Talk about forms being useless

[edward]

Thought I'd discuss the value of forms....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fsAVLMPeBA&sns=em

[GlennR]

Excellent Vid Ed

[imperialtaichi]

Forms are not useless. Dead Forms are useless.

[Matt_WCK]

Forms are not useless. Dead Forms are useless.

Agree. A form which is simply a sequence of movements is utterly pointless - the practitioner has to understand each and every motion, practice it with the correct energy and intent as well as the positioning and flow from one technique to another.

At a seminar in London with UK Grandmaster Samuel Kwok last year, he related the story of someone who had asked him about Siu Lim Tao and how slowly/how often the form was practiced. This student was basically practicing the form hundreds of times but couldn't feel any benefit or improvement to their structures.

He basically said that if someone practiced the tan/wu/fuk - fuk/wu/fuk motions every day, several times a day but without the correct emphasis on each technique then their training would be useless. One needed to 'feel' the elbow position and forward intent (even when withdrawing the wu).

This is why the actual sequence of movements is largely irrelevant and any differences between lineages don't affect the actual practice one way or another.

Any other gain (cardio/muscular development etc) is a byproduct of practicing a physical movement set and not the primary intention (there are plenty of more efficient ways to train for cardio/muscular development etc)

[Yoshiyahu]

Forms do alot of things...

From what i learn from the forms is this


Muscle memory of shapes and techniques!

Different relaxation and comfort in the horse while utilizing hand techniques and kicks!

Learning and Discovering how the forms translate into actual application!

Being able to practice my WC when i dont have a partner!

and much more...

[edward]

it sure does

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms are not useless and can serve many purposes.
What a practitioner has to do is practice the form(s) with a specific goal in mind that relates to the form.

[Eric_H]

IMO, all forms are dead.

Wing Chun is only brought alive through drilling and (ideally) sparring.

Forms are a great way to keep together a curriculum, provide some form of visualization (important in sports/physical training) but those values can also be found elsewhere.

[SAAMAG]

The only thing more useless than forms....is the discussion of the usefulness of forms. :p

[Yoshiyahu]

practicing forms can give you ideas...also freestyling with the techniques from the forms ie shadow boxing can increase your skill greatly...especially when you get using certain techniques in a non-ordered way...

[Happy Tiger]

VT forms offer to me a great reference for self correction. Every time I do a form, especially SNT, she reminds me and eases my VT back to factory specs and continues to fine tune what's already there, to the smallest detail awry. The idea of sequence value is interesting.

[JPinAZ]

also freestyling with the techniques from the forms ie shadow boxing can increase your skill greatly...especially when you get using certain techniques in a non-ordered way...

How do you personally measure this? How can doing techniques in the air 'increase your skill greatly'?? Skill at what? At shadow boxing? Or are you talking about applicable skills in fighting? And, can you back up this calim with actual experience?

I'll admit shadow boxing has it's place, but the actual applicable fighting skills it develops is small in comparison to actually sparring, or at the least, partner training. I would be cautious listening to anyone that says these types of thing have such 'great' benifit as you are saying here..

[Kellen Bassette]

How do you personally measure this? How can doing techniques in the air 'increase your skill greatly'?? Skill at what? At shadow boxing? Or are you talking about applicable skills in fighting? And, can you back up this calim with actual experience?

I'll admit shadow boxing has it's place, but the actual applicable fighting skills it develops is small in comparison to actually sparring, or at the least, partner training. I would be cautious listening to anyone that says these types of thing have such 'great' benifit as you are saying here..

Shadow boxing is very valuable; (and hence used by virtually all striking based competitive fighting), because it's too difficult to develop good form while sparring, especially if your really going hard.

Your technique when sparring/fighting is not going to be as proper as when shadowboxing, (or practicing forms). You train perfect technique so you will have good technique when you fight. Train good technique, your moves may be decent when you fight, train decent technique your probably going to be sloppy and train sloppy technique your form while fighting is going to suck. If you neglect this type of training your technique will suffer, in fact you'll probably end up with a lot of sloppy swinging when you go full contact.

You practice in the air, to develop proper form. You train with a partner to work the timing. You train on the bags, or with other resistance to develop power, then you spar to learn to use it against an unwilling opponent.

I think perfecting form, be it shadowboxing, or forms in the traditional sense, is a never ending part of training. Why do you think pro fighters have coaches? They could easily beat their coaches, but they need an experienced person watching, commenting when they drop their hands, or get lazy with a technique, or just see something the fighter doesn't notice. This is why mirrors in MA schools are so common. Not for looking at yourself while sparring, but for constantly checking the form of your technique.

Just don't forget to partner drill, hit bags, and spar....

[YouKnowWho]

How can doing techniques in the air 'increase your skill greatly'?? ..

The solo thin air training can only "polish" your skill. It cannot "develop" your skill. If you have not "developed" any skill, there is nothing to "polish". It will turn into "performance" only.

[deejaye72]

there was a time in my life, where i was working so much i couldn't come to class for two months. all i did was practice siu nim tao, when i came back my hands were better at chi sao, sparring and all the drills!

i never could quite figure it out, but my dad always said, you always go back to siu nim tao to fix your hands when you are having problems with your wing chun.a friend of mine who trained with sifu francis fong experienced the same thing! go figure

although i experienced that, i'm very practical minded and, the only way to get really good at wing chun is with a partner, or with any fighting method.

[Ozzy Dave]

The solo thin air training can only "polish" your skill. It cannot "develop" your skill. If you have not "developed" any skill, there is nothing to "polish". It will turn into "performance" only.

I agree to a certain extent but that IMO is the difference between gung fa and quan fa but in all fairness its not so clear cut as many TCMA have gung fa in their tao lu.

Wing Chun is no exception so in the end forms are still an integral part of training.

Dave

[YouKnowWho]

The solo form practice does not equal to combat practice.

2 men combat require

1. 时间 timing,
2. 机会 opportunity,
3. 角度 angle,
4. 力的使用 force,
5. 平横 balance.

Only force and balance may have to do with "solo form practice". But to strike into the thin air is different than to strike on solid object. To maintain your ownbody balance is also different from to operate on your opponent's body and still maintain your own balance.

Without "opponent" as your reference point, how do you know:

- When to strike (timing)?
- Where to strike (opportunity)?
- Which direction to strike (angle)?

When there is no opponent, the timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning at all.

[Bacon]

My sifu has a saying. "Siu lim tao teaches you the letters. Chum kiu teaches basic words and biu jee more complex ones. Chi sau, lap sau, and pak sau teach you basic sentences, and sparring teaches you how to speak."

The point is that each builds upon the other. The forms teach structure at first, then coordinated movement and more complex hand forms, power output, etc. The drills teach you how to use those in a controlled environment and sparring you finally get to apply them full bore. If you remove the forms it's like removing the foundation of a skyscraper.

I've seen what not practicing forms does to some of my wing chun brethren and it's not pretty.

[Ozzy Dave]

The solo form practice does not equal to combat practice.

2 men combat require

1. 时间 timing,
2. 机会 opportunity,
3. 角度 angle,
4. 力的使用 force,
5. 平横 balance.

Only force and balance may have to do with "solo form practice". But to strike into the thin air is different than to strike on solid object. To maintain your ownbody balance is also different from to operate on your opponent's body and still maintain your own balance.

Without "opponent" as your reference point, how do you know:

- When to strike (timing)?
- Where to strike (opportunity)?
- Which direction to strike (angle)?

When there is no opponent, the timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning at all.

I'm not saying that forms practise of any description equals combat practise but on the flip side two man sparring or free exercise practise by itself does not necessarily prepare one for a sudden surprise assault either.

I'm also not saying that striking into thin air alone is preparation for applying percussive technique, however form in Wing Chun does initiate the development of certain gung fa specific to the system and therefore is an important element in the total training approach of someone who adopts Wing Chun.

Every TCMA has its own way of developing attributes for combat.

Wing Chun has its way.

Timing, opportunity, balance and angle are initially developed and explored in chi sao and / or other paired exercises.

Force is largely exercised on the muk jong.


If you remove the forms it's like removing the foundation of a skyscraper.

Agreed

Dave

[Fa Xing]

The solo form practice does not equal to combat practice.

2 men combat require

1. 时间 timing,
2. 机会 opportunity,
3. 角度 angle,
4. 力的使用 force,
5. 平横 balance.

Only force and balance may have to do with "solo form practice". But to strike into the thin air is different than to strike on solid object. To maintain your ownbody balance is also different from to operate on your opponent's body and still maintain your own balance.

Without "opponent" as your reference point, how do you know:

- When to strike (timing)?
- Where to strike (opportunity)?
- Which direction to strike (angle)?

When there is no opponent, the timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning at all.

Great post! Particularly the last part, because it doesn't matter what your intention is during a form, if you have never trained against a non-cooperative, resisting opponent, then it is just dry-land swimming.

Anyone else feel like this is just beating the bones of a dead horse?

[trubblman]

My sifu has a saying. "Siu lim tao teaches you the letters. Chum kiu teaches basic words and biu jee more complex ones. Chi sau, lap sau, and pak sau teach you basic sentences, and sparring teaches you how to speak."


How peculiar! I knew how to speak using words long before I knew my letters.

[Fa Xing]

My sifu has a saying. "Siu lim tao teaches you the letters. Chum kiu teaches basic words and biu jee more complex ones. Chi sau, lap sau, and pak sau teach you basic sentences, and sparring teaches you how to speak."

The point is that each builds upon the other. The forms teach structure at first, then coordinated movement and more complex hand forms, power output, etc. The drills teach you how to use those in a controlled environment and sparring you finally get to apply them full bore. If you remove the forms it's like removing the foundation of a skyscraper.

I've seen what not practicing forms does to some of my wing chun brethren and it's not pretty.

I'm sure that your Sifu has an important point with that, but speech usually precedes learning letters, sentences, etc. Humans developed spoken language far before they developed written language, so the analogy doesn't work.

[Bacon]

I'm sure that your Sifu has an important point with that, but speech usually precedes learning letters, sentences, etc. Humans developed spoken language far before they developed written language, so the analogy doesn't work.

That's inconsequential. The point is showing how each levels builds upon the next to eventually create a functional system.

If you want it to be linguistically accurate it would go phonemes -> morphemes -> basic conjugations -> sentences -> conversation but again this is besides the point and since most don't know what phonemes and morphemes are it doesn't work quite so well as an explanation for most folks.

[Ozzy Dave]

Great post! Particularly the last part, because it doesn't matter what your intention is during a form, if you have never trained against a non-cooperative, resisting opponent, then it is just dry-land swimming.

Anyone else feel like this is just beating the bones of a dead horse?

In the current MA climate the horse has all but bolted.

This is the heart of the problem IMO for TCMA in the West - people equating forms with a mock representation of combative response. They are not.

Forms are a multi faceted training tool that at the basic level teach attributes particular to a style.

Dave

[Yoshiyahu]

There is more to Wing Chun than just punching...

In boxing everything is practiced interactively.

But if you have no partner you shadow box...Shadow boxing is a Form...its freestyle non-the less...but its still mere form practice.


Even in dance you practice routines, in music you practice....

A musical soloist or singer has to practice quasi form to build themselves up...They dont just practice being solo and adlive all the time...They have to first learn how to follow a pattern until their voice or body can mold into the require form...An they keep practicing the basics to maintain proper form!


Same with kung fu...think of forms as shadow boxing!

[Fa Xing]

There is more to Wing Chun than just punching...

In boxing everything is practiced interactively.

But if you have no partner you shadow box...Shadow boxing is a Form...its freestyle non-the less...but its still mere form practice.


Even in dance you practice routines, in music you practice....

A musical soloist or singer has to practice quasi form to build themselves up...They dont just practice being solo and adlive all the time...They have to first learn how to follow a pattern until their voice or body can mold into the require form...An they keep practicing the basics to maintain proper form!


Same with kung fu...think of forms as shadow boxing!

The difference is that in shadowboxing you naturally adapt the techniques to yourself where forms make you adapt yourself to the techniques.

[Yoshiyahu]

The difference is that in shadowboxing you naturally adapt the techniques to yourself where forms make you adapt yourself to the techniques.


actually the techniques in shadow boxing you utilize to adapt to yourself...Because nothing is new under the sun....Over time you body becomes acclomated to moving like a boxer and it becomes natural and fluent...until it becomes second nature. Same with forms. over time your body gets used to the footwork and movements and structure an you do so instaneousnly...