Why you shouldn't take strength training advice from TMAists

[IronFist]

http://i.imgur.com/JZLD1.jpg

Big muscles working against each other? Maybe if you're hooked up to an EMS that is forcing the antagonist to contract http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

IRONY @ that person suggesting taking classes to find out how muscles work http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

From here:
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100119000305AAS6kgS

I mean, he got it half right (size alone doesn't determine a muscle's strength; there is also neurological efficiency which is why you can get much stronger without gaining size if you train in a specific manner), but for all the wrong reasons.

This is the kind of thing they teach in TMA schools.

I was told in Karate, Kung fu, and Hapkido classes the weights are bad and big muscles are counter productive to martial arts http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

I actually believed it for a while :o

[RWilson]

I am really trying to stay positive for the board. Stop trying to tempt me....the flesh is weak.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no modern weight training method that can help you to develop this skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NgXae8ApQE

The TCMA uses this training method.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

[RWilson]

There is no modern weight training method that can help you to develop this skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NgXae8ApQE

The TCMA uses this training method.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

That is a skill though. John. Even if you do that kind of special weight lifting that does not guarantee that you will be able to do it. Only practicing on cooperative and non-cooperative wrestling partners will develop that throw.

[bawang]

There is no modern weight training method that can help you to develop this skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NgXae8ApQE

The TCMA uses this training method.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

In TCMA, it's not called "strength" training but "Gong" training.

O RLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PbNpaiIi9I

[YouKnowWho]

That is a skill though. John. Even if you do that kind of special weight lifting that does not guarantee that you will be able to do it. Only practicing on cooperative and non-cooperative wrestling partners will develop that throw.
The same arguement - no matter how much time that you may spend on your heavy bag (ability), it does not guarantee that you will be able to hit your opponent (skill).

In TCMA, a particular skill (50%) will require a partcular ability (50%). Of course you can train this on your training partner. Since it's difficult to have a training partner 24/7, you will need "equipment" to help your training.

If you want to train the ugly side of this move by sit on your opponent's knee joint side way, no training partner would like you to do that. The "equipment will never complain (heavy bag will never complain)".

[RWilson]

The same arguement - no matter how much time that you may spend on your heavy bag (ability), it does not guarantee that you will be able to hit your opponent (skill).

In TCMA, a particular skill (50%) will require a partcular ability (50%). You can train this on your training partner. Since it's difficult to have a training partner 24/7, you will need "equiplent" to help your training.

If you want to train the ugly side of this move by sit on your opponent's knee joint side way, no training partner would like you to do that. The "equipment will never complain".

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7828/headlock.jpg



I can see your point kind of but...it is much easier to hit someone with a punch than to pull of that throw in sparring. It barely happens in competition I bet. Am I right?

[YouKnowWho]

I can see your point kind of but...it is much easier to hit someone with a punch than to pull of that throw in sparring. It barely happens in competition I bet. Am I right?
Oneday BK Frantzis asked my teacher about the Taiji "needle at the bottom of the sea", when my teacher explained the application to him, Frantzis suddently moved behind my teacher, gave him a bear hug from behind, and said ,"Now what can you do?" If my teacher was not good in this move (this move was my teacher's trade mark move). My teacher won't be able to take Frantzis down that easy. The bear hug is a very power skill. The person who uses bear hug on you, he has controlled the center part of your body.

All body contact throw that require your back to touch your opponent's chest will give your opponent a chance to use bear hug on you. He can either pick your up, or drag you down. With leg twist, you can "tangle" your leg on your opponent's leg, and use his rooting as your rooting (glue your body on your opponent's body). It's not only an important "defense" skill, it's also a very important "set up" for many other throws.

[MightyB]

I can see your point kind of but...it is much easier to hit someone with a punch than to pull of that throw in sparring. It barely happens in competition I bet. Am I right?


Nah - it happens more than you'd think. Here's a couple of white belts doing it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtycDrJMVI). In Judo, we'd train Uchi Mata to Ouchi Gari, sometimes the Kazushi is strong enough on the reversal that you don't even need to sweep the leg Johnny.

[YouKnowWho]

Nah - it happens more than you'd think. Here's a couple of white belts doing it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtycDrJMVI). In Judo, we'd train Uchi Mata to Ouchi Gari, sometimes the Kazushi is strong enough on the reversal that you don't even need to sweep the leg Johnny.

In Judo, do you allow to twist your right leg on your opponent's right leg? Do you have a name for that? Or is it still called kawazugake?

[Oso]

somebody trollin' ;)

you need power, strength, speed and skill.

sometimes you need skill, speed, strength and power.

i'm not going to rearrange them again. :D

oh, and stamina/metabolic conditioning

AND, above all: cheat at every opportunity in order to improve your chances for success over your opponent.

cheating probably matters more than all the others.

[Oso]

hey, it's:

[Frost]

you probably shouldnt take it from a guy who weighs about 150 pounds, has never competed in any strength sport and who gets most of his advice from Pavels books :)

Just for reference my first TCMA master had his guys squatting and benching back in the 70's, he used things like heavy negatives to increase strength before most of us were weigth training........

[RWilson]

you probably shouldnt take it from a guy who weighs about 150 pounds, has never competed in any strength sport and who gets most of his advice from Pavels books :)

Just for reference my first TCMA master had his guys squatting and benching back in the 70's, he used things like heavy negatives to increase strength before most of us were weigth training........

Pavel's stuff is overpriced for what it is but Pavel himself is a conditioned athlete. You powerlifters think you are the ultimate shiznet when it comes to working out. How many one armed one legged push ups can you do? How many one armed one legged hindu push ups can you do? How many one armed weighted vest rollouts can you do? I am guessing either none for all of those. Point is that powerlifting is for those that do koto like to think out of the box when it comes to using resistance to build strength. But you get to look tough and brag about how your sport is an olympic event.

[Frost]

Pavel's stuff is overpriced for what it is but Pavel himself is a conditioned athlete. You powerlifters think you are the ultimate shiznet when it comes to working out. How many one armed one legged push ups can you do? How many one armed one legged hindu push ups can you do? How many one armed weighted vest rollouts can you do? I am guessing either none for all of those. Point is that powerlifting is for those that do koto like to think out of the box when it comes to using resistance to build strength. But you get to look tough and brag about how your sport is an olympic event.

Actually ours is not an Olympic sport, Olympic lifting is so we cant brag sorry :)
Although I do have a mean split snatch and powerclean if that helps!:)

I see no need to do circus acts, I used to do one armed and three finger push ups ,. One leg squats etc, I have most of pavel stuff now I find a better carryover from the the OL and powerlfting stuff, combined with simple jumps, throws, sprints, and I prefer to get my S and C advice from professionals, which I advice everyone here to do

[RWilson]

Actually ours is not an Olympic sport, Olympic lifting is so we cant brag sorry :)
Although I do have a mean split snatch and powerclean if that helps!:)

I see no need to do circus acts, I used to do one armed and three finger push ups ,. One leg squats etc, I have most of pavel stuff now I find a better carryover from the the OL and powerlfting stuff, combined with simple jumps, throws, sprints, and I prefer to get my S and C advice from professionals, which I advice everyone here to do

The problem is that there are so many different kinds of professionals out there. There are crossfit pros, Pavel pros, bodybuilding pros, body weight pros, etc. theyvall have their "certifications" too! everyone has their gurus and you choose to follow the powerlifting ones. There are too many voices in the conditioning community.

[Frost]

The problem is that there are so many different kinds of professionals out there. There are crossfit pros, Pavel pros, bodybuilding pros, body weight pros, etc. theyvall have their "certifications" too! everyone has their gurus and you choose to follow the powerlifting ones. There are too many voices in the conditioning community.

There are many voices in the community but the successful ones do a lot of the same things, and the good ones usually don’t need to advertise on the net or run certificate courses……
Which is why you should research, and go with guys with a proven track record, where possible train with them, and where not possible communicate with them to get an understanding of the different training methods and chose the one that’s right for you
I chose powerlifting because I like to lift weights and understand the role maximum strength plays in a lot of sports (and happen to have access to a gym with 5 commonwealth gold medallists, one of whom is current world record holder in his weight category) but I don’t follow any guru hence I have trained alongside S and C coaches at a few pro sports clubs, and communicated a fair bit with a few S and C coaches in the MMA world.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TCMA used to have LOTS of strength training BUT somewhere along the lines the BS overcame it and crap became the norm.
Fact is a strong body is a good body to have.
Fact is that nothing build strength better than progressive resistance training and fact is that no tool is better, generally, for that then barbells and dumbbells.
In short, if you can deadlift and bench press and overhead press and squat with good heavy weights then you are strong and probably able to do pretty much any activity that you require, MA or otherwise.

[MightyB]

In Judo, do you allow to twist your right leg on your opponent's right leg? Do you have a name for that? Or is it still called kawazugake?

That's old school forbidden stuff. I'm not sure it's applied in the same way as SC as a throw because it's a sacrifice throw. There's also some archive video footage of Mifune using it to block throw attempts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had the previlage to do some old school Judo, pre WW2 Stuff, Kosen Judo-like stuff and there was pretty much NOTHING you COULDN'T do, LOL !
The set routnies of Judo, the Kata, were suppose tohave these moves, moves to dangerous from randori BUT moves that were very effective when COUPLED with the skills developed in randori.
The problem is that those kata were disregarded and fell by the wayside and never improved and evolved.

[MightyB]

I had the previlage to do some old school Judo, pre WW2 Stuff, Kosen Judo-like stuff and there was pretty much NOTHING you COULDN'T do, LOL !
The set routnies of Judo, the Kata, were suppose tohave these moves, moves to dangerous from randori BUT moves that were very effective when COUPLED with the skills developed in randori.
The problem is that those kata were disregarded and fell by the wayside and never improved and evolved.

I use ashi garami a lot in BJJ and it's still taught as required knowledge in most Judo schools, you just can't use it in Judo.

One of the coolest things for any grappler is to pick up a copy of Mifune's Canon of Judo. It's incredibly eye opening because you'll see BJJ's daddy. I'm not going to take anything away from the Gracies because they took it to a new level, but you really do see why old school Judoka say they don't need BJJ 'cause it's just Judo.

The Katas evolved in a bad way IMO... especially Goshin Jutsu. I have a coach that learned the old way and it's better than what's taught now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I use ashi garami a lot in BJJ and it's still taught as required knowledge in most Judo schools, you just can't use it in Judo.

One of the coolest things for any grappler is to pick up a copy of Mifune's Canon of Judo. It's incredibly eye opening because you'll see BJJ's daddy. I'm not going to take anything away from the Gracies because they took it to a new level, but you really do see why old school Judoka say they don't need BJJ 'cause it's just Judo.

The Katas evolved in a bad way IMO... especially Goshin Jutsu. I have a coach that learned the old way and it's better than what's taught now.

If you can get your hands on these, do so:
Kawaishi judo method
THe dynamic Judo series by Kudo ( throwing and grappling).

[MightyB]

This is a good demo of Kawazu Gake (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgMXoPBQFXI) at the beginning of this video clip.

One neat thing about BJJ is you get to use all of this stuff. I'm going to take it out of the closet next time I go to the BJJ mat.

[Matt_WCK]

The difference between strength and ging

http://www.kwokwingchun.com/training-tips/kung-fu-theory/strength-and-ging/

Myths on strength training in Wing Chun

http://www.kwokwingchun.com/training-tips/wing-chun-articles/strength-training-and-wing-chun/

For what it's worth, I utilise an array of cardio and strength exercises to augment my training and, during training, I use a lot of pad and bag work in addition to the usual forms, drills and partner work. The attitude I've seen in some of the clubs I've trained in is that they expect the students to do all of the cardio and strength training during their own times so as not to waste precious club time doing circuit training. I have never been told to NOT train strength or cardio for fear of being slow..

[IronFist]

There is no modern weight training method that can help you to develop this skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NgXae8ApQE

The TCMA uses this training method.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

And?

Even if there was a training method to do that, it would be pointless. Sport specific training is useless.

I assure you anyone who knows that technique who can squat 300 or 400 pounds can perform that technique without trouble on anyone.

[IronFist]

Whoa, why is everyone talking about technique?

Who said you don't need technique?

Silly MAists, as soon as someone mentions weight lifting they're like "BUT YOU NEED TECHNIQUE!!!"

Of course you need good technique!

But strength and size are certainly not the enemy, nor are they counter productive.

A guy with good technique who can also bench 2x bodyweight and squat and/or DL 2 or 3x bodyweight, do a punch of pullups, etc., will have strong strikes.

Who do you think can hit harder? Who is in a better position when wrestling with a heavier opponent? The guy with 5 years of MA experience who is also a powerlifter, or the guy with 5 years of MA experience and the same level of technique as the first guy, but who has never touched weights because he's afraid they'll make him slow and inflexible.

(Assume neither guy has qi blast skills, cuz obviously he would hit hardest).

[YouKnowWho]

I assure you anyone who knows that technique who can squat 300 or 400 pounds can perform that technique without trouble on anyone.
Even if you can squat 300 or 400 pounds, you still don't have that "twisting" power.


Whoa, why is everyone talking about technique?
Because this is a "Kung Fu training thread". Everything has to do with "combat".


Who do you think can hit harder?
TCMA is more than just "striking". From a "striker" point of view, weight lifting may be enough. From a grappler point of view, general weight lifting is not enough. You will also need "special" weight training. This is why

"One should take strength training advice from TMAists and not from body builders"

I thought we all agreed that weight lifting will not be "required" in pole dancing in another diiscussion. We shouldn't have to go through that discussion again. For a pole dancer, to spend her training time in weight lifting is not smart.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

In order to be able to hold a "human flag" on the pole, one will need to "push" his lower hand, and "pull" on his upper hand at the same time. Both forces will be needed to function at the same time. Of course if you can find a training machine in modern gym that can develop pull and push at the same time, that machine may be helpful.

I found this machine is very helpful to develop "push" and "pull' at the same time.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6186/rotarytorso.jpg

[IronFist]

Even if you can squat 300 or 400 pounds, you still don't have that "twisting" power.

I said someone who knows that technique.

If they are proficient in the technique they have all the CNS efficiency required to pull it off successfully. If they can squat 300 or 400 pounds their legs and core are capable of generating sufficient tension to successfully perform the technique on anyone.

To be clear, I said someone who knows the technique.

A noob with no MA experience who can squat 300 or 400 pounds (probably) lacks the CNS efficiency to do the technique correctly because he has never trained it before. It reminds me of my weight lifting friend in college who didn't know how to punch. Dude was **** strong but had the goofiest punching form. Would it do damage to someone? Of course. But by learning proper technique he could increase its power significantly.

Technique. And strength. And technique. And strength.


Because this is a "Kung Fu training thread" and not a body building thread. Everything has to do with "combat".

This thread has "strength training" in the title.

Also, no one mentioned bodybuilding until you did just now.


TCMA is more than just "striking".

That's why I mentioned wresting with a heavier opponent. Did you even read my post?

[Faruq]

Oneday BK Frantzis asked my teacher about the Taiji "needle at the bottom of the sea", when my teacher explained the application to him, Frantzis suddently moved behind my teacher, gave him a bear hug from behind, and said ,"Now what can you do?" If my teacher was not good in this move (this move was my teacher's trade mark move). My teacher won't be able to take Frantzis down that easy. The bear hug is a very power skill. The person who uses bear hug on you, he has controlled the center part of your body.

Well finish the story, bro. What did your teacher do when put on the spot? How did it end?

[YouKnowWho]

If they can squat 300 or 400 pounds their legs and core are capable of generating sufficient tension to successfully perform the technique on anyone.

In my personal experience, this is not possible. I had a lot of big strong weight lifting guys with me. Even if I had taught them this move, they still could not apply it by their strong muscle.

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4981/legtwisting.jpg

I just use leg twist as an example. There are other skills such as head lock, foot sweep, leg scoop, leg sticky, ... also need "special strength training" that one can only learn from a TCMAist.

[YouKnowWho]

Well finish the story, bro. What did your teacher do when put on the spot? How did it end?

When BK Frantzis got behind the old man with a bear hug, Frantzis was in a low horse stance with bending legs. This gave the old man a chance to twist his leg on Frantzis's bending knee joint (the leg twist won't work well if your opponent's legs are straight), sat on his upper leg with all the body weight, and crash him all the way down to the ground. After Frantzis got back up from the ground, he asked the old man how did he do it. The old man said, "You go to figure it out by yourself". The old man didn't like Frantzis's "ambush - attack by surprise" approach. That was the last time the old man saw BK Frantzis.

[-N-]

The old man said, "You go to figure it out by yourself". The old man didn't like Frantzis's "ambush - attack by surprise" approach. That was the last time the old man saw BK Frantzis.

Haha. He gave him a free lesson, the old school way. Show one time.

[RWilson]

TCMA used to have LOTS of strength training BUT somewhere along the lines the BS overcame it and crap became the norm.
Fact is a strong body is a good body to have.
Fact is that nothing build strength better than progressive resistance training and fact is that no tool is better, generally, for that then barbells and dumbbells.
In short, if you can deadlift and bench press and overhead press and squat with good heavy weights then you are strong and probably able to do pretty much any activity that you require, MA or otherwise.

The only problem with your assessment is that if I gas none of my maximal strength gains matter. Conditioning is probably the most important aspect. Nowadays the UFC seems to be that the better conditioned guy just needs to wait for the other guy to gas and then close in.

[YouKnowWho]

If you can bench press 400 lb but can't do "human flag", what may be the missing part?

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

[IronFist]

If you can bench press 400 lb but can't do "human flag", what may be the missing part?

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

I injured my rotator cuff training human flags and it took 9 months to heal.

I'm finally back in the gym as of a few weeks ago lifting total noob weights to take things super slow.

I'm afraid to ever try a human flag again :(

btw human flag is with legs straight:
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/112/e/2/human_flag_by_PKJames.jpg

(not me in that pic)

Not that the way she's doing it isn't hard, but it does have easier leverage (if you can do the splits, I mean).

Human flags require good core and arm strength but are really just a show off move. That's why I was practicing them. Not gonna lie :D But it's a very specific CNS adaptation that doesn't really have any carryover to anything IRL (outside from possible strength gains you get from it).

[Oso]

Le Sigh....

[Frost]

The only problem with your assessment is that if I gas none of my maximal strength gains matter. Conditioning is probably the most important aspect. Nowadays the UFC seems to be that the better conditioned guy just needs to wait for the other guy to gas and then close in.

as long as he doesnt get knocked out in the first round by the guy with better power :)

If all i can clean is say 80kg and squat 150kg and im trying to throw a guy weighing 100kg im going to put a lot more effort in and thus probably gas quicker than if i can clean 150kg and squat 250 simply because i wont be exerting as much effort

Is strength the ONLY thing you need? of course not thats why its called strength and conditioning and is seperate from skill work.......

[RWilson]

as long as he doesnt get knocked out in the first round by the guy with better power :)

If all i can clean is say 80kg and squat 150kg and im trying to throw a guy weighing 100kg im going to put a lot more effort in and thus probably gas quicker than if i can clean 150kg and squat 250 simply because i wont be exerting as much effort

Is strength the ONLY thing you need? of course not thats why its called strength and conditioning and is seperate from skill work.......

I was listening to an interview with PGSP who is one of the best. He said he only lifts weights once a week, twice at the most because there are so many other things to work on as a fighter.

[Frost]

I was listening to an interview with PGSP who is one of the best. He said he only lifts weights once a week, twice at the most because there are so many other things to work on as a fighter.

Martin Rooney, the guy behind most of renzos fighters, and the likes of frankie edger etc used to have his guys work S and C 4 times a week, 2 strength 2 condtioning, now its three times because of all the extra training they have to do, how they break the days up depends onwhat their weaknesses are, so weak guys will lift twice and condtion once.
Joel Jamison (who trains most of Matt Humes guys) also only trains them three times a week, and breaks it into blocks of training, but both use the powerlfits for strength because they offer the biggest bang for your buck when training time is limited

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only problem with your assessment is that if I gas none of my maximal strength gains matter. Conditioning is probably the most important aspect. Nowadays the UFC seems to be that the better conditioned guy just needs to wait for the other guy to gas and then close in.

Its not an either/or case dude, so don't make it one.
You can be conditoned AND strong so why wouldn't you be?

[RWilson]

Its not an either/or case dude, so don't make it one.
You can be conditoned AND strong so why wouldn't you be?

I am in agreement. I think that being conditioned is slightly more important and plus I am not a fan of the idea that you have to do big lifts to get the biggest bang for your buck. I believe in variety.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am in agreement. I think that being conditioned is slightly more important and plus I am not a fan of the idea that you have to do big lifts to get the biggest bang for your buck. I believe in variety.

Conditoning is crucial but we most also be aware of what we need in everyday life.
Strength is one of the things that we can never have "too much off", be it to bring the groceries home, toss the kids around, move a washing machine or fridge or crush a beer can with our bicep, LOL !
At least for me, in terms of everyday life, I use strength far more than conditioning.

[Fa Xing]

Conditoning is crucial but we most also be aware of what we need in everyday life.
Strength is one of the things that we can never have "too much off", be it to bring the groceries home, toss the kids around, move a washing machine or fridge or crush a beer can with our bicep, LOL !
At least for me, in terms of everyday life, I use strength far more than conditioning.

I have to agree, and it's one thing I've heard Alwyn Cosgrove say over and over again: "you never hear an athlete say, 'I need to get weaker.'"

Honestly, one of the best ways I saw for S&C was when I interned with Robert dos Remedios for preseason football, and he would have the athletes lift and then condition. It wasn't necessarily specific, but enough of it would transfer over to the sport. This for me as been the best method of working on S&C, and it covers the bases without doing several sessions a day.

[YouKnowWho]

The day that I had built my weight pulley at home, I put up about 70 lb weight at the end. My teacher said that was too much weight. I then asked him how much weight was proper, he then told me it should be around 45 lb. In the last 3 months, I had increased up to 65 lb. This week I feel my elbow joint may have some injury from the fast pulling. I'll take another week off and go back to my regular 50 lb again. I know from now on I'll stay with 50 lb weight if I still want to maintain my speed. This is an excellent example that old TMAist's knowledge and experience is valuable. If you don't believe it, you may have to use your own body injury to learn your own experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_OtpBn9qJs

[Fa Xing]

The day that I had built my weight pulley at home, I put up about 70 lb weight at the end. My teacher said that was too much weight. I then asked him how much weight was proper, he then told me it should be around 45 lb. In the last 3 months, I had increased up to 65 lb. This week I feel my elbow joint may have some injury from the fast pulling. I'll take another week off and go back to my regular 50 lb again. I know from now on I'll stay with 50 lb weight if I still want to maintain my speed. This is an excellent example that old TMAist's knowledge and experience is valuable. If you don't believe it, you may have to use your own body injury to learn your own experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_OtpBn9qJs

I do Woodchops (http://youtu.be/rqGEJr6GAt4)with well over 100lbs quite easily, in fact I often max out the weight stacks on most machines.

The vid you posted YKW is ok, but that weight would do nothing for me personally. There wouldn't be enough stimulus for developing muscle strength.

[YouKnowWho]

I do Woodchops (http://youtu.be/rqGEJr6GAt4)with well over 100lbs quite easily, in fact I often max out the weight stacks on most machines.

The vid you posted YKW is ok, but that weight would do nothing for me personally. There wouldn't be enough stimulus for developing muscle strength.
It's the "release" that I have concern. When I release my pulley in fast speed, that final weight drop can hurt my elbow joint. Of course I can release it in much slow speed, but I won't be able to train the ability that I need - shaking.

I'm not using pulley to develop my muscle. I'm using it to develop my "shaking". In my weight pulley clip, when I release my rope, there is some "delay" there until the weight start to drop and pull me forward. That kind of feeling is what I want to train for.

[IronFist]

I'm not using pulley to develop my muscle. I'm using it to develop my "shaking".

This is why you shouldn't take strength training advice from TMAists.

[YouKnowWho]

This is why you shouldn't take strength training advice from TMAists.
If you just just want to be strong, a 20 years old personal trainner in any gym can help you on that.

[Raipizo]

The day that I had built my weight pulley at home, I put up about 70 lb weight at the end. My teacher said that was too much weight. I then asked him how much weight was proper, he then told me it should be around 45 lb. In the last 3 months, I had increased up to 65 lb. This week I feel my elbow joint may have some injury from the fast pulling. I'll take another week off and go back to my regular 50 lb again. I know from now on I'll stay with 50 lb weight if I still want to maintain my speed. This is an excellent example that old TMAist's knowledge and experience is valuable. If you don't believe it, you may have to use your own body injury to learn your own experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_OtpBn9qJs

What do you use to make it?

[YouKnowWho]

What do you use to make it?

- 3 wooden fence poles,
- a cross board,
- a sailboat pulley,
- 30 feet long rope,
- a Karate belt for hands holding,
- 45 lb weight,
- dig a hole.

The longer the rope, the better it will be. This way when you release your rope, it will take more time untill the final weight drop that give you a "surprise" pulling. In the gym, the iron rope for the weight pulley won't create the "wave form" that you need.

[Raipizo]

How about this? Seems a lot cheaper too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KJOyRUjpcU

[Lucas]

you miss the wave form hes talking about though. I think that the main difference is that while both develop strength, John's machine also helps develop a specific martial aspect. Plus you get to dig a hole!!!

[YouKnowWho]

How about this? Seems a lot cheaper too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KJOyRUjpcU

Here is the main discussion issues. We all know that "general strength development" and "special purpose strength development" are both important in combat.

1. Can we kill 2 birds with 1 stone?
2. If we want to do both, can we afford the time?
3. Should we use less weight with fast speed, or heavy weight with slow speed?
4. What should be our priority?

From my personal experience, "heavy weight" and "fast speed" just don't go well to each other.

[Raipizo]

you miss the wave form hes talking about though. I think that the main difference is that while both develop strength, John's machine also helps develop a specific martial aspect. Plus you get to dig a hole!!!

Yup I didn't get what he meant by wave. Ykw is it demonstrated in the YouTube video you sent?

[Raipizo]

You could probably get the same results from that one I posted, all you need is a longer rope. Plus would't the pulling be horrid for your joints? Same reason why you're not supposed to strike fast with weights in your hand.

[Frost]

Here is the main discussion issues. We all know that "general strength development" and "special purpose strength development" are both important in combat.

1. Can we kill 2 birds with 1 stone?
2. If we want to do both, can we afford the time?
3. Should we use less weight with fast speed, or heavy weight with slow speed?
4. What should be our priority?

From my personal experience, "heavy weight" and "fast speed" just don't go well to each other.

1) no you end up with the worst of both worldsbuild a base with general exercises then go specific
2) yes if its important to you
3) you should do both, and typically the stronger you are the more explosive you can be with lighter weights
Siff found that maximum explosion came with 60% of your one rep max, so you increase your one rep max and you increase the weight you can be explosive with, not to mention one half of the explosive equation is teaching your nervous system to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible (which is what heavy lifting does)
4) your priority should be increasing what ever skill or ability is holding you back in sparring

[YouKnowWho]

1) no you end up with the worst of both worlds. build a base with general exercises then go specific.

After I had hurt my elbow 4 times with heavy weight and fast speed, I have to agree with you on this. Also agree with you on the other 3 as well.


Siff found that maximum explosion came with 60% of your one rep max,
That's a good piece information. Thanks for sharing.

[Oso]

The day that I had built my weight pulley at home, I put up about 70 lb weight at the end. My teacher said that was too much weight. I then asked him how much weight was proper, he then told me it should be around 45 lb. In the last 3 months, I had increased up to 65 lb. This week I feel my elbow joint may have some injury from the fast pulling. I'll take another week off and go back to my regular 50 lb again. I know from now on I'll stay with 50 lb weight if I still want to maintain my speed. This is an excellent example that old TMAist's knowledge and experience is valuable. If you don't believe it, you may have to use your own body injury to learn your own experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_OtpBn9qJs

hmmm...i have to say the problem i have with this exercise is at the point that the arm is taking the load, the shoulder and elbow are overextended. the elbow is likely to take a slight hyperextension with each stroke and the load at the shoulder is taken completely by tendon and ligament. most especially on the single arm pull.

[gareththomasnz]

This is why all the great champion fighters are feather weight girls

[YouKnowWho]

This is why all the great champion fighters are feather weight girls
I won't call those guys "feather weight girls".

http://imageshack.us/a/img26/5370/changyoung.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img651/2114/changpic01.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2168/mscguy.jpg