs and protocol. Or who to get them from.

[GoldenBrain]

Excellent, thanks IronWeasel! I have another question, if you don't mind. Does your style require these levels of Iron Palm to advance to each belt level, or are these ranks in Iron Palm as it's own style?

Sorry for bugging you with these questions. The system I study is a mix of a bunch of styles including some outside of CMA, with the core being Southern 5 Animal Sil Lum. Since it's my only experience with CMA I find myself learning a lot on this forum about how others do things, especially in regards to ranking and various curriculums.

[IronWeasel]

Excellent, thanks IronWeasel! I have another question, if you don't mind. Does your style require these levels of Iron Palm to advance to each belt level, or are these ranks in Iron Palm as it's own style?

Sorry for bugging you with these questions. The system I study is a mix of a bunch of styles including some outside of CMA, with the core being Southern 5 Animal Sil Lum. Since it's my only experience with CMA I find myself learning a lot on this forum about how others do things, especially in regards to ranking and various curriculums.



Well, Ip isn't a style, it's a form of conditioning.

Iron Palm *OR* Iron Body is required for black sash. Choose one.

A third of the student body have done both.

[Raipizo]

Well, Ip isn't a style, it's a form of conditioning.

Iron Palm *OR* Iron Body is required for black sash. Choose one.

A third of the student body have done both.

The only problem I had is that it seems to take up so much time doing both for me. I was following the wing lam method, from the DVD I think I'm going to pick Iron body back up and omit the body exercises and stick to the hitting portion as that's the part that seems to actually induce the conditioning. With both on top of regular exercise it really takes up too much time.

[GoldenBrain]

Well, Ip isn't a style, it's a form of conditioning.

Iron Palm *OR* Iron Body is required for black sash. Choose one.

A third of the student body have done both.

Cool. I'm on the same page with you about it being a form of conditioning rather than a style. I thought that was how you viewed it, but I just wanted to be sure I understood. I like how it's a requirement to advance. Both IP and IB are part of our system with IB being part of the core conditioning program and IP being optional. Neither are formally part of the belt tests but instead students are assessed and coached on either or both as they progress.

[YouKnowWho]

yes

Do you belong to Gene Chicoine's line?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM2YYKSy7io&feature=youtu.be

[IronWeasel]

Do you belong to Gene Chicoine's line?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM2YYKSy7io&feature=youtu.be




Yep, that's us.

:)

[IronWeasel]

The only problem I had is that it seems to take up so much time doing both for me. I was following the wing lam method, from the DVD I think I'm going to pick Iron body back up and omit the body exercises and stick to the hitting portion as that's the part that seems to actually induce the conditioning. With both on top of regular exercise it really takes up too much time.



I have always wanted to do the Body, but it's a huge time commitment.

With a career and teenagers....it will stay on my list of future endeavors for a little longer.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

Yep, that's us.

:)

Please say hello to Gene for me if you have a chance. :)

[ngokfei]

Thank you Iron Weasel for a direct concise answer.

The indirect method I follow started out with the mung bean sack until the contents were pulverized (took just under 3 months) and I had to repeat it two more times.

the next stage was filling the bag with Pumice mixed with Coal, slightly denser then the beans but easier then the following stage which is the River Rocks.

I used to do the Direct method that started with a pot of mung beans which was okay but when I progressed to the sand I found I was calousing too much and my sensitivity when drawing/carving or playing my instrument was being affected so I stopped.

For execution exercises I tend to favor Boards. Palm slap I did 3 one inch boards, 5 if I used the cutting palm. finger tips only 1. Concrete Patio Slab I used to be able to do 2 1" but recently.


In the progress method do you also have requirements/testing to demonstrate how to project the energy through soft tissue to shock/damage internal organs.

Some I've seen are:

the thick folded towel over the brick/slab

Selective breaks ie: 3 slabs break the bottom one

one i've heard of but not seen is the submersion of the object under some water.

[IronWeasel]

Please say hello to Gene for me if you have a chance. :)


I certainly will.

I took two weeks off of class for surgery (SC class)...:mad:

So, I will see him next week.

[IronWeasel]

Thank you Iron Weasel for a direct concise answer.

The indirect method I follow started out with the mung bean sack until the contents were pulverized (took just under 3 months) and I had to repeat it two more times.

the next stage was filling the bag with Pumice mixed with Coal, slightly denser then the beans but easier then the following stage which is the River Rocks.

I used to do the Direct method that started with a pot of mung beans which was okay but when I progressed to the sand I found I was calousing too much and my sensitivity when drawing/carving or playing my instrument was being affected so I stopped.

For execution exercises I tend to favor Boards. Palm slap I did 3 one inch boards, 5 if I used the cutting palm. finger tips only 1. Concrete Patio Slab I used to be able to do 2 1" but recently.


In the progress method do you also have requirements/testing to demonstrate how to project the energy through soft tissue to shock/damage internal organs.

Some I've seen are:

the thick folded towel over the brick/slab

Selective breaks ie: 3 slabs break the bottom one

one i've heard of but not seen is the submersion of the object under some water.



Blocks are favored over boards because there is a lot of variation from board to board, and age and moisture can be determining factors.

We try to use the same supplier to ensure consistency between students/classes/blocks.

People showing off IP 'skills' using ONE block is ridiculous. My youngest daughter can, and has broken ONE block, without hand training.


Pillows, towels and phonebooks do NOT mimic soft tissue barriers. They cushion the blunt trauma to the (untrained) hand, so that you can hit harder without injury. That is one of the points of training IP in the first place.


I don't notice the sting as much, but I haven't lost any tactile sensitivity because of my hand training. I work in the medical field, and sometimes I need to palpate a patients' vein for a venipuncture, and I haven't noticed any difference.

But, then, our method of training doesn't disfigure like other 'shortcut' methods tend to.

[Raipizo]

I have always wanted to do the Body, but it's a huge time commitment.

With a career and teenagers....it will stay on my list of future endeavors for a little longer.

:)

I only ever did leg and arm. But the striking itself doesn't really take much time. Adding stomach and back etc would obviously add more time but i think the more important ones are the arm and leg anyway.

[IronWeasel]

I only ever did leg and arm. But the striking itself doesn't really take much time. Adding stomach and back etc would obviously add more time but i think the more important ones are the arm and leg anyway.


You might be misunderstanding our training method. This was a long thread several months ago.

Our training engages the muscle and facia/connective tissue, to stress/stimulate it into growth and resilience.

It's a long series of repetitive movements and postures. THOSE consume the training time.

The body striking comes at the very end and is miminal, timewise.

We all do some supplemental body striking drills, but those aren't a formal part of the "Iron Body" regimen.

[Raipizo]

You might be misunderstanding our training method. This was a long thread several months ago.

Our training engages the muscle and facia/connective tissue, to stress/stimulate it into growth and resilience.

It's a long series of repetitive movements and postures. THOSE consume the training time.

The body striking comes at the very end and is miminal, timewise.

We all do some supplemental body striking drills, but those aren't a formal part of the "Iron Body" regimen.

oh yeah i remember that post. Your method does take a long time.

[SoCo KungFu]

For the original topic, not reading the thread to see how off track its gone, this topic became boring after about the 1st 2 weeks of undergrad physiology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_remodeling