Sparring Frequency - Live Rounds

[Wayfaring]

On another thread we were discussing the frequency of live sparring. I made the claim that a BJJ blue belt will have a minimum of 1250 live rounds when promoted.

I am curious. Out of all the WCK schools that people train at on this forum, how many live sparring rounds per year would you say that you average per year?

I am not talking about chi sau, I'm talking about free unrestricted movement sparring. For measurement purposes, I'd say count them if they are timed 3 to 5 minute rounds. If you don't use timers in your school, extrapolate.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Comparing striking to BJJ in terms of hard upright sparring hours doesn't really make sense. In BJJ, the "sparring" isn't fighting. BJJ "sparring" is pretty much drilling because they don't punch each other no one is getting hurt.

The case could be made that BJJ, "sparring" is the equivalent of solid mitt, bag, and drilling work. Bjjers aren't gloving up and going at it mma-style.

[Wayfaring]

Comparing striking to BJJ in terms of hard upright sparring hours doesn't really make sense. In BJJ, the "sparring" isn't fighting. BJJ "sparring" is pretty much drilling because they don't punch each other no one is getting hurt.

The case could be made that BJJ, "sparring" is the equivalent of solid mitt, bag, and drilling work. Bjjers aren't gloving up and going at it mma-style.

Disagree. My BJJ rounds are every bit as hard as my MMA rounds. Actually ground work is more physically taxing. And in my MMA rounds, when it goes to the ground, that burns you out much quicker than in and out striking at range.

Actually, I've seen more people hurt doing BJJ and no-gi grappling than I have in MMA rounds.

The equivalent in BJJ for mitt, bag, and drilling work is drilling work.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Disagree. My BJJ rounds are every bit as hard as my MMA rounds. Actually ground work is more physically taxing. And in my MMA rounds, when it goes to the ground, that burns you out much quicker than in and out striking at range.

Actually, I've seen more people hurt doing BJJ and no-gi grappling than I have in MMA rounds.

Physically taxing and realistic/full live are two different things. I can do an ass-ton of burpees and get my heart up.

[Frost]

Most boxing sparring and MMA sparring isnt fighting either, intensity is nothing like what you get in a fight most of the time its technical not brutal, balls to the wall knock out sessions happen rarely and usually in fight prep.

As for BJJ guys aren't getting hurt id disagree most of the gyms i have seen get more injuries in an average week grappling that stand up sparring, hyperextended elbows, damaged knees, shoulders necks you name it, simply because the stand up sparring is dialled back, but grappling for the most part happens at or close to 100%

[Wayfaring]

Oh, and guys in case you are not wanting your name specifically attached to your answer on the poll for whatever reason, I left the poll as anonymous, so nobody can see who answered what.

So please don't be scared to answer, homey.

[Frost]

Physically taxing and realistic/full live are two different things. I can do an ass-ton of burpees and get my heart up.

yep but you wont get your arm broke or your knee damaged doing burpees, you will grappling

[HumbleWCGuy]

This idea that BJJ sparring or tournaments is equivalent to fighting needs to stop. Fighting is something that requires courage. No courage is necessary at a BJJ tournament.

[Frost]

This idea that BJJ sparring or tournaments is equivalent to fighting needs to stop. Fighting is something that requires courage. No courage is necessary at a BJJ tournament.

again sorry but this is stupid no one said its the same as fighting, but neither is the normal sparring session in most MMA gyms
at a BJJ comp there is a good chance you will get injured, at every comp i have been to the medics have had their work cut out, is it a fight of course not, but to say no courage is needed is just ignorant

[HumbleWCGuy]

Most boxing sparring and MMA sparring isnt fighting either, intensity is nothing like what you get in a fight most of the time its technical not brutal, balls to the wall knock out sessions happen rarely and usually in fight prep.

I know that most upright sparring isn't fighting. I am just trying to get grapplers to stop pretending that the sparring they do is equivalent to a "KO session."

I am going to have to call bull **** on your injury count. Guys get injured in grappling for sure, but if you are training upright hard you are getting banged up too. When you train hard you will get lumped up somewhere.

[Wayfaring]

Most boxing sparring and MMA sparring isnt fighting either, intensity is nothing like what you get in a fight most of the time its technical not brutal, balls to the wall knock out sessions happen rarely and usually in fight prep.

We try to keep it dialed back, but human nature being what it is I see more often than not a sparring round start light until someone gets hit a little too hard, then it escalates up. If guys (or girls) get an attitude or ****ed they let them go and they work it out in the round. So in that there is no intensity difference between those rounds and what happens in a cage match.

But in general, yes, the goal is to keep the sparring rounds what we call "speed but no power", exactly like you are describing.


As for BJJ guys aren't getting hurt id disagree most of the gyms i have seen get more injuries in an average week grappling that stand up sparring, hyperextended elbows, damaged knees, shoulders necks you name it, simply because the stand up sparring is dialled back, but grappling for the most part happens at or close to 100%

Truth.

[HumbleWCGuy]

again sorry but this is stupid no one said its the same as fighting, but neither is the normal sparring session in most MMA gyms
at a BJJ comp there is a good chance you will get injured, at every comp i have been to the medics have had their work cut out, is it a fight of course not, but to say no courage is needed is just ignorant
Pretty much in every full-contact upright event or mma, the medic has to see to someone, often both. Three guys out of 100 getting injured in grappling is hardly a fight. That's standard athletics.

[Wayfaring]

This idea that BJJ sparring or tournaments is equivalent to fighting needs to stop. Fighting is something that requires courage. No courage is necessary at a BJJ tournament.

Spoken by someone who has obviously never competed at a BJJ tournament.

ALL the MMA coaches I've trained with have their amateur and pro fighters compete in grappling tournaments, for the express purpose that it is the next closest thing to a MMA fight.

[Frost]

I know that most upright sparring isn't fighting. I am just trying to get grapplers to stop pretending that the sparring they do is equivalent to a "KO session."

I am going to have to call bull **** on your injury count. Guys get injured in grappling for sure, but if you are training upright hard you are getting banged up too. When you train hard you will get lumped up somewhere.

who said it equated to a KO session, please quote where this was said?

call bull all you want im speaking from my experience in MMA and grappling thats all, and i dont count black eyes, bloody noses or lumps as injuries because that happens in grappling and stand up sparring all the time: my last black eye came during grappling a few weeks ago, as did my last bloody nose im counting serious injuries which last for several weeks, sprains, knockouts joint injuries etc

[HumbleWCGuy]

Spoken by someone who has obviously never competed at a BJJ tournament.

ALL the MMA coaches I've trained with have their amateur and pro fighters compete in grappling tournaments, for the express purpose that it is the next closest thing to a MMA fight.
I am going to call bull**** on this again. It's a thing that gets close, but the closest thing?...Cough.... Cough... Bull $hit


Again, where is the courage factor that makes fighting a fight.

[HumbleWCGuy]

who said it equated to a KO session, please quote where this was said?


It's what I have been talking about all along. If you didn't know that perhaps you should back up and re-assess.

[YouKnowWho]

In Chinese wrestling, people like to wrestle 15 rounds daily. Some round may last just for few second. Some round may last for 1/2 hour. If people train 5 days a week then the number will be:

365 x 15 = 5475
5475 x 5/7 = 3910 .

If we take away vacation, sickness, and holiday, it's still > 2000. IMO, the 2000 number per year is still too low. If you are serious to train for your tournament competation, you will need much more than that.

[Wayfaring]

I am going to call bull**** on this again. It's a thing that gets close, but the closest thing?...Cough.... Cough... Bull $hit


Again, where is the courage factor that makes fighting a fight.

So let me see, am I going to believe you, or am I going to believe multiple MMA coaches and my own experience? Believe me, I can smell where the bull$h1t is coming from. It's coming from the critic on the internet who doesn't compete.

I compete in BJJ. I don't have an MMA fight yet, but train with pros and amateurs.

I could say that for me, it takes courage every time I step into a ring or onto a mat to compete. I am around MMA competitions all the time and support my teammates in them. I don't feel it would be a substantially different amount of courage to do that than it does to do what I do now. My teammates compete in both, and express to me it's not much different.

But I'm sure the one sarcastic guy on the internet with the hilarious name (HumbleWCGuy) who is about as far from humble as you can get knows a lot more.

Tell you what. Why don't you go do both - a MMA fight, and a BJJ competition at white belt or submission grappling competition, then come back and comment on this. Until then, you can just look up Teddy Roosevelt's famous quote for yourself on this.

[Wayfaring]

In Chinese wrestling, people like to wrestle 15 rounds daily. Some round may last just for few second. Some round may last for 1/2 hour. If people train 5 days a week then the number will be:

365 x 15 = 5475
5475 x 5/7 = 3910 .

If we take away vacation, sickness, and holiday, it's still > 2000. IMO, the 2000 number per year is still too low. If you are serious to train for your tournament competation, you will need much more than that.

I'm sure you are right. But right now the poll is split at both ends of the spectrum. I'm sure also that many people on this forum are going to pretend to ignore this thread because their number is in the 0-50 bucket, hovering around 0 and don't want to talk about it.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, people have to "enjoy" their sparring/wrestling. If you

- punch your opponent on his head,
- block a punch from him,
- throw him to the ground,
- prevent him from taking you down,
- ...

you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights, you are on the right training path with the correct attitude. Sometime even money won't be able to buy the "fun" that you get out of your sparring/wrestling.

When you are still young, you should spar/wrestle as often as you can to build up your combat experience. When you get old, you will have all the time in the world to develop your "snake engine" and "transform".

[HumbleWCGuy]

So let me see, am I going to believe you, or am I going to believe multiple MMA coaches and my own experience? Believe me, I can smell where the bull$h1t is coming from. It's coming from the critic on the internet who doesn't compete.

I compete in BJJ. I don't have an MMA fight yet, but train with pros and amateurs.

I could say that for me, it takes courage every time I step into a ring or onto a mat to compete. I am around MMA competitions all the time and support my teammates in them. I don't feel it would be a substantially different amount of courage to do that than it does to do what I do now. My teammates compete in both, and express to me it's not much different.

But I'm sure the one sarcastic guy on the internet with the hilarious name (HumbleWCGuy) who is about as far from humble as you can get knows a lot more.

Tell you what. Why don't you go do both - a MMA fight, and a BJJ competition at white belt or submission grappling competition, then come back and comment on this. Until then, you can just look up Teddy Roosevelt's famous quote for yourself on this.

Are you T.Niehoff posing as someone else? You hang around fighters so you are a fighter? Is that it? LOL. I need to compete in a submission grappling tournament to know that it isn't fighting? Only in the case that I am humoring someone who has never fought or I am throwing out the term loosely would I call any pure grappling tournament a fight.



Edit: You might as well call mitt and bag sessions fights.

[Marcelo-RJ]

I've been into Moy Yat's VT, Leung Ting's WT and Benny Meng's + Garrett Gee's HFY for 7 years and none of my Wing Chun teachers emphasized sparring. Being more specific, I did not even a single sparring session under their eyes.

In my previous Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin, as well as in my current Choy Lee Fut experience, sparring was/is a "sine qua non" condition of training.

[JPinAZ]

Are you T.Niehoff posing as someone else? You hang around fighters so you are a fighter? Is that it? LOL. I need to compete in a submission grappling tournament to know that it isn't fighting? Only in the case that I am humoring someone who has never fought or I am throwing out the term loosely would I call any pure grappling tournament a fight.

Edit: You might as well call mitt and bag sessions fights.

Actually, I believe every word Dave/Wayfaring is saying. I've known him for a long time and I've never known him to be one to lie or exagerate. Like he said, he trains at a great gym with top level instructors and training partners that are at both amateurs and pro level. Why would you think he doesn't get in there and mix it up with them if he says he does?

Instead of this constant bickering with him behind your keyboard, why not take his advice and go do what he mentioned then come back and give us your report and see if your views are the same?
I mean, how much acutally competing/fighting have you personally done? Are you speaking from actual experience like he his, or just theorizing out your a-hole? (which is unfortunately getting more and more common for a many of WC'rs). He speaks from experience from many hours/years training on the matt - do you? ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've been into Moy Yat's VT, Leung Ting's WT and Benny Meng's + Garrett Gee's HFY for 7 years and none of my Wing Chun teachers emphasized sparring. Being more specific, I did not even a single sparring session under their eyes.

In my previous Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin, as well as in my current Choy Lee Fut experience, sparring was/is a "sine qua non" condition of training.

Truth be told, that is pretty typical of any school trying to turn a profit. It's hard to get a group of people who will voluntarily spar multiple hours per week, hard or otherwise.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Actually, I believe every word Dave/Wayfaring is saying. I've known him for a long time and I've never known him to be one to lie or exagerate. Dave trains at a great gym with top level instructors and trianing partners at both ameture and pro level. Why would you think he doesn't get in there and mix it up with them if he says he does?

Instead of this constant bickering with him, why not take his advice and go do what he mentioned then come back and see if your views are the same?

How much acutally competing have you personally done? Are you speaking from actual experience like he his or just theorizing out your a-hole? (which is unfortunately getting more and more common for a many of WC'rs). He speaks from experience, do you? ;)

I don't discount that he trains at a great place. I just discount his assessment. I have had about 15 or so full contact fights. Unfortunately, they are undocumented because my state did not regulate kickboxing until late in the 90's if I am not mistaken.

As far as you J... I am pretty sure that you haven't done a **** thing so butt out. As for Dave, Wayfaring, knowing some guys who do and doing yourself are two different things. Let's not pretend that they are the same.


If you guys want to gobble each other's ****s and pretend that I have no fighting experience and that you guys are bad asses for knowing a few decent pro-fighters at your gym, go ahead but the truth is the truth irrespective of what B.S. you want to spew.

[JPinAZ]

I've been into Moy Yat's VT, Leung Ting's WT and Benny Meng's + Garrett Gee's HFY for 7 years and none of my Wing Chun teachers emphasized sparring. Being more specific, I did not even a single sparring session under their eyes.

In my previous Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin, as well as in my current Choy Lee Fut experience, sparring was/is a "sine qua non" condition of training.

While I think Sparring is a VERY important part of one's trianing, IMO sparring isn't anything so unique or difficult to figure out that you need a sifu to teach you much beyond basics, and my years of boxing has given me a good base for that anyway. My sifus have always told me that I need to mix it up with as many people as I can to gain experience, from there it's up to me, yeah?

But being a long distance learner myself like you were, I wouldn't want my Sifu to waste the precious time I have with him watching me 'spar' when I'd rather he focus on system level knowledge and training. That doesn't mean he doesn't test my hands and skills every time I see him, which he does often and is much more valubale to me (and I believe he's done with you as well). I can spar all I want when he's gone ;)

[JPinAZ]

I don't discount that he trains at a great place. I just discount his assessment. I have had about 15 or so full contact fights. Unfortunately, they are undocumented because my state did not regulate kickboxing until late in the 90's if I am not mistaken.

As far as you J... I am pretty sure that you haven't done a **** thing so butt out. As for Dave, Wayfaring, knowing some guys who do and doing yourself are two different things. Let's not pretend that they are the same.

If you guys want to gobble each other's ****s and pretend that I have no fighting experience and that you guys are bad asses for knowing a few decent pro-fighters at your gym, go ahead but the truth is the truth irrespective of what B.S. you want to spew.

You can stop with your pathetic assumptions and I never made any assumptions about your experience, nor mentioned anything about mine, I just asked you some very simple questions. Apparently they must have struck a nerve, or made you realize I was on to something that hits close to home or you wouldn't be getting so upset. ;)

I'm starting to thing you're nothing more than a troll, so I'm not going any further down this road with you.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You can stop with your pathetic assumptions and I never made any assumptions about your experiencen, nor mentioned anything about mine mine, I just asked you some very simple questions. Apparently they must have struck a nerve, or made you realize I was on to something that hits close to home or you wouldn't be getting so upset. ;)
Yet you are doing exactly what I said you would. It's inevitable that you have to live in denial. Otherwise, you would drop everything and train legitimately.


I'm starting to thing you're nothing more than a troll, so I'm not going any further down this road with you.
Honestly, if you never spoke to me, I would be fine with that. I have never noticed a post of your or Wayfaring that I had found any value in. You both talk a lot of cliche, but that is about it.

[desertwingchun2]

Just my opinion but I think there is a big difference between "real world" fighting and fighting for sport.

Fighting for sport is kind of like when your cousin gets wasted at a family party and smarts off to your nana or aunty. Then you have to "fight" him to shut him up because he's wasted and won't listen. You knock him around but still refrain a little.

Real world fighting is different in that same party type atmosphere but the guy spouting off is a stranger or ex-husband. In this case you get him out front, beat the Sh!t out of him and throw him in the back of someones truck when he is unconscious.

I think that's the real difference.

[GlennR]

I voted 100-500 as you can only go on the year you are in ,and ive had a ton of injuries this year. Id normally be around 1000 a year in a good year

Speaking of injury, something not mentioned is age. Ive just turned 47 and whilst i can generally go with the younger guys, common sense has to be applied in the case of frequency and intensity when it comes to sparring..... otherwise you have a year like me! lol

[GlennR]

Again, where is the courage factor that makes fighting a fight.

You have got to be joking.

[Wayfaring]

I don't discount that he trains at a great place. I just discount his assessment. I have had about 15 or so full contact fights. Unfortunately, they are undocumented because my state did not regulate kickboxing until late in the 90's if I am not mistaken.

Yeah whatever. I did full contact kickboxing matches in the 80's too. That is so far from today's MMA it's not funny. Guess who smells the bull$h1t now? Correct.


If you guys want to gobble each other's ****s and pretend that I have no fighting experience and that you guys are bad asses for knowing a few decent pro-fighters at your gym, go ahead but the truth is the truth irrespective of what B.S. you want to spew.

I highly doubt your fighting experience if you say today's grappling competitions require no courage. My last competitive match I gave up 90 lbs.

And get this straight. I didn't say I "know a few decent pro fighters at my gym". I said I train with pro fighters and spar with them during their fight preparations to help get them ready for MMA matches. I participate in the hard sparring rounds there. My age is a little on up there to take a MMA fight myself, but you never know. Almost all fighters at my age are retired.

And no, I don't think I'm a bad-ass. Having to work your way up in a mma team from sparring with the featherweights and the girls to your own weight class kind of kills that attitude off real quick. But putting in that kind of work helps me identify BS when I hear it.

[Wayfaring]

Are you T.Niehoff posing as someone else? You hang around fighters so you are a fighter? Is that it? LOL. I need to compete in a submission grappling tournament to know that it isn't fighting? Only in the case that I am humoring someone who has never fought or I am throwing out the term loosely would I call any pure grappling tournament a fight.



Edit: You might as well call mitt and bag sessions fights.

You are dense. Yes a submission grappling tournament is a fight. You train the same way cardio. You cut weight the same way. Actually in some ways it's harder as you don't know who your opponent is going to be, so can't prepare specifically for them. There is the same intensity with people going hard enough to injure you easily. My last competitive match I gave up 90 lbs. I would never have to do that in a MMA fight. This is why my MMA coaches tell all the fighters they should compete in sub grappling tournaments. But we should believe you instead of them, right?

I saw more injuries at my last grappling competition than I saw with our fight team in their last fights.

But again, even if I believe you, your experience in the matter is little to none. In the time where you say you had all your fights, point fighting tournaments were what was popular. I did those too. They were more tag matches.

No, I am not Terence. But I'll give you the same advice he would - you don't even need to compete. Just trot on down to a good tough grappling school and voice your opinions on how what they do isn't a fight, then have a fun time with the welcoming committee reception you get. Oh, and a lot of tough grappling schools will still do the "Gracie Challenge" with you so you can try and strike with them if you want. After you get done, then I'll accept your opinion on whether or not submission grappling consists of a fight.

Now can we stop with derailing this thread which I made for the purpose of talking with people about sparring? Yes sparring rounds for the ground are different from full mma rounds. But they are not easier.

[Wayfaring]

Just my opinion but I think there is a big difference between "real world" fighting and fighting for sport.


Sport fighting means you are going to face a skilled opponent. "Real world" fighting that seldom is the case. However, you won't have your opponent's friend go get a gun out of his car and shoot you if you're winning in a sport fight. (Yes that happened to family friends).

[Wayfaring]

you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights, you are on the right training path with the correct attitude. Sometime even money won't be able to buy the "fun" that you get out of your sparring/wrestling.


I agree with you. I get a lot out of sparring sessions. It keeps me young and in shape and more able to chase the little lady around the house. :D

[Wayfaring]

I've been into Moy Yat's VT, Leung Ting's WT and Benny Meng's + Garrett Gee's HFY for 7 years and none of my Wing Chun teachers emphasized sparring. Being more specific, I did not even a single sparring session under their eyes.

In my previous Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin, as well as in my current Choy Lee Fut experience, sparring was/is a "sine qua non" condition of training.

You know, I really really wish ALL WCK schools would change their mode of operation to dedicate the last 30 min of class to 3 min rounds.

It is really really hard to keep it real without doing that. It is really really hard to not water down an art in the next generations if you're not doing that. People get warped and distorted perspectives of fighting and self defense if they don't do that.

IMO that is the #1 reason most traditional martial arts schools I see around are going out of business. They aren't keeping it real, and the public picks up on that.

I really don't want to see that happen to WCK. That's one of the reasons I contribute here, besides trying to keep myself up on the pulse of WCK as I get less training time in it lately.

But my fear is that it is too hard to change traditional thinking and when my kids grow up WCK will be extinct, or underground, like the first vietnamese kung fu art that I studied as a teenager.

[Wayfaring]

While I think Sparring is a VERY important part of one's trianing, IMO sparring isn't anything so unique or difficult to figure out that you need a sifu to teach you much beyond basics, and my years of boxing has given me a good base for that anyway. My sifus have always told me that I need to mix it up with as many people as I can to gain experience, from there it's up to me, yeah?

I really hope you guys generation will change that and incorporate sparring into daily training. Even if sifus tell you that 95% of the people in class won't do it unless it is part of your culture. But if it's in your culture and you know how to keep it controlled then they will. I've seen the littlest girls get over apprehensions sparring and within 2-3 years become amateur fighters with great confidence. It's a myth that your average businessman won't like that or can't do that.


But being a long distance learner myself like you were, I wouldn't want my Sifu to waste the precious time I have with him watching me 'spar' when I'd rather he focus on system level knowledge and training. That doesn't mean he doesn't test my hands and skills every time I see him, which he does often and is much more valubale to me (and I believe he's done with you as well). I can spar all I want when he's gone ;)

I totally agree with you here, and when I get up to sifu Gee's I will learn how he teaches traditionally as well. And then the guys will go off on their own and play around and do what they do ;)

[Wayfaring]

Edit: You might as well call mitt and bag sessions fights.

You know, one more thing for you. You're getting all sorts of mileage out of magnifying the difference between ground competitions and mma competitions, along with measuring d1cks and telling people to back off and re-assess.

You've had fight experience of sorts.

How do you train WCK? Do you spar? Does your school? Anything positive to contribute here, or are you just dedicated to trolling the thread?

[Frost]

It's what I have been talking about all along. If you didn't know that perhaps you should back up and re-assess.

you might have been no one else was no one else even mentioned hard KO sessions.....i personally think you could start an argument in a phone booth with no one else there lol

you have never grappled or done MMA so what makes you think you are right with your assessment and those of us on this thread that have grappled, have trained MMA are wrong?

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are dense. Yes a submission grappling tournament is a fight.

Spoken like a true wimp.

[HumbleWCGuy]

you might have been no one else was no one else even mentioned hard KO sessions.....i personally think you could start an argument in a phone booth with no one else there lol

you have never grappled or done MMA so what makes you think you are right with your assessment and those of us on this thread that have grappled, have trained MMA are wrong?

I have grappled...I have trained mma. I haven't competed in either. None of you have fought. That's why you guys are so quick to rationalize that whatever you do or did is fighting. The reality is that you aren't fighting, haven't fought, and never will. I will return to this board in ten years, and you will be asserting the same crap.

You can live in whatever delusion that you want. I find it hilarious.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are dense. Yes a submission grappling tournament is a fight. You train the same way cardio. You cut weight the same way. Actually in some ways it's harder as you don't know who your opponent is going to be, so can't prepare specifically for them. There is the same intensity with people going hard enough to injure you easily. My last competitive match I gave up 90 lbs. I would never have to do that in a MMA fight. This is why my MMA coaches tell all the fighters they should compete in sub grappling tournaments. But we should believe you instead of them, right?

I saw more injuries at my last grappling competition than I saw with our fight team in their last fights.

But again, even if I believe you, your experience in the matter is little to none. In the time where you say you had all your fights, point fighting tournaments were what was popular. I did those too. They were more tag matches.

No, I am not Terence. But I'll give you the same advice he would - you don't even need to compete. Just trot on down to a good tough grappling school and voice your opinions on how what they do isn't a fight, then have a fun time with the welcoming committee reception you get. Oh, and a lot of tough grappling schools will still do the "Gracie Challenge" with you so you can try and strike with them if you want. After you get done, then I'll accept your opinion on whether or not submission grappling consists of a fight.

Now can we stop with derailing this thread which I made for the purpose of talking with people about sparring? Yes sparring rounds for the ground are different from full mma rounds. But they are not easier.

Transaltion


I will have to start out by calling you names because you won't call me a fighter even though I never fought. The fact is that grappling is just like a fight minus the fight.

[HumbleWCGuy]

you might have been no one else was no one else even mentioned hard KO sessions.....i personally think you could start an argument in a phone booth with no one else there lol

you have never grappled or done MMA so what makes you think you are right with your assessment and those of us on this thread that have grappled, have trained MMA are wrong?

Just because you can't understand things in context doesn't mean that it wasn't what was being talked about. A large part of the of this thread is responding/crying about what I said so, I am going to say that it is what was being talked about.

[Frost]

I have grappled...I have trained mma. I haven't competed in either. None of you have fought. That's why you guys are so quick to rationalize that whatever you do or did is fighting. The reality is that you aren't fighting, haven't fought, and never will. I will return to this board in ten years, and you will be asserting the same crap.

You can live in whatever delusion that you want. I find it hilarious.

really what clubs and what level did you train MMA?
Im open about where i grapple and posted clips of myself in comps, ive also been open about my stand up record, some semi contact stuff years ago, some barehand chinse full contact stuff (when i was young and stupid) and ive posted which MMA fighters i have sparred with and help prepare for fights

now since you are being all chest beating and insulting lets throw it back at you ....either post where you trained and who with and clips of yourself grappling/doing MMA or please just stop being an ass because no one here who has been in MMA gyms and has grappled believes for a second you have done either

[Lee Chiang Po]

I noticed that a few people here do this between 500 and 2000 times a year. That is a lot of Chi Sao. That is what you are talking about when refering to sparring Wing Chun, right?

[SAAMAG]

I think those that have trained in similar ways, will have similar ideas. Those that have not may not be as likely to. It's easy to know if someone trains a particular discipline, what's the point in asking someone to show clips?

I have nearly zero footage of myself doing martial arts, and I've been training and teaching for decades now. I just never thought about it. Then again, it's only been in the past decade that everyone had camera phones in their pockets. That would have made things a whole lot easier to film on the fly when I was younger and fighting more often.

[HumbleWCGuy]

really what clubs and what level did you train MMA?
Im open about where i grapple and posted clips of myself in comps, ive also been open about my stand up record, some semi contact stuff years ago, some barehand chinse full contact stuff (when i was young and stupid) and ive posted which MMA fighters i have sparred with and help prepare for fights

now since you are being all chest beating and insulting lets throw it back at you ....either post where you trained and who with and clips of yourself grappling/doing MMA or please just stop being an ass because no one here who has been in MMA gyms and has grappled believes for a second you have done either

You posted a clip of you hopping in a circle. Also, we have been through this. It really doesn't matter where you train if you are going to train like a chump. You keeps saying that you have all this great training, but you have never managed to at least hop in a ring to beat down some garage trainers? LOL...

[Frost]

You posted a clip of you hopping in a circle. Also, we have been through this. It really doesn't matter where you train if you are going to train like a chump. You keeps saying that you have all this great training, but you have never managed to at least hop in a ring to beat down some garage trainers? LOL...
Did i i thought i posted a clip of myself winning a grappling comp? must have been someone else lol
so i take it thats a no on you posting anything other than insults? Keep projecting mate but no one is taking you seriously any more (if they ever did)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think those that have trained in similar ways, will have similar ideas. Those that have not may not be as likely to. It's easy to know if someone trains a particular discipline, what's the point in asking someone to show clips?

I have nearly zero footage of myself doing martial arts, and I've been training and teaching for decades now. I just never thought about it. Then again, it's only been in the past decade that everyone had camera phones in their pockets. That would have made things a whole lot easier to film on the fly when I was younger and fighting more often.

It's all about the projection of their own inadequacies and rationalization that they are/were ever any good. I go on breaks and come back to this board and it is the same 3-4 guys who chump ass around in their real lives and lay on the internet day in and day out to convince someone that their training is worth a flying fat babies ass. And, they will tell you anything you want to know, in terms of terminology, forms, conditioning, maybe even techniques. The only thing missing is the actual how to fight part.

It's just freaking hilarious.

[twistingcrane]

an hour of hard sparring a week is good as long as the other time is spent on good training...working your techniques, cardio, weights, forms, weapons...whatever it is you do. Working techniques on a partner even slow with low to no contact is every bit important as sparring.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Did i i thought i posted a clip of myself winning a grappling comp? must have been someone else lol
so i take it thats a no on you posting anything other than insults? Keep projecting mate but no one is taking you seriously any more (if they ever did)

Was that the clip where you displayed tremendous skill hopping in a circle?

Frost, I am convinced that any garage trainer with half a notion to stop your ass probably could.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Did i i thought i posted a clip of myself winning a grappling comp? must have been someone else lol
so i take it thats a no on you posting anything other than insults? Keep projecting mate but no one is taking you seriously any more (if they ever did)

Also, I definitely don't want your respect. You really don't know what you are talking about. I would be a little bit embarrassed if there were too much overlap with what we thought. Since, I know that you aren't going to ever actually fight, I would have to assume that I have really slipped in my understanding if the two of us were to agree. I would have to drop my career and start fighting again.

[Marcelo-RJ]

But being a long distance learner myself like you were, I wouldn't want my Sifu to waste the precious time I have with him watching me 'spar' when I'd rather he focus on system level knowledge and training. That doesn't mean he doesn't test my hands and skills every time I see him, which he does often and is much more valubale to me (and I believe he's done with you as well). I can spar all I want when he's gone ;)

I see where you come from. Anyway, I still think none better than Sifu to tell me what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong when applying, or failing in applying, a given technique in a dynamic situation. One who watches it from the outside will have a different perspective, and I guess my Sifu will have a better perspective regarding the way I'm using or not being able to use what he's teaching me.

The best advices I had on rolling were given by my Luta Livre teacher. The best advice I had on using Choy Lee Fut when sparring were given by my CLF teacher. The best advices I had on using WC in sparring were given by... by who?

[YouKnowWho]

I really really wish ALL WCK schools would change their mode of operation to dedicate the last 30 min of class to 3 min rounds.

I always used sparring to warm up the class. Divide students into inner circle and outer circle. Everybody in the inner circle has to spar with someone in the outer circle. After 1 minutes, the inner circle rotate so everybody will have a new sparring partners. Since everybody are all sparring. Nobody is watching, students can spar comfortably without worrying about making any mistake.

[YouKnowWho]

I see where you come from. Anyway, I still think none better than Sifu to tell me what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong when applying, or failing in applying, a given technique in a dynamic situation.

Agree with you there. My teacher liked to use "1, 2" to give instruction (he only knew few words in English). "1" is to set up and "2" is to execute. Sometime "1" and "2" are just 1/2 second or even 1/4 second apart. When my teacher said, "2", that's the time I should execute my move. There were onetime that he said, "2" but my body didn't follow his order fast enough, he didn't talk to me for the next 2 days (he lived in my house). Onetime when he said "2", my body wasn't ready to execute that move but I did any way. I missed my target big time. Even I failed on my move, he was very happy and talked to me all night about "lighting speed".

One important thing that I had learned from my teacher's coaching was, when I see an opportunity, I should take it, commit myself, and take the risk. It applies to my career path also and not just TCMA. Seeing an opportunity but afraid to make decision can happen to anybody without proper training.

[GlennR]

I noticed that a few people here do this between 500 and 2000 times a year. That is a lot of Chi Sao. That is what you are talking about when refering to sparring Wing Chun, right?

Not in my case, while i train and spar at a MT gym now i still use WC in my sparring as it suits

[HumbleWCGuy]

I would hope that no one would count Chi Sao. There are a lot of fairly live drills that I would not want to count either.

[GlennR]

9 people that do any form of sparring with over 500 views.

Yet put up "does qi exist" or similar and you get nearly 1000 replies... i think im on the wrong forum

[YouKnowWho]

When your opponent visits your home, you throw him a pair of gloves (or SC jacket), go outside, spar/wrestle for 15 rounds, and have fun.

That will be the best life style for all TCMA lovers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsNXLF5dOtE

[HumbleWCGuy]

9 people that do any form of sparring with over 500 views.

Yet put up "does qi exist" or similar and you get nearly 1000 replies... i think im on the wrong forum

It's not a well formed question. What is meant by sparring?

[k gledhill]

9 people that do any form of sparring with over 500 views.

Yet put up "does qi exist" or similar and you get nearly 1000 replies... i think im on the wrong forum

You're not the only one with that view ;):D

[GlennR]

It's not a well formed question. What is meant by sparring?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparring

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparring

No operational definition was posted in the original post.

Is gor sao sparring?
Is chi sao sparring?
Are we sparring when working various punching and blocking drills?
How hard do I have to strike for it to be "legitimate" sparring?

Did you even bother to read that Wikipedia page? According to that Wikipedia page argumentative debate is sparring? That page is better at framing arguments about sparring than explaining what was meant by the original post.

[GlennR]

No operational definition was posted in the original post.

Because there isnt one, it varies on the style, what you are trying to achieve and the experience of the participants


Is gor sao sparring?

What is gor sao?


Is chi sao sparring?

What is chi-sao?

Not trying to be smart, but those terms above, just like sparring, will mean different things amongst different lineages


Are we sparring when working various punching and blocking drills?

No, a drill isnt sparring in my book if the routine lacks any random applications


How hard do I have to strike for it to be "legitimate" sparring?

Light, medium or heavy....... all valid

[HumbleWCGuy]

Because there isnt one, it varies on the style, what you are trying to achieve and the experience of the participants


That's why you have to create one if you expect people to respond. Part of what I do is write surveys for a living and vaguery creates problems. It's not easy to write good surveys, I understand.

[GlennR]

That's why you have to create one if you expect people to respond. I part of what I do is write surveys for a living and vaguery creates problems. It's not easy to write good surveys, I understand.

Oh FFS, are you saying people didnt respond because they dont know if they are or arent sparring??

[jesper]

dunno.
Every training session should include some form of light to medium intensity sparring.
Depending on what you want to with your training you should also gear up at leat a couple times a year and pref more to really test your skills and mental level.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Oh FFS, are you saying people didnt respond because they dont know if they are or arent sparring??

That's part of it. Of course they know if they are sparring by their own definition. But they can't answer the question as it is framed. The other part of it is that they don't care to fool with the *******ery that occurs on this board.

[GlennR]

That's part of it. Of course they know if they are sparring by their own definition. But they can't answer the question as it is framed. The other part of it is that they don't care to fool with the *******ery that occurs on this board.

What exactly is so hard to understand in the opening post??


On another thread we were discussing the frequency of live sparring. I made the claim that a BJJ blue belt will have a minimum of 1250 live rounds when promoted.

I am curious. Out of all the WCK schools that people train at on this forum, how many live sparring rounds per year would you say that you average per year?

I am not talking about chi sau, I'm talking about free unrestricted movement sparring. For measurement purposes, I'd say count them if they are timed 3 to 5 minute rounds. If you don't use timers in your school, extrapolate.

And wheres the *******ery?

Mate, you seem to have an issue with anyone that likes to spar or even have a discussion about it

I dont see anyone saying here that theirs is the best or original (ala Hendrik and his 1850 stuff) so whats your problem?

[SAAMAG]

My definition of sparring is:

"The action of applying one's fighting system or art in its totality and in free form against an opponent who is doing the same with enough resistance and/or impact force to allow both individuals to get a realistic assessment of how well each individual has internalized the techniques and principles of their chosen system of fighting."

In short...the only difference between sparring and a fight is the existence of optional safety equipment and the intent to hurt or kill. Sparring is a measurement tool and as such certain rules generally come into play that will allow for both individuals to test themselves while maintaining a lower probability of injury. While that's the case if you're not making enough contact to keep things honest...the results of each exchange will not give you a true indication of your success in applying it against someone who actually does intend to do you harm.

[GlennR]

My definition of sparring is:

"The action of applying one's fighting system or art in free form against an opponent who is doing the same with enough resistance and/or impact force to allow both individuals to get a realistic assessment of how well each individual has internalized the techniques and principles of their chosen system of fighting."

In short...the only difference between sparring and a fight is the existence of optional safety equipment and the intent to hurt or kill. Sparring is a measurement tool and as such certain rules generally come into play that will allow for both individuals to test themselves while maintaining a lower probability of injury. While that's the case if you're not making enough contact to keep things honest...the results of each exchange will not give you a true indication of your success in applying it against someone who actually does intend to do you harm.

Perfect.

Now im guessing HWC will still find something wrong with it.

Question for you Van, you find your WC blends better with your boxing or you MT?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Perfect.

Now im guessing HWC will still find something wrong with it.

Question for you Van, you find your WC blends better with your boxing or you MT?

You are applying post hoc definitions.

By Vans definition, perhaps chi sao and gor sao could be sparring. That's not your definition. Honestly, if I were to compare chi sao or gor sao to grappling sparring, they might be the closest. In either, I am trying to feel a guys energy and check mate him. He can both have free reign to do as we please. Good drills can serve as a measurement tool. The simple truth is an operational definition would have helped.

Any intelligent person would look at the context of the question and wonder. If you are answering without reservation, then either you know the asker or you haven't thought much about sparring and drilling.


Edit: Let me add that there is nothing wrong with Van's definition. It just brings to mind different things that could be considered sparring.

[GlennR]

B
y Vans definition, perhaps chi sao and gor sao could be sparring. That's not your definition. Honestly, if I were to compare chi sao or gor sao to grappling sparring, they might be the closest. In either, I am trying to feel a guys energy and check mate him. He can both have free reign to do as we please. Good drills can serve as a measurement tool. The simple truth is an operational definition would have helped.

You've dont like sparring do you?
Hey, if arguing infinitum about "what sparring is??" makes you feel comfortable not sparring then you go girl!


Any intelligent person would look at the context of the question and wonder. If you are answering without reservation, then either you know the asker or you haven't thought much about sparring and drilling.


And anyone ,with even limited intelligence, would realise you'd rather sit here and type pseudo intellectual clap trap than actually have a conversation about the topic at hand


Edit: Let me add that there is nothing wrong with Van's definition. It just brings to mind different things that could be considered sparring.


Well im sure Van sighed a breath of relief that you approve

[SAAMAG]

Perfect.

Now im guessing HWC will still find something wrong with it.

Question for you Van, you find your WC blends better with your boxing or you MT?

I find that it blends better with the MT. Reason is because MT deals with that range more intricately than boxing does in terms of grips and pummeling. You can hold and strike in MT, and throw elbows which are a fav'. In boxing, it's technically against the rules to clinch, wrestle, or hold and punch. And even though boxers learn tactics that include "clinch work" it's more so the steering wheel defense to rest, a little offset bumping here and there, and generally just laying on one another relative to the more active versions of clinching in MT.


You are applying post hoc definitions.

By Vans definition, perhaps chi sao and gor sao could be sparring. That's not your definition. Honestly, if I were to compare chi sao or gor sao to grappling sparring, they might be the closest. In either, I am trying to feel a guys energy and check mate him. He can both have free reign to do as we please. Good drills can serve as a measurement tool. The simple truth is an operational definition would have helped.

Any intelligent person would look at the context of the question and wonder. If you are answering without reservation, then either you know the asker or you haven't thought much about sparring and drilling.


Edit: Let me add that there is nothing wrong with Van's definition. It just brings to mind different things that could be considered sparring.

Well...technically no...chi sao and gor sao wouldn't be included with the wording I've used. Not unless that's how you're going to fight someone on the street or in a bout. "The action of applying one's fighting system" is not the same as doing a sensitivity drill. At least that's not how it was intended. Even then, the part that talks about "...with enough impact force" also eliminates it given that I've yet to see gor sao done with people jacking each other in the face at 70% power. We'd have a lot uglier chunners out there if that was the case since none of em wear gloves during chi/gor sao.

Crap. I'm going to revise it now because I can see where one can make that assertion still. lol

EDIT: I changed it now. HAHAHA! Now tell me where you can make gor sao fit! Blam!

[GlennR]

I find that it blends better with the MT. Reason is because MT deals with that range more intricately than boxing does in terms of grips and pummeling. You can hold and strike in MT, and throw elbows which are a fav'. In boxing, it's technically it's against the rules to clinch, wrestle, or hold and punch. And even though boxer's learn tactics that include "clinch work" it's more so the steering wheel defense to rest, a little offset bumping here and there, and generally just laying on one another relative to the more active versions of clinching in MT.

Same, rules aside i find that the footwork/stance in MT works better with WC than boxing footwork (though that can vary from gym to gym)
And ,as you said ,that clinch range stuff just works great with WC

[EternalSpring]

500-1000 would be the bracket, but the number this past year would be way closer to 500.

[Wayfaring]

Spoken like a true wimp.

Sorry guys, I haven't been able to be around all day to trade insults on the internet with Mr. "Humble" WC Guy. I was busy competing in a grappling tournament, where I took bronze in both advanced no gi and purple/brown combined divisions, going after all the youngsters.

I'm just so thankful to know thanks to Mr. Humble that it took no courage to do this and that none of my matches were a fight. Who knows how I might have gotten mixed up on those points if it weren't for him.

I would have been back after that to post, but our school hosted a seminar by Carlos Machado tonight. He taught us all how to be wimps with much less effort than we were using before. And he promoted our instructor to two stripe black. Rolling with Carlos, he has heavier hips than anyone I've rolled with at his weight class. And he seperates all my limbs and I can't get them back.

So I'll put up a mark in my live round sparring match category today of 8.

And Mr. Humble better watch out. Because, although Carlos, Lee, myself, our school, and the 600 people at the grappling competition are all wimps with no courage, Carlos did work on Walker, Texas Ranger with Chuck Norris. So one little phone call, and Mr. Humble's moronic @$$ will get round kicked to Pluto. Because, as those of you who have watched "The Expendables 2" know, a snake bit Chuck Norris, then after 5 long excrutiating days, the snake finally died. And as anyone who has watched Walker Texas Ranger knows, Chuck invented sparring.

:D:D:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sorry guys, I haven't been able to be around all day to trade insults on the internet with Mr. "Humble" WC Guy. I was busy competing in a grappling tournament, where I took bronze in both advanced no gi and purple/brown combined divisions, going after all the youngsters.

I doubt it. If you did, it was probably at a local tournament against guys with no grappling knowledge. The one thing is for sure is that it wasn't a fight.

I love the I am so so busy competing and winning act. The fact is that you are constant on this board. I could go away (tending to my "big boy" career) and come back months later, and you will still be here. Nice try loser.

Edit: LOL, I figured it out... two people entered. Good job! Either way, win or lose you still didn't fight, and that is the whole point right? You want to fancy yourself a fighter, but you can only do that if you fight.

[Wayfaring]

I doubt it. If you did, it was probably at a local tournament against guys with no grappling knowledge. The one thing is for sure is that it wasn't a fight.

I love the I am so so busy competing and winning act. The fact is that you are constant on this board. I could go away (tending to my "big boy" career) and come back months later, and you will still be here. Nice try loser.

Edit: LOL, I figured it out... two people entered. Good job!

LOL - guy just can't give it up. Whatever.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I placed in twenty or more points tournaments when I was teen. I should start calling them fights and pontificating to people because I demonstrated tremendous fighting prowess because of it.... LOL

[JPinAZ]

Stop feeding this troll

[Frost]

Stop feeding this troll

good idea, wayfaring well done on the comp by the way

[desertwingchun2]

Way to go D!!!! Congrats on the tourney wins!!!

[JPinAZ]

good idea, wayfaring well done on the comp by the way

I second that - Good job Dave! And 600 people is an amazing turnout!
Please post up a link to any photos of the tourney if/when there are any. :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

And Mr. Humble better watch out. Because, although Carlos, Lee, myself, our school, and the 600 people at the grappling competition are all wimps
:D:D:D

I doubt that those 599 other people are trying to rationalize that they are fighters because they did a grappling match.

[GlennR]

I doubt that those 599 other people are trying to rationalize that they are fighters because they did a grappling match.

So please tell us how you train?

Obviously what the folks here on this sparring thread do doesnt "cut the mustard" as far as you are concerned, so go ahead and tell us how your training is superior and more realistic than the methods described here.

Enlighten us.

[Wayfaring]

I second that - Good job Dave! And 600 people is an amazing turnout!
Please post up a link to any photos of the tourney if/when there are any. :D

Check my facebook. I'm not posting up crap here. The numbers are average. Gustavo's tournaments in PHX are 700+ usually.

[anerlich]

I was busy competing in a grappling tournament, where I took bronze in both advanced no gi and purple/brown combined divisions, going after all the youngsters.

Congrats. That's quite an achievement.


I would have been back after that to post, but our school hosted a seminar by Carlos Machado tonight.

He did one at our gym a few months ago. Fantastic technique from a really nice man. Also had JJM in SYD about a month ago.

[anerlich]

Part of what I do is write surveys for a living and vaguery creates problems. It's not easy to write good surveys, I understand.

I doubt that even with your professional survey development skills you could come up with one that says that the majority don't think that you are a total imbecile.

Then again, no one needs a survey when you make statements this imbecilic:


No courage is necessary at a BJJ tournament.

you should change your screen name to "arrogantstupidWCguy".

[Hebrew Hammer]

This thread is hilarious...was high school really that tough for some of you? It must be frustrating to have this forum as your only passive aggressive outlet.

[Wayfaring]

All right then. Wrapping up the poll to date it appears we have exactly 9 people on this forum who spar.

Somehow that doesn't inspire the confidence I was looking for. Now maybe the troll / haterz call and response derailed everything, but then again maybe not.

So I guess back to your regularly scheduled content of whether qi exists or not, whether or not the guys in the posted clips are doing "real wing chun", and who really spent the most amount of time with Ip Man.

[JPinAZ]

All right then. Wrapping up the poll to date it appears we have exactly 9 people on this forum who spar.

Somehow that doesn't inspire the confidence I was looking for. Now maybe the troll / haterz call and response derailed everything, but then again maybe not.

No kidding.. scary, isn't it?


So I guess back to your regularly scheduled content of whether qi exists or not, whether or not the guys in the posted clips are doing "real wing chun", and who really spent the most amount of time with Ip Man.

Haha, good point! Now we can finally go back to the talking 'wing chun' :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

Check my facebook. I'm not posting up crap here. The numbers are average. Gustavo's tournaments in PHX are 700+ usually.

cool, I'll look it up there!

[Frost]

All right then. Wrapping up the poll to date it appears we have exactly 9 people on this forum who spar.

Somehow that doesn't inspire the confidence I was looking for. Now maybe the troll / haterz call and response derailed everything, but then again maybe not.

So I guess back to your regularly scheduled content of whether qi exists or not, whether or not the guys in the posted clips are doing "real wing chun", and who really spent the most amount of time with Ip Man.

i spar but seeing as its a wing chun thread didnt poll sorry :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

i spar but seeing as its a wing chun thread didnt poll sorry :)


Another unanticipated reason why people don't respond to these things. Perhaps people spar, but they don't feel that they are using WC per se. Hmmmm...


If only some one would have posted an operational definition. :)

[Frost]

Another unanticipated reason why people don't respond to these things. Perhaps people spar, but they don't feel that they are using WC per se. Hmmmm...


If only some one would have posted an operational definition. :)

well since its in the wing chun forum, and he stated it was a question for the wing chun schools here.....i sort of got the idea it was aimed at those doing wing chun....crazy i know

[SAAMAG]

If the term sparring is confusing...theres better thing to be doing that spending time on a forum.

[HumbleWCGuy]

If the term sparring is confusing...theres better thing to be doing that spending time on a forum.
It's not about understanding sparring. It's about having a shared definition of sparring.

When someone starts comparing grappling sparring to upright sparring, it's fair to ask what they are getting at. Often, grapplers aren't really clear on what upright sparring entails. It has been my experience that grapplers don't put much stock in the light sparring.

[Frost]

It's not about understanding sparring. It's about having a shared definition of sparring.

When someone starts comparing grappling sparring to upright sparring, it's fair to ask what they are getting at. Often, grapplers aren't really clear on what upright sparring entails. It has been my experience that grapplers don't put much stock in the light sparring.

really, ok then and this is serious as im interested in this; Are you saying that upright sparring should be light for the majority of the time, and that grapplers dont put much stock in this type of light sparring?

[HumbleWCGuy]

really, ok then and this is serious as im interested in this; Are you saying that upright sparring should be light for the majority of the time, and that grapplers dont put much stock in this type of light sparring?

I am not saying that sparring should be light most of the time, but reality dictates that you have to take what you can get. If you are the best heavy weight at your school, often that's about all that you can get.

[Frost]

Ok you said

When someone starts comparing grappling sparring to upright sparring, it's fair to ask what they are getting at. Often, grapplers aren't really clear on what upright sparring entails. It has been my experience that grapplers don't put much stock in the light sparring.So if you don’t think grapplers put much stock in light sparring, then it follows you do put stock in it and see a value in it that you feel grapplers don’t see. Am I right?
So what do you think grapplers are unclear about when it comes to upright sparring?

[HumbleWCGuy]

really, ok then and this is serious as im interested in this; Are you saying that upright sparring should be light for the majority of the time, and that grapplers dont put much stock in this type of light sparring?

I am saying that grapplers usually don't know what they are talking about when it comes to training upright correctly which is why a lot of guys turned to grappling. Either decent upright wasn't available or they chose not to take advantage of it.

The point being, grapplers will often try to overlay their grappling training as a blueprint for upright training. Sure, there should be similarities... Athletics's training is athletics's training. However, they aren't precisely the same. The concussion limits how it has to be trained.

Then of course, we don't like to talk about it but life is a factor in the real world. Through high school, I hard sparred a few hours per week. That's a load of sparring. Then, my good training partners moved on so my opportunities were diminished. Eventually, I started college. Because I had to start applying myself to my studies, headaches all day were not working for me so I had to limit what I was doing. Then 50 to 70 percent is what I had to do.

I have heard it said by grapplers, "I train hard all the time and I have more skill on the ground than a person training upright can develop." Well maybe, but in terms of upright, we all work with the same set of limitations so I am not really sure what those kinds of comments mean.

[Frost]

So you are saying then grapplers state because they train hard all the time, they have more real skill than stand up fighters because stand up by its nature can’t be trained at 90- 100% all the time simply because of the nature of the injuries received.

And grapplers are incorrectly equating hard rolling with hard stand up sparring because the dangers are nowhere near the same? And that whilst grapplers in your experience equate light sparring with not being useful training, the reality is for stand up fighters the majority of their training will be light sparring simply because of the nature of the stand up arts and the facts of life getting in the way?

Would this be fair to say?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Would this be fair to say?
I think that you have accurately understand what I am communicating.

Edit: It's why I am a little bit suspicious of OPs like the one here. Obviously, I am generalizing a bit, but I have seen these types of comments enough to rightly and fairly have suspicion.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Frost, I should add that I don't want to give guys a free pass on the hard sparring and knockout sessions. IMO, you can't consider yourself a credible upright fighter unless you have gone on some consistent runs with lots of hard sparring and hopefully a few fights under your belt.

As I have said, people should not have an instructor in an upright art unless they have fought at least one time in an open division full-contact event.

[Frost]

I think that you have accurately understand what I am communicating.

Edit: It's why I am a little bit suspicious of OPs like the one here. Obviously, I am generalizing a bit, but I have seen these types of comments enough to rightly and fairly have suspicion.

Ok from my perspective I agree somewhat with you (don’t fall over anyone) because I have heard this said before by grapplers and MMA guys.
But I will say the following: Anyone who has grappled for longer than a few years will understand the value of light rolling, positional drilling and the fact that you can’t spar heavy all the time even in grappling, its detrimental to your game development and leads to way to many injuries
likewise anyone with both grappling and MMA or striking experience understands that rolling is not the same as hard stand up sparring, as I have stated before on this thread this is my belief. I equate rolling with light to medium stand up sparring: What I consider light stand up sparring is technical work with contact that is enough to make you keep your hands up and ensure you are throwing correct shots but which wont stop you from trying new things or working on weak areas (usually done with MMA gloves for me), medium sparring I consider would be you are going hard enough to keep things honest (you might get a bloody nose black eye etc but that’s it) but where you won’t receive any serious injuries or are in real fear of being knocked out.
The majority of my sparring is light to medium these days, ive probably at the most 10 rounds if that this year of hard sparring (seen stars and been on the ground winded type sparring) mostly in kung fu and not MMA lol and about 120-150 light and medium rouinds with gloves (this includes both MMA and Thai/boxing type sparring, also included isolated sparring against a cage wall, or ground and pound rounds) . If I include kung fu sparring (where we don’t wear gloves headshots are pulled but hard body shots and leg shots are allowed as is grappling and throwing) that’s probably another 100 hours,
This I know is nothing much but im just a hobbyist these days having fun
I probably also have over 300 rounds of grappling under my belts as well, guess which I prefer to do lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

I would also add that if someone has legitimately put in time with heavy upright sparring, their chin will start to go. Then comes the recognition, that you just can't do is like you used to. Light sparring becomes more of a reality because you don't have much left in the tank.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ok from my perspective I agree somewhat with you (don’t fall over anyone) because I have heard this said before by grapplers and MMA guys.
But I will say the following: Anyone who has grappled for longer than a few years will understand the value of light rolling, positional drilling and the fact that you can’t spar heavy all the time even in grappling, its detrimental to your game development and leads to way to many injuries
likewise anyone with both grappling and MMA or striking experience understands that rolling is not the same as hard stand up sparring, as I have stated before on this thread this is my belief. I equate rolling with light to medium stand up sparring: What I consider light stand up sparring is technical work with contact that is enough to make you keep your hands up and ensure you are throwing correct shots but which wont stop you from trying new things or working on weak areas (usually done with MMA gloves for me), medium sparring I consider would be you are going hard enough to keep things honest (you might get a bloody nose black eye etc but that’s it) but where you won’t receive any serious injuries or are in real fear of being knocked out.
The majority of my sparring is light to medium these days, ive probably at the most 10 rounds if that this year of hard sparring (seen stars and been on the ground winded type sparring) mostly in kung fu and not MMA lol and about 120-150 light and medium rouinds with gloves (this includes both MMA and Thai/boxing type sparring, also included isolated sparring against a cage wall, or ground and pound rounds) . If I include kung fu sparring (where we don’t wear gloves headshots are pulled but hard body shots and leg shots are allowed as is grappling and throwing) that’s probably another 100 hours,
This I know is nothing much but im just a hobbyist these days having fun
I probably also have over 300 rounds of grappling under my belts as well, guess which I prefer to do lol

I am pretty much of the opinion that grapplers who haven't committed to a few years of hard striking probably aren't going to come to the correct conclusions about striking training whether they have an evolved view of grappling or not.

I think that is probably where I stand with the rolling. It is probably more like light or medium upright. However, those who are basically grapplers only seem to find that hard to swallow. It is probably a combination of the fact that they are buying intra-school propaganda and trying to rationalize why they deserve the title of "fighter."

[Wayfaring]

So you are saying then grapplers state because they train hard all the time, they have more real skill than stand up fighters because stand up by its nature can’t be trained at 90- 100% all the time simply because of the nature of the injuries received.

I don't know any grapplers that have this view. Roger Gracie doesn't. Robert Drysdale doesn't. I don't.


And grapplers are incorrectly equating hard rolling with hard stand up sparring because the dangers are nowhere near the same? And that whilst grapplers in your experience equate light sparring with not being useful training, the reality is for stand up fighters the majority of their training will be light sparring simply because of the nature of the stand up arts and the facts of life getting in the way?

Would this be fair to say?

Listen, all I was doing on this thread is presenting a basic general inquiry about ANY form of sparring. I guess reading my OP, I did exclude chi sau. IMO it's not free movement but more static. If someone does full free range movement chi sau then OK.

Light sparring is very useful, both in striking training and grappling. I wasn't excluding those sessions in my poll. In fact, if I had to gauge my MMA AND grappling sparring I would say in each, 1-2 hard sessions per week, with maybe 3-5 matches in a session, are as much as athletes can take for wear and tear on the body. Many of the rest of the sparring sessions are going to be lighter. In those lighter sessions you build repetition, technique, try and go for an approximation of the speed, and have less power. These concepts hold true for BOTH grappling and striking sparring.

[Wayfaring]

I am pretty much of the opinion that grapplers who haven't committed to a few years of hard striking probably aren't going to come to the correct conclusions about striking training whether they have an evolved view of grappling or not.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that those who haven't committed a few years of grappling training should probably keep their yap shut about it, as they won't know what they are talking about.



I think that is probably where I stand with the rolling. It is probably more like light or medium upright. However, those who are basically grapplers only seem to find that hard to swallow. It is probably a combination of the fact that they are buying intra-school propaganda and trying to rationalize why they deserve the title of "fighter."

So let me get this straight. Your opinion on a form of training that you don't perform is that it's easier than the one you do perform. Wow. That's a great way to build delusion. My opinion on training that I don't perform is "I don't know".

My opinion on grappling and striking training is it's straight across the board. Hard = hard, medium = medium, light = light. You can get more banged up in hard sparring sessions, especially before you learn to move correctly. You can get injured in hard grappling sessions. Either presents danger.

[Wayfaring]

But I will say the following: Anyone who has grappled for longer than a few years will understand the value of light rolling, positional drilling and the fact that you can’t spar heavy all the time even in grappling, its detrimental to your game development and leads to way to many injuries.

Agreed.


likewise anyone with both grappling and MMA or striking experience understands that rolling is not the same as hard stand up sparring, as I have stated before on this thread this is my belief. I equate rolling with light to medium stand up sparring:

I consider an average class roll and an average MMA class sparring session equivalent. So do my MMA teammates. An average roll in my experience scales between light and medium. However, both can escalate to hard easily. All it takes is one guy landing a little to hard of a punch, then retaliation, or one guy turning up the steam a bit in grappling leading to a scramble and a hard takedown or submission. The experienced guys try to limit that kind of escalation to keep things in control (except for designated training sessions).



What I consider light stand up sparring is technical work with contact that is enough to make you keep your hands up and ensure you are throwing correct shots but which wont stop you from trying new things or working on weak areas (usually done with MMA gloves for me), medium sparring I consider would be you are going hard enough to keep things honest (you might get a bloody nose black eye etc but that’s it) but where you won’t receive any serious injuries or are in real fear of being knocked out.

I can live with those definitions. One exception is I've seen a dozen or so knockouts in medium sparring with someone getting clipped right on the button.



The majority of my sparring is light to medium these days, ive probably at the most 10 rounds if that this year of hard sparring (seen stars and been on the ground winded type sparring) mostly in kung fu and not MMA lol and about 120-150 light and medium rouinds with gloves (this includes both MMA and Thai/boxing type sparring, also included isolated sparring against a cage wall, or ground and pound rounds) . If I include kung fu sparring (where we don’t wear gloves headshots are pulled but hard body shots and leg shots are allowed as is grappling and throwing) that’s probably another 100 hours,
This I know is nothing much but im just a hobbyist these days having fun
I probably also have over 300 rounds of grappling under my belts as well, guess which I prefer to do lol

Cool. Add them all up and you're in the poll.

[Wayfaring]

I would also add that if someone has legitimately put in time with heavy upright sparring, their chin will start to go. Then comes the recognition, that you just can't do is like you used to. Light sparring becomes more of a reality because you don't have much left in the tank.

That recognition for me drove me to the conclusion that it wasn't a good idea to keep standing in the same spot with my head in a static position where my opponent can punch me in my jaw.

This is why some boxers have long-term brain damage and others do not.

[Wayfaring]

I am saying that grapplers usually don't know what they are talking about when it comes to training upright correctly which is why a lot of guys turned to grappling. Either decent upright wasn't available or they chose not to take advantage of it.

Over-generalization that's mostly incorrect. A good percentage of the people I see doing well in grappling tournaments are pro and amateur MMA fighters.



The point being, grapplers will often try to overlay their grappling training as a blueprint for upright training. Sure, there should be similarities... Athletics's training is athletics's training. However, they aren't precisely the same. The concussion limits how it has to be trained.

Maybe garage grapplers and strikers. I just listen to my coaches, and depend on coaches that have real experience in what they are training, including MMA fights and grappling competitions.



Then of course, we don't like to talk about it but life is a factor in the real world. Through high school, I hard sparred a few hours per week. That's a load of sparring. Then, my good training partners moved on so my opportunities were diminished. Eventually, I started college. Because I had to start applying myself to my studies, headaches all day were not working for me so I had to limit what I was doing. Then 50 to 70 percent is what I had to do.

Sure life is a factor.


I have heard it said by grapplers, "I train hard all the time and I have more skill on the ground than a person training upright can develop." Well maybe, but in terms of upright, we all work with the same set of limitations so I am not really sure what those kinds of comments mean.

I would not make a statement like that. Skill is skill. I started training ground because I noticed holes in my overall game that were exposed. Tapes like the original "Gracies in Action" showing footage of the Gracie Challenge matches were an inspiration.

I do like that you can in general go harder on the ground without getting as banged up. However, that's just a sweat and conditioning factor. It means nothing as far as building comparative skill. It's just fun ;) Putting them both together - striking and ground is another barrier. You have to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Wayfaring]

I think that is probably where I stand with the rolling. It is probably more like light or medium upright. However, those who are basically grapplers only seem to find that hard to swallow. It is probably a combination of the fact that they are buying intra-school propaganda and trying to rationalize why they deserve the title of "fighter."

I don't really care to "deserve the title of fighter". My titles are probably more accurately "sparring partner" and "grappler", or possibly "competitor". I wear Mickey Mouse shirts to watch the UFC out in public, not Tapout.

However, I reserve to call hard competitive grappling matches in competitions "fights", mostly for the same reason the Brazilians have a phrase for BJJ as "the best fight". Yes, I realize that technically they are not fights they are grappling matches. However, the people I will allow to call me on this are my MMA teammates and other fighters, not people who did a couple of smokers in the '90's who like to mouth off on the internet.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't really care to "deserve the title of fighter". My titles are probably more accurately "sparring partner" and "grappler", or possibly "competitor". I wear Mickey Mouse shirts to watch the UFC out in public, not Tapout.

There is hope for you then.



However, I reserve to call hard competitive grappling matches in competitions "fights", mostly for the same reason the Brazilians have a phrase for BJJ as "the best fight". Yes, I realize that technically they are not fights they are grappling matches. However, the people I will allow to call me on this are my MMA teammates and other fighters, not people who did a couple of smokers in the '90's who like to mouth off on the internet.
You can believe any **** fool thing that you want, but that doesn't make it so.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I would say that if a smoker is no big deal then grow some balls and compete in one.

[Wayfaring]

You can believe any **** fool thing that you want, but that doesn't make it so.

My experience gives me an opinion. When you get some experience in that area, I'll listen to your opinion. Until then, you have a malformed and uneducated opinion about that topic.

[Wayfaring]

I would say that if a smoker is no big deal then grow some balls and compete in one.

I have in the 80s. It was a big deal to me then. Not so much now. I don't know what the future holds for me w/r to amateur MMA fights, but am not ruling one out. With the training I'm doing I'm most of the way there. However, not many other middle-aged men seem to want to take MMA fights (or enter grappling tournaments for that matter). The fight would have to make sense.

Apparently most middle-aged men like to drink tea, discuss chi, theory, and transforms, and argue about lineages. Most don't like to spar. I feel it keeps your blood flowing, increases your physical conditioning, helps keep weight under control, relieves stress, and overall keeps you younger as those years creep up.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have in the 80s. It was a big deal to me then. Not so much now. I don't know what the future holds for me w/r to amateur MMA fights, but am not ruling one out. With the training I'm doing I'm most of the way there. However, not many other middle-aged men seem to want to take MMA fights (or enter grappling tournaments for that matter). The fight would have to make sense.

Apparently most middle-aged men like to drink tea, discuss chi, theory, and transforms, and argue about lineages. Most don't like to spar. I feel it keeps your blood flowing, increases your physical conditioning, helps keep weight under control, relieves stress, and overall keeps you younger as those years creep up.

That's fair. All you want a fair match. I guess that I am not as old as you, but I don't look forward to the prospect of fighting too many twenty somethings. I may as well ram my head into a brick wall.

[HumbleWCGuy]

My experience gives me an opinion. When you get some experience in that area, I'll listen to your opinion. Until then, you have a malformed and uneducated opinion about that topic.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have in the 80s. It was a big deal to me then. Not so much now.

I am going to say that this either didn't happen or you got destroyed. My money is on destroyed which sent you into grappling.

[Wayfaring]

I am going to say that this either didn't happen or you got destroyed. My money is on destroyed which sent you into grappling.

You must be projecting. What did you say - 20 or so smoker matches in the '90's?
Just your terminology says it didn't happen. They called them "kickboxing" matches then. Also, the guys that were pros then didn't have many fights. I think the main guy I trained with was like 7-1 or something, had lost to Bill Wallace. So for you to have 20 fights that there were no record of magically to me sounds like BS.

[Frost]

I don't know any grapplers that have this view. Roger Gracie doesn't. Robert Drysdale doesn't. I don't.


Listen, all I was doing on this thread is presenting a basic general inquiry about ANY form of sparring. I guess reading my OP, I did exclude chi sau. IMO it's not free movement but more static. If someone does full free range movement chi sau then OK.

Light sparring is very useful, both in striking training and grappling. I wasn't excluding those sessions in my poll. In fact, if I had to gauge my MMA AND grappling sparring I would say in each, 1-2 hard sessions per week, with maybe 3-5 matches in a session, are as much as athletes can take for wear and tear on the body. Many of the rest of the sparring sessions are going to be lighter. In those lighter sessions you build repetition, technique, try and go for an approximation of the speed, and have less power. These concepts hold true for BOTH grappling and striking sparring.

chill i was trying to understand where he was coming from, didnt say i agreed totally or even partially agreed, and i know you were including them in this poll any sane person would :)

[Yoshiyahu]

When I say Wing Chun Sparring I mean a drill set. or traditional sparring where you are in close start with hands touching an one person intiates the fight an just go from there...With in the confides of this sparring. You utilize speed but ease back on the power...Because your not trying to knock each other out...of course you can still use head gear and mma gloves for padding.

But when i say Free Spar...I am thinking of starting at a distance and closing the gap into your in WC range...an from there once you make contact or intercept the bridge you go into wing chun sparring trying to press your opponent space and jam them so they can not disconnect or gain space or distance...But if a distance occurs you simply re-gain the centerline an bridge the gap again.

Both Free sparring and Traditional Wing Chun sparring involves both kicks, punches, palms strikes, sweeps, take downs, joint locks, stand up grappling...Of course there are no eye gougues or the arm and leg breaks or the magnificent dim mak employed...But you still have a large range of tools you can utlize ....

I You can do light sparring, and high intensity sparring with power dial back to not do injury to your partner...Dont hurt your sparring partner!

[Yoshiyahu]

teenage years we may have sparred several times a day so i can easily say 5000...Now i range between 50 to 700 in year...depending on the year an how many people im engaged with...

[JPinAZ]

teenage years we may have sparred several times a day so i can easily say 5000...Now i range between 50 to 700 in year...depending on the year an how many people im engaged with...

I'm calling BS on this. You're saying, as a teanager, you sparred 'easily' 5000 live rounds in one year?? So, you're saying you sparred an average of 13.5 'live rounds' each and every day? yeah, ok....
No offense, but I've seen your 'camps' clips, I am thinking your ideas of 'sparring' is far different than what most sane people on this planet call it anyway, so who knows.. :rolleyes:

[SAAMAG]

He may mean total. I've got about 46,000 rounds over the past 30 years if that's the case. :p

[Yoshiyahu]

I'm calling BS on this. You're saying, as a teanager, you sparred 'easily' 5000 live rounds in one year?? So, you're saying you sparred an average of 13.5 'live rounds' each and every day? yeah, ok....
No offense, but I've seen your 'camps' clips, I am thinking your ideas of 'sparring' is far different than what most sane people on this planet call it anyway, so who knows.. :rolleyes:

hell in my high school days thats all we did was spar...because most of my friends werent WC guys...i only had one friend who did WC he was the only person i can do chi sau with....Of course cats on the street call it boxing...Boxing, Sparring, or what ever we faught others all the time...just being boys.

[Wayfaring]

hell in my high school days thats all we did was spar...because most of my friends werent WC guys...i only had one friend who did WC he was the only person i can do chi sau with....Of course cats on the street call it boxing...Boxing, Sparring, or what ever we faught others all the time...just being boys.

I used to beat up my little brother a lot growing up. I guess I could round up my sparring sessions to include that.

I was kind of more interested in what people do currently in the context of training WCK. But at this point, anyone who wants to respond is fine with me.

[Eric_H]

I went through a period where I did 2 hours of medium contact sparring weekly, only doing hard when one of my partners was gearing up for a sanda comp. At the time I thought it was making me better - I know now I can take a punch, a kick, even get concussed and still fight reasonably effectively.

At my current school my teacher is holding back sparring until I have a certain skill set built, his logic being that anyone can "jump around like a monkey" you don't need WC for that. Once you learn the WC body frame and can hold on to it, then sparring can begin.

Not sure if I agree with the approach, but will update once I'm out of the first stage.

[Yoshiyahu]

I used to beat up my little brother a lot growing up. I guess I could round up my sparring sessions to include that.

I was kind of more interested in what people do currently in the context of training WCK. But at this point, anyone who wants to respond is fine with me.

With work and a girlfriend responsibilites i dont spar as much as i use too. Because i just dont have the time...if i can spar three times a week im doing good. At any rate Thanks for your opinion~

[Yoshiyahu]

Some schools go with that approach because traditionally it saved them embarassment if they had a practioner who just couldnt fight...some people are natural fighters. An add WC to their arsenal they adapt it to their fighting ability. I like the approach where you start doing chi sau and light sparring on day one. AS you learn drills, forms and other things you spar and chi sau at end of each class.


I went through a period where I did 2 hours of medium contact sparring weekly, only doing hard when one of my partners was gearing up for a sanda comp. At the time I thought it was making me better - I know now I can take a punch, a kick, even get concussed and still fight reasonably effectively.

At my current school my teacher is holding back sparring until I have a certain skill set built, his logic being that anyone can "jump around like a monkey" you don't need WC for that. Once you learn the WC body frame and can hold on to it, then sparring can begin.

Not sure if I agree with the approach, but will update once I'm out of the first stage.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You must be projecting. What did you say - 20 or so smoker matches in the '90's?
Just your terminology says it didn't happen. They called them "kickboxing" matches then. Also, the guys that were pros then didn't have many fights. I think the main guy I trained with was like 7-1 or something, had lost to Bill Wallace. So for you to have 20 fights that there were no record of magically to me sounds like BS.

D E S T R O Y E D
End of story bro. lol! Tell yourself what you want. You can't whip your way out of a wet paper sack.

I might have someone your speed. My niece needs a sparring partner. I doubt that you can take her, but it will be close. After all, she has sparring experience that rivals anything that you have ever done.

[Wayfaring]

D E S T R O Y E D
End of story bro. lol! Tell yourself what you want. You can't whip your way out of a wet paper sack.

I might have someone your speed. My niece needs a sparring partner. I doubt that you can take her, but it will be close. After all, she has sparring experience that rivals anything that you have ever done.

Sure. Why don't you call her from your mom's basement where you live and set it up.

[GlennR]

D E S T R O Y E D
End of story bro. lol! Tell yourself what you want. You can't whip your way out of a wet paper sack.


He just competed and scored a place in a tournament where people F I G H T, he trains accordingly to F I G H T, and it appears that your main skill level is your ability to T Y P E.

Id suggest that you appear to everyone here, from your poor attempts of debate and lack of wit, to be a K N O B.

Just thought id highlight a few key points that have bubbled to the surface since this thread started

[Yoshiyahu]

Sparring is what this about...wow..its over now...just a bunch of ****ing matches

[Yoshiyahu]

Im thinking about getting a sparring group together that can meet twice or three times a week!

[JPinAZ]

Im thinking about getting a sparring group together that can meet twice or three times a week!

you mean in addition to the 1000's of hours you claim to already put in yearly? :rolleyes: If you are already sparring so much as you claim, why the need for a group that meets 2-3 times a week? I smell BS.....