A little WC during clinch practice

[SAAMAG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6qXe5d7Bhg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Wu Wei Wu]

Nice work.

I can see how this type of practice and tempo could be useful.

Suki

[SAAMAG]

Thanks. I posted this to show how some of us use WC differently...in this case during a clinch session. This idea of WC being a tool for use in the clinch was something that was discussed here some time ago by myself and a couple others.

The reason it's not done lightning fast is because I'm matching his movement, no sense in going fast when the point is to work the clinch. If we added in the punches, dirty boxing, and so forth then yea.

[Phil Redmond]

I like it but you'll get the non-combatants that will say where is the Wing Chun. They have blinders. lol Good work brother.

[SAAMAG]

Hey Phil!

Long time. I guess you figured out that Vankuen changed his name. ; ) I generally stopped posting because of the repeated rhetoric and constant bickering about politics and trivial non-fight related subject matter.

Is Victor still here too?

-Van

EDIT: oops disregard. I just read about him and T'. Hopefully Robert C is still around and active along with yourself.

[Wayfaring]

Thanks. I posted this to show how some of us use WC differently...in this case during a clinch session. This idea of WC being a tool for use in the clinch was something that was discussed here some time ago by myself and a couple others.

The reason it's not done lightning fast is because I'm matching his movement, no sense in going fast when the point is to work the clinch. If we added in the punches, dirty boxing, and so forth then yea.

I like that you are training in a live unrestricted movement fashion, and that you are using gear and training methods from your MT training to enhance WCK training.

What I don't like is that the entire exercise is done in clinch range, but there is no clinch. In WCK terms there is no bridge. At that range a clinch (either Thai plum, angle + WCK bridge contact, or wrestling variations) serves to limit your opponent's movement while keeping your movement free such that you can dictate where the fight goes and hit without getting hit, or execute a takedown. Without that element it is two people staying in the pocket in a lucky strike situation. Or like rock-em-sock-em robots. Whichever robot is stronger or has a harder head knocks the others block off.

In all disciplines that I'm familiar with in this area (WCK, MT, Boxing, Wrestling, MMA) the idea is to hit without getting hit. Range and a clinch or bridge are the tools that make that happen. Getting in, striking, and getting out are key for many of the movement based systems (Boxing, MT, MMA) or Getting in, striking, clinching, and striking with movement (Thai plum), or takedowns (MMA). Science or technique should provide tools to allow you to hit without getting hit.

I can see the value in a drill like that maybe as a burnout series at the end of a sparring round for conditioning purposes and/or training to finish an opponent when you have them in trouble. But that would be more of a high-paced drill as opposed to the touch/timing pace you are going.

I could care less whether or not drills "look like WC".

.02 from the peanut gallery. You're going in the right direction, keep refining.

[SAAMAG]

I agree with you and thats very good insight, which I expected from those that also cross train in this area. I'm actually working with a student at his level to give him something different to work with. This was actually just a minute or so of several rounds of thai pluum. He's doing his best to try and get grips with me, but just can't get achieve it there. Eventually he figures out how to get to clinching again, but for that minute he was thrown off.

[Wayfaring]

I agree with you and thats very good insight, which I expected from those that also cross train in this area. I'm actually working with a student at his level to give him something different to work with. This was actually just a minute or so of several rounds of thai pluum. He's doing his best to try and get grips with me, but just can't get achieve it there. Eventually he figures out how to get to clinching again, but for that minute he was thrown off.

Good stuff. Of course short video clips don't show the whole story ;)

[wingchunIan]

ok, I'll say it "I don't see any wing chun" for that matter I don't see any clinching either. There is boxing a plenty. As far as the "typical of a non fighter" rhetoric is concerned before anyone starts (well anyone else apart from Phil who has already said it), I've had my share of fights, real ones and whilst it rarely looks pretty the Wing Chun that I know and love doesn't look like boxing either. In the interests of discussion I'd love someone to point out the Wing Chun in the clip.
I'm not knocking the training btw it looks good fun and a decent work out. As I always say each to their own.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I see some close range boxing, but no clinch as WCIan has pointed out. I am a fan of doing some boxing on the inside as it often gets ignored in favor of other skills, and it can be devistating.

However, in a typical martial arts setting bending your head forward that close to someone means that you are giving up the grappling clinch like a prom date. That's my only real concern.

[SAAMAG]

The student was working Muay Thai clinching. However, when I switched to WC on him during the session he no longer could get any grips and had to figure out what to do with it. Thats why you don't see the clinch in its traditional manner.

The other two guys where working hooks and uppercuts inside the pocket, finding and guarding openings. They were purposely not clinching.

As far as the WC you don't see, the principles being used here should be plain as day obvious. But that really depends on you're interpretation of what WC is. As the years have gone on, I see it more as control in the bridge/clinch range than one where you are doing a bunch of slappedy nonsense with a backfist thrown in.

Sticking, spreading, rotating/deflecting, subduing, chi, tan, bong, fook...the energies work extremely well during clinchwork...be it Thai, Greco, MMA, or otherwise.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The other two guys where working hooks and uppercuts inside the pocket, finding and guarding openings. They were purposely not clinching.


They need to pull their head up. Punching with the head so far down like that in a martial arts setting will get you smoked.

[SAAMAG]

The purpose for that drill is to help them learn for themselves how to position on the inside where hooks and uppercuts are used. I know what they were doing and what needs to be corrected, but I appreciate your concern.

Before you give advice on inside body position and talking about head position and posture, you should watch this, and/or learn some boxing. High stances and chins only work in theoretical wing chun.

You want to be low, elbows down, and compact. Your head down and shoulders up. Your stance really defends most body hooks, turning does the job more often than not. Uppercuts are palmed ideally with the opposite side hand as you counter sink your body. Now they were far from perfect, chins exposed, shoulders not up, stance not wide enough, hands not in the right position, and the list goes on. The head being low though? Nope...you want that.

Note in the video below...that they are forehead to forehead many many times. Also note that the guys getting hit the worst are the ones that rise up and stand tall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r435ensNd40&sns=em

[GlennR]

They need to pull their head up. Punching with the head so far down like that in a martial arts setting will get you smoked.

Boy youve got that backwards

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6qXe5d7Bhg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Guys up front, all good standard light work done in the pocket.

All good with the guys up the back except (from my WC perspective) to much "searching" with the hands at punching range, id be bridging with a punch and working from that

Nicely done!

[SAAMAG]

Guys up front, all good standard light work done in the pocket.

All good with the guys up the back except (from my WC perspective) to much "searching" with the hands at punching range, id be bridging with a punch and working from that

Nicely done!

I agree...normally I'd be punching a lot. I generally don't stay in that range unless I'm hitting the other guy. This was a drill though with no punching whatsoever. I wanted him working knees and elbows though once he found a dominant tie/grip. He DID do that though later in the session. Still has some to learn to keep things compact and use his longer limbs to get as much leverage as possible.

I've always got something I'm working on too...after all...student first teacher second.

[Frost]

guys in front nice light work, would have liked to see more overhands and a bit more close body contact: ie using the shoulder to shock the guy away to make an opening and i thought they might be a bit too square to each other but i was always taught this drill starting oposite shoulder to shoulder and stay touching so maybe im biased lol

guys at back i personally dont like the hand reaching and grabbing the opponents arms, i know strikes werent allowed but it builds bad habits for me anyway, guy in white t-shirt looked new and hesitate to go for the plum sort of stood in range and let you work on him, he should be a bit more proactive, but only minor points it looked like fun and is good training!

[SAAMAG]

No worries...I was reaching and giving him my arms to work with and just messed with him a bit to spice it up. He does get over it eventually, but then I switched back from chi sao clinch to standard Muay Thai.

I may upload a couple rounds worth one of these days.

[wingchunIan]

As far as the WC you don't see, the principles being used here should be plain as day obvious. But that really depends on you're interpretation of what WC is. As the years have gone on, I see it more as control in the bridge/clinch range than one where you are doing a bunch of slappedy nonsense with a backfist thrown in.


lol that logic is the same as taking a Lexus badge and sticking it on a Ford, adding in some Lexus mats and saying that you're driving a Lexus.
As for
a bunch of slappedy nonsense with a backfist thrown in I couldn't say, we don't have backfists of any kind in the Wing Chun that I've been taught and none of our strikes are slaps either. I didn't really watch the guys at the back as i presumed they were relatively inexperienced and not meant to be the subject of the clip but as far as the foreground goes I'm still in the dark as to the Wing Chun used.

[Frost]

lol that logic is the same as taking a Lexus badge and sticking it on a Ford, adding in some Lexus mats and saying that you're driving a Lexus.
As for I couldn't say, we don't have backfists of any kind in the Wing Chun that I've been taught and none of our strikes are slaps either. I didn't really watch the guys at the back as i presumed they were relatively inexperienced and not meant to be the subject of the clip but as far as the foreground goes I'm still in the dark as to the Wing Chun used.

i think the guys in front were practising basic inside boxing drills, not wing chun, i think the wing chun was meant to be happening in the bak ground :)

[SAAMAG]

Yep, guys in the bottom corner were doing a boxing drill, guys in the back were actually in the middle of a thai clinching session. Ive already explained the clip is a portion of a longer session which I'm sure Ian has read.

He is a talented out-fighter just not too much experience on the inside or in grips. That's why I'm not teeing off. I'm giving him opportunity to learn without overloading. I realize many in the WC circles enjoy going to town on their students and film it to make themselves feel better but I have no need for that. I work at just above the level of the student.

The point to this is that using WC principles and energy in the clinch is perfectly viable. Actually, I used it to react to his movement and avoid the clinch technically. Something that was discussed here some time ago. Some feel wing chun was designed for the clinch, others not so much. IMO WC is energy and intent, not specific hand forms. It doesn't require doing a bunch of pak sao's, tan da's, or the like to be defined as a WC skill. But what's happening there is pure WC developed principles.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Boy youve got that backwards Go to a Muay thai gym, ask to spar, and see what happens when you lean your head on a guys shoulder or look at the floor while you punch. The fact that you find the boxing acceptable is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the clinch.

Inside boxing punches are great and often neglected. The problem is that if you are going to use them in mma or kickboxing, you can't come in like a boxer and lay your head on someone or be lazy with your punches as those guys are doing. You have to stay clear of the grabs and be crisp.

[SAAMAG]

I understand where you're coming from. But they weren't kickboxing nor were they working in the Muay Thai sense. They were doing the drill in the context of boxing.

Unfortunately, since they're human and had been working for the past 2.5 hours, they may have been making some mistakes. Can't all be perfect like you brotha.

[k gledhill]

I understand where you're coming from. But they weren't kickboxing nor were they working in the Muay Thai sense. They were doing the drill in the context of boxing.

Unfortunately, since they're human and had been working for the past 2.5 hours, they may have been making some mistakes. Can't all be perfect like you brotha.

What! You're not perfect? Crazy talk ; )

[HumbleWCGuy]

Unfortunately, since they're human and had been working for the past 2.5 hours, they may have been making some mistakes. Can't all be perfect like you brotha.

I don't expect perfection. I do not claim to be perfect. There is also no reason to get defensive over mistakes. You have to expect that posting a clip will allow others to point out what you may not have noticed.

[YouKnowWho]

WC during clinch practice ...
If you don't train the following situations, you are not truly training your clinch.

- wrist grab,
- arm wrap,
- elbow control,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- head lock,
- bear hug,
- waist wrap,
- back neck control,
- ...

You may not like to use move such as under hook, but since you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you, you have to train "how to deal with it".

[GlennR]

Go to a Muay thai gym, ask to spar,

I train Muay Thai, 3-4 times a week , have for 4 years, and spar 2 of those days.
You?
By all means lets have a discussion about MT, i look forward to it.


and see what happens when you lean your head on a guys shoulder or look at the floor while you punch. The fact that you find the boxing acceptable is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the clinch.

You were initially commenting about the the two guys at the front, close range boxing you called it, and then went on to say you "wouldnt bend the head" Id call that tucking the chin.
The men were boxing: Lesson one..... tuck the chin


Inside boxing punches are great and often neglected. The problem is that if you are going to use them in mma or kickboxing, you can't come in like a boxer and lay your head on someone or be lazy with your punches as those guys are doing. You have to stay clear of the grabs and be crisp.

Who was talking about MMA?
They were doing a boxing drill at close range.... but hey you knew that ,as you said" I am a fan of doing some boxing on the inside as it often gets ignored in favor of other skills, and it can be devistating"

[SAAMAG]

I don't expect perfection. I do not claim to be perfect. There is also no reason to get defensive over mistakes. You have to expect that posting a clip will allow others to point out what you may not have noticed.

I have no problem with people noticing things. I do wonder however why people assume things and/or don't read posts preceding their own to understand the context of what's being done.

I also don't understand why people think they need to "correct" or teach others in arts they don't train in or have no idea of the level of training the poster has. I've trained in Muay Thai for over 20 years. Boxing for nearly the same. Wing Chun for longer.

Your thoughts are appreciated however.

[SAAMAG]

If you don't train the following situations, you are not truly training your clinch.

- wrist grab,
- arm wrap,
- elbow control,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- head lock,
- bear hug,
- waist wrap,
- back neck control,
- ...

You may not like to use move such as under hook, but since you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you, you have to train "how to deal with it".

I agree. But what if your WC was good enough relative to the opponent to be....ANTI CLINCH?! Kinda like WT's anti-grappling! I'm kidding mind you. It was a break from the normal clinching as noted before your post.

[SAAMAG]

But let's chat about one aspect. Who here thinks that WC is a viable tool for clinch work?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have no problem with people noticing things. I do wonder however why people assume things and/or don't read posts preceding their own to understand the context of what's being done.

I also don't understand why people think they need to "correct" or teach others in arts they don't train in or have no idea of the level of training the poster has. I've trained in Muay Thai for over 20 years. Boxing for nearly the same. Wing Chun for longer.

Your thoughts are appreciated however.
I suppose that people have their own reasons. I mostly like to be helpful and like to share what I know.

I suppose that others are the same way. Some just project their own inadequacies on others (Dale Frank, T Niehoff, David Ross, and so on).

I think that you are being a little sensitive about my criticisms. I do like that you guys are training boxing as part of the inside fighting arsenal. I agree that you need to get lower than you might normally be on the inside, I was just pointing out that they needed to not lean forward especially onto each other. You admitted that it could have been crisper.

I also complimented you guys for practicing inside punching. I thought that fact that you had the good sense to work inside punching at all made your gym smarter than most. I think that inside punching is neglected.


Sorry that I missed what was happening in the background.

[HumbleWCGuy]

But let's chat about one aspect. Who here thinks that WC is a viable tool for clinch work?

It's a great tool. Its strong suite is initiation of a clinch if you ask me.

Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WeCwDDoRd0

[SAAMAG]

I suppose that people have their own reasons. I mostly like to be helpful and like to share what I know.

I suppose that others are the same way. Some just project their own inadequacies on others (Dale Frank, T Niehoff, David Ross, and so on).

I think that you are being a little sensitive about my criticisms. I do like that you guys are training boxing as part of the inside fighting arsenal. I agree that you need to get lower than you might normally be on the inside, I was just pointing out that they needed to not lean forward especially onto each other. You admitted that it could have been crisper.

I also complimented you guys for practicing inside punching. I thought that fact that you had the good sense to work inside punching at all made your gym smarter than most. I think that inside punching is neglected.


Sorry that I missed what was happening in the background.

No need to apologize for anything. Misunderstandings (from either party) can happen. Things always can be crisper, done better. What I like about video footage of training, is that one can see things that didn't notice during the act itself.

I was speaking with the guy in white today on the phone (as he's moved to another city since that footage) and we discussed some of the things that we each saw in the full footage of the entire clinch session. We both spotted the same flaws, things we'd never have known about otherwise.


It's a great tool. Its strong suite is initiation of a clinch if you ask me.

Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WeCwDDoRd0

I can't remember who the conversation was with a good while back...Victor maybe...but we discussed the idea that tan, bong, and fook were really tools to use in the clinch. Not chi sao, not gor sao, but in the CLINCH as wrestlers, greco players, thai's and so forth know it to be. One could even make the specific connection that biu and tan could be used to pierce and spread through someone else's double collar tie, or redirect an attempt of control. Bong to remove a neck grab from an inside starting point, fook to suppress and monitor a neutral grip.

It was theorized that the original intent of the movements was lost when people somewhere down the line simply stopped using it for fighting. Also theorized that like many other styles--it developed several tangents of sub-styles within it. But as time went on and it was watered down because it was no longer being tested, or further developed. Techniques were based on theory instead of reality and empirical evidence. No one ventured outside their doors any longer.

Over the years of working with WC vs WC, that captive training gave folks the impression that many of those drills "make sense" because they flow so well. WC was being developed as literally a chinese boxing form. (I even mentioned that some versions looked like it had origins that could have lied more with the spread of western boxing at the time than with ng mui or a bunch of monks in secret, depending on which history you subscribe to).

But if you look and train WC in a less myopic (and ethnocentristic) manner, you start to see it differently. When you train against all fighters, in all settings, and with proper resistance--coupled with your own body type and stylist preferences, it works BETTER than it did with the cookie cutter stuff you see most people do. It works in a way that functions in full contact, and you end up in full control. Akin to how a BJJ blue belt knows all the moves a black belt does, but the black belt knows how to apply it against real resistance in a real setting on a consistent basis.

My WC style then, has developed into a VERY close quarter method, and exists now only in the clinch range, with the low kicks now making more sense once you off balance the other guy. I have more control now that I've released the doctrinal crap that says tan is exactly here, and moves exactly there....2 mm more to the left. When you focus on the intent and the energy, you know have a freedom that allows it to function instead of governmental bodies that eliminate freedom to let it work for itself.

Does that make sense?

[GlennR]

No need to apologize for anything. Misunderstandings (from either party) can happen. Things always can be crisper, done better. What I like about video footage of training, is that one can see things that didn't notice during the act itself.

I was speaking with the guy in white today on the phone (as he's moved to another city since that footage) and we discussed some of the things that we each saw in the full footage of the entire clinch session. We both spotted the same flaws, things we'd never have known about otherwise.



I can't remember who the conversation was with a good while back...Victor maybe...but we discussed the idea that tan, bong, and fook were really tools to use in the clinch. Not chi sao, not gor sao, but in the CLINCH as wrestlers, greco players, thai's and so forth know it to be. One could even make the specific connection that biu and tan could be used to pierce and spread through someone else's double collar tie, or redirect an attempt of control. Bong to remove a neck grab from an inside starting point, fook to suppress and monitor a neutral grip.

It was theorized that the original intent of the movements was lost when people somewhere down the line simply stopped using it for fighting. Also theorized that like many other styles--it developed several tangents of sub-styles within it. But as time went on and it was watered down because it was no longer being tested, or further developed. Techniques were based on theory instead of reality and empirical evidence. No one ventured outside their doors any longer.

Over the years of working with WC vs WC, that captive training gave folks the impression that many of those drills "make sense" because they flow so well. WC was being developed as literally a chinese boxing form. (I even mentioned that some versions looked like it had origins that could have lied more with the spread of western boxing at the time than with ng mui or a bunch of monks in secret, depending on which history you subscribe to).

But if you look and train WC in a less myopic (and ethnocentristic) manner, you start to see it differently. When you train against all fighters, in all settings, and with proper resistance--coupled with your own body type and stylist preferences, it works BETTER than it did with the cookie cutter stuff you see most people do. It works in a way that functions in full contact, and you end up in full control. Akin to how a BJJ blue belt knows all the moves a black belt does, but the black belt knows how to apply it against real resistance in a real setting on a consistent basis.

My WC style then, has developed into a VERY close quarter method, and exists now only in the clinch range, with the low kicks know making more sense. I have more control now that I've released the doctrinal crap that says tan is exactly here, and moves exactly there....2 mm more to the left. When you focus on the intent and the energy, you know have a freedom that allows it to function instead of governmental bodies that eliminate freedom to let it work for itself.

Does that make sense?

Hey Samaag
I basically agree with your entire post here, a bit busy and will respond in detail tomorrow

[chris bougeard]

@SAAMAG your last post was great buddy. Tan, bong and fook work very well in the clinch ime, we do a lot of gloved sparring and punching into clinch where these tools work very well to subdue and control in this range.

Be great to see some more of your clips :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I can't remember who the conversation was with a good while back...Victor maybe...but we discussed the idea that tan, bong, and fook were really tools to use in the clinch. Not chi sao, not gor sao, but in the CLINCH as wrestlers, greco players, thai's and so forth know it to be. One could even make the specific connection that biu and tan could be used to pierce and spread through someone else's double collar tie, or redirect an attempt of control. Bong to remove a neck grab from an inside starting point, fook to suppress and monitor a neutral grip.

It was theorized that the original intent of the movements was lost when people somewhere down the line simply stopped using it for fighting. Also theorized that like many other styles--it developed several tangents of sub-styles within it. But as time went on and it was watered down because it was no longer being tested, or further developed. Techniques were based on theory instead of reality and empirical evidence. No one ventured outside their doors any longer.

Over the years of working with WC vs WC, that captive training gave folks the impression that many of those drills "make sense" because they flow so well. WC was being developed as literally a chinese boxing form. (I even mentioned that some versions looked like it had origins that could have lied more with the spread of western boxing at the time than with ng mui or a bunch of monks in secret, depending on which history you subscribe to).

But if you look and train WC in a less myopic (and ethnocentristic) manner, you start to see it differently. When you train against all fighters, in all settings, and with proper resistance--coupled with your own body type and stylist preferences, it works BETTER than it did with the cookie cutter stuff you see most people do. It works in a way that functions in full contact, and you end up in full control. Akin to how a BJJ blue belt knows all the moves a black belt does, but the black belt knows how to apply it against real resistance in a real setting on a consistent basis.

My WC style then, has developed into a VERY close quarter method, and exists now only in the clinch range, with the low kicks know making more sense. I have more control now that I've released the doctrinal crap that says tan is exactly here, and moves exactly there....2 mm more to the left. When you focus on the intent and the energy, you know have a freedom that allows it to function instead of governmental bodies that eliminate freedom to let it work for itself.

Does that make sense?

Yea... I know that some people see their WC that way. I never have. I have always used it at an entry system. I have always gotten on the inside and grabbed/clinched, thrown knees, and elbows. I have not used WC as a wrestler like you are saying. At most, I am using it to gain leverage over people's grabs and blocks.

I would say if I am looking to apply dirty boxing types of things, I focus on applying the immovable elbow for leverage which also implies rolling the elbow to strike (bong sao),circling the hands to disengage to strike (heun sao), and so on.

Certainly, we have over and under hooks for controlling, but I never felt like that was the a point of emphasis for WC. Although, I could see someone adopting it as something that worked well for them. I would not stop a guy with wrestling experience from clinching up a guy that way.


Mostly though, once I am on the inside, I have always tried to smother guys with the "plumb" so a lot of the "WC wrestling" as you describe, never really came up in WC. I have trained it in grappling practice of course.

I see WC as a balanced upright art. What makes it unique is that it is one of the few traditional arts that has credible clinch fighting. I do not accept the idea that the clinch fighting is the whole of WC though.

[SAAMAG]

Well it could very well be a case of the brain trying to make sense of the black ink blob, or seeing a face in the clouds. But physically, it seems to fit better for me. The double head/neck grab in Thai clinching (which btw pluum means "clinching" in general, it doesn't denote a specific grip) I could say is a seung man geng sao or double neck pulling hand. Is it the same thing less semantics? Or am I trying to simply make the WC "recognizable" in the realm of combat that I am accustomed to?

Either way--over the years this epiphany seems to be working even under duress. That's a good sign to me since it was developed with a pragmatic system, having gone from theory to road testing and been refined again based on empirical data.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Well it could very well be a case of the brain trying to make sense of the black ink blob, or seeing a face in the clouds. But physically, it seems to fit better for me. The double head/neck grab in Thai clinching (which btw pluum means "clinching" in general, it doesn't denote a specific grip) I could say is a seung man geng sao or double neck pulling hand. Is it the same thing less semantics? Or am I trying to simply make the WC "recognizable" in the realm of combat that I am accustomed to?

Either way--over the years this epiphany seems to be working even under duress. That's a good sign to me since it was developed with a pragmatic system, having gone from theory to road testing and been refined again based on empirical data.

Thanks, for the terminology correction.

This is just a general rant not directed at you in particular.
I think of WC like boxing. I am going to show a guy a lot of stuff and he is going to find what fits him: Boxer, slugger, clincher, finesse kicker, power kicker, volume puncher, and on and on. There is a lot there. No one way is right. It's just ridiculous when people say, "WC is this because it is what works." Perhaps it is what works for you or your group? I find that contextually, it pretty much all works. I started WC when I was 14 so I was weak compared to the adults but faster and more agile. As I grew bigger and stronger, my WC evolved. Therefore, I know that WC works a lot of different ways.

[Wayfaring]

I can't remember who the conversation was with a good while back...Victor maybe...but we discussed the idea that tan, bong, and fook were really tools to use in the clinch. Not chi sao, not gor sao, but in the CLINCH as wrestlers, greco players, thai's and so forth know it to be. One could even make the specific connection that biu and tan could be used to pierce and spread through someone else's double collar tie, or redirect an attempt of control. Bong to remove a neck grab from an inside starting point, fook to suppress and monitor a neutral grip.

Agree. I view WC shapes flowing into clinch/wrestling as an augmentation to WC. WC's strategy in the clinch is to control, strike, pursue. Grappling arts is to control, take down.


It was theorized that the original intent of the movements was lost when people somewhere down the line simply stopped using it for fighting. Also theorized that like many other styles--it developed several tangents of sub-styles within it. But as time went on and it was watered down because it was no longer being tested, or further developed. Techniques were based on theory instead of reality and empirical evidence. No one ventured outside their doors any longer.

Over the years of working with WC vs WC, that captive training gave folks the impression that many of those drills "make sense" because they flow so well. WC was being developed as literally a chinese boxing form. (I even mentioned that some versions looked like it had origins that could have lied more with the spread of western boxing at the time than with ng mui or a bunch of monks in secret, depending on which history you subscribe to).

Great points. Whenever any martial art strays from the original intent of fighting, IMO it becomes dance, theater, a demo art.



But if you look and train WC in a less myopic (and ethnocentristic) manner, you start to see it differently. When you train against all fighters, in all settings, and with proper resistance--coupled with your own body type and stylist preferences, it works BETTER than it did with the cookie cutter stuff you see most people do. It works in a way that functions in full contact, and you end up in full control. Akin to how a BJJ blue belt knows all the moves a black belt does, but the black belt knows how to apply it against real resistance in a real setting on a consistent basis.

I have the same view.

Most BJJ blue belts under good instruction can apply moves against real resistance in a real setting consistently. Why is this? Because the average person when they get a blue belt have been through an estimated 1250 live rounds of rolling. Can we say that about most who have obtained their first rank in WCK? IMO if we can't we need to change how we are training.



My WC style then, has developed into a VERY close quarter method, and exists now only in the clinch range, with the low kicks now making more sense once you off balance the other guy. I have more control now that I've released the doctrinal crap that says tan is exactly here, and moves exactly there....2 mm more to the left. When you focus on the intent and the energy, you know have a freedom that allows it to function instead of governmental bodies that eliminate freedom to let it work for itself.

Does that make sense?

I agree that removing the dogma and doctrinal crap frees up the learning. IMO this isn't rocket science. If people would actually train live and fight with WCK consistently these are things that come with the repititions.

Actually, here's a challenge for those who like to say "that's not WCK" when viewing clips like this. Take your WCK, and in training, perform 1000 rounds of 3-5 minute duration, all live against resisting opponents. If you can, try to get 300 of those rounds in against fighters from other disciplines, like boxing, mma, mt, karate, tkd, etc. See what repitition teaches you there.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Actually, here's a challenge for those who like to say "that's not WCK" when viewing clips like this. Take your WCK, and in training, perform 1000 rounds of 3-5 minute duration, all live against resisting opponents. If you can, try to get 300 of those rounds in against fighters from other disciplines, like boxing, mma, mt, karate, tkd, etc. See what repition teaches you there.

Incidentally, that's about half as much sparring as I did during any one year of some of my more productive years of training.

[SAAMAG]

Thanks, for the terminology correction.

This is just a general rant not directed at you in particular.
I think of WC like boxing. I am going to show a guy a lot of stuff and he is going to find what fits him: Boxer, slugger, clincher, finesse kicker, power kicker, volume puncher, and on and on. There is a lot there. No one way is right. It's just ridiculous when people say, "WC is this because it is what works." Perhaps it is what works for you or your group? I find that contextually, it pretty much all works. I started WC when I was 14 so I was weak compared to the adults but faster and more agile. As I grew bigger and stronger, my WC evolved. Therefore, I know that WC works a lot of different ways.

I absolutely agree. Its the same way with any combat style? Karate, MT, Wrestling, MMA, etc. Fighters of the same style develop a personal style that will suit his or her tendencies. As long as you can make it work that's what matters.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I absolutely agree. Its the same way with any combat style? Karate, MT, Wrestling, MMA, etc. Fighters of the same style develop a personal style that will suit his or her tendencies. As long as you can make it work that's what matters.

When I first started, I was very much a counter fighter. I would back off use a jut and throw stiff leads or rear hand strikes. I got of a lot of side kicks in those days. If someone got close to me, I would throw them to avoid taking a bunch of shots. I had a pretty credible jumping round kick believe it or not.

Now I am very much cut off people. I am looking to make them trade. I like the clinch. I throw a lot of round kicks too.

[GlennR]

I can't remember who the conversation was with a good while back...Victor maybe...but we discussed the idea that tan, bong, and fook were really tools to use in the clinch.

Thats my take on it pretty much now.


Not chi sao, not gor sao, but in the CLINCH as wrestlers, greco players, thai's and so forth know it to be. One could even make the specific connection that biu and tan could be used to pierce and spread through someone else's double collar tie, or redirect an attempt of control. Bong to remove a neck grab from an inside starting point, fook to suppress and monitor a neutral grip.


Yep


It was theorized that the original intent of the movements was lost when people somewhere down the line simply stopped using it for fighting.

Im putting that forward as line of the year


Also theorized that like many other styles--it developed several tangents of sub-styles within it.

Agreed, and as you stated above, without a way to measure (fight), there was nothing to stop some of these tangents going of in all directions


But as time went on and it was watered down because it was no longer being tested, or further developed. Techniques were based on theory instead of reality and empirical evidence. No one ventured outside their doors any longer.


Agreed



But if you look and train WC in a less myopic (and ethnocentristic) manner, you start to see it differently. When you train against all fighters, in all settings, and with proper resistance--coupled with your own body type and stylist preferences, it works BETTER than it did with the cookie cutter stuff you see most people do. It works in a way that functions in full contact, and you end up in full control. Akin to how a BJJ blue belt knows all the moves a black belt does, but the black belt knows how to apply it against real resistance in a real setting on a consistent basis.

Ive always believed that you can "feel" a good WC fighter when you are sparring him. The best guys, as you say, control, the opponent in that clinch/pocket range without resorting to actual grabbing..... capturing balance and striking... its all there in tan, fook, bong in conjunction with the YKJM stance training.


My WC style then, has developed into a VERY close quarter method, and exists now only in the clinch range, with the low kicks now making more sense once you off balance the other guy. I have more control now that I've released the doctrinal crap that says tan is exactly here, and moves exactly there....2 mm more to the left. When you focus on the intent and the energy, you know have a freedom that allows it to function instead of governmental bodies that eliminate freedom to let it work for itself.


Thats exactly how is see it


Does that make sense?

100%

Great post!