Five ranges in fighting

[imperialtaichi]

I generally look at fighting in 6 ranges (generalized):

1. pre-contact range: this is really where the confrontation begins
2. kicking range
3. punching range
4. elbow range
5. clinch range
6. ground

While different arts tend to focus on and dominate different ranges, I believe we need to be proficient in dealing with all of the ranges.

Comments?

[imperialtaichi]

Oh crap, I wrote "five" on the topic line.

I guess there are two types of people in the world, those who can't count. ;)

[Gowgee]

While weapons can be presented at any of those stages as well, how about longer range for initial armed engagement etc too?

[imperialtaichi]

While weapons can be presented at any of those stages as well, how about longer range for initial armed engagement etc too?

Definitely. Any personal experience? Advices from your teacher etc?

[Raipizo]

I generally look at fighting in 6 ranges (generalized):

1. pre-contact range: this is really where the confrontation begins
2. kicking range
3. punching range
4. elbow range
5. clinch range
6. ground

While different arts tend to focus on and dominate different ranges, I believe we need to be proficient in dealing with all of the ranges.

Comments?

I definitely agree if you're not prepared to fight on the ground or standing you're not ready really.

[imperialtaichi]

I definitely agree if you're not prepared to fight on the ground or standing you're not ready really.

I don't like the ground, because I like to give myself the opportunity to run and escape. And for that very reason, I NEED to know the ground, so I can deal with it and get out of trouble.

I must admit tho, my ground work is very average. If you manage to keep me there you'd probably beat the crap out of me ;)

[stonecrusher69]

I generally look at fighting in 6 ranges (generalized):

1. pre-contact range: this is really where the confrontation begins
2. kicking range
3. punching range
4. elbow range
5. clinch range
6. ground

While different arts tend to focus on and dominate different ranges, I believe we need to be proficient in dealing with all of the ranges.

Comments?

This sounds like a JKD question..To me there is only one range,and that is the fighting range.If you can reach me with some weapon your in fighting range.If you cant then there is no fight yet. Another way I look at it is if I can touch you im in fighting range if i cant I need to move in. Whether one uses there knee,elbow,fist,leg who care. Fighting is fighting

[YouKnowWho]

The "elbow range" and "clinch range" are hard to separate.

- Judo guys may consider wrist (sleeve) hold as clinch range because their long sleeve Gi.
- SC guys may consider elbow hold as clinch range because their short sleeve jacket.
- MT guys may consider back neck hold as clinch range because that their knee striking range.
- Wrestlers may consider underhook, overhook, ... as clinch range because they train for jacketless.

The ranges is important. You have to enter the kicking range before you can enter the punching range. When you are in clinch range, it's hard to kick, or punch. How to enter each ranges safely without been hit is important. I'll call that "entering strategy".

[anerlich]

I agree with YKW but think I know where John is coming from.

Elbow range and clinch range overlap to a large degree. you can both grapple and strike at this range. You can strike on the ground too, of course.

[wingchunIan]

I'm more inclined to agree with Stonecrusher. If analysis like this helps you in your training then fair enough but for me its all a bit too clinical and a bit too 2 dimensional. The old range approach doesn't factor in other scenario specific variables like the angle, body weight, momentum etc and doesn't allow sufficiently for overlaps. For example the Wing chun jic gerk, chut sun gerk etc are / can be applied in a range that most would consider punching range. From certain angles they can also be applied at what most would consider clinch range. A boxing hook is a punch but when thrown correctly is a very close range weapon thrown at the same range as elbows tend to be, as is the uppercut, both can be thrown effectively from what many would consider clinch range as can elbows. Equally the knee to the groin seems to be fairly effective in clinch range as do palm strikes to the ears. However if you change the relative angle of the combatants without increasing their distance from one another hooks, elbows etc can no longer reach and cerrtain targets may no longer be available whilst others present themselves. At the same time if an opponent is charging in weight forward and chin down then no matter the distance incoming kicks are not likely to be a concern etc etc
Its horses for courses and I used to be a believer in the range approach but now I personally find it a bit redundant

[Matt_WCK]

I generally look at fighting in 6 ranges (generalized):

1. pre-contact range: this is really where the confrontation begins
2. kicking range
3. punching range
4. elbow range
5. clinch range
6. ground

While different arts tend to focus on and dominate different ranges, I believe we need to be proficient in dealing with all of the ranges.

Comments?

The problem with this approach is that the 'ranges' above are actually groups of techniques and not distances from the opponent. Categorizing them as 'stages' of combat is equally unsuitable as it implies a sequence.

I see these more as 'stages of learning' - a valuable way of teaching set groups of techniques and their applications at a variety of distances with there being only 2 'ranges' - pre-contact and contact. But then again, I spent some time in JKD so that may have rubbed off... although I do recall a Kuen Kuit which talks about always moving into the opponent with three techniques at once (two arms and one leg) which would kind of preclude the 'ranges of combat' approach.

[YouKnowWho]

the same range as elbows tend to be, as is the uppercut, both can be thrown effectively from what many would consider clinch range .... There are 3 stages in the clinch range:

Stage 1 - Both you and your opponent's arms are still free.
Stage 2 - At least one of you or your opponent's arm is not free.
Stage 3 - All of you and your opponent's arms are not free.

It's very difficult to remain in the 1st stage without going to the 2nd stage, and then the 3rd stage. Of course during the 1st stage of the clinch range, your opponent can move back to get out of the clinch range, or knock you down. If he fails to do that, the stage 2 and stage 3 will be followed.

In the following clip, we can see that the stage 1 and the stage 2 did not last very long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krfr2l-TCU

[imperialtaichi]

This sounds like a JKD question..To me there is only one range,and that is the fighting range.If you can reach me with some weapon your in fighting range.If you cant then there is no fight yet. Another way I look at it is if I can touch you im in fighting range if i cant I need to move in. Whether one uses there knee,elbow,fist,leg who care. Fighting is fighting

Fair enough. There are many WC fighters who adopts your view too.

[imperialtaichi]

I agree with YKW but think I know where John is coming from.

Elbow range and clinch range overlap to a large degree. you can both grapple and strike at this range. You can strike on the ground too, of course.

Yes, I am generalizing them into categories for discussions. There's a lot of grey areas.

[Frost]

For me I like to keep it a bit more simple,
Non contact range followed by
1) Stand up (not attached ie not holding your opponent)
2) Clinch (you or your opponent have a hold)
3) Ground (probably just as well Terrence is banned he would have a wet dream here lol it’s the SBG way!)
I like this definition because I have seen way too many good kickers land their kicks from what many consider punching (and hell even elbow range) I have also seen good boxers knock people out with hooks from clinch range whilst not letting their opponent grab them
I like to keep it simple and straight forward and then hopefully there are no nasty surprises

[GlennR]

For me I like to keep it a bit more simple,
Non contact range followed by
1) Stand up (not attached ie not holding your opponent)
2) Clinch (you or your opponent have a hold)
3) Ground (probably just as well Terrence is banned he would have a wet dream here lol it’s the SBG way!)
I like this definition because I have seen way too many good kickers land their kicks from what many consider punching (and hell even elbow range) I have also seen good boxers knock people out with hooks from clinch range whilst not letting their opponent grab them
I like to keep it simple and straight forward and then hopefully there are no nasty surprises

Yep, id agree with that. The range thing as a definition is too defined for me

[imperialtaichi]

Or
For me I like to keep it a bit more simple,
Non contact range followed by
1) Stand up (not attached ie not holding your opponent)
2) Clinch (you or your opponent have a hold)
3) Ground (probably just as well Terrence is banned he would have a wet dream here lol it’s the SBG way!)
I like this definition because I have seen way too many good kickers land their kicks from what many consider punching (and hell even elbow range) I have also seen good boxers knock people out with hooks from clinch range whilst not letting their opponent grab them
I like to keep it simple and straight forward and then hopefully there are no nasty surprises

Agree.

As mentioned before, I categorize the 6 ranges basically for the purpose of discussions only.

While I agree with SC and a few others that really it is just one range, some opponent for example would like to rush in close with you, yet others had developed effective techniques to keep you at a distance.

And as I mentioned many times before, ideally we shouldn't play the opponent's game and make him deal with us instead of us dealing with him, sometimes it's not as easy if he has very effective techniques to force us into playing his game instead.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Fair enough. There are many WC fighters who adopts your view too.

This is the only way to look at it in my opinion. If you can hit me, I can hit you, kick you, or whatever. Elbows are not used unless I have both my hands busy holding your arms or something. Also, I read somewhere that most fights end up on the ground, but I find that hard to believe. Most people are loath to go to ground because they are helpless to avoid attack from additional aggressors. Most people that do end up there are not trained for that sort of thing and if you have even the slightest ground fighting ability you have the edge. Not everyone is an MMA ground fighter you know. Jiujitsu has all the technique you will ever need for ground fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

we shouldn't play the opponent's game and make him deal with us instead of us dealing with him, sometimes it's not as easy if he has very effective techniques to force us into playing his game instead.
To be able to respond correctly with your opponent's strategy that you are not familiar with is very important IMO. In order to do that, you have to have some experience outside of your own style.

[wingchunIan]

Also, I read somewhere that most fights end up on the ground, but I find that hard to believe. Most people are loath to go to ground because they are helpless to avoid attack from additional aggressors. Most people that do end up there are not trained for that sort of thing and if you have even the slightest ground fighting ability you have the edge. Not everyone is an MMA ground fighter you know. Jiujitsu has all the technique you will ever need for ground fighting.

Why do you find it hard to believe? Take yourself out to some bars etc where fights are known to happen and watch. 80 -90% of fights end up on the floor but only a small percentage of them do so through choice. The fight normally goes to the floor because of lack of balance by one or both protaganists (often due to over committing on strikes or because of amateur grappling), one or the other getting clipped, or folks stumbling over objects. Of course alcohol also normally plays a huge part too.

[Bacon]

It's really pointless to divide too much between ranges especially when you get into grappling. It's far better to divide by tool range for striking and position for grappling, though there is some cross over between position and tool and also between grappling and striking. For example Thai clinch is both it's own range and a specific tool but it is also elbow range.

I tend to divide standing as:
Disengaged
Shoot range
Maximal kick range
Maximal punch range
Elbow/clinch range
Headbutt range
Body to body (either wrestling clinch or close Thai clinch such as pressed up against a wall or cage)

For the grappling the range doesn't matter so much beyond where the intial grip or contact is made so really it come down more to position and technique than range there. A trip may be done from clinch range but it's more important what it is than how far it's done from.
For stand

[Happy Tiger]

I also consider 'non facing' ranges to be important enough for classification as well, such as : the flanking range and/or 'blind spot' range....and the up down range (one standing, one prone.) for two. These ranges have special concideration in combat with their own unique references.

[SAAMAG]

For me I like to keep it a bit more simple,
Non contact range followed by
1) Stand up (not attached ie not holding your opponent)
2) Clinch (you or your opponent have a hold)
3) Ground (probably just as well Terrence is banned he would have a wet dream here lol it’s the SBG way!)
I like this definition because I have seen way too many good kickers land their kicks from what many consider punching (and hell even elbow range) I have also seen good boxers knock people out with hooks from clinch range whilst not letting their opponent grab them
I like to keep it simple and straight forward and then hopefully there are no nasty surprises

This would have been my response.

[Wayfaring]

Range means different things depending on the type of fighting. For instance, blades. Range is similar to hand to hand but different. Long weapons, like ball bat and spear. Guns have range.

In hand-to-hand combat without weapons, my views on range currently are:

1. Outside of range
2. Perimeter
3. Pocket
4. Clinch
5. Ground

I've read the BJJ ranges, which consist of 1,4, and 5. IMO they aren't strikers, which is why they can't see 2 and 3 ( I say they but I train this too). WCK from what I've seen deals with 1,2 and 3.

Perimeter and Pocket are my terms. I've heard Pocket in boxing/mma. I've also reads the long kicking range, short kicking/punching range. IMO that focuses on the tools only and doesn't deal with movement or strategy.

Perimeter is what I've noticed as the outside range striking area. It's where footwork is important, and it governs entry techniques. There you are forcing your opponent to move slightly to reach you, which opens up countering possibilities. If you throw 1 technique in this area the opponent has time to counter, block or move.

Pocket is the bridge range in WCK, chi sau range. Uppercut/body strike range in boxing / mma. I put the distinction there between this and clinch range because clinch involves restricted movement and/or a different strategy and goal. Actual distance wise pocket and clinch are about the same with a collar tie and an elbow grip. However in grappling much of the clinch is actually closer - chest to chest distance.

Clinch range is anywhere from wrist control to chest to chest. Why do I seperate out these 2 ranges? Because to me in fighting I can get in and trade in the pocket area, then looking to duck under a punch and take someone down I get to the clinch range where the fight is no longer hitting each other with short punches but the double leg vs. the sprawl.

[desertwingchun2]

Is this in the ring fighting or real world fighting??

[Eric_H]

IMO WC works best in the overlapped range between free striking and stand up grappling. So while we need to learn to cross over or extradite ourselves from the other ranges, they shouldn't be a main focus of training.

HFY has a few different theories to break down space, but they all come down to measuring leverage Vertically (Tien Yan Dei) Left to Right (Saam Sing Jong) and Front to Back (1/2 point and box theory).

As HFY folks we attempt to measure range in options of applicable body leverage rather than measuring by a set of techniques. In measuring range, really all anyone is shooting for is an answer to the question "what's a good idea to do in this moment?"

[Lucas]

Frost ftw here. I think this is seen as a fairly good break down, evidenced quite well in MMA competitions. Some of the worst kicks I ever took have been in 'close' range. Even once we enter clinch range, the threat of the ground is imminent in many situations, if you're talking no rules/limited rules fight. If you're dealing with a serious grappler, there is a good chance once clinch hits, the ground is right around the corner.

[desertwingchun2]

this is the only way to look at it in my opinion. If you can hit me, i can hit you, kick you, or whatever.... Also, i read somewhere that most fights end up on the ground, but i find that hard to believe. Most people are loath to go to ground because they are helpless to avoid attack from additional aggressors. Most people that do end up there are not trained for that sort of thing and if you have even the slightest ground fighting ability you have the edge. Not everyone is an mma ground fighter you know....

x2 ...........

If we are talking non-sporting fights I agree 100%.
Once one guy goes to the ground, either he gets kicked, bottles smashed on him, a little ground and pound, or other not so pleasant things.
Then the aggressor is pulled off and fight is over.

If we are talking sporting fights, I have no comment since I have never been involved with fighting for sport.

[Happy Tiger]

Range has a lot of overlap fer sure. Great moves like the 'superman punch' and B. Lees's fencing punch bend the range rules and add an unpredictable advantage. Many great surprise moves bend or break range presumption. Range isn't just distance.

[Wayfaring]

IMO WC works best in the overlapped range between free striking and stand up grappling. So while we need to learn to cross over or extradite ourselves from the other ranges, they shouldn't be a main focus of training.

For sure. In my terms perimeter and pocket are where WCK lives. Setup extends to out of range. Train your core strengths. Then deal with plugging holes.


HFY has a few different theories to break down space, but they all come down to measuring leverage Vertically (Tien Yan Dei) Left to Right (Saam Sing Jong) and Front to Back (1/2 point and box theory).

As HFY folks we attempt to measure range in options of applicable body leverage rather than measuring by a set of techniques. In measuring range, really all anyone is shooting for is an answer to the question "what's a good idea to do in this moment?"

Interesting point on leverage. I never thought of those concepts that way. Leverage to me is much more involved with the grappling game than talked about with any striking art.

[Yoshiyahu]

I summarizes ranges in means of what i can do to you...

If i cant punch you but i can make contact with a side kick...Then im in kicking range to bridge the gap with a kick.

If i am in range to where i can punch you but i can't elbow or knee I know not to waist a short range technique like an elbow an flutter you with lighting fast strikes and powerful hard blows. Once im the range where i can clinch i can also take you down, throw elbows and knees. With in the clinch range where i cant fully extend a punch Like i would like is where i employ more grappling techniques...

I focus on three ranges

1.Gap Range - Where i need to charge or rush in to close or bridge the gap Usually thats isolated to long kicking range. I don't want to limited to long style kicks. This Range I use Biu Ma or Toh Mah to gain ground.

2.Chi Sau Range or Sparring Range - Where i can Punch, Kick, and grapple at the same time. This range I can pak da or Jut Sau while kicking you or lop da as my intial means of closing the gap. This range i can use biu ma and toh mah as well as Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma interchangalby.

3.Toe to Toe Range - Elbows, Take downs, Knees, Neck grabs and control, Inside leg sweep, shoulder stroke, body hit, head bunts. Etc...This is the range where i attack relentless and fast with elbows and knees to defend my centerline or re-gain chi sau range whilst finishing you...