Purpose of standardized stylized two man forms

[RWilson]

What have your teachers told you this was fr in regards to learning to fight? I have been told hand eye coordination, structure, root, developing the movements of the style were reasons I was given for 2 man forms(I personally prefer 2 women together forms, just admitting the truth here ;) ).

Is this the best way to develop all of the above? Are two man forms needed only for beginners or does everyone need them at different points?


I have been exposed to different kinds in terms of energy. For example some flowed more to develop flowy spring power, some were harder an hurt my arms, some were just two guys literally crashing into each other. Sparring did not look like Or feel like any of these which you all know.

[taai gihk yahn]

as long as the routine is predetermined, the contextual interference effect is quite low, and does not approximate "real" fighting in any way (motor learning research has shown time and again that blocked practice is beneficial at the very early stages of motor skill acquisition, but that soon after it has no positive and even at times a detrimental effect on retention and transfer);

CTS always told us that most two-person sets were good for shows; there were two he taught that were more "realistic", insofar as they were ostensibly counters and counter-to-counters: one was a set on the plum-flower poles, another he taught us was a grappling-type routine; whether they would actually "work" would be the issue of course - the plum-flower set was cool, but honestly, a bit of an artifact in terms of the footwork, which is supposedly the "secret" of using the stumps, it teaches you where you are supposed to step, but that's pretty contrived beyond that u shud move at oblique angles rather than straight into someone (derr); for the grappling set, lots of the techniques were stuff u do see in other grappling arts; but really, u would be better off just breaking down the moves, or perhaps joining a SAMBO school even...

I like taiji-style 2-person flow-drills, but that's from a rehab / health perspective - there are opportunities in that sort of thing for neuro-muscular re-education that are rather unique - it's a good way to get core-activation going in a way that is more functional than lying on ur back squeezing ur transverse abdominals during leg lifts

[MightyB]

What have your teachers told you this was fr in regards to learning to fight? I have been told hand eye coordination, structure, root, developing the movements of the style were reasons I was given for 2 man forms(I personally prefer 2 women together forms, just admitting the truth here ;) ).

Is this the best way to develop all of the above? Are two man forms needed only for beginners or does everyone need them at different points?


I have been exposed to different kinds in terms of energy. For example some flowed more to develop flowy spring power, some were harder an hurt my arms, some were just two guys literally crashing into each other. Sparring did not look like Or feel like any of these which you all know.

IMO - so people wouldn't mutate applications because the empty hand solo routines have a lot of obscure movements. Other than that - they are just like most every other form, they're for show.

[TenTigers]

good for beginners, establishing movement and reactions with zero pressure (which is increased with students' development) while developing structure-the first thing to go out the window when the pressure's on.
Once this has been established, the set should be dropped and replaced with more alive training. Many movements such as stepping back three times and blocking, actually teaches bad habits. From then on in, it's all for show.

[RWilson]

good for beginners, establishing movement and reactions with zero pressure (which is increased with students' development) while developing structure-the first thing to go out the window when the pressure's on.
Once this has been established, the set should be dropped and replaced with more alive training. Many movements such as stepping back three times and blocking, actually teaches bad habits. From then on in, it's all for show.

Do you feel the same about the Mor Kiu bridge seeking set of dragon boxing? I know you are familiar with southern short hand styles but I am not sure if you know about dragon boxing. Or how about the short hand two man sets from your shorthand styles?

[RWilson]

as long as the routine is predetermined, the contextual interference effect is quite low, and does not approximate "real" fighting in any way (motor learning research has shown time and again that blocked practice is beneficial at the very early stages of motor skill acquisition, but that soon after it has no positive and even at times a detrimental effect on retention and transfer);

CTS always told us that most two-person sets were good for shows; there were two he taught that were more "realistic", insofar as they were ostensibly counters and counter-to-counters: one was a set on the plum-flower poles, another he taught us was a grappling-type routine; whether they would actually "work" would be the issue of course - the plum-flower set was cool, but honestly, a bit of an artifact in terms of the footwork, which is supposedly the "secret" of using the stumps, it teaches you where you are supposed to step, but that's pretty contrived beyond that u shud move at oblique angles rather than straight into someone (derr); for the grappling set, lots of the techniques were stuff u do see in other grappling arts; but really, u would be better off just breaking down the moves, or perhaps joining a SAMBO school even...

I like taiji-style 2-person flow-drills, but that's from a rehab / health perspective - there are opportunities in that sort of thing for neuro-muscular re-education that are rather unique - it's a good way to get core-activation going in a way that is more functional than lying on ur back squeezing ur transverse abdominals during leg lifts

I agree with the above. That is a good way of putting it.

[TenTigers]

not familiar with this set, do you have a youtube link?
I have a friend who does Lung Ying Moor Kiu and they just go free form when they train the bridge-closer to a sparring push hands with strikes.
In SPM-the first two man set (sam bo ging) is as I described above. After you reach a certain level of skill and understanding, it no longer serves you, and is disgarded for more alive training.
The second two-man set (sup bot dim) is really more free form. You attack each other with each move and you react-wherever it goes, it goes. It is more sparring but with a "structured" beginning..then all hell breaks loose!

two-man sets are like Karate's ippon kumite-one step sparring.
This drill is extremely basic, as it is very structured and controlled. The person attacking does so by stepping in with a reverse punch which is then held, while the defender performs the counter. For beginners, it teaches distance, timing, reaction in a safe controlled fashion.
The big mistake many Karate schools make is that instead of then taking it to more alive training, say, against a jab, then gearing up and picking up the pace, they created two-step and "advanced" three step sparring. YIKES!

Any time you are stepping back three times and blocking (which is seen in many two-man sets and drills, and is solely designed for rank beginners) you are training yourself to be ineffective. You should shut your opponent down on the first beat. (actually on the first half-beat!) yet, we see many high level Masters (yeah, I thought you'd like that) demonstrating this exact thing.

[IronFist]

did that other thread get deleted?

I never found out if you like sweet potatoes. That's not white carbs.

[TenTigers]

they deleted a thread about sweet potatoes?
BLASPHEMY!
I love sweet potatoes! Sweet potato fries, sweet potato chips, sweet potato soup...
hmm..sounds like Forest Gump...

[Brule]

they deleted a thread about sweet potatoes?
BLASPHEMY!
I love sweet potatoes! Sweet potato fries, sweet potato chips, sweet potato soup...
hmm..sounds like Forest Gump...

Man, i love sweet potaotes but i can never get fries to get crispy. Mind you, i don't have a deep fryer and use the oven. They always turn out soft. Any tips Ten?

[David Jamieson]

2 man forms = discovery for students.

They help to develop coordination and understanding of the style in use. Beyond that, they are for demonstrative purposes pretty much exclusively.

intermediate learning tool.

[TenTigers]

Man, i love sweet potaotes but i can never get fries to get crispy. Mind you, i don't have a deep fryer and use the oven. They always turn out soft. Any tips Ten?
you can try brushing them with oil before placing them in the oven.
just found this-sounds tasty-
http://www.instructables.com/id/Perfect-Oven-Sweet-Potato-Fries/

she uses olive oil, and sea salt n pepper. yum!

[sanjuro_ronin]

as long as the routine is predetermined, the contextual interference effect is quite low, and does not approximate "real" fighting in any way (motor learning research has shown time and again that blocked practice is beneficial at the very early stages of motor skill acquisition, but that soon after it has no positive and even at times a detrimental effect on retention and transfer);

CTS always told us that most two-person sets were good for shows; there were two he taught that were more "realistic", insofar as they were ostensibly counters and counter-to-counters: one was a set on the plum-flower poles, another he taught us was a grappling-type routine; whether they would actually "work" would be the issue of course - the plum-flower set was cool, but honestly, a bit of an artifact in terms of the footwork, which is supposedly the "secret" of using the stumps, it teaches you where you are supposed to step, but that's pretty contrived beyond that u shud move at oblique angles rather than straight into someone (derr); for the grappling set, lots of the techniques were stuff u do see in other grappling arts; but really, u would be better off just breaking down the moves, or perhaps joining a SAMBO school even...

I like taiji-style 2-person flow-drills, but that's from a rehab / health perspective - there are opportunities in that sort of thing for neuro-muscular re-education that are rather unique - it's a good way to get core-activation going in a way that is more functional than lying on ur back squeezing ur transverse abdominals during leg lifts

Pretty much on the button.

[sanjuro_ronin]

two-man sets are like Karate's ippon kumite-one step sparring.
This drill is extremely basic, as it is very structured and controlled. The person attacking does so by stepping in with a reverse punch which is then held, while the defender performs the counter. For beginners, it teaches distance, timing, reaction in a safe controlled fashion.
The big mistake many Karate schools make is that instead of then taking it to more alive training, say, against a jab, then gearing up and picking up the pace, they created two-step and "advanced" three step sparring. YIKES!

Any time you are stepping back three times and blocking (which is seen in many two-man sets and drills, and is solely designed for rank beginners) you are training yourself to be ineffective. You should shut your opponent down on the first beat. (actually on the first half-beat!) yet, we see many high level Masters (yeah, I thought you'd like that) demonstrating this exact thing.

In the karate and TKD systems I learned, you progressed in thus manner:
3step
2step
1step
1step semi-freestyle ( predetermined attack, any counter)
1step freestyle ( no predetermined attack, but established roles of who attacks and who defends).

Freestyle sparring ( controlled with gear) was taught in the first couple of months anyways.

The "step sparring" was used to grade the student and to work on technique.

[Golden Arms]

2 man sets tend to be for show. If the techniques were done effectively then the set would be 3 moves long.

[RWilson]

did that other thread get deleted?

I never found out if you like sweet potatoes. That's not white carbs.

I hate sweet potatoes. Gross.

[-N-]

What have your teachers told you this was fr in regards to learning to fight?

Lets the students begin to see the difference between form and usage.

In usage there is a lot of adjustment details to make in movement, distance, and timing because of the partner.

This comes out when the partners use force and go to the targets at speed whether empty hands or with weapons.

Most 2 man forms are too cooperative with partners too far apart, from what I've seen.


Are two man forms needed only for beginners or does everyone need them at different points?

Useful at the intermediate level so people don't get stuck in beginner mode thinking that they are supposed to be posing like a noob learning a form.

[YouKnowWho]

I taught this 2 men form many years ago. This clip was taken in a Dallas Karate tournament the year that Bruce Lee died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPj38vYW208

I like 2 men form better than solo form. In another 2 men form, I learned right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook combo that I had only seen in one prey mantis solo drill.

[-N-]

I taught this 2 men form many years ago. This clip was taken in a Dallas Karate tournament the year that Bruce Lee died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPj38vYW208

I like 2 men form better than solo form. In another 2 men form, I learned right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook combo that I had only seen in one prey mantis solo drill.

Do you ever have the students do the sequence at sparring speed with running footwork?

[YouKnowWho]

Do you ever have the students do the sequence at sparring speed with running footwork?

During high school, we used to demo in much faster speed. In one high school event, my longfist brothers demo spear vs. Guan Dao. They did in such fast speed that one guy didn't dodge the spear fast enough, the spear went into another guy's shoulder. After that, we slow down the 2 men form speed for safe purpose. In the longfist system, we have a lot of 2 men weapon forms such as:

- Spear vs. Guan dao,
- Dao vs, spear,
- Jian vs. Jian.
- ...


Most 2 man forms are too cooperative with partners too far apart, from what I've seen.
I don't like TCMA 2 men forms. I prefer to design my own. This way I can adjust the distance to be more combat realistic.

[IronFist]

Two man forms are cool for demos.

They can also help conditioning a bit since you are moving around, and if they have forearm strikes/blocks or that type of thing in them.

They don't really teach anything else. Nothing is realistic when you know what your opponent is about to do. Plus, most of them use flashy moves that don't work on resisting opponents anyway.

Basic crazy monkey drills with 100x better at developing awareness in new students.

Two man forms look cool, though.

[YouKnowWho]

Both solo form and 2 men form are for teaching and learning only. It's not for training. For training, you need to drill individual move over and over.

In this longfist qinna dui da form, there are a lot of useful information recorded in this form. It's like a book, 1000 years from today, when you open this book, you can still find some useful information from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

[Tainan Mantis]

The Chinese Nationalist Army used a 24 movement form called chu ji quan 'basic fist' to teach the soldiers attack and defense.
The form consists of 12 attack and 12 counter attacks.
The form can be performed empty hand or with bayonet and rifle.

In America it is also known as '24 beat' under the Tian Shan Pai lineage of Wang Juezhen.

Pictures of the army in training can be seen in this article Kung Fu Fit For an Army (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2010/Chu%20Ji%20Quan.htm)

Two person weapon routines have been taught at least as far back as the Ming Dynasty and are described in Shaolin Gunfa Chan Zong of the late Ming.

The effectiveness of empty hand two person sets is limited, but for weapons it is a good way to introduce the student to the method of attack and counter-attack.

[YouKnowWho]

The effectiveness of empty hand two person sets is limited, but for weapons it is a good way to introduce the student to the method of attack and counter-attack.
People in the modern day may not know the goal for TCMA training is not "open hand fight" but to "be able to use a 'cold' weapon effectively".

This is one of my favor jokes.

- A boxer challenged a TCMA guy.
- They set up time and place.
- During the duel time,
- the boxer brings his 16 oz boxing gloves.
- The TCMA guy brings his 10 feet, 60 lb Guan Dao.

These 2 guys have different definitions about "fight".

[IronFist]

Both solo form and 2 men form are for teaching and learning only. It's not for training. For training, you need to drill individual move over and over.

In this longfist qinna dui da form, there are a lot of useful information recorded in this form. It's like a book, 1000 years from today, when you open this book, you can still find some useful information from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

Teaching and learning what? Techniques you won't actually use against a resisting opponent?

[YouKnowWho]

Teaching and learning what? Techniques you won't actually use against a resisting opponent?
What's your definition of "resisting opponent"? The word "resisting" can mean 2 different things.

- Never give you a chance.

If you use me to help you to develop your striking skill, and I just run away from you. If I can run faster than you, there is no way that you can land any punch on me. What kind of striking skill can you develop by using me as your training partner?

- Always resist against your force.

If you use me as your training partner to develop your "hip throw". The moment that you touch me, the moment that I sink myself to the ground (maximum resistence). Will you be able to use me to develop your "hip throw"?

[TenTigers]

The effectiveness of empty hand two person sets is limited, but for weapons it is a good way to introduce the student to the method of attack and counter-attack.
ahhh....I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. "clack"-"clack"-"clack"-"clack"

Real weapon vs weapon should never be this way.

The saying is,"When using the gwun, (pole) never make two sounds."

-You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,
or You strike the hand that holds the weapon, then the body,
or you simply go directly to the body.

[bawang]

two man forms come from extinct styles that trained only two man forms and no solo, it was thought to be a little better than doing solo forms. when chinese kung fu focused on performance in the 1800s two man forms became less popular.

for example ming dynaty army's yu family stick was a two man system, but is preserved as today's shalin five tiger stick, a solo form.

erlang quan "two man boxing" was a two man system but today is just a long fist system with solo forms.

[Lucas]

People in the modern day may not know the goal for TCMA training is not "open hand fight" but to "be able to use a 'cold' weapon effectively".

This is one of my favor jokes.

- A boxer challenged a TCMA guy.
- They set up time and place.
- During the duel time,
- the boxer brings his 16 oz boxing gloves.
- The TCMA guy brings his 10 feet, 60 lb Guan Dao.

These 2 guys have different definitions about "fight".

when a bjj guy challenged me i knew it would end up a ground fight and i would lose since he outclass me there, so i decided to choose swords. We ended up not fighting. He tried to chump my stand up with ground so i chumped his ground with steel. This is why i always carry a knife.

[TAO YIN]

Two man forms also help with the adrenaline dump problem, especially in beginners of course. Done enough, two man forms also help moves become second nature, or simply natural, if you will. Conditioning is also important for those beginners who have never been hit. Two man forms teach structure and timing.

It is good to do them with pads and that and actually full on hit. With pads and contact, people can see how the moves inside the two man forms work.

I guess in the end of it all they are catalogues kind of like single man forms are. Same as forms, they are not meant to express how a whole fight will occur.

[Lucas]

Two man forms also help with the adrenaline dump problem, especially in beginners of course. Done enough, two man forms also help moves become second nature, or simply natural, if you will. Conditioning is also important for those beginners who have never been hit. Two man forms teach structure and timing.

It is good to do them with pads and that and actually full on hit. With pads and contact, people can see how the moves inside the two man forms work.

I guess in the end of it all they are catalogues kind of like single man forms are. Same as forms, they are not meant to express how a whole fight will occur.

yep you can also do what i like to call open partner forms. For instance you have a form you do. Have 3 or 4 people attack you in various ways through your form, forcing you to react to them with the application you are on. For example for say the third tech in the form you will have 4 or 5 pre arranged attacks that the partners will use on you. This way you can get comfortablr adjusting that texhnique to deal with different attacks via several of that techs possible applications. Its almost free form yet structured enough to be consistent to avoid serious injury. No its not sparring and its not how a fight works but the techniques are real, against resisrance, and to a degree impromptu in regards to the application variant. And its hhheellllaa fun :D

[-N-]

ahhh....I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. "clack"-"clack"-"clack"-"clack"

Real weapon vs weapon should never be this way.

The saying is,"When using the gwun, (pole) never make two sounds."

-You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,
or You strike the hand that holds the weapon, then the body,
or you simply go directly to the body.

Stick and slide to cut or smash the hands - this is how it's supposed to be done in our double daggers against spear, broadsword against spear, staff against spear etc.

But I see a lot of people in my system handling their weapons in a dead way, hitting weapon against weapon, hitting the air 2 feet away from the target, countering even before the attack is made.

Control the other weapon, attack the hands. Or direct attack to the body.

Our 2 person weapons teach correctly. But the students don't always practice correctly.

In practicing spear against 3 section staff we went direct to the targets. One classmate who partnered with my teacher, asked to not learn the routine after facing my teacher's 3 section staff.

One time on that routine, I made high attack to the face which my classmate did not counter in time. My spear tip touched his cheek and I pulled the attack before he got hurt. He was pretty freaked out though. Our concession to safety was to aim at the cheek rather than the eyes or throat.

[-N-]

What's your definition of "resisting opponent"? The word "resisting" can mean 2 different things.

- Never give you a chance.

If you use me to help you to develop your striking skill, and I just run away from you. If I can run faster than you, there is no way that you can land any punch on me. What kind of striking skill can you develop by using me as your training partner?

- Always resist against your force.

If you use me as your training partner to develop your "hip throw". The moment that you touch me, the moment that I sink myself to the ground (maximum resistence). Will you be able to use me to develop your "hip throw"?

Our 2 man forms have both those types of "resistance".

When the person escapes, he really has to make distance and speed to give you a hard time. The other person is forced to run him down to close for the attack. This is where you see the difference between our beginner footwork and the more advanced footwork details. That said, I've seen it done mostly incorrectly more often than correctly.

When the other person engages the force instead of escaping, the attacks have to be countered or they will land. And we do try to land them. Not to say that we are out of control though

One time we got yelled at by our teacher, "Mad dogs fighting!" He was insulting us because we didn't understand how to be realistic and aggressive, but still have control.

[YouKnowWho]

ahhh....I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. "clack"-"clack"-"clack"-"clack"...You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,

The "三才對劍 San Cai Sword Dual" in my system, the swords hardly even touch on each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLyqCyHphx4

The 2 men form "劈手竿 hand striking pole" is just for that. Because your opponent's pole will slide along your pole, that's why the pole used to train are very big. This way since your hands cannot hold on the entire pole, when your opponent's pole slides along your pole, you will trun the pole to let your oppponent's pole to slide through.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6638/stick2g.jpg

[-N-]

I don't like TCMA 2 men forms. I prefer to design my own. This way I can adjust the distance to be more combat realistic.

Traditional 2 man from your systems don't have realistic distance???

We're supposed to be punching at least elbow deep through his face. It's his job to train his ability to get out of the way and counter.

[-N-]

The "三才對劍 San CAI Sword Dual" in my system, the swords hardly even touch on each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLyqCyHphx4

In our daggers vs. spear, spear is forced to drop his weapon or get his fingers cut off.

[YouKnowWho]

In our daggers vs. spear, spear is forced to drop his weapon or get his fingers cut off.
In my longfist system, we have Dao against spear. Back then i didn't believe that Dao would have any chance to against spear because the length. The double daggers are much shorter than the spear. :D

The same in "三才對劍 San Cai Sword Dual". At 0.13 when your opponent's sword stab at your chest, instead of using your sword to block on his sword, you step to the side, and cut on his wrist. It's also showing at 0.26, 0.27, 0.31, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GLyqCyHphx4

I'm glad that we can keep this thread going. For a while, I thought this forum had turned into WC forum or MMA forum.

[-N-]

In my longfist system, we have Dao against spear. Back then i didn't believe that Dao would have any chance to against spear because the length. The double daggers are much shorter than the spear. :D

The same in "三才對劍 San Cai Sword Dual". At 0.13 when your opponent's sword stab at your chest, instead of using your sword to block on his sword, you step to the side, and cut on his wrist. It's also showing at 0.26, 0.27, 0.31, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GLyqCyHphx4

I'm glad that we can keep this thread going. For a while, I thought this forum had turned into WC forum or MMA forum.

Most of the time it's not worth posting due to all the troll stuff.

The technical discussion can be interesting for me. But even that sometimes is just superficial and it degenerates from there. People don't seem interested in deeper detail discussion.

On the distance mismatch against spear... well that is the whole "point"(haha).

Daggers vs. Spear teaches how to have guts and go for the kill. Clear and jump the distance to spike the daggers down behind his collar bone or into his side. Not so easy when the spear keeps darting in to the face and the legs.

People ask what forms teach. That feel of how to get in can be one thing. And that is transferable to empty hand sparring as well. But only if the forms are done the right way and not like some fairy dance.

[ginosifu]

In advanced training, you can work your 2 person hand sets harder by suprizing your partner by changing random techniques in the form. Change a vertical into a hook punch, change a snap toe kick into a jump round kick, instead of retreating.... advance! etc etc.

2 person sets are geared more for performance but you get some good basic training out of them. Timing, distancing, courage and a bit of body conditioning (hitting and being hit) are always good basics.

ginosifu

[Tainan Mantis]

ahhh....I gotta disagree here. Two person weapon sets teach attacks to the weapons. "clack"-"clack"-"clack"-"clack"

There are many examples of two person weapon sets used to teach weapons attack, defense and counter.
Stick and spear strike each other.
Straight sword san cai jian is a two person weapon set that makes little contact with sword on sword.

Miao Dao Willow leaf saber is a 16 move two person weapon set used by the military in old times.


Most famous is General Qi Jiguang 8 Move two person spear.

[SPJ]

What have your teachers told you this was fr in regards to learning to fight? I have been told hand eye coordination, structure, root, developing the movements of the style were reasons I was given for 2 man forms(I personally prefer 2 women together forms, just admitting the truth here ;) ).

Is this the best way to develop all of the above? Are two man forms needed only for beginners or does everyone need them at different points?


I have been exposed to different kinds in terms of energy. For example some flowed more to develop flowy spring power, some were harder an hurt my arms, some were just two guys literally crashing into each other. Sparring did not look like Or feel like any of these which you all know.

There are many 2 man drills in all style.

In mantis, there is 3 forearm strike or san bei kao.

We strike each other with our forearm at high.

We strike each other with our forearm at low.

again and again.

In Ba Ji, there is Contact Mountain Strike or Tie Shan Kao.

We strike each other at the chest, shoulder and back.

again and again.

Forms are drills compiled to be continuous for show and tell.

Break them up and drill each move.

End of discussion.

Drill away.

:cool:

[Tainan Mantis]

-You strike the weapon, stick/slide to the hand,
or You strike the hand that holds the weapon, then the body,
or you simply go directly to the body.

That is the way that I learned it, strike the hand

while you counter with "stick to hand" etc, can't I just get my hand out of the way?

[Tainan Mantis]

The "三才對劍 San Cai Sword Dual" in my system, the swords hardly even touch on each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLyqCyHphx4



That is what I am saying.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is a segment where I show striking at knee and back in training.
Two Person Long Stick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4YknyAtQWo&feature=channel&list=UL)

[IronFist]

What's your definition of "resisting opponent"? The word "resisting" can mean 2 different things.

- Never give you a chance.

If you use me to help you to develop your striking skill, and I just run away from you. If I can run faster than you, there is no way that you can land any punch on me. What kind of striking skill can you develop by using me as your training partner?

- Always resist against your force.

If you use me as your training partner to develop your "hip throw". The moment that you touch me, the moment that I sink myself to the ground (maximum resistence). Will you be able to use me to develop your "hip throw"?

A resisting opponent is someone who tries to move out of the way or block when you strike them.

Punches from a resiting opponent will hit you if you don't block them or move out of the way. The way McDojos train where the punch will not hit you even if you don't block it is not a resisting opponent.

Here is an example of a useless training drill against a compliant (non-resisting) opponent:

http://i.imgur.com/pEKi0.jpg

The man on the right's punch would not have hit him even if he hadn't blocked it. This is an unrealistic training technique (probably part of a 10 hit combo) and is useless against a real opponent.

A resisting opponent is not compliant. If you try to apply a lock they don't willingly let you do it.

The man on the right here is not a resisting opponent. He is just sitting there letting the other guy do his 10-hit combo defense technique. This kind of training benefits no one because real opponents are going to be alive and fluid and resisting:

http://i.imgur.com/JAK4o.jpg

Another useless technique trained against a compliant opponent.

This video does not feature a resisting opponent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4W8sEFxee8

[IronFist]

Now before people intentionally misunderstand what I'm saying, I'm not saying your training partner has to try to kill or hurt you. And you should also learn new techniques slowly. But as soon as you have them, which should take maybe 10 repetitions or so, you have to start training them in an "alive" manner against a resisting opponent.

If you're learning a punch defense, you are wasting your time if the following conditions are not met:

1) the punch cannot be left out in the air for you to do a 10 hit combo (in other words, the opponent needs to realistically withdraw his punch, because no one actually fights by leaving their arm extended after a punch, so you are wasting your time doing defenses against an arm that stays extended after a punch)

2) the punch has to actually hit you if you don't block it (a real opponent will be trying to hit you, not punching the air 12 inches in front of your face)

Learn more here:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

Or here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

[YouKnowWho]

You are talking about "skill testing" and not "skill developing".

If you want me to be your training partner and help you to develop your "hip throw", how do you want me to react so I can help you the most?

[TenTigers]

as I've stated before, ippon kumite (which is what is being shown) is a beginner's drill, and should be later be replaced by more alive training, once the student is ready. Most traditional schools have ippon kumite with single or double strike counters. The ten strike dance of death is not a part of traditional training of this drill, and is usually done by "modern" kempo schools.
A caveat: Ed Parker's multiple strike combos are never done with the partner simply standing there with his fist in a lock-out posture. They usually check, trap, and control the arm, and each strike causes a body reaction (strike to the solar plexus causes the attacker to buckle, setting up for the follow-up.) The attacker is always manuvering the opponent's body, hands-on.

[bawang]

You are talking about "skill testing" and not "skill developing".

If you want me to be your training partner and help you to develop your "hip throw", how do you want me to react so I can help you the most?
like dis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22rnZ_t_ZaI

[IronFist]

as I've stated before, ippon kumite (which is what is being shown) is a beginner's drill, and should be later be replaced by more alive training, once the student is ready. Most traditional schools have ippon kumite with single or double strike counters. The ten strike dance of death is not a part of traditional training of this drill, and is usually done by "modern" kempo schools.
A caveat: Ed Parker's multiple strike combos are never done with the partner simply standing there with his fist in a lock-out posture. They usually check, trap, and control the arm, and each strike causes a body reaction (strike to the solar plexus causes the attacker to buckle, setting up for the follow-up.) The attacker is always manuvering the opponent's body, hands-on.

Alive training should be done from the beginning or you are wasting your time.

(after the student learns proper technique, I mean, so maybe like the 2nd class or so).

There is absolutely no benefit to training techniques against cooperative opponents (after you learn the motions).

[IronFist]

Here's a good pic of nonsense training:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/4812_95955642731_955998_n.jpg

Non resisting opponent, leaving arm extended, other hand down by his side.

10 hit combos!!!

It's not an issue how how deadly that strike would be, because even though I'm sure it could do a lot of damage, it's never going to happen in a fight against a resisting opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

Alive training should be done from the beginning or you are wasting your time.

(after the student learns proper technique, I mean, so maybe like the 2nd class or so).

There is absolutely no benefit to training techniques against cooperative opponents (after you learn the motions).

The key issue is "after you learn the motions". How long does it take for a student to learn the proper technique such a "hip throw"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyfnOsLP-_4

If your opponent resists to the maximum, he is helping you to train "hip throw, inner hook" combo. He is not helping you to train "hip throw". To jump from "hip throw" to "hit throw, inner hook" too soon will not help you to develop a solid foundation on your "hip throw (the mother of all throws).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56XRtBAOaps

Also if your opponent just hold on you waist, he is helping you to train "counter to hip throw counter". he is not helping you to train your hip throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVOgLt7X430

In your training path, you will need to train:

- hip throw,
- hip throw counter,
- counter to hip throw counter (2 moves combo),
- 3 moves combo,
- ...

You have to train step by step. If you move too quickly, it will not help your solid skill development. A solid "hip throw" will need at least 6 moths development time.

In the striking art training, you will also follow the same training step as:

- jab (solo),
- jab, cross (2 moves combo),
- jab, cross, hook (3 moves combo),
- jab, cross, hook, upper cut (4 moves combo),
- ...

I prefer to spend enough time to develop a solid jab before I get into cross. Trying to get into cross in my 2nd class is too soon IMO.

[TenTigers]

Alive training should be done from the beginning or you are wasting your time.

(after the student learns proper technique, I mean, so maybe like the 2nd class or so).

There is absolutely no benefit to training techniques against cooperative opponents (after you learn the motions).
sure, if you're doing very basic skillsets.
If you are looking to develop a higher skill, you need to start slower and cooperative.
Now, of course this will now start the debate of why would you even need to develop anything "higher level," in the first place, why waste time learning yadda-yadda...
Look, I've been in Martial Arts for about 40 yrs now.
I can defend myself pretty well against most people.
Then why continue to study and train? Why not simply be satisfied with boxing, and grappling, etc.
Well, if you've ever touched hands with someone who completely blew your mind, you say to yourself,"Wow. That is pretty cool. I wanna be able to do that." And there you go. Chasing skill.

For musicians, there are guys who are, "Tone Chasers." I'm one of them. I have over 20 guitars, and there are still a few that I want.
(I want a Tele, and a dot neck...)
A few years ago, I spent $3800.00 on a Gibson Les Paul Custom '57 guitar, and immediately changed the bridge, nut, pickups, and rewired it, and I'm not done. There is an elusive tone in my head and I am seeking it.
I have a plexi Marshall that still doesn't get the sound I want-so I'm swapping tubes, changing speakers, etc
Oh, btw, I don't play professionally, I used to be in bands in my youth, now I play out at blues jams.
I play pretty well, but I'm taking lessons again. Why? Because I'm a Tone Chaser.

In Gung-Fu...I'm a Skill Chaser.

[RWilson]

Here's a good pic of nonsense training:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/4812_95955642731_955998_n.jpg

Non resisting opponent, leaving arm extended, other hand down by his side.

10 hit combos!!!

It's not an issue how how deadly that strike would be, because even though I'm sure it could do a lot of damage, it's never going to happen in a fight against a resisting opponent.

Do not insult the buddha palms. All the choy Li fat gods will come down and sow choy you from the middle kingdom

[RWilson]

sure, if you're doing very basic skillsets.
If you are looking to develop a higher skill, you need to start slower and cooperative.
Now, of course this will now start the debate of why would you even need to develop anything "higher level," in the first place, why waste time learning yadda-yadda...
Look, I've been in Martial Arts for about 40 yrs now.
I can defend myself pretty well against most people.
Then why continue to study and train? Why not simply be satisfied with boxing, and grappling, etc.
Well, if you've ever touched hands with someone who completely blew your mind, you say to yourself,"Wow. That is pretty cool. I wanna be able to do that." And there you go. Chasing skill.

For musicians, there are guys who are, "Tone Chasers." I'm one of them. I have over 20 guitars, and there are still a few that I want.
(I want a Tele, and a dot neck...)
A few years ago, I spent $3800.00 on a Gibson Les Paul Custom '57 guitar, and immediately changed the bridge, nut, pickups, and rewired it, and I'm not done. There is an elusive tone in my head and I am seeking it.
I have a plexi Marshall that still doesn't get the sound I want-so I'm swapping tubes, changing speakers, etc
Oh, btw, I don't play professionally, I used to be in bands in my youth, now I play out at blues jams.
I play pretty well, but I'm taking lessons again. Why? Because I'm a Tone Chaser.

In Gung-Fu...I'm a Skill Chaser.

Even if the skill does not work in combat or has not been tested you will still chase it?

[hskwarrior]

its a pose of a technique. a single technique demonstrating a palm to the liver. its not training. you dumb fak. :rolleyes: if i can hit you i can palm you. hill billys....go figure.

10 hit combos? LMAO. fakkin hillbilly hater

rwilson....i'll sow choy your momma nacka! n if she's past on, i'll dig her up and sow choy that dome of hers right off her neck nacka.

i love when dumb nackas comment on **** they're clueless about. its a good source of laughter for me.

[RWilson]

you fakkin dumb fakin hill billy.....

its a pose of a technique. a single technique demonstrating a palm to the liver. its not training. you dumb fak. :rolleyes: if i can hit you i can palm you. hill billys....go figure.

10 hit combos? nah, thats your dad putting his hands on yer moms.

rwilson....i'll sow choy your momma nacka! n if she's past on, i'll dig her up and sow choy that dome of hers right off her neck nacka.

I said clf gods. When did you become a clf god? First you have to die and we haw to light money and baked women on fire for you.

Iron fist hates them 10 hit combos but can you blame him? There have to be better demos of budhha palm strikes.

[Raipizo]

10 hit direct combos are ineffective in real life. If you do a few strikes then take them down and do a few more I see how that would work but someone would 't stand there and take 10 punches in a row.

[TenTigers]

Even if the skill does not work in combat or has not been tested you will still chase it?

Well, I've been on the receiving end of certain techniques, so I have an idea if it would work. And yeah, there are some that don't take the technique to the extreme, but still cause enough excruciating pain, that you kinda have some faith that if it were taken all the way, there would at least be some screaming going on..
As far as the ones that are like,
"this will cause blood to burst from his eyes.." I guess I've been lucky not to ever have teachers that taught that nonsense.
You must have been sold some bill of goods to think that all TCMAists are of that ilk.

[hskwarrior]

Iron fist hates them 10 hit combos but can you blame him? There have to be better demos of budhha palm strikes.

there are definitely different palm strikes to other vital areas. i just chose to post THAT picture. everyone will just have to get over themselves. LOL

personally, i don't give a fak what he like or dislikes. who the fak is he?

i wasn't posting a demo. i posted a picture of where a strike is to be placed. its not good to learn from books when the pictures turn from pictures to actual training sessions. i don't know whats in the paper of these books, but i think i want some.

[hskwarrior]

Well, I've been on the receiving end of certain techniques, so I have an idea if it would work. And yeah, there are some that don't take the technique to the extreme, but still cause enough excruciating pain, that you kinda have some faith that if it were taken all the way, there would at least be some screaming going on..
As far as the ones that are like,
"this will cause blood to burst from his eyes.." I guess I've been lucky not to ever have teachers that taught that nonsense.
You must have been sold some bill of goods to think that all TCMAists are of that ilk.

thats what happens when you learn KUNG FU from a long line of WHITES ONLY.

[TenTigers]

10 hit direct combos are ineffective in real life. If you do a few strikes then take them down and do a few more I see how that would work but someone would 't stand there and take 10 punches in a row.

from the way I see it, ten hit combos aren't so much that you will actually hit the guy ten times, but more like learning to flow continuously from one strike to another, and generate power.
I see multiple striking like dressing for cold weather. (ever been hunting, fishing or hiking in the cold?) You dress in layers. You can always take off layers, but you can't put on what you don't have.
If all you know is a one shot deal, then if you zig when you should've zagged, or if the guy is high, or the oops factor arises, you need a follow up without hesitation.
Of course, if you took the guy out with the first strike, then obviously you wouldn't try to hold him up while you hit him several more times. Prop him up against the wall, maybe...

[TenTigers]

thats what happens when you learn KUNG FU from a long line of WHITES ONLY.
hey, some of the best teachers I've had were gwailos.
Hey..wait a minute...WE'RE GWAILOS!!!!:eek:

[hskwarrior]

hey, some of the best teachers I've had were gwailos.
Hey..wait a minute...WE'RE GWAILOS!!!!

i'm from a long line of Chinese masters....never had a white kung fu teacher in my life. don't know what thats like hahahahahaha

[RWilson]

Well, I've been on the receiving end of certain techniques, so I have an idea if it would work. And yeah, there are some that don't take the technique to the extreme, but still cause enough excruciating pain, that you kinda have some faith that if it were taken all the way, there would at least be some screaming going on..
As far as the ones that are like,
"this will cause blood to burst from his eyes.." I guess I've been lucky not to ever have teachers that taught that nonsense.
You must have been sold some bill of goods to think that all TCMAists are of that ilk.

But can the guy who did said skill on you while "touching hands" is not the same as doing it on a trained fighter. No offense. And I have no idea what "touching hands" meant in your reference. Was it sparring? How hard? Was it chi Sao like? Of it was th latter than the skill does nt really work. Can the guy pull off
the same stuff on a trained boxer?

[RWilson]

i'm from a long line of Chinese masters....never had a white kung fu teacher in my life. don't know what thats like hahahahahaha

That is racist. I have NEVER met a good Chinese fighter. Where are they hiding because these lineage holders are not sparred in local mma schools. A Chinese guy that beats up on his student, who is not really resisting, does not count. Sorry.

[hskwarrior]

Can the guy pull off
the same stuff on a trained boxer?

is that federal express or UPS? :eek:

[hskwarrior]

That is racist. I have NEVER met a good Chinese fighter. Where are they hiding because these lineage holders are not sparred in local mma schools. A Chinese guy that beats up on his student, who is not really resisting, does not count. Sorry.

you gotta get out of your box a little more often then.

[RWilson]

you gotta get out of your box a little more often then.

I am and I have not seen a chinese master in any mma school. They have too much pride and be enough balls. It is the truth.

[TenTigers]

But can the guy who did said skill on you while "touching hands" is not the same as doing it on a trained fighter. No offense. And I have no idea what "touching hands" meant in your reference. Was it sparring? How hard? Was it chi Sao like? Of it was th latter than the skill does nt really work. Can the guy pull off
the same stuff on a trained boxer?
we don't do chi-sao. this was sparring.
the guy was a boxer before he did Gung-Fu, so...um, yeah.

[RWilson]

we don't do chi-sao. this was sparring.
the guy was a boxer before he did Gung-Fu, so...um, yeah.

You do southern mantis, right? There is nothing but rolly arms in their training. You may not do wc's version but I consider any drill where you start of touching to be chi Sao. I had chi Sao with my wife every night this week so far. ;)

[hskwarrior]

I am and I have not seen a chinese master in any mma school. They have too much pride and be enough balls. It is the truth.

thats ok. it doesn't mean that person couldn't teach effective street self defense for personal protection. not everyone is going to be in the olympics nor an elite athlete. present company included. all i know and care about is if a fool steps up off the street trying to hurt me or my family, he will be handled.

me, i'm not looking for approval, nor fame. i don't care what people think. its all talk till the hands come up. only then will we know the truth.

I will say this, if ANYONE here on this forum was elite ....IRONSH!T included.....you wouldn't be wasting your time on this hell hole of a place.

[YouKnowWho]

10 hit combo ...

Here is a 8 hit combo:

1. roundhouse kick,
2. side kick,
3. left punch,
4. right punch,
5. under hook,
6. knee strike,
7. bear hug,
8. outer hook.

Not only it works against a resisting opponent, it even works twice in a role within 15 seconds. It's pre-planed combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krfr2l-TCU

[RWilson]

thats ok. it doesn't mean that person couldn't teach effective street self defense for personal protection. not everyone is going to be in the olympics nor an elite athlete. present company included. all i know and care about is if a fool steps up off the street trying to hurt me or my family, he will be handled.

me, i'm not looking for approval, nor fame. i don't care what people think. its all talk till the hands come up. only then will we know the truth.

I will say this, if ANYONE here on this forum was elite ....IRONSH!T included.....you wouldn't be wasting your time on this hell hole of a place.

All the major UFC players spend a good amount of inline dissing each other on twitter.

[hskwarrior]

Here is a 7 hit combo:

1. roundhouse kick,
2. side kick,
3. left punch,
4. right punch,
5. bear hug,
6. knee strike,
7. outer hook.

Not only it works against a resisting opponent, it even works twice in a role within 15 seconds. It's pre-planed combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krfr2l-TCU

fak, if i want to teach 20, 30, 40 or 50 hit combo's its nobody's business but mine. i also have 2, 3 and 5 hit combo's.

lets here it for 100 hit combo's!!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

All the major UFC players spend a good amount of inline dissing each other on twitter.

good for them. they need twitter to remain relevant.

[TenTigers]

You do southern mantis, right? There is nothing but rolly arms in their training. You may not do wc's version but I consider any drill where you start of touching to be chi Sao. I had chi Sao with my wife every night this week so far. ;)
Yes I do SPM as well as Hung Gar.
But..in our SPM, we do not start off touching arms or hands. Our drills are done off of punches. Jabs, crosses, hooks, haymakers, combos, etc.
There are some rolling drills that are more for strengthening and developing structure, but those aren't fighting or sparring drills, those are strictly developmental.

[YouKnowWho]

lets here it for 100 hit combo's!!!!!!

If you can create a 100 hit combo (with logic connection), you should write a book about it. It's not an easy task. In other form, I challenged everybody to create a 20 moves combo, nobody had ever accepted that challenge yet. It takes a lot of MA knowledge to be able to create some good combo.

[RWilson]

If you can create a 100 hit combo (with logic connection), you should write a book about it. It's not an easy task. In other form, I challenged everybody to create a 20 moves combo, nobody had ever accepted that challenge yet.

I have seen many 100 hit combos in tcma. They are called forms and they have no logic.

[YouKnowWho]

I have seen many 100 hit combos in tcma. They are called forms and they have no logic.

Form is not combo. A 100 moves combo means you use the

- 1st move to set up the 2nd move,
- 2nd move to set up your 3rd move,
- ...,
- 99th move to set up your 100th move.

A punch to the east followed by a punch to the north is not combo by definition. A good meaningful combo is extreamly difficult to create. You have to know how the combat work and that include kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground work.

A boxer can only create punching combo. A Judoka can only create throwing combo. The integration is not an easy task.

[Raipizo]

from the way I see it, ten hit combos aren't so much that you will actually hit the guy ten times, but more like learning to flow continuously from one strike to another, and generate power.
I see multiple striking like dressing for cold weather. (ever been hunting, fishing or hiking in the cold?) You dress in layers. You can always take off layers, but you can't put on what you don't have.
If all you know is a one shot deal, then if you zig when you should've zagged, or if the guy is high, or the oops factor arises, you need a follow up without hesitation.
Of course, if you took the guy out with the first strike, then obviously you wouldn't try to hold him up while you hit him several more times. Prop him up against the wall, maybe...

Never thought of it like that. Totally agreed.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
from the way I see it, ten hit combos aren't so much that you will actually hit the guy ten times, but more like learning to flow continuously from one strike to another, and generate power.

rik stop teaching these people man! it ain't your fault they're not hip to this.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.valisrecords.com/images/big-daddy-mugglestone/stop-following-me-web.jpg

[ginosifu]

Now before people intentionally misunderstand what I'm saying, I'm not saying your training partner has to try to kill or hurt you. And you should also learn new techniques slowly. But as soon as you have them, which should take maybe 10 repetitions or so, you have to start training them in an "alive" manner against a resisting opponent.

If you're learning a punch defense, you are wasting your time if the following conditions are not met:

1) the punch cannot be left out in the air for you to do a 10 hit combo (in other words, the opponent needs to realistically withdraw his punch, because no one actually fights by leaving their arm extended after a punch, so you are wasting your time doing defenses against an arm that stays extended after a punch)

2) the punch has to actually hit you if you don't block it (a real opponent will be trying to hit you, not punching the air 12 inches in front of your face)

I agree with you here about eventually needing to be with a resisting partner. However, 10 repititions solo is really not enough help muscle memory during practice with a resisting partner. Whether a punching drill or throwing drill or grappling drill, you need weeks maybe even months of solo drill work before partner practice.

My reasoning is that if you only do the drill a couple of times and you really don't know the movements well. You will not drill them correctly with a partner. Again..... if you want just to get on the mat and practice with a partner without learning MA properly... you are just a barroom brawler and you don't need to train in MA. I can get any meathead to grab a guy and practice a move over and over.


You do southern mantis, right? There is nothing but rolly arms in their training. You may not do wc's version but I consider any drill where you start of touching to be chi Sao. I had chi Sao with my wife every night this week so far. ;)

RWilson: You open your mouth too much without knowing all the facts. TCMA styles like Southern Mantis or Wing Chun are fighting arts like any other, there is a little long range but mostly close range combat drills (like chi sao), cardio training, strength training, flexibility training etc etc.

You like to bash TCMA without knowing what you are talking about. I do a type of Chi Sao drill for close quarter sensitivety. Beginners start out with little or no resistance, then eventually too full resistance.

This teaches you the ability to strike, trap, lock, throw from being grappled. The longer you practice the more it turns into a freestyle practice of manipulating your partner from a grappled postition.

RWilson please get a clue before you open your mouth.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

I agree with you here about eventually needing to be with a resisting partner. However, 10 repititions solo is really not enough help muscle memory during practice with a resisting partner. Whether a punching drill or throwing drill or grappling drill, you need weeks maybe even months of solo drill work before partner practice.

My reasoning is that if you only do the drill a couple of times and you really don't know the movements well. You will not drill them correctly with a partner. Again..... if you want just to get on the mat and practice with a partner without learning MA properly... you are just a barroom brawler and you don't need to train in MA. I can get any meathead to grab a guy and practice a move over and over.



RWilson: You open your mouth too much without knowing all the facts. TCMA styles like Southern Mantis or Wing Chun are fighting arts like any other, there is a little long range but mostly close range combat drills (like chi sao), cardio training, strength training, flexibility training etc etc.

You like to bash TCMA without knowing what you are talking about. I do a type of Chi Sao drill for close quarter sensitivety. Beginners start out with little or no resistance, then eventually too full resistance.

This teaches you the ability to strike, trap, lock, throw from being grappled. The longer you practice the more it turns into a freestyle practice of manipulating your partner from a grappled postition.

RWilson please get a clue before you open your mouth.

ginosifu

They are "fighting" arts in that they might help(a big might) you in a street fight against a non-fighter but they will not work in the ring against a skilled opponent.



For wrestling you need months of cooperatove partner drills to master the skills. You do NOT need months of solo form drilling before progressing.

[ginosifu]

They are "fighting" arts in that they might help(a big might) you in a street fight against a non-fighter but they will not work in the ring against a skilled opponent.


For wrestling you need months of cooperatove partner drills to master the skills. You do NOT need months of solo form drilling before progressing.

How do you know they may or may not work in the street? Again you speak without knowing... you are just guessing. How do you know if they will or will not work against a skilled opponent in the ring? You are ASSuming... that's where you make an a$$ out of yourself.

Pure on the ground wrestling has very few solo drills. Most all drills are cooperative partner practices. How do I know you say? I started High School wrestling at the age of 12. After High school I went a YMCA (another 4 years) where a Freestyle wrestling coach taught me Freestyle in exchange for me to teach his student High school style.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

IN classical kenjutsu, like the Yagyu school I studied and the Tenshin Shoden Katori SHinot Ryu, two man sets are the bulk of training.
They are pre-arranged and the moves are highly choreographed and only the people doing it KNOW what is going on.
This was done for various reasons, secrecy of course being the primary.
You really can't go freestyle with wooden swords, for obvious reasons and the bamboo shinai take away lots of the exercise and impact reasons of the forms.
In short, there ARE reasons to do two-man forms and many are valid.
You just have to make sure you are doing them for THOSE reasons and, quite honesty, there is no real reason to do two-man forms in regards to empty hand combat other than helping out beginners and for performance.

[TenTigers]

arm drag drill
pummeling
plam
more rolly ineffective drills...?:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

arm drag drill
pummeling
plam
more rolly ineffective drills...?:p

The only issue MAY be that most co-operative drills do their best to mimick "real life" fighting and, typically, two-man sets do not.
Too much over stylized attacking and countering.

[Frost]

arm drag drill
pummeling
plam
more rolly ineffective drills...?:p

ask most wrestlers and they will tell you pummeling (as in swimming is a watse of time)
but arm drag drills, clinch work and Plum drilling over a degree of uncertaintly that two man sets dont, ie whhen i drill arm drags we will pummel and isolate the arm drag but you dont know when your opponent will hit the move, you just know he will
Same with neck swimming drills, you might isolate the movemebnt but its still alive and unpredictable within that context

[YouKnowWho]

For wrestling you need months of cooperatove partner drills to master the skills. You do NOT need months of solo form drilling before progressing.
Agree with you 100% there.

In my class, we don't do any solo form training. When those guys in the following clip trained their 2 men drills, they had not been taught how the "hip throw solo drill" suppose to look like. The reason is simple. Where do you place your hands and legs depend on your oponent's body position and not depend on yourself. The solo drill is taught later so people can "polish" their skill at home when partner is not available. When you haven't developed that technique, there is nothing to polish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyfnOsLP-_4

[IronFist]

I agree with you here about eventually needing to be with a resisting partner. However, 10 repititions solo is really not enough help muscle memory during practice with a resisting partner. Whether a punching drill or throwing drill or grappling drill, you need weeks maybe even months of solo drill work before partner practice.

My reasoning is that if you only do the drill a couple of times and you really don't know the movements well. You will not drill them correctly with a partner. Again..... if you want just to get on the mat and practice with a partner without learning MA properly... you are just a barroom brawler and you don't need to train in MA. I can get any meathead to grab a guy and practice a move over and over.


As long as we're in agreement that, once you have the movements down, however long that takes, continuing to train them with cooperative opponents is a waste of time :)

Maybe 10 reps for a hip throw was an underestimation.

[Raipizo]

As long as we're in agreement that, once you have the movements down, however long that takes, continuing to train them with cooperative opponents is a waste of time :)

Maybe 10 reps for a hip throw was an underestimation.

Yes but drilling the, also at home such as like shadow boxing is important too

[RWilson]

There are 8 stages of training and these are lost except for two or three Chinese arts. This is what brings you from stationary to full contact with multiple opponents. If training like this isn't in your future, then your martial art is dead and the sets are antiquated.

Every set is done with weapons. Hands and power generation are both incidental and obvious after weapon training. No matter what you are holding you still need to move to get into range or to create range. This is true with a knife as much as a rifle.

Two man sets are filled with footwork. The lines of chop sockey blocks and chops that go linearly are lies. Jackie Chan film fluries of blocks look good on film, but they aren't for fighting.

Footwork counters are very important for combat. That is what two man sets really about. Doesn't matter what weapon you have.

Look at a bagua, Taiji, Xing yi or Baji two man form. You can do them while holding weapons and it makes no difference. Now look at most mantis forms.

I can pick up a set in 10 minutes. To understand it takes a few years and to master it takes at least 10 if you are moving in the right direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2VEjF6Ru0k Blatant lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuFFbpawFSg Half truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30heDQrSh5M Truth


Andy, the last clip you posted as "truth" looks nice but is not real. Does the teacher have any video of himself doing that on resisting opponents or is it all just arm hanging demos?

[YouKnowWho]

Demo is not sparring/wrestling.

Demo is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity. The real part is you have to finish it.

If your opponent doesn't give you that opportunity, that's sparring/wrestling.

The following clip is wrestling and not demo. You can see both guys tried very hard not to let the other guy to get a hold on him (resisting opponents).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8fLJzb8XzY

[IronFist]

Yes but drilling the, also at home such as like shadow boxing is important too

Agreed.

(message too short)

[IronFist]

There are 8 stages of training and these are lost except for two or three Chinese arts. This is what brings you from stationary to full contact with multiple opponents. If training like this isn't in your future, then your martial art is dead and the sets are antiquated.

Every set is done with weapons. Hands and power generation are both incidental and obvious after weapon training. No matter what you are holding you still need to move to get into range or to create range. This is true with a knife as much as a rifle.

Two man sets are filled with footwork. The lines of chop sockey blocks and chops that go linearly are lies. Jackie Chan film fluries of blocks look good on film, but they aren't for fighting.

Footwork counters are very important for combat. That is what two man sets really about. Doesn't matter what weapon you have.

Look at a bagua, Taiji, Xing yi or Baji two man form. You can do them while holding weapons and it makes no difference. Now look at most mantis forms.

I can pick up a set in 10 minutes. To understand it takes a few years and to master it takes at least 10 if you are moving in the right direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2VEjF6Ru0k Blatant lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuFFbpawFSg Half truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30heDQrSh5M Truth

All three of those vids had nothing to do with real fighting.

The first one was just a dance.

The second one had flashy techniques that don't work on resisting opponents.

The third one was strike, pause with arm extended while waiting for the instructor to do a cool counter move.

Who started this whole "leave the arm extended after you strike" nonsense? No one actually fights like that but every McDojo I've seen trains like that.

No wonder McDojo sparring looks like kickboxing; no one knows what the hell they're supposed to do when their opponent actually retracts his punches.

[Frost]

sure, if you're doing very basic skillsets.
If you are looking to develop a higher skill, you need to start slower and cooperative.
Now, of course this will now start the debate of why would you even need to develop anything "higher level," in the first place, why waste time learning yadda-yadda...
Look, I've been in Martial Arts for about 40 yrs now.
I can defend myself pretty well against most people.
Then why continue to study and train? Why not simply be satisfied with boxing, and grappling, etc.
Well, if you've ever touched hands with someone who completely blew your mind, you say to yourself,"Wow. That is pretty cool. I wanna be able to do that." And there you go. Chasing skill.

For musicians, there are guys who are, "Tone Chasers." I'm one of them. I have over 20 guitars, and there are still a few that I want.
(I want a Tele, and a dot neck...)
A few years ago, I spent $3800.00 on a Gibson Les Paul Custom '57 guitar, and immediately changed the bridge, nut, pickups, and rewired it, and I'm not done. There is an elusive tone in my head and I am seeking it.
I have a plexi Marshall that still doesn't get the sound I want-so I'm swapping tubes, changing speakers, etc
Oh, btw, I don't play professionally, I used to be in bands in my youth, now I play out at blues jams.
I play pretty well, but I'm taking lessons again. Why? Because I'm a Tone Chaser.

In Gung-Fu...I'm a Skill Chaser.

Is post like this that really annoy me…….it makes kung fu sound special and different from other sporting endeavours or physical skill sets and this is just wrong. As for the implication in the post that boxing and grappling are very basic …well that shows both arrogance and ignorance

Ive touched hands with a guy like this (a few actually), one that comes straight to mind is Kenny Johnson, he developed his skills the same way any other wrestler does (drilling and sparring live) and whilst his wrestling might be a basic skill set according to you he can still do things that make people go wow
If you want a higher skill set (what ever the feck that means) you develop it the same way you do a basic skillset, you simply introduce it at a time and level its appropriate

I can teach a new person the basics of the guard: how to pummel with the upper body, control weight with the lower limbs, climb their legs up, regain guard if trying to pass etc within a 20 minute session, then have them drilling alive with various resistance straight after this, and have them sparring live and using that skill within the first class. Will they be perfect first time out, no but they will get better in time and the introduction phase probably won’t be repeated again other than a quick recap, they will isolate the position and spar from there at various resistance levels, and integrate it into their overall game that way.
Now if I took that same person and tried to teach them the x guard they wouldn’t get it at all, they haven’t got the basics down yet of the normal guard or basic attacks down yet so its pointless teaching them something advanced before they are ready…but once they are ready the same process should be followed, introduce isolate and them integrate, which is what you do in any sport.

If you try to introduce something you consider higher level and change the way its taught because you think its special; so you train slower and more cooperative and for longer then you will simply miss the most important part of training: learning timing and how to overcome resistance, and once you introduce those things you will find you are behind the curve because the skills you thought you developed simply wont work once the cooperation is removed.

[ginosifu]

The third one was strike, pause with arm extended while waiting for the instructor to do a cool counter move.

Who started this whole "leave the arm extended after you strike" nonsense? No one actually fights like that but every McDojo I've seen trains like that.

No wonder McDojo sparring looks like kickboxing; no one knows what the hell they're supposed to do when their opponent actually retracts his punches.


Andy, the last clip you posted as "truth" looks nice but is not real. Does the teacher have any video of himself doing that on resisting opponents or is it all just arm hanging demos?

In his defense.... this is demonstrative video.... going slow on purpose to explain the movement. Also if he was teaching beginners, it would be taught slow with no resistance until the student has the drill down and muscle memory can take over. Then they should start partner resistance.

ginosifu

[Subitai]

Form is not combo. A 100 moves combo means you use the

- 1st move to set up the 2nd move,
- 2nd move to set up your 3rd move,
- ...,
- 99th move to set up your 100th move.

A punch to the east followed by a punch to the north is not combo by definition. A good meaningful combo is extreamly difficult to create. You have to know how the combat work and that include kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground work.

A boxer can only create punching combo. A Judoka can only create throwing combo. The integration is not an easy task.

I have to say something...specifically about you last sentence.

Who says a boxer can only punch? Don't forget that making your man miss is a valid defence and also part of a strategy set up. Also, to clinch and spin or whirl your opponent. Never mind Head Jam, elbows and glove rakes. ect ect

I hope you were being "generic" when you wrote that last sentence, because other wise you really DON'T understand boxing.

Don't get me started on Judo... it can only THROW??????


What is wrong with your premise of a long extended combo is that:

= Humans are unpredictable and you can't or shouldn't expect them to move the same way 100 moves down the line. IF they do, then they are just cooperating off memory similar to a drill or a 2 man set.

End result, you end up with a big similar mess. Why do that?


In truth for "stand up striking", most people can only handle an engagment with a Beat of time similar to a 1 or 1-2 count. Bam.... Bam-Bam. Beginers will start to panic after that 2nd hit when 3 begins to come thier way.

To start, I always teach to hit in 3's. Obviously closing the gap is essential.

It takes allot more skill to be brave and skilled enough ( Notice I said it IN THAT ORDER) to able to calmly engage with an aggressive opponent in tight for consecutive beats of time after 3.


The more you get into 4-5 & 6 ... The more likely someone is hit by that point, and/or definately the range has Closed. Other wise, one them is on thier BIKE if you follow me? Or it has now changed to standing grappling and eventually to a takedown.

If it hasn't at that point, then it's either sport or they're are being Cooperative. (not that drilling is a bad thing mind you :)

Hence why attempting a 100 move combo is silly imo.

[IronFist]

Is post like this that really annoy me…….it makes kung fu sound special and different from other sporting endeavours or physical skill sets and this is just wrong. As for the implication in the post that boxing and grappling are very basic …well that shows both arrogance and ignorance

Ive touched hands with a guy like this (a few actually), one that comes straight to mind is Kenny Johnson, he developed his skills the same way any other wrestler does (drilling and sparring live) and whilst his wrestling might be a basic skill set according to you he can still do things that make people go wow
If you want a higher skill set (what ever the feck that means) you develop it the same way you do a basic skillset, you simply introduce it at a time and level its appropriate

I can teach a new person the basics of the guard: how to pummel with the upper body, control weight with the lower limbs, climb their legs up, regain guard if trying to pass etc within a 20 minute session, then have them drilling alive with various resistance straight after this, and have them sparring live and using that skill within the first class. Will they be perfect first time out, no but they will get better in time and the introduction phase probably won’t be repeated again other than a quick recap, they will isolate the position and spar from there at various resistance levels, and integrate it into their overall game that way.
Now if I took that same person and tried to teach them the x guard they wouldn’t get it at all, they haven’t got the basics down yet of the normal guard or basic attacks down yet so its pointless teaching them something advanced before they are ready…but once they are ready the same process should be followed, introduce isolate and them integrate, which is what you do in any sport.

If you try to introduce something you consider higher level and change the way its taught because you think its special; so you train slower and more cooperative and for longer then you will simply miss the most important part of training: learning timing and how to overcome resistance, and once you introduce those things you will find you are behind the curve because the skills you thought you developed simply wont work once the cooperation is removed.

Fantastic post.

[TenTigers]

ask most wrestlers and they will tell you pummeling (as in swimming is a watse of time)
but arm drag drills, clinch work and Plum drilling over a degree of uncertaintly that two man sets dont, ie whhen i drill arm drags we will pummel and isolate the arm drag but you dont know when your opponent will hit the move, you just know he will
Same with neck swimming drills, you might isolate the movemebnt but its still alive and unpredictable within that context
sorry if my sarcasm was lost on you in this post.
I am in agreement with you, that they are indeed viable drills.

[TenTigers]

Is post like this that really annoy me…….it makes kung fu sound special and different from other sporting endeavours or physical skill sets and this is just wrong. As for the implication in the post that boxing and grappling are very basic …well that shows both arrogance and ignorance

Ive touched hands with a guy like this (a few actually), one that comes straight to mind is Kenny Johnson, he developed his skills the same way any other wrestler does (drilling and sparring live) and whilst his wrestling might be a basic skill set according to you he can still do things that make people go wow
If you want a higher skill set (what ever the feck that means) you develop it the same way you do a basic skillset, you simply introduce it at a time and level its appropriate

I can teach a new person the basics of the guard: how to pummel with the upper body, control weight with the lower limbs, climb their legs up, regain guard if trying to pass etc within a 20 minute session, then have them drilling alive with various resistance straight after this, and have them sparring live and using that skill within the first class. Will they be perfect first time out, no but they will get better in time and the introduction phase probably won’t be repeated again other than a quick recap, they will isolate the position and spar from there at various resistance levels, and integrate it into their overall game that way.
Now if I took that same person and tried to teach them the x guard they wouldn’t get it at all, they haven’t got the basics down yet of the normal guard or basic attacks down yet so its pointless teaching them something advanced before they are ready…but once they are ready the same process should be followed, introduce isolate and them integrate, which is what you do in any sport.

If you try to introduce something you consider higher level and change the way its taught because you think its special; so you train slower and more cooperative and for longer then you will simply miss the most important part of training: learning timing and how to overcome resistance, and once you introduce those things you will find you are behind the curve because the skills you thought you developed simply wont work once the cooperation is removed.
I think you misunderstood my point.
The term "high level" causes a knee-jerk reaction in some, because they seem to think that TCMAists think it is some magical power. (well, ok some actually do...but we're all not drinking ch'i-infused kool-aid) The truth is, it's nothing special.

The real difference in "high level" and um, not..is the degree of skill, closing gaps in distance and timing,power generation, etc.

Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers explained it to me like this:
Take for instance the legendary Wong Yun-Lum of Hop Ga fame.
This style is known for its angling of the body while striking.
He was able to take this to a higher level-most likely because he himself was talented. Not many Hop-Ga people can do this skill to such a high degree.
It can be compared to slipping and dodging, bob and weave, etc.
Sure, all boxers do it, but how many are able to be Prince Naseem?
Wong Yun-Lum like was the Prince Nassem of his day. He took a skill and developed it to a "high level."

Short power is in many systems-we've all seen a short hook punch, nothing magical. Some people simply take this particular skill and work it so that it seems extraordinary.

Ali was able to play rope a dope. He was able to take some incredible hard shots, that most boxers simply could not. I guess we could say he had "iron body skills," but you see...it's just a name, nothing to get excited about. Don't place so much importance on it.
Not every TCMAist looks at it as magical, simply something that is developed to an above average degree, that not everyone can achieve.(unless they devote the time-which not many are willing to do), hence the term, "high level."

I also didn't say that you need to train something slower and more cooperative past the developmental/ learning stage. You simply assumed this is what I meant. I am in complete agreement with you.

[YouKnowWho]

I hope you were being "generic" when you wrote that last sentence, because other wise you really DON'T understand boxing.

Don't get me started on Judo... it can only THROW??????
- Can a boxer throw?
- Can a Judo guy punch?

I have not seen any boxer wrestled on the mat, or any Judoka fought in boxing ring yet.

Of course with "cross train", everything will be possible.

[Subitai]

- Can a boxer throw?
- Can a Judo guy punch?

I have not seen any boxer wrestled on the mat, or any Judoka fought in boxing ring yet.

Of course with "cross train", everything will be possible.

It's not about cross training...it's about the tools, skills and weapons that the 2 styles you listed above inherently already have.

I gave a good explaination in my previous post. I'm alittle in disbelief as to how you could read that and still just boil it down to just simple punching and throwing.

I also commented on your 100 combo request as to why nobody has done it.


As per your comment about not seeing boxers wrestle or judo guys boxing.... Again i'm amazed as these comments. You virtually answer your own questions.

I'm starting to believe that you really lack the understanding of what these arts do and how they train.

It is to state the completely obvious that a real boxer doesn't grapple. That is not thier training mind set and definately in sport boxing...they are told to break and start again.

Have you not learned the OLD saying....NEver box a boxer ????

Same for the judo man in reverse. WHY as a judo player would I go into a boxers house and try to box with him? Of course not, rather I would do what I do best and avoid that nonsense.

[Lucas]

modern judo is a bit removed from old budo but traditionally a japanese warrior will be trained in all areas of combat, from striking, grappling, melee weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, horsemanship, etc. that is why in judo kata you still see the remnants via striking training, its just not a focus. but most judoka will be able to strike still.

[Subitai]

modern judo is a bit removed from old budo but traditionally a japanese warrior will be trained in all areas of combat, from striking, grappling, melee weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, horsemanship, etc. that is why in judo kata you still see the remnants via striking training, its just not a focus. but most judoka will be able to strike still.

Exactly, I didn't go into detail about Judo because it doesn't need to be said...they have many more tools than just "THROWING".

And the same as I said on page 7.... and boxers do more than just punch.

Basically, I was trying to address this comment:

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
"A boxer can only create punching combo. A Judoka can only create throwing combo. The integration is not an easy task."

[YouKnowWho]

Basically, I was trying to address this comment:

You are tring to find a piece of bone inside an egg.

[Frost]

I think you misunderstood my point.
The term "high level" causes a knee-jerk reaction in some, because they seem to think that TCMAists think it is some magical power. (well, ok some actually do...but we're all not drinking ch'i-infused kool-aid) The truth is, it's nothing special.

The real difference in "high level" and um, not..is the degree of skill, closing gaps in distance and timing,power generation, etc.

Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers explained it to me like this:
Take for instance the legendary Wong Yun-Lum of Hop Ga fame.
This style is known for its angling of the body while striking.
He was able to take this to a higher level-most likely because he himself was talented. Not many Hop-Ga people can do this skill to such a high degree.
It can be compared to slipping and dodging, bob and weave, etc.
Sure, all boxers do it, but how many are able to be Prince Naseem?
Wong Yun-Lum like was the Prince Nassem of his day. He took a skill and developed it to a "high level."

Short power is in many systems-we've all seen a short hook punch, nothing magical. Some people simply take this particular skill and work it so that it seems extraordinary.

Ali was able to play rope a dope. He was able to take some incredible hard shots, that most boxers simply could not. I guess we could say he had "iron body skills," but you see...it's just a name, nothing to get excited about. Don't place so much importance on it.
Not every TCMAist looks at it as magical, simply something that is developed to an above average degree, that not everyone can achieve.(unless they devote the time-which not many are willing to do), hence the term, "high level."

I also didn't say that you need to train something slower and more cooperative past the developmental/ learning stage. You simply assumed this is what I meant. I am in complete agreement with you.

but said skill is not developed by long cooperative drilling and should not take any longer to introduce as any other skill...case in point , Prince Nazeem, he spent the same amount of time learning slipping and moving at the introduction phase as anyone else, his high level skill came from rounds of sparring and drilling, thats where his timing and ability came from NOT from some extended period of cooperative and slow drilling. You need to start slow and cooperative with every skill, and every skill should take the same amount of time to introduce to people, its in the sparring and fighting that the high level skills are developed

[IronFist]

modern judo is a bit removed from old budo but traditionally a japanese warrior will be trained in all areas of combat, from striking, grappling, melee weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, horsemanship, etc. that is why in judo kata you still see the remnants via striking training, its just not a focus. but most judoka will be able to strike still.

There are kata in judo?

Can you describe them?

I have no experience with judo other than what I've seen in the Olympics (people trying to throw each other and then randomly getting stopped vs. being allowed to grapple). I didn't know throwing/grappling arts had kata.

[Lucas]

well there are but honestly i dont have experience in them either. i think sanjuro has some experience with them. my sensei actually doesnt teach the kata its all just live training.

[Subitai]

You are tring to find a piece of bone inside an egg.

Hahaha, yes... with you i'm starting to think so my friend.

But alas as I am Filipino, you must know that when we eat Balut (a duck or chicken partially developed fetus from embryo)

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/attachments/eatting-filipino-balut-2019d1308525737-balut1.jpg

There are some bones in the egg!!! ;)

[GeneChing]

Excuse me now while I go puke.

:o

[Sima Rong]

There are kata in judo?

Can you describe them?

I have no experience with judo other than what I've seen in the Olympics (people trying to throw each other and then randomly getting stopped vs. being allowed to grapple). I didn't know throwing/grappling arts had kata.


Don't know too much about judo/grappling. Used to do Shorinji Kempo for a few years though.

I would have thought that allowing your partner to do a technique on you a few times for the purpose of practice before trying to apply that technique in a more live fashion was kata. Many traditional jujutsu techniques are trained with two person kata, right?

There was judo solo kata in a book I had once. It was an exercise for ground and grip positioning I think. Can't remember that name of that book..full of black and white photos. (A reminder not to lend books too freely)

[Lucas]

judo kata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7vdLP71BAI

http://aschantepiejudo.comze.com/Images/Techniques/JuNoKata/junoKata2_ryoKataOshi.jpg

[Lucas]

Excuse me now while I go puke.

:o

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Inside_a_Balut_-_Embryo_and_Yolk.jpg/200px-Inside_a_Balut_-_Embryo_and_Yolk.jpg

[pazman]

There are kata in judo?

Can you describe them?

I have no experience with judo other than what I've seen in the Olympics (people trying to throw each other and then randomly getting stopped vs. being allowed to grapple). I didn't know throwing/grappling arts had kata.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo_kata#Kata_.28forms.29

The kata of Japanese martial arts are almost exclusively two person technique demonstrations, a major exception being Iaido.

You can research a little on your own, but many of the kata developed by Kano were meant to preserve traditional techniques of jujutsu that were difficult or unsafe to practice in randori.

The purpose of kata, traditionally, were two-fold:
1) contain a formalized way of practicing and preserving basic techniques. These would be a starting point for live drills or wrestling.
2) contain a catalog of advanced, specific, or "trick" techniques, whereby the student was never intended to master, but after learning it could choose several that suited him to learn in a more in depth way. For example, the nage no kata contain 15 techniques, but I would be very surprised to find a Judo master who could use all 15 in a real randori match. Instead, the kata is taught to the student and the student is free to explore other techniques that the coach may not have mastered.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To expand on what has been said about Judo kata:
Kata were traditonally the way things were done before some ryu ( schools) started randori ( free exercise) and no, Judo wasn't the first to do this but Kano got it from his experience with the Kito Ryu.
Kano retianed them because he saw that, while the majority of techniques can be done in randori, the more dangerous ones and the more "self protection" oriented ones ( weapons for example) couldn't.
So he believed ( and was correct) that by building the core attributes in randori VS resisting opponents, those skills would carry over when applying the more dangerous stuff even if that stuff was drilled in a co-operative manner.
What happened was that as judo became more and more sport oriented, the self-protection element took a back seat until it was simply used as a "grading element" for traditions sake.


The key lesson here is that YES, there is such a thing as the "too deadly" and yes it must be trained in a more controlled way BUT for it to be effective the attributes need to used them MUST be trained in a "randori" type environment.