Link to the wc ancestors

[MOSHE]

For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

My answer will come after

Regards

[Minghequan]

I'm a White Crane Guy, not Wing Chun. My link is to the founder .... not in all that I do but by the virtue of who I am with and in that she gave rise to the art form I pursue. Having said that I am not teaching the"original" as I simply believe that it no longer exists as the art would have underwent a natural progression over generations of practitioners adding sometimes overtly often subconsciously to the art.

[YouKnowWho]

- My teacher's teacher married to his teacher's daughter.
- My teacher married to his teacher's daughter.
- My teacher's daughter only liked girls. The tradition broke right there. :(

[Vajramusti]

Moshe was talking about wing chun- not white crane or shuai chao.
Try not to hi jack the topic.

[k gledhill]

Moshe was talking about wing chun- not white crane or shuai chao.
Try not to hi jack the topic.

A thread hijack ? crazy talk on this forum ! ;) I dont even bother anymore.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is an interesting question. My sense is that there is a good bit of fantasy in most lineages. My instructor had some photos of his instructor who simply learned from his father, from his father, and so on. I don't have a sheep skin listing each person back to shaolin or anything.

Most importantly, I was also impressed by my instructors ability to fight and to teach others to fight. I could see that what was happening at the school was a legitimate fighting art that had been developed over multiple generations. It was the 80's and here it was that a school was drilling out of movement and trained all ranges of fighting (although, the grappling was admittedly weak).

[Buddha_Fist]

For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

My answer will come after

Regards

What value adds a certificate if the method does not translate into real and practical skill? Let the hands do the talking...

[MOSHE]

What value adds a certificate if the method does not translate into real and practical skill? Let the hands do the talking...

I don't mean a certificate!!

Just practise and skill

[Vajramusti]

What value adds a certificate if the method does not translate into real and practical skill? Let the hands do the talking...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe's first language is not English. He said nothing about a certificate,

[Buddha_Fist]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe's first language is not English. He said nothing about a certificate,

Written or verbal certification, what's the difference?

[Vajramusti]

Written or verbal certification, what's the difference?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure-hands do the talking,,, but in a net forum there are various kinds of discussion.This thread was about Ng Chan at the beginning-Moshe's sigung. Moshe was asking how peop;e have conceptions about Ip Man's original wing chun.He was going to give his own views later. One can have their own opinions- doesn't hurt to listen first. IMO

[GlennR]

For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

My answer will come after

Regards

An odd question.

How can anyone, in any form verify this?

Surely the only way one can verify that they have the whole system, regardless of what his or her sifu says, is if they can use it effectively.

[Vajramusti]

An odd question.

How can anyone, in any form verify this?

Surely the only way one can verify that they have the whole system, regardless of what his or her sifu says, is if they can use it effectively.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Glenn-not so odd a question IMO--perhaps phrased in an unfamiliar way.

There are many effective ways to fight-each have their own dynamics and foundations,
It seems to me that Moshe was asking how those who think that they have fully developed understanding of wing chun specially Ip Man wing chun-came to that conclusion. Of course, I could be wrong.It's difficult in a chat forum to discuss conclusively-effective usage

The ball is really on Moshe's court. Chee has done a good job in translating Moshe's sifu's Chinese. There finally is beginning to develop a compendium of views of Ip Man's major students. e got a late start on Ng Chan.

[GlennR]

Hi Glenn-not so odd a question IMO--perhaps phrased in an unfamiliar way.

No, i get the question Joy, just not sure what he is trying to achieve. But hey, its a forum so lets chat


There are many effective ways to fight-each have their own dynamics and foundations,
It seems to me that Moshe was asking how those who think that they have fully developed understanding of wing chun specially Ip Man wing chun-came to that conclusion. Of course, I could be wrong.It's difficult in a chat forum to discuss conclusively-effective usage

Ok, i guess my question in return would be how does anyone have the authority to confirm who's take on IM WC is complete or not/
I dont think Moshe is doing this to be the "real deal" but hasnt WC gone down this path below?
As Moshe has, what appears to be and interesting lineage of WC, id prefer more discussion and maybe some clips/photos showing the differences he discusses.
But ofcourse thats his choice


The ball is really on Moshe's court. Chee has done a good job in translating Moshe's sifu's Chinese. There finally is beginning to develop a compendium of views of Ip Man's major students. e got a late start on Ng Chan.

Would a website, highlighting the different lineages take on WC be great ;)

[Vajramusti]

No, i get the question Joy, just not sure what he is trying to achieve. But hey, its a forum so lets chat



Ok, i guess my question in return would be how does anyone have the authority to confirm who's take on IM WC is complete or not/
I dont think Moshe is doing this to be the "real deal" but hasnt WC gone down this path below?
As Moshe has, what appears to be and interesting lineage of WC, id prefer more discussion and maybe some clips/photos showing the differences he discusses.
But ofcourse thats his choice



Would a website, highlighting the different lineages take on WC be great ;)
--------------------------------------
Yes Glenn- we can only give our opinions. There is no current papacy in wing chun but lots of noise.
We have gone down this path many times but the Ng Chan discussion is a relative late comer to the forum.

[Buddha_Fist]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure-hands do the talking,,, but in a net forum there are various kinds of discussion.This thread was about Ng Chan at the beginning-Moshe's sigung. Moshe was asking how peop;e have conceptions about Ip Man's original wing chun.He was going to give his own views later. One can have their own opinions- doesn't hurt to listen first. IMO

Don't see the Ng Chan reference anywhere here until you brought it up. Guess you are assuming that this thread is specifically about Ng Chan... Maybe, maybe not...

No issue with Moshe's English, just posing an honest question related to the thread's starting post. I have the general sense that in Ving Tsun circles the concern about lineage is bigger than the concern about practical skill. Not calling Moshe into question, but rather the significance of lineage talk...

[MOSHE]

THE GOAL OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE STYLE WAS ONLY EFFICIENCY

MY QUESTION REFERS ONLY TO THIS GOAL AND WHAT MAKE THE LINK IN PRACTICE
(skill and ability and NOT formal through a book .paper or A OATH)
WITH YIP MAN ,LEUNG CHAN AND SO...


IT CANNOT BE BASED AND OUR OWN EVALUATION AND EXPERIENCE ,WITHOUT KNOWING TO WHAT TO REFER ...

SO FOR THE MASTERS X ,Y OR Z ... WHAT CAN MAKE FULLY LEGITIMATE TO REFER TO THE ANCESTORS ?

[Minghequan]

Vajramusti wrote:

Moshe was talking about wing chun- not white crane or shuai chao.
Try not to hi jack the topic.

Hi-jack the thread??? :confused: No I was not. I was however talking from my own experience and view of the matter of lineage and in one (from any art) making a claim back to the founders/ancestors which IS the topic of this thread. ;)

I stated:


I simply believe that it no longer exists as the art would have underwent a natural progression over generations of practitioners adding sometimes overtly often subconsciously to the art.

I believe this can be applied to the Wing Chun way (or any number of arts) hence my posting. ;)

Vajramusti, a word of advice if I may, try targeting the actual subject matter and not individuals. Slow down, read each post, understand the intent of each post, then offer your thoughts.


Vajramusti wrote:

One can have their own opinions- doesn't hurt to listen first. IMO

It would make the world a much kinder place. :)

[GlennR]

THE GOAL OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE STYLE WAS ONLY EFFICIENCY

Efficiency or effectiveness? There is a difference


MY QUESTION REFERS ONLY TO THIS GOAL AND WHAT MAKE THE LINK IN PRACTICE
(skill and ability and NOT formal through a book .paper or A OATH)
WITH YIP MAN ,LEUNG CHAN AND SO...


Sure, outside of fighting, whats the measurement?


IT CANNOT BE BASED AND OUR OWN EVALUATION AND EXPERIENCE ,WITHOUT KNOWING TO WHAT TO REFER ...


Ok, but refer to what?


SO FOR THE MASTERS X ,Y OR Z ... WHAT CAN MAKE FULLY LEGITIMATE TO REFER TO THE ANCESTORS ?

But how can you? I just dont see how anyone can say they have the full, original system. Wether they do or not, how do you prove that?

[MOSHE]

Efficiency or effectiveness? There is a difference
IN FRENCH #EFFICACITE#



Sure, outside of fighting, whats the measurement? even for fighting



Ok, but refer to what?
But how can you? I just dont see how anyone can say they have the full, original system. Wether they do or not, how do you prove that?

thats my question, SO LETS WAIT MORE ,IF PEOPLE HAVE THE ANSWER ON NOT

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am going to say this again because it is worth repeating in a slightly different way. If you are wondering if you have the "real deal" or not it is pretty simple. You should feel like your art has been used in actual combat and developed over generations.

Even if you could legitimately trace your lineage back to shaolin or whatever, if you don't feel like you are learning what you need to be able to defend yourself in all settings that the art was designed for, your link to the past has been severed.

[MOSHE]

i am going to say this again because it is worth repeating in a slightly different way. If you are wondering if you have the "real deal" or not it is pretty simple. You should feel like your art has been used in actual combat and developed over generations.

Even if you could legitimately trace your lineage back to shaolin or whatever, if you don't feel like you are learning what you need to be able to defend yourself in all settings that the art was designed for, your link to the past has been severed.


the answer is not based on own feeling and speculation
its too much subjective

[HumbleWCGuy]

the answer is not based on own feeling and speculation
its too much subjective

Either you and others are taking your system, fighting and winning or not. You can take the subjectivity out of it. I suppose that I said, "feel," but your sense of authenticity should be based on some very objective occurrences.

[HumbleWCGuy]

A style becomes a style because somebody presumably fought and won with it at some point. If a lineage loses it's ability to fight, it is no longer connected to the past as a fighting art. It has become low-level aerobics.

[Vajramusti]

A style becomes a style because somebody presumably fought and won with it at some point. If a lineage loses it's ability to fight, it is no longer connected to the past as a fighting art. It has become low-level aerobics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are some differences in details with Ng Chan's wing chun- but both Moshe's sifu and sigung and of course si jo knew how to fight.

[HumbleWCGuy]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are some differences in details with Ng Chan's wing chun- but both Moshe's sifu and sigung and of course si jo knew how to fight.

I am not making any accusations. I am just making a general point. My belief is that a lot of WCK lineage is fiction. All that we can really judge is fighting ability.

[Vajramusti]

I am not making any accusations. I am just making a general point. My belief is that a lot of WCK lineage is fiction. All that we can really judge is fighting ability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot is fiction but one needs to know how to sift through data. Sure fighting ability is an important key- but this is just a chat forum. Can't take everything here seriously.

[HumbleWCGuy]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot is fiction but one needs to know how to sift through data. Sure fighting ability is an important key- but this is just a chat forum. Can't take everything here seriously.

Excellent advice. I guess that I don't know that much about historical research. I am a little bit afraid to get into it without some time to learn the proper approach.

I don't want to turn into the VTM... LOL Okay, that was just a mean jab.

[JPinAZ]

Is this thread limited only to Ip Man lineage, or ALL wing chun? I ask because not all WC practitioners are from Ip Man, my lineage included. The OP didn't specify one way or another..
Can the OP clarify what he is asking? (I'd rather hear from the OP not joy with his assumptions and thread dictatorship)

[Wayfaring]

For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

My answer will come after

Regards

Hang up pictures of Bruce Lee in your school and make up stories about nuns?

Hey, I'm trying. :D

[WC1277]

For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors ?

My answer will come after

Regards

Get to your point Moshe. Ng Chan learned under Ip Man, right? Many here are of Ip Man lineage as well. The students of Ip Man are questionable, sure, but if we use Ip Man as a reference what does anyone's current Sifu have to do with 'verifying' the ancestors???

[MOSHE]

I DIDNT WRITE WHO ARE THE ANCESTORS BUT WHAT IS THE LINK ?

yes others lineages can share their experience and perhaps have the same answer to the question

[JPinAZ]

"For those who considered to have received the whole system, can you simply explained , how your sifu have certified the link to the ancestors"

The link is the system itself. Can you produce the same results in your students as your sifu did and his sifu did before him? I'm not talking about "sifu X's way of doing things" but more "this is what the system teaches us"

The certified link is the transmision of the system as a whole from generation to generation. If you are interpretting the concepts/principles differently then your sifu or his sifu, then IMO, the link is already broken - You are doing your own personal style of WC. If the system stays intact, the ideas should not change and there should be no room for interpretation like this.

An example could be to look at a lot of WC today, even on this same forum (and sometimes from those of the same lineage/sigung!). We see a lot of different people dissagreeing and arguing on what is the 'correct' way. If the system stays intact, there should be no argument.
From my own experience, any time I have doubt, I can usually look at the system for the answer vs. asking 'hey, how did sifu show us to do that again?' (of course that gets asked too, but that never really give the clear answer and then I realize I'm just asking the wrong questions). And if my sihings and I have a dissagrement or confusion on something conceptually, most of the time the system can again give us the answer. That is the beauty of science behing WC, at least from what I've learned!
And yes, it also helps to have sifu point the way! And what I found is, his answers are not because of 'how he prefers to do things' or 'how my sifu showed it like this', it's always only to point back to the system and the principles/laws of nature.

Now, all that said, the tricky part is verifying what your sifu's sifu got and if what you have is the same. ;) On that I can only go back to what I said originally - if you can photocopy the blueprint of the system as your sifu understands it and pass it on the same way, the link is intact.

[WC1277]

Too bad a photocopy of your Sifu was never the intent. The system isn't designed that way. Follow the principles and it will become your own, to your specific body type, whenever it is that you become proficient in it of course. A good Sifu will be able to see two different people doing what to the novice looks completely different and confirm they're doing the same thing... hence one of the contributions to the western state of confusion...

[JPinAZ]

Too bad a photocopy of your Sifu was never the intent.

Why too bad? I think it's a good thing the intent is not to photocopy your sifu! The way he does things is his own style, and not always a direct reflection of the entire system. If we just copy sifu or his style, we miss what WC is really all about, things get lost, etc :)


The system isn't designed that way. Follow the principles and it will become your own, to your specific body type, whenever it is that you become proficient in it of course.

I agree, but again, IMO, this is just your own personal style and how you as an idividual 'use' or demonstrate the system. To then pass this on to a student would cause a break in the 'link' moshe referrs to and isn't passing along 'the system' - just one's own style and personal preferrences. IMO this is what causes all the differences and arguments we see today among WC practitioners

[WC1277]

Why too bad? I think it's a good thing the intent is not to photocopy your sifu! The way he does things is his own style, and not always a direct reflection of the entire system. If we just copy sifu or his style, we miss what WC is really all about, things get lost, etc :)

I was being sarcastic with the 'too bad' :D




I agree, but again, IMO, this is just your own personal style and how you as an idividual 'use' or demonstrate the system. To then pass this on to a student would cause a break in the 'link' moshe referrs to and isn't passing along 'the system' - just one's own style and personal preferrences. IMO this is what causes all the differences and arguments we see today among WC practitioners

You misunderstood or I didn't explain it well enough. My point is that the Sifu's understanding and principles are what really matters and a good one can see past the personal expressions and verify the 'big picture' of the student, so to speak. The one who doesn't get 'the big picture' is just going to try to emulate which IMO is the majority of WC Sifu's out there currently.

[Buddha_Fist]

Connection to ancestors... lineage... You can only go so far back when tracing the background of the training method you follow. The further you go back, the blurrier the picture becomes as not every relationship and every detail is documented.

Ving Tsun was developed by evolving over time, changing with each exponent. Early Ving Tsun versions were probably a far cry from what current practitioners train and teach today. Each exponent took what he learned from his teacher and passed on his interpretation of these teachings together with his personal experience to his students - sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. It suffices to look at your classmates to realize the wide range of skill and understanding that can be found even within the same lineage. Is it then worth to even spend time talking about lineage? Yeah, as it allows you to understand the historic factors that contributed to what you are learning. However, claiming this or that lineage as "authentic" (whatever that means in light of the evolution of Ving Tsun) is futile, as understanding and skill are not inherited.

Lineage claims are not so important in my book (even though they provide some background on what you may expect). I prefer evaluating Ving Tsun through the lens of 2 factors:

1.) The bottomline, does it work under realistic circumstances? Am I training attributes that are of value in a fight and that increase my chances for survival?

2.) Is the method adhering to the fighting strategies of Ving Tsun and the body mechanics tied to these? Is this done in a way that maximizes my potential?

Good fighting methods in general (boxing, MT, MMA, etc.) meet the first, good Ving Tsun meets both.

[Vajramusti]

Moshe is not formulating his question in a way that everyone would easily understand.While of course he is happy with his wing chun he is not being sarcastic... he has not been much of a participant in the forums. Some may have missed an earlier thread on Ng Chan --who did live with Ip man for a while and taught for him.

Moshe is from France but has settled in Israel.

There are many ways of fighting-wing chun is not the only available option. I may be wrong- but Moshe seems to be interested in the inter-related questions of how we are linked to a fairly complete version of Ip Man's wing chun other than name dropping and how do we know that what we do is "efficient".

I think that Ng Chan got a very good piece of Ip Man's wing chun- in a traditional way-personal instruction... but there are several others.Moshe's sifu in turn got in depth regular personal instruction from his sifu Ng Chan..Ditto for Moshe from his sifu.The occasional seminar was not the method of learning for Moshe, his sifu or sigung.

I wont critique Ng Chan's wing chun at this time-I hope that he can articulate his questions better
and receive some answers without the common sarcastic overtones that are common at KFo.
One hopes for something resembling a dialog..

[GlennR]

I wont critique Ng Chan's wing chun at this time-I hope that he can articulate his questions better
and receive some answers without the common sarcastic overtones that are common at KFo.
One hopes for something resembling a dialog.


Im of the same thought Joy, just wish he could be clearer what he says

[JPinAZ]

Joy,

Maybe it would be better to let moshe speak for himself - IMO he's doing fine by himself.
Moshe NEVER mentioned his sifu or the name Ng Chan (and not even Ip Man until much later after you started pushing it). Since he never mentioned Ng Chan, maybe it would help if you just stop 'helping him' when you might admittedly have it all wrong anway and could be viewed as further confusing and derailing the thread yourself with all your assumptions.

[Vajramusti]

Earlier in the thread-Moshe speaks for himself-note the reference to Ip Man etc:

Old Yesterday, 11:04 PM
MOSHE MOSHE is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Exclamation My question
THE GOAL OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE STYLE WAS ONLY EFFICIENCY

MY QUESTION REFERS ONLY TO THIS GOAL AND WHAT MAKE THE LINK IN PRACTICE
(skill and ability and NOT formal through a book .paper or A OATH)
WITH YIP MAN ,LEUNG CHAN AND SO...


IT CANNOT BE BASED AND OUR OWN EVALUATION AND EXPERIENCE ,WITHOUT KNOWING TO WHAT TO REFER ...

SO FOR THE MASTERS X ,Y OR Z ... WHAT CAN MAKE FULLY LEGITIMATE TO REFER TO THE ANCESTORS ?

[nasmedicine]

too bad a photocopy of your sifu was never the intent. The system isn't designed that way. Follow the principles and it will become your own, to your specific body type, whenever it is that you become proficient in it of course.

+1 .

[JPinAZ]

Earlier in the thread-Moshe speaks for himself-note the reference to Ip Man etc:

Whatever. You've been inserting your 'assumptions' about what the thread is all about long before that, not to mention also policing the thread for non-WC people (which I am saying is making things worse) Where on this thread did mosh mention Ng Chan's name, or make mention of his sifu? That's right, only your posts! And moshe only mentioned names after you were pushing it here and others were calling you on it

But since you're quoting, here is what you said before moshe mentioned ANY name (Ip Man's included) so you can stop playing stupid like it isn't happening..:

- "This thread was about Ng Chan at the beginning-Moshe's sigung. Moshe was asking how peop;e have conceptions about Ip Man's original wing chun."

- "It seems to me that Moshe was asking how those who think that they have fully developed understanding of wing chun specially Ip Man wing chun-came to that conclusion."

- "We have gone down this path many times but the Ng Chan discussion is a relative late comer to the forum."

Moshe said any lineage is welcome to comment, so your assumptions were all wrong. So, do you even have a comment regarding the OP, or are you just here to speak for Moshe and police the thread un-needlessly? Because if you have nothing to add, you're derailing it.. And don't worry, I won't add to the derailment anymore either.

[YouKnowWho]

Moshe was talking about wing chun- not white crane or shuai chao.
Try not to hi jack the topic.

After I have found out this thread is under WC (I thought it was for general discussion), I'll stay out of this thread for good.

[WC1277]

I just wish Moshe would get to his point so it can actually be discussed without confusion. He's always vague and elusive which does not add in any way to any profundity on the topics he chooses...

[Vajramusti]

I DIDNT WRITE WHO ARE THE ANCESTORS BUT WHAT IS THE LINK ?

yes others lineages can share their experience and perhaps have the same answer to the question
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An answer to your question Moshe. The link to Ip man's wing chun is very clear to me. Good sifus are not robots but the conceptual and operational links to Ip man must be there for it to be a version of Ip man wing chun. And it has to be tried out satisfactorily in practice. Given those criteria Sigung
Ho Kam Ming;'s wing chun and Augustine Fong sifu's wing chun have those conceptual and operational links.
I respect Ng Chan(and WSL too) but he is not the only one to learn in depth from Ip Man.

Ho Kam Ming was taught privately by Ip Man for about seven years with daily contact- then they stayed in close touch. Ho took Ip Man to the hospital once on his shoulders down the street because a vehicle was not easily available- attended to him from time to time and was with him the day he died.He went back to Macao before IM died and Ip Ching called him from HK when his father died. Operationally HKM was taught all the forms in great detail and is one of the very few who
were taught the BJD in complete detail. Fong sifu is one of HKM's best students conceptually and operationally and he has been corrected by Ip man as well during the latter's visits to Macao.And he has fought including for HKM. AF was asked by IM to show one of IM's students who was teaching in Canada- moving chi sao with extensive ma po footwork.

HKM hada school in Macao, AF has a school in Tucson- neither have opened chain stores and franchises.


I respect Ng Chan's hand work from what I see in videos but I am not impressed with his footwork
nor with your chor ma in one video. I respect your short punch though.

Me- I am just one of Fong sfu's student and wont do any chest beating here. I too have applied what I have learned to my satisfaction, including some folks from other styles pf martial arts and sports. I hope not to add more to the thread..or to debate non IM folks.

Good fraternal wishes.

[MOSHE]

The link is the system itself."this is what the system teaches us"

The certified link is the transmision of the system as a whole from generation to generation.

f you are interpretting the concepts/principles differently then your sifu or his sifu, then IMO, the link is already broken -



yes and for sure ,i already explained this in the ng chan thread

i explained as well the difference between mainland wing chun and leung chan/leung bik wing chun and why such a difference ,(this difference is not due to the kind of distortion you mentioned but was just the will of leung chan or other ancestors to adapt a new version more democratic and less complicated )

but its not the answer that im expecting, there is something else

[MOSHE]

[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1185218]
Ving Tsun was developed by evolving over time,
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1185218]

no ,the foundation should not move and nobody after them had their knoledge to build this system

to finish to practice something like JKD or to use basic movements of WC like a self defense has nothing to do with what i call wing chun

[MOSHE]

Moshe seems to be interested in the inter-related questions of how we are linked to a fairly complete version of Ip Man's wing chun other than name dropping and how do we know that what we do is "efficient".


.The occasional seminar was not the method of learning for Moshe, his sifu or sigung.


and receive some answers without the common sarcastic overtones that are common at KFo.
One hopes for something resembling a dialog..


yes

so , regarding the first part ,what should be achieved between the sifu and his student

[MOSHE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An answer to your question Moshe. The link to Ip man's wing chun is very clear to me. Good sifus are not robots but the conceptual and operational links to Ip man must be there for it to be a version of Ip man wing chun. And it has to be tried out satisfactorily in practice. Given those criteria Sigung
Ho Kam Ming;'s wing chun and Augustine Fong sifu's wing chun have those conceptual and operational links.
I respect Ng Chan(and WSL too) but he is not the only one to learn in depth from Ip Man.
Ho Kam Ming was taught privately by Ip Man for about seven years with daily contact- then they stayed in close touch. Ho took Ip Man to the hospital once on his shoulders down the street because a vehicle was not easily available- attended to him from time to time and was with him the day he died.He went back to Macao before IM died and Ip Ching called him from HK when his father died. Operationally HKM was taught all the forms in great detail and is one of the very few who
were taught the BJD in complete detail. Fong sifu is one of HKM's best students conceptually and operationally and he has been corrected by Ip man as well during the latter's visits to Macao.And he has fought including for HKM. AF was asked by IM to show one of IM's students who was teaching in Canada- moving chi sao with extensive ma po footwork.
.

ok ,we spent time with sifu and being good friends, this is important

but there is a fact that i experienced myself and my sifu before me and so ...
pehaps ask your sifu about my question

Best regards Joy

[GlennR]

yes and for sure ,i already explained this in the ng chan thread

i explained as well the difference between mainland wing chun and leung chan/leung bik wing chun and why such a difference ,(this difference is not due to the kind of distortion you mentioned but was just the will of leung chan or other ancestors to adapt a new version more democratic and less complicated )

but its not the answer that im expecting, there is something else

Moshe when you refer to "Leung Chan" are you referring to Leung Jan or Leung Chun, his other son?

[MOSHE]

Moshe when you refer to "Leung Chan" are you referring to Leung Jan

Yes the father

[GlennR]

Yes the father

Thanks for that

[MOSHE]

Thanks for that

Nothing, does it help for something special

[GlennR]

Nothing, does it help for something special

My lineage is actually Leung Chun, Biks brother

[MOSHE]

My lineage is actually Leung Chun, Biks brother

Did you speak before about Chen cen

[GlennR]

Did you speak before about Chen cen

Chen cen?

What do you mean?

[MOSHE]

Chen cen?

What do you mean?

Don't remember the spelling
The sifu in quandong
With some roots in peruvia

[GlennR]

Don't remember the spelling
The sifu in quandong
With some roots in peruvia

No, not familiar with him, im in Australia.

Here's the family tree if youre interested

http://users.tpg.com.au/davidrea/kungfu/tree.html

[MOSHE]

No, not familiar with him, im in Australia.

Here's the family tree if youre interested

http://users.tpg.com.au/davidrea/kungfu/tree.html

Sorry
This one
Le Shennong bencao jing (ou WG Shen nung pen ts´ao king, Pinyin: ... Sum Nung (Cen Neng) was born in Peru in 1926 but was brought to ... Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen Articles: Grandmaster Sum Nung ...

[GlennR]

Sorry
This one
Le Shennong bencao jing (ou WG Shen nung pen ts´ao king, Pinyin: ... Sum Nung (Cen Neng) was born in Peru in 1926 but was brought to ... Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen Articles: Grandmaster Sum Nung ...

Oh, Sum Nung, different lineage

[LoneTiger108]

IMHO I believe MOSHE is talking about the Baisi Ceremony... correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the simplest answer that nobody seems to have mentioned yet.

[MOSHE]

IMHO I believe MOSHE is talking about the Baisi Ceremony... correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the simplest answer that nobody seems to have mentioned yet.

No that
But really something to achieve the teaching and to open the last door

[LoneTiger108]

No that
But really something to achieve the teaching and to open the last door

Ok.

It wouldn't be correct for me to share what I think because from what others are posting here I get the vibe that nobody really cares? I have had this discussion with quite a few of my peers and my Sifu over the years and, for me, there is only one answer. And that answer will be linked to your Baisi IMHO, whether that's a formal or private matter between yourself and your Sifu.

I wait for you to share MOSHE ;)

[MOSHE]

Is this ceremony just for a cup of tea
Or is there some true action and teaching ?

[LoneTiger108]

Is this ceremony just for a cup of tea
Or is there some true action and teaching ?

All depends of if your Wing Chun lineage goes back before or without Ip Man :D

FWIW Ours does both and my Sigung was formerly given the 'European' responsibilities of the Ip Man Martial Arts Athletic Association too. Not that it means anything today...

Still waiting

[MOSHE]

All depends of if your Wing Chun lineage goes back before or without Ip Man :D

FWIW Ours does both and my Sigung was formerly given the 'European' responsibilities of the Ip Man Martial Arts Athletic Association too. Not that it means anything today...

Still waiting

I do understand that you dont know about what I m questioning

[LoneTiger108]

I do understand that you do know about what I m questioning

:) Someone has done their research ;)

So why not let the cat out the bag and get this thread started?!!

[MOSHE]

:) Someone has done their research ;)

So why not let the cat out the bag and get this thread started?!!

Sorry wanted to write "don't know"

[wingchunIan]

I do understand that you dont know about what I m questioning

Moshe, nobody knows what question you are asking because you have asked a cryptic question in a badly scripted post as usual and are being deliberately obtuse in your responses to posters. FYI this doesn't make you appear sage and wise it does quite the reverse.
For what its worth, there is only one way to talk to ancestors and that is through a psychic which I don't believe in, other than that everyone is in the same boat in that you have to rely upon the material handed down through your lineage either verbally or in writing such as the kuit kuen. We should all trust our sifus and therefore certifying anything isn't necessary, but of course information can be altered unintentionally over time as it passes from generation to generation and so the basic rule of school boy history applies, evidence is stronger the closer it originates to the source and it is only valid if corroborated by at least one independent source.

[MOSHE]

Moshe, nobody knows what question you are asking because you have asked a cryptic question in a badly scripted post as usual and are being deliberately obtuse in your responses to posters. FYI this doesn't make you appear sage and wise it does quite the reverse.
For what its worth, there is only one way to talk to ancestors and that is through a psychic which I don't believe in, other than that everyone is in the same boat in that you have to rely upon the material handed down through your lineage either verbally or in writing such as the kuit kuen. We should all trust our sifus and therefore certifying anything isn't necessary, but of course information can be altered unintentionally over time as it passes from generation to generation and so the basic rule of school boy history applies, evidence is stronger the closer it originates to the source and it is only valid if corroborated by at least one independent source.

You see that you understood my question , but you simply failed to answer

[Buddha_Fist]

no ,the foundation should not move and nobody after them had their knoledge to build this system

to finish to practice something like JKD or to use basic movements of WC like a self defense has nothing to do with what i call wing chun


Re-read the final paragraph of my previous post.

I don't see someone's JKD version or other martial arts mixed with a dash of Ving Tsun movements as being Ving Tsun. These things can work (some of them pretty well!), but they don't follow Ving Tsun strategies (Loi Lao Hoi Sung Lat Sao Jik Chung, Chiu Ying, Lin Sil Di Da, body mechanics of how to make these happen, etc.), so they are not in my eyes Ving Tsun. These strategies define what Ving Tsun is, they are its foundation. I don't see them as changing much as the system is already highly developed. However, nobody dreamed up the system as it is today overnight. Like it or not, Ving Tsun is product of evolution (as anything is in life). Now, the question of whether modifications are warranted at its mature stage of development is a whole different story.

[WC1277]

Answer your own ridiculous question Moshe! I'm not sticking around if this thing ends up as long as the Ng Chan thread. Whatever the answer is, I am almost positive it will have no bearing of change on either anyone in this forum or anyone sane enough to realize the BS of mysticism. You have nothing more special than some on this forum or some of the wing chun Sifu's still alive today. A bit of delusion would be my bet on what you do have...

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry wanted to write "don't know"

My speed in replying to posts has caused mistakes on numerous ocassions but now I feel silly for thinking you may even know the answer to your own question Jox!

Maybe your link is the fact that you can't write that well, but this as far as I am aware is something that Ip Man tried to rectify. My Sigung is also known for his written curriculums and I was only suggesting that the written word and our language of Wing Chun is our families solid link to our ancestry.

Some have used the words 'kuen kuit' to describe this but for me it is far more than that, it's the physical language we speak to eachother when we train together. These are conversations that have happend over and over again with people from distant pasts, and they happen now when we interact.

Unfortunately even this link is being broken more these days because the families seem far too concerned with their own uniqueness we sometimes forget to look for the similarities in all of us.

For me, we are all Wing Chun students. And the name itself is our link to past Martial innovation.

I'm writing this as I watch China enter the London 2012 Paralympic Opening Ceremony with a huge team and I for one feel humbled by athletes that make all our whinging, arguing and complaints seem ridiculous.

Train well everyone. We are the lucky ones.

[GlennR]

What a surprise, a thread about someones vague cryptic (and somewhat smug at this stage) question and its well into its 5th page with no end in sight

Moshe, how well can you fight with your style?

[Vajramusti]

What a surprise, a thread about someones vague cryptic (and somewhat smug at this stage) question and its well into its 5th page with no end in sight

Moshe, how well can you fight with your style?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was open minded, Now I have seen and read enough. Some things were interesting-but enough is enough for me anyway.

[WC1277]

My speed in replying to posts has caused mistakes on numerous ocassions but now I feel silly for thinking you may even know the answer to your own question Jox!...

Wait, is Moshe and Jox the same person?

[Vajramusti]

Wait, is Moshe and Jox the same person?
-----------------------------------------------
No, I don;t think so.Spencer's typo.

[MOSHE]

Moshe, how well can you fight with your style?

i have 3 sec to hurt any kind of opponent , and its not easy to block my arm when i launch it to attack

saying that ,im not speaking about a boxing punch

and if you mean fighting like kick boxing or free fighting ,i have no interest in that .

its not relevant to the practice of original wing chun ,i received and counter productive

[GlennR]

i have 3 sec to hurt any kind of opponent , and its not easy to block my arm when i launch it to attack

saying that ,im not speaking about a boxing punch

and if you mean fighting like kick boxing or free fighting ,i have no interest in that .

its not relevant to the practice of original wing chun ,i received and counter productive

How do you test it?

[MOSHE]

How do you test it?

against other people for example !

i have to say again , that im not practising shi sao in an extensive way ,last time Jox came to train with me ,i did chi sao with him for the first time since 6 months before

working the right way with the dummy is the key tool

chi sao for yip man was just to keep people busy like today some sifu are taking one third on the time during the class to do cardio training

chi sao is just for beginners

[GlennR]

against other people for example !

Yeh but how? Sparring, organised fights? death matches?


i have to say again , that im not practising shi sao in an extensive way ,last time Jox came to train with me ,i did chi sao with him for the first time since 6 months before

working the right way with the dummy is the key tool

chi sao for yip man was just to keep people busy like today some sifu are taking one third on the time during the class to do cardio training

chi sao is just for beginners

You have a high opinion of your lineage and yourself, how have you come to this conclusion?

[MOSHE]

Yeh but how? Sparring, organised fights? death matches?



You have a high opinion of your lineage and yourself, how have you come to this conclusion?

Not of myself
I went trough differents styles and even before to meet my last sifu
I learned two other wing Chun lineages (not yip man)
I met differents practitioners

I finally made the choice of the best potential ,the more efficient and authentic

[GlennR]

Not of myself
I went trough differents styles and even before to meet my last sifu
I learned two other wing Chun lineages (not yip man)
I met differents practitioners

I finally made the choice of the best potential ,the more efficient and authentic

Yes, but how have you tested it?

[wingchunIan]

You see that you understood my question , but you simply failed to answer

actually I think the answer was very complete, you just lack the ability to understand it.

[MOSHE]

Yes, but how have you tested it?

Contact,,,,

[GlennR]

Contact,,,,

God, i give up

Congrats on creating the longest, most pointless threads here, and thats saying something!

[wingchunIan]

chi sao is just for beginners

In that single line you have summed up your ignorance of the system. Chi sao is a vital part of the system developig and honing reflexes , it's at least on a par with the dummy, the wall bag, drilling and application work (whether you call it sparring or pressure testing or whatever) as you become more proficient so the exercise evolves and you continue to learn and hone your skills.
Good luck with your training and if you ever get attacked by a wooden post with three arms and only one leg I'm sure you'll do well.

[MOSHE]

In that single line you have summed up your ignorance of the system. Chi sao is a vital part of the system developig and honing reflexes , it's at least on a par with the dummy, the wall bag, drilling and application work (whether you call it sparring or pressure testing or whatever) as you become more proficient so the exercise evolves and you continue to learn and hone your skills.
Good luck with your training and if you ever get attacked by a wooden post with three arms and only one leg I'm sure you'll do well.

Yes mister 5% of what I know and can do

[GlennR]

Yes mister 5% of what I know and can do

All you seem to know well is to create pointless threads with no ending.... well done

[MOSHE]

God, i give up

Congrats on creating the longest, most pointless threads here, and thats saying something!

So precise your question or tell about you

[GlennR]

So precise your question or tell about you

You sure you arent Hendrik?

[MOSHE]

You sure you arent Hendrik?

How did you find out ?

[GlennR]

How did you find out ?

Idiots of a feather flock together

[MOSHE]

Yeh but how? Sparring, organised fights?

Didn't see this, nothing of that , I m Care for myself and I
am not acting like an animal !

[GlennR]

Didn't see this, nothing of that , I m Care for myself and I
am not acting like an animal !

I disagree... i think you are a chicken

[MOSHE]

I disagree... i think you are a chicken

You should work on your ability of abstraction

[GlennR]

You should work on your ability of abstraction

Sorry i cant, im a bit busy sparring and [B]testing[B]myself..... im sure you have time between forms and the dummy

[LoneTiger108]

Wait, is Moshe and Jox the same person?


No, I don;t think so.Spencer's typo.

:mad: Man!! Another typo!!!!

Sorry gents I must've got confused as Hendrik started the same topic on his Facebook page and Jox posts on there alot too. Bit of a Batman & Robin combination.

Reading that 'Chisau' is just for beginners sums up this whole thread really because I was under the impression MOSHE may have a bit of lingusitic power and this proves he may struggle with his Chinese as well as English.

I'm all up for people sharing their thoughts on Wing Chun, especially if they feel unique and special (don't we all!?) but to see the tone drop because a few simple questions can not be answered is just typical of this bl00dy forum.

May as well bow out for a bit myself as I have a busy few weeks ahead with work and training. But you all know what I'm like... I will be lurking in the background somewhere waiting to see something 'interesting'.

[LoneTiger108]

LT please be careful with my nick.. ;)
Yes I post on FB there, but not on the same named topic...

Peace...

J, :)

I see that ;)

Still, I haven't yet seen a comprehensive answer from MOSHE that he promised in his first post.

As ever, I will try and respond to posts that quote me or answer any questions directed at me but apart from that this forum is getting far too tiresome IMHO

[wingchunIan]

Yes mister 5% of what I know and can do

I have a strong suspicion that what you know would fit on a very small postage stamp and what you can do would take up even less space.

[MOSHE]

I have a strong suspicion that what you know would fit on a very small postage stamp and what you can do would take up even less space.

You certainly still keeping some frustration since the kindergarden

Wish you the best recovery !

[JPinAZ]

yes and for sure ,i already explained this in the ng chan thread

i explained as well the difference between mainland wing chun and leung chan/leung bik wing chun and why such a difference ,(this difference is not due to the kind of distortion you mentioned but was just the will of leung chan or other ancestors to adapt a new version more democratic and less complicated )

but its not the answer that im expecting, there is something else

Sorry, but after a few pages of that thread I gave up, so I have no idea what was said there - different thread, different story?

Anyway, in Hung Fa Yi (which is not a Ip Man Lineage), we have what we call the '4 Big Seals' that helps maintain consistancy and understanding of the system at different levels as it's passed down. This goes beyond just Bai Si ceremony.

More can be read on that here for a general idea:
http://www.hungfablog.com/2012/02/17/big-seals-hung-fa-yi-wing-chun-kuen/

[JPinAZ]

against other people for example !

i have to say again , that im not practising shi sao in an extensive way ,last time Jox came to train with me ,i did chi sao with him for the first time since 6 months before

....

chi sao is just for beginners

Same for us to a point. Typical Taan/Bong/Fook 2-hand rolling platform of chi sau is not an extensive focus either (think this is called poon sau?), but does have it's place and I wouldn't necessarily call it for beginners - it can be for advanced level trainig as well ;)
Now, while this configuration does have it's place in fighting too, it is only for a very limited specific range/facing/timeframe. A lot of what our beginners start with is kiu sau engagement and working from there learing about centerline, gate theories, box theories etc. IMO, this is more applicable to what one finds in a confrontation (starting non-contact to contact vs starting squared up with both hands engaged - I mean, how does one get there in the first place??).

But then, one can approach a student's learning from any point they chose I guess and start with T/B/F platfrom early on. Depends on what the teacher feels like giving and what the student needs. But my personal opinion is this type of training is focused on too heavily in a lot of WC schools.

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by MOSHE View Post
against other people for example !

i have to say again , that im not practising shi sao in an extensive way ,last time Jox came to train with me ,i did chi sao with him for the first time since 6 months before

....

chi sao is just for beginners
-------------------------------------------------------

Interesting opinion... and did your si gung also say this after staying with Ip man for a while?

[WC1277]

Even though Moshe is an idiot, if there is a "link to the ancestors" as he so vaguely put it, then it's probably this IMO regardless of his arrogance.

Wing Chun ultimately has everything to do with control of your own body. All the drills, forms, and chi sao should, if a competent Sifu is present, teach you how to control yourself. You can only control another efficiently if you first are able to control yourself. For example, real fighting is the combination of soft stick, hard stick, distance, and structure when the opponent doesn't just let you hit him. You attack, the opponent intercepts but the distance hasn't been moved. That is soft stick where as soon as the skin stretches in your own arm and the opponent hasn't stopped his forward power to neutralize, you can switch to continue the attack. Hard stick involves moving the structure into the opponent whether he's intercepting your attack moving towards you or you're moving into him to intercept his attack. Hard stick involves your body active while your arms are passive(like pushing a car) letting you switch using the opposite principle as soft stick. As soon as his power stops moving forward you can switch immediately just like a spring releasing. Fighting with wing chun is the constant back and forth between these principles. There's of course much more but all of this, all of Wing Chun, can only be applied if you can control your own body and it's reaction to force. Has nothing to do with your training partner or opponent. If there's anything that could possibly be the "link", I would put my money on that guideline.

[MOSHE]

Originally Posted by MOSHE View Post
against other people for example !

i have to say again , that im not practising shi sao in an extensive way ,last time Jox came to train with me ,i did chi sao with him for the first time since 6 months before

....

chi sao is just for beginners
-------------------------------------------------------

Interesting opinion... and did your si gung also say this after staying with Ip man for a while?

i never exchange about that with ng chan , but with my sifu ,and him did

[MOSHE]

Even though Moshe is an idiot, if there is a "link to the ancestors" as he so vaguely put it, then it's probably this IMO regardless of his arrogance.

Wing Chun ultimately has everything to do with control of your own body. All the drills, forms, and chi sao should, if a competent Sifu is present, teach you how to control yourself. You can only control another efficiently if you first are able to control yourself. For example, real fighting is the combination of soft stick, hard stick, distance, and structure when the opponent doesn't just let you hit him. You attack, the opponent intercepts but the distance hasn't been moved. That is soft stick where as soon as the skin stretches in your own arm and the opponent hasn't stopped his forward power to neutralize, you can switch to continue the attack. Hard stick involves moving the structure into the opponent whether he's intercepting your attack moving towards you or you're moving into him to intercept his attack. Hard stick involves your body active while your arms are passive(like pushing a car) letting you switch using the opposite principle as soft stick. As soon as his power stops moving forward you can switch immediately just like a spring releasing. Fighting with wing chun is the constant back and forth between these principles. There's of course much more but all of this, all of Wing Chun, can only be applied if you can control your own body and it's reaction to force. Has nothing to do with your training partner or opponent. If there's anything that could possibly be the "link", I would put my money on that guideline.

QUAND LE VASE EST PLEIN ,L'EAU DEBORDE , AVEC TA THEORIE A LA NOIx .JE TE MANGE EN DEUX SECONDES !

[MOSHE]

Even though Moshe is an idiot, if there is a "link to the ancestors" as he so vaguely put it, then it's probably this IMO regardless of his arrogance.

Wing Chun ultimately has everything to do with control of your own body. All the drills, forms, and chi sao should, if a competent Sifu is present, teach you how to control yourself. You can only control another efficiently if you first are able to control yourself. For example, real fighting is the combination of soft stick, hard stick, distance, and structure when the opponent doesn't just let you hit him. You attack, the opponent intercepts but the distance hasn't been moved. That is soft stick where as soon as the skin stretches in your own arm and the opponent hasn't stopped his forward power to neutralize, you can switch to continue the attack. Hard stick involves moving the structure into the opponent whether he's intercepting your attack moving towards you or you're moving into him to intercept his attack. Hard stick involves your body active while your arms are passive(like pushing a car) letting you switch using the opposite principle as soft stick. As soon as his power stops moving forward you can switch immediately just like a spring releasing. Fighting with wing chun is the constant back and forth between these principles. There's of course much more but all of this, all of Wing Chun, can only be applied if you can control your own body and it's reaction to force. Has nothing to do with your training partner or opponent. If there's anything that could possibly be the "link", I would put my money on that guideline.

But yes you need to control your body and I'm happy for you that in your brilliant last thread you discovered that we have a brain to command the body
Good continuation and good luck
don't try to pump up your brain,it's not a muscle

[WC1277]

But yes you need to control your body and I'm happy for you that in your brilliant last thread you discovered that we have a brain to command the body
Good continuation and good luck
don't try to pump up your brain,it's not a muscle

Now I know, without a doubt, that you have either not fought at all or beat up a small child at best. What I explained was true of all fighting regardless of style. WC just takes it a step further. And before you pat yourself on the back about your attempt at a smarta$$ response, it is obvious that you are amateur at best in your understanding of Wing Chun in theory, in practice, and in application. Good luck, hope you never have to use that awesome Wing Chun you have there in real life!

[MOSHE]

Now I a small child at best.

sorry I didn't know that you are 15 years old

Take care body , I have fun with you

[PalmStriker]

i have 3 sec to hurt any kind of opponent , and its not easy to block my arm when i launch it to attack

saying that ,im not speaking about a boxing punch

and if you mean fighting like kick boxing or free fighting ,i have no interest in that .

its not relevant to the practice of original wing chun ,i received and counter productive
You are speaking bong sao tao, not for deflection, but for attack that comes under the chin and lifts opponents head (violently).

[desertwingchun2]

Sounds like Saat Gang Sao. Ouch!!

[PalmStriker]

With force plus speed, at close quarters due to the angle of the arm it is hard to anticipate or stop the "suto edge " of the hand as it flips upward off the wrist and hits intended target. Seal the breath. Lights out.

[wingchunIan]

MOSHE Oh no nothing worth quoting as usual, grade A muppet

[Vajramusti]

With force plus speed, at close quarters due to the angle of the arm it is hard to anticipate or stop the "suto edge " of the hand as it flips upward off the wrist and hits intended target. Seal the breath. Lights out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is another variable--the other fella...and who, what when and how.Moves are not unstoppable.

[GlennR]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is another variable--the other fella...and who, what when and how.Moves are not unstoppable.

Yep, tedious

[PalmStriker]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is another variable--the other fella...and who, what when and how.Moves are not unstoppable. Quite right. :):D:)

[Wayfaring]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is another variable--the other fella...and who, what when and how.Moves are not unstoppable.

You know, with people who actually spar, this is like "no duh", not even necessary to comment on.

But then again, we are on the KFO WCK fforum....:eek:

[WC1277]

Moshe was lying from the get go.

"....any sayings that only Master Ng Chan learned the true/unique set of Wing Chun skills is completely incorrect. Also there is no such thing as true/direct descendant of Wing Chun martial arts. This kind of statement is an insult to Master Ng and our Wing Chun ancestors.

Actually, Master Ng Chan had stated that there is no right or wrong (or even clumsy or skillful movement) in the context of martial arts. The most important is the fundamental skill of the martial artist. A person can change a clumsy skill into the right action (hereby skillful) in combat if the executioner has the right foundation. On the contrary, if a person lacks the understanding or foundation in executing any skillful movement, then it will be awkward for that person to execute any kind of skillful movement at all (and hence turning that skillful movement into a clumsy one)."

- http://ngchanvingtsun.com/vingtsun/22/Announcement.aspx

[MOSHE]

Moshe is that only Master Ng Chan learned the true/unique set of Wing Chun skills . is western countries

Also there is such thing as true/direct descendant of Wing Chun martial arts.

On the contrary, if a person lacks the understanding LIKE ME WR1277 or foundation in executing any skillful movement, then it will be awkward for that person to execute any kind of good skillful movement at all"



thank you ,you certainly feel better now

[GlennR]

thank you ,you certainly feel better now

Well seems to make you feel better beating your chest about your lineage and ability.

But hey, you punch planks, so you must be good

[MOSHE]

Well seems to make you feel better beating your chest about your lineage and ability.

But hey, you punch planks, so you must be good

yes ,if you could share the same ability ,you would not be refereeing to ring fights or others variations

i dont blame you ,because its difficult to understand what you had never been taught !

you would prefer the world to be like the 4 square meters around you but its not

[GlennR]

yes ,if you could share the same ability ,you would not be refereeing to ring fights or others variations

i dont blame you ,because its difficult to understand what you had never been taught !

you would prefer the world to be like the 4 square meters around you but its not

Ahhhhh, too deadly for the ring are you????

Saw your punch, were we supposed to be impressed?
Honestly......... were we? Really?

Thats it? Thats all you offer?

Id suggest you get of your chair, stop punching planks, stop beating your chest (youve done/got nothing to beat it about) and try the "4m square"..... i promise that your point of view will change and your ego be more in check

But then i dont think youd find the heart

[MOSHE]

Ahhhhh, too deadly for the ring are you????

Saw your punch, were we supposed to be impressed?
Honestly......... were we? Really?

Thats it? Thats all you offer?

Id suggest you get of your chair, stop punching planks, stop beating your chest (youve done/got nothing to beat it about) and try the "4m square"..... i promise that your point of view will change and your ego be more in check

But then i dont think youd find the heart

you ,like two or three other guys in this forum have a problem of ego ,i dont

you never presented anything singular but just that you can build and modify what you are calling wing chun because of your own experience and thinking

and that the only way to test it was to be in the same situation than other ring sport

what is a non sense

you simply never accepted my personal experience for the only reason that it was not known by you

so i think that closed mind and ego are on your side

[GlennR]

you ,like two or three other guys in this forum have a problem of ego ,i dont

Wrong. Getting in a ring and getting beaten up is hardly fanning ones ego. Its called learning. I dont expect you to understand this


you never presented anything singular but just that you can build and modify what you are calling wing chun because of your own experience and thinking

and that the only way to test it was to be in the same situation than other ring sport

In a society where fighting on the streets is 1) illegal and 2) stupid, its the only way..... you have another option?


what is a non sense

What is nonsense is that im wasting my time chatting with you.


you simply never accepted my personal experience for the only reason that it was not known by you

so i think that closed mind and ego are on your side

What personal perspective? Lineage worship and the bagging of everyone else?

Mate, you have an ego only matched by the lack of substance in your posts. If the best you can do is "we know Leung Bik stuff" then youre wasting everyones time as well as your own.

Go Bik yourself!

[MOSHE]

have another option?

What personal perspective? Lineage worship and the bagging of everyone else?

Mate, you have an ego only matched by the lack of substance in your posts. If the best you can do is "we know leung bik stuff" then youre wasting everyones time as well as your own.

go bik myself!


thats true that comparing to the score of my thread what you tried to launch wasnt at all impressive
you didnt passionate anybody than yourself

too bad that for you and too others the only way to express is to find people stupid or idiot and to insult them

[GlennR]

thats true that comparing to the score of my thread what you tried to launch wasnt at all impressive
you didnt passionate anybody than yourself

too bad that for you and too others the only way to express is to find people stupid or idiot and to insult them

If i had any idea what you were saying, id pick it apart.

But, ill leave you to your pointless thread and your maybe answers and participate in a thread about WC, not your lineage driven drivel

[PalmStriker]

AND, for some light reading: http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/myths.php :)