Starting a Studio

[twistingcrane]

How many of you have started your own studio? How much money did you need to start? How did you calculate that? How long did it take you to start making money or did it not? Just curious.

[Shaolin]

Start up capital can range from $0 - $500,000

Factors for starting your school:

Real estate - are you teaching out of your backyard, leasing space or buying land/building? How well can you negotiate a contract?

Operating Equipment - desk, computer, programs, printer, scanner, phone, internet, card swiper

Training Equipment - I recommend starting with the bare minimum. Most school owners make the mistake of building their dream school with all the bells and whistles in it. Then they have a beautiful school and NO students. All you truly need to open is mats on the floor, focus mitts, and a few kicking shields. Everything else you can buy when you start to turn a profit.

Marketing/advertising - #1 they are not the same, and not knowing that can get you in trouble real fast. #2 this expense is more important than all that dream equipment you desire. This can include web site, SEO specialist, LED building sign, window vinyls, direct marketing, roadside advertisements, etc.

There is much more involved in opening a school, these are just some of the basics. As far as time frame on turning a profit that's another subject in itself.

[YouKnowWho]

The rent cost may be a major factor. Back in 1973, the rent for my school was only $275 a month. Oneday a TKD school just open. I went to visit that school. The instructor there told me the rent for his school was $1600 per months. That was a lot of money back then. That school didn't last for 6 months and closed down after that.

[Shaolin]

^ That is an excellent point.

Unfortunately most martial arts instructors have a wonderful dream of owning a school, and have lots of knowledge to pass on to the students but don't know how to negotiate a lease. And negotiating the lease goes way further than just what you pay in monthly rent.

This is also why I recommend to build your school from the outside in, instead of the inside out. Focus more of the start up capital on bringing in new students instead of a bunch of equipment.

Just because you open a new school and it looks amazing on the inside doesn't mean people will flock to sign up.

[TenTigers]

if you can find industrial space-in a spot with good visibility, and in a good area, that would be great. Industrial space is a fraction of commercial space.
(in my area, all the industrial space is in the bad areas, off the beaten path.) :-(

The flipside is a storefront in a strip mall in an upscale neighborhood-mucho denaro.
But, you can make it work with offering a ton of classes-different age groups, kickboxing classes, tai-chi, zumba, etc. (you are paying rent for 24 hrs a day. If you only teach four hours a day, then you are paying rent for all the other time. You need to fill that space with income generating classes, even if that means hiring an instructor.
Don't scoff at the schools offering zumba, belly dancing, cardio kickboxing, yoga, etc
They bring in Moms, Grandma, sisters, etc.
and all of them have brothers, children, boyfriends, husbands, etc...
I know of a traditional Karate dojo, that offers, kodokan judo, kobudo, and zen meditation. Keeping it all traditional Japanese, but still filling up his time slots.
I do something similar-All my other classes are still Chinese Martial Arts oriented.
Tao-Yoga, Tai-Chi, Sanda/sanshao, Chinese grappling

[Subitai]

What i'm doing is not for everyone... Especially if you want allot of profit. :)

i'm one of those who Opt for not going the commercial school type route. No contracts or belts and I don't teach children, adults only.

I bought a house that has a work out room attached. It's got a high ceiling, mirrors and all that. Most i've fit in there is 12 people but my average is only about 8. During the warmer months we do weapons outside. Total student enrollment is less than 30. But I also suppliment with privates and seminars.

I keep my overhead really low and come tax time its just best for me to report everything. I don't make enough to try hiding it from the Gov. Haha.

As has been well put by the guys so far...it's difficult (especially in this Economy) to go the Full Open commercial school setup. I trained to better myself and my Kung Fu but I was never taught "THE BUSINESS of Martial Arts". Over the years many Well meaning and skilled teachers have failed for that very same reason.

I know i'm lucky to be able to do what i'm doing. It's definately not possible for everyone. But it has enabled me to truely focus on my skill progression over the years and not have to worry about the business aspects too much.

[mooyingmantis]

How many of you have started your own studio? How much money did you need to start? How did you calculate that? How long did it take you to start making money or did it not? Just curious.

Twistingcrane,

I have been teaching TCMA since 1978.

INDIANA
In 1978 I started teaching as a part of a church outreach program. There was no overhead, since the church provided the facilities. Thus there was no charge. I had about 30 - 40 students.

In 1983 I started teaching in a local park. It was no longer associated with church activities, but I still did not charge. I had about 10 students.

In 1984 I bought a house and remodeled my two car garage into a martial arts studio. The remodeling cost was minimal (drywall, paint and a few decorations). At this point I started charging students $25 per month for tuition. I ranged between 10 - 15 students. Since I was happy to teach as just a part time endeavor, I was quite satisfied with the extra cash.
At this same time I also taught via a local public access TV channel.
Then I hired a professional cameraman to help me produce instructional videotapes of TCMA forms. I made several thousand dollars for a few hundred dollars investment. :)

OHIO
In 1986 I moved to Ohio and began teaching in a park. I again charged $25 per student and taught a handful of students over the years.

In 1994 I decided to try a different approach. I offered lifetime memberships for $250 per person. Several people signed up and it was quite successful. Though only one of these students is still in contact with me.
At the same time I started doing seminars in other states which brought in more money.

In 2005 I purchased a house and immediately converted my two car garage into a nice TCMA school. It is small (14 X 22) but very nicely furnished. I no longer charge novices for instruction, though I am considering starting to charge a minimal fee again. My main income source from TCMA comes from teaching other MA instructors. Over the last nearly twenty years I have taught eight paying students who had their own schools or who were already black belts in their own respective art.

Based on my experience, I have learned the following lessons:

If you start teaching without tuition, then try to charge a tuition later, most students will refuse to pay and leave.

Renting a building and paying utilities is the death of most new schools. I have NEVER paid overhead and pocketed almost every dime I have ever made.

No marketing, no students. Word of mouth doesn't get you very far.

If you try to make your living off of your art, it becomes a "job" in every sense of the word.

If you try to make your living off of your art, you will have to water it down for most people. In over 30 years of teaching I only have produced less than ten "hardcore" students. Two of these students have been with me since 1978.

Have good insurance! The student who seems to be your friend today, may have a lawsuit against you in the future.

Just my thoughts. :)

[GeneChing]

You can get great discounts on all manner of things with a resale license. If you're teaching enough students to be a taxable business, there's no reason not to take advantage of the benefits of a resale license.

Second step: Set up a wholesale account with Tiger Claw (https://www.tigerclaw.com/home.php). ;)

[Faruq]

How many of you have started your own studio? How much money did you need to start? How did you calculate that? How long did it take you to start making money or did it not? Just curious.

I've fortunately never wanted to open a school. I've always liked how the Pak Mei people say they are businessmen who happen to know gung fu and teach it for free. But if money is your object, and laugh as hard as you want, James Patrick Lacy is rumored to have made close to 7 figures per year at the height of him fame, and 6 figures each of the other years. Never had a job the whole time. But back to being serious, I like what the school owner here on the forum like Mooyingmantis and Tentigers have said. You can't beat going straight to the horses mouth, and they have given you great advice out of their own hard earned experience.

[twistingcrane]

Excellent responses. Thank you all. Did any of you take out loans or have an investor? The thought was not to make tons of money, but to replace the 9-5 job again. It would require making some money. It's quite a leap of faith.

[mooyingmantis]

Excellent responses. Thank you all. Did any of you take out loans or have an investor? The thought was not to make tons of money, but to replace the 9-5 job again. It would require making some money. It's quite a leap of faith.

I never took out a loan or needed an investor.

But I do have a few more things to add.

Start out by asking yourself what you think your time is worth, then start from there.

If you say your time is worth $25/hour and you are going to teach five days a week for two hours each day per month, you will need at least forty students paying $25 each. That will cover what you believe your time is worth BEFORE rent, utilities, insurance, advertising, equipment, etc..

If you charge $50 per student you will only need twenty students to make the same amount of money for your time. Twenty more students then provides $1000/month for your overhead costs.

To replace a 9 to 5 job

Say you need $3000 for your monthly income. At $100/student you would need thirty students just to meet your personal expenses BEFORE rent, utilities, insurance, advertising, equipment, etc..

Now imagine the square feet of space you will need to teach a large class. Of course most days not all thirty students will show up at one time. But you should have adequate space in the rare instance that they would. How much does commercial buildings charge per square foot in your area?

What will liability insurance cost per month? Does the insurance company allow monthly payments, or will you have to provide six months or a year's worth of premiums before you open your doors?

What does this all equal and how many students will it take to support this business?

[Syn7]

Don't scoff at the schools offering zumba, belly dancing, cardio kickboxing, yoga, etc

What is zumba? Some sort of MA boxersizing hybrid or something like that?

[TenTigers]

yeah, I work full time, and I have found ways to work around,"watering down"things in my teaching.
I don't compromise on the horse, but I do save harder sparring for more advanced students who want to go that route.
Classes are an hour long instead of several hours.
I have a syllabus and a ranking system.
I still turn down people who I feel have a bad attitude or are dishonest
("not even for 1,ooo pieces of gold..")
And..I teach children..
(sigh...it's like herding cats...)
BUT...


I look forward to going to "work," every day!
there is nothing I would ever choose to do.


(then again, I'm 55 yrs old-who would hire me? So I'm stuck doing this forever anyway!)

[Subitai]

yeah, I work full time, and I have found ways to work around,"watering down"things in my teaching.
I don't compromise on the horse, but I do save harder sparring for more advanced students who want to go that route.
Classes are an hour long instead of several hours.
I have a syllabus and a ranking system.
I still turn down people who I feel have a bad attitude or are dishonest
("not even for 1,ooo pieces of gold..")
And..I teach children..
(sigh...it's like herding cats...)
BUT...


I look forward to going to "work," every day!
there is nothing I would ever choose to do.

(then again, I'm 55 yrs old-who would hire me? So I'm stuck doing this forever anyway!)

I'm not knocking ya TEN... in fact the opposite. = I admire that you can pull off having a bigger school. Call me Chicken Sh!t but i've always been allittle afraid to take the leap.
I mean for obvious reasons stated, especially when so many new start ups fail.

So long as you have your core group of dudes...I think it's cool.

[TenTigers]

I hear ya bro.
I was afraid to take the leap as well, but when I was working security, I had a supervisor "help" me with that.
He fired me right before Christmas.
I went from part-time to full time teaching from that time on, and never looked back.

[Faruq]

Do people come into your schools and challenge you guys regularly? I had a sifu ask me if I knew how many times that happens to him among all his other problems running his school when I told him I wasn't going to have my class fees for the next month so I was going to need a month off many years ago. How do you sifus handle challenges off the street?

[SenseiShellie]

Excellent responses. Thank you all. Did any of you take out loans or have an investor? The thought was not to make tons of money, but to replace the 9-5 job again. It would require making some money. It's quite a leap of faith.

I'm personally not taking out a loan or getting an investor. I've saved up so I can do it on my own. Also, I do have an additional part time job on the side. I am keeping it so that way I will be able to make sure my expenses are paid and the school will be able to survive on its own BEFORE I quit my day job. Good luck!

[YouKnowWho]

Do people come into your schools and challenge you guys regularly?

If you can display single edge knife, double edge sword, staff, spear, Guan Dao, ... in your training hall, most likely nobody would want to challenge you.

A boxer challenged a TCMA teacher. The TCMA teacher accepted and agreed with the time and place. During the challenge time, the boxer brought his boxing gloves. The TCMA teacher brought his 10 feet 50 lb Guan Dao.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2563/traininghall.jpg

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9272/boxingglovesg.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1787/guandao.jpg

[Golden Arms]

If you can display single edge knife, double edge sword, staff, spear, Guan Dao, ... in your training hall, most likely nobody would want to challenge you.

A boxer challenged a TCMA teacher. The TCMA teacher accepted and agreed with the time and place. During the challenge time, the boxer brought his boxing gloves. The TCMA teacher brought his 10 feet 50 lb Guan Dao.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2563/traininghall.jpg

LOL that first image is from my old Hung Gar school.

[YouKnowWho]

Do people come into your schools and challenge you guys regularly?
During my high school summer time training, we were training outdoor. The local gang members passed by. Since we had a group around 30, everybody all had weapon such as Jian, Dao, staff, spear, Guan Dao. Even the local gang members were afraid to mess with us. That's one advantage to train TCMA when firearms are not possible to obtain.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7615/johnold2.jpg

[TenTigers]

Do people come into your schools and challenge you guys regularly? I had a sifu ask me if I knew how many times that happens to him among all his other problems running his school when I told him I wasn't going to have my class fees for the next month so I was going to need a month off many years ago. How do you sifus handle challenges off the street?
My Sifu read me the riot act when it came time to open my school;
"When someone comes in to challenge you , you show no quarter.
Put him through the window. Take the kuan-dao off the wall! etc.."
Ok, so he told me about all the macho stuff.
What he didn't warn me about was the 6' womyn who came on to some of the other females in my school...
-or the 4 yr old kid who tried to flush a toy truck down my toilet-had to call the plumber, remove the entire toilet..
-or the parents of the spoiled brat who didn't get promoted that week,
-or all the parents who tell you how smart their child is, which is a warning sign that they'll be taking the short bus to your mo-kwoon.

He also said that once you put your sign out, folks from Chinatown would come in to check to see if I was legit.

True Story: There was a guy who put up a sign that said he taught Fu Jow P'ai.
So a group of guys from Chinatown paid a visit.
"you teach Fu Jow P'ai here?"
"yep, I sure do!"
"Oh really? Well then you should know Wai Hong, right?"
"I never heard of him."
"Wai Hong is the Grandmaster of Fu Jow P'ai here in Chinatown.
We don't care what you teach here. Teach whatever crap you want, but Don't say you teach Fu Jow P'ai. Take your sign down. Or we will."
The guy closed the next day and left town.
(most guys from NY remember that story!)
I had some people check me out when I put my sign up, but they walked in, and recognized me, and knew where I was from, etc. (one was actually one of my Si-Hings from Yee's Hung-Ga, and didn't realize it was my school until we started talking and then he recognized me!) so there never was an issue.

The few guys who challenged me did it more like, "Well, I used to box. What would you do against a boxer?" and he would take up a guard, or throw a jab. After "politely" shutting them down, and then showing what kind of follow ups would occur, they always backed off.
Sometimes, I would demonstrate my point on a senior student, so as to keep it non-confrontational, and that would usually be sufficient.
One guy who came in, basically told me he was going from school to school, challenging the teachers who he felt weren't "worthy" of teaching.
We spoke, exchanged technique, and ended up being training partners for the last 25 yrs.

[mooyingmantis]

Do people come into your schools and challenge you guys regularly? I had a sifu ask me if I knew how many times that happens to him among all his other problems running his school when I told him I wasn't going to have my class fees for the next month so I was going to need a month off many years ago. How do you sifus handle challenges off the street?

Faruq,
This was common practice in the 70s. I taught in the inner-city of Ft. Wayne, Indiana. My school had formerly been a pool hall and still had bullet holes in the walls. The church I worked with was using it for Sunday school classes and we did our kung fu classes in there during the week.
I was challenged many time. Students from the TKD school nearby, boxers, local thugs, etc.. Fortunately, I was fast, strong and admittedly too crazy to be afraid back then. Dumb luck or skill, I never lost a fight.
Now that I teach out of my garage turned guan I don't have any problems with it. :D

[TenTigers]

The problem with teaching out of your home is, that at least for me, it takes some time before you really know a person's character. You don't really want strangers coming to your home where you and your family live.

[mooyingmantis]

The problem with teaching out of your home is, that at least for me, it takes some time before you really know a person's character. You don't really want strangers coming to your home where you and your family live.

Good point!

[Syn7]

yeah, I work full time, and I have found ways to work around,"watering down"things in my teaching.
I don't compromise on the horse, but I do save harder sparring for more advanced students who want to go that route.
Classes are an hour long instead of several hours.
I have a syllabus and a ranking system.
I still turn down people who I feel have a bad attitude or are dishonest
("not even for 1,ooo pieces of gold..")
And..I teach children..
(sigh...it's like herding cats...)
BUT...


I look forward to going to "work," every day!
there is nothing I would ever choose to do.


(then again, I'm 55 yrs old-who would hire me? So I'm stuck doing this forever anyway!)

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can honestly say "I look forward to going to "work," every day!" is winning the game. Good on ya TT. I don't hate what I do, but I don't look foreword to going to work very often. The only time I do look foreword to work is when something extra-ordinary is going on that day, and it's not very often. Maybe 2 or 3 times per job and 1 job typically lasts about 1 to 1.5 years.

[TenTigers]

The problem with teaching out of your home is, that at least for me, it takes some time before you really know a person's character. You don't really want strangers coming to your home where you and your family live.
Heck, it took me ten years to find out my ex was a bloomin' psycho...

[Syn7]

Good point!


Yeah, but you only have a few students and they are all people you know, no? You don't do it as a living anymore, right? I remember you told me a few years ago, but I forget. :o

[Shaolin]

I've heard stories of other instructors being challenged. Personally I've never had this happen in all my years. Even when someone comes into my school with a little attitude or puffed up I can turn the meeting positive, but for the most part I don't attract those types.

[TenTigers]

I've heard stories of other instructors being challenged. Personally I've never had this happen in all my years. Even when someone comes into my school with a little attitude or puffed up I can turn the meeting positive, but for the most part I don't attract those types.
I hear ya. Usually my demeanor changes their demeanor. If I come back at them friendly and then show interest in who they are, then their walls come down, and they become much more open.
I've had guys who were wrestlers come in with an attitude, and I turn it around on them and say,"Wow, we don't really have much of that. Perhaps you could come in and give a seminar."
they never follow up for some reason...

[ginosifu]

How many of you have started your own studio? How much money did you need to start? How did you calculate that? How long did it take you to start making money or did it not? Just curious.

I teach full time, and I would not have it any other way. Teaching full time means making some sacrifices such as: teaching kids... takin it easy on females.

Before either of us were married, my teacher had a nice space for cheap (like $200 per month rent). He killed us and never cared if you stayed or not. We really trained hardcore old school TCMA. There was no need to make a lot of money. Sleep at the school... train all day.... teach all night etc.

Years later when he married and wanted to have a family, things changed. He had to make money to provied for his family. This is when we started takin it easy on peep so they would not quit. He raised the price for training a bit started adding more kids. We started manipulating the curriculum, making it lighter and more mangable for all students.

When I opened my school in 97 it took almost $10,000 to get started. However, I had a head start, my teacher had opened a center and had me teaching there for a bit. Then when he asked if I wanted to buy it, I had already all the mats, pads, mitts, mirrors etc etc there. All I had to was to cover my teacher initial investment he put into the school. Since the school was new and there was not a lot of students, he let me pay him back in monthly installments.

At first I was teaching old school style.. I would make students do 500 jumping jacks, 200 push ups, 200 donkey kicks, 200 sit ups etc. Classes were 2 1/2 hours long and we trained hard.

After I married in 2001 everything changed just as my teachers did. No more sleeping on a cot at the school. Had to get an apartment for me and the wife. Now I had to make money ! Now I was worried about keeping the students longer so they could continue to pay tuition. No more 500 jumping jacks, had to take it easy on females, added more kids classes etc.

If you do not have a lot of capitol, start with something small. Keep your day job. As things build and your studnet base gets bigger then think about expanding. As you expand you may be ready to quit your day job and go pro like me and TenTigers !

ginosifu

[Faruq]

I hear ya. Usually my demeanor changes their demeanor. If I come back at them friendly and then show interest in who they are, then their walls come down, and they become much more open.
I've had guys who were wrestlers come in with an attitude, and I turn it around on them and say,"Wow, we don't really have much of that. Perhaps you could come in and give a seminar."
they never follow up for some reason...

Wow, that's great. It's like some weird aikido mind trick where you turn their own words against them, lol. But without any malice! Nice!

[TenTigers]

Wow, that's great. It's like some weird aikido mind trick where you turn their own words against them, lol. But without any malice! Nice!
you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
I do the same thing when I turn away people who I feel are not "right."
I tell them what they don't want to hear, so they feel it is their own decision not to stay, rather than saying, "I won't teach you because you're a db."
This way, there are no hard feelings and I don't get my windows broken because he got his feelings hurt.

[mooyingmantis]

Yeah, but you only have a few students and they are all people you know, no? You don't do it as a living anymore, right? I remember you told me a few years ago, but I forget. :o

I usually teach people I already know. Those who contact me that I don't know, go through an interview process. I consider my school a private school and I am selective on who I let in. I would rather train one serious student than a class full of poseurs. Currently I have three students. Recently, I threw my own son out for not following proper decorum. :(

I have never used teaching martial arts as my main job. I am not against it. I simply think it would be too much work and not enough pleasure for me.

[Syn7]

I usually teach people I already know. Those who contact me that I don't know, go through an interview process. I consider my school a private school and I am selective on who I let in. I would rather train one serious student than a class full of poseurs. Currently I have three students. Recently, I threw my own son out for not following proper decorum. :(

I have never used teaching martial arts as my main job. I am not against it. I simply think it would be too much work and not enough pleasure for me.

You tossed your kid for good or just for a temp ban? You are a hardcore disciplinarian huh. LOL.

Yeah I thought that's what I remembered. Wasn't sure tho. If I was a teacher, in anything, I would feel the same way you do, I think.

I would think it's difficult to make a real living off teaching MA's. Most fail miserably and quality of the art and sifu isn't the main factor. Especially in the more rural areas.

[Faruq]

you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
I do the same thing when I turn away people who I feel are not "right."
I tell them what they don't want to hear, so they feel it is their own decision not to stay, rather than saying, "I won't teach you because you're a db."
This way, there are no hard feelings and I don't get my windows broken because he got his feelings hurt.

But like what do you mean when you say you tell them what they don't want to hear? Like please give an example, because it sounds like its something really useful to know how to say.

[TenTigers]

But like what do you mean when you say you tell them what they don't want to hear? Like please give an example, because it sounds like its something really useful to know how to say.
sort of like opposite salesmanship.
One of the things I learned is that you ask before you speak.
"Do you do full contact sparring here?"
now if I say, "Oh yeah, we spar full contact"
he might answer,"Oh, ok. I don't want to do full contact sparring...click." oops.

so instead, you say,"Are you interested in full contact sparring?" and go from there.

I do the same thing, only in reverse.
"Do you do full-contact sparring here?"
"Are you interested in full contact sparring?"
"Yeah. I want to spar full contact."
"Oh no. we do mostly drilling and forms."
"ok, thanks. click."

No harm, no foul.

[Faruq]

Wow, you're a smooth talker. lol. Nice, TenTigers.

[CLFNole]

You could start out teaching in a park and once you build up enough students go to a "sticks and bricks" location. This way you could build up funds that you would need when opening at a real location.

[RickMatz]

An aikido teacher I know has a "day job" as a fireman.

As a fireman, he has a living salary, excellent benefits, a retirement program and ... lots of time. When he's on duty it's basically a 24 hour shift, but he only works about 10 days a month.

Like many other firemen, he has a side job. His side job is running his aikido school.

As he already has a living wage and benefits, the bar for how much he actually needs to make to keep his school up and running has been lowered. He can write off the cost of his own training with his seniors and seminars, etc as business expenses.

When he's at work, he has his senior students lead the class in practicing their testing techniques. When he's not at the firehouse, he teaches.

[mooyingmantis]

sort of like opposite salesmanship.
One of the things I learned is that you ask before you speak.
"Do you do full contact sparring here?"
now if I say, "Oh yeah, we spar full contact"
he might answer,"Oh, ok. I don't want to do full contact sparring...click." oops.

so instead, you say,"Are you interested in full contact sparring?" and go from there.

I do the same thing, only in reverse.
"Do you do full-contact sparring here?"
"Are you interested in full contact sparring?"
"Yeah. I want to spar full contact."
"Oh no. we do mostly drilling and forms."
"ok, thanks. click."

No harm, no foul.

Very impressive!!!