Speed and Accuracy?

[Yoshiyahu]

How important is speed and percision accuracy....

How do you measure your speed and accuracy? How do you develop it?

I believe a key component along with strenght and power is speed which can be useful when you utilize flow!


What do you think?

[HumbleWCGuy]

You can't disentable speed and accuracy from power. Our conception of punching power is really about creating a maximum force collision.

[Yoshiyahu]

You can't disentable speed and accuracy from power. Our conception of punching power is really about creating a maximum force collision.

Say What?

In boxing and other fighting forms they isolate training dealing with stamina, speed, power, strength, and agility...


My Question is how do you train speed.

My Sidai is alot stronger than I was back when we first started training...i had alot more speed than he did!

[JPinAZ]

This is all attribute thinking. While attributes are always important, it is surface level stuff - WC goes a lot deeper than just thinking 'who's stronger or faster'.

Also, what kind of speed are you even talking about anyway? Just play old hand speed? Footwork? Reaction time? Sensitivity? Are you talking about in regards to what you see or what you feel? (If you're going to be loading up the forums again with all these countless generic threads, it might help if you could try to be a little less general and offer up some ideas of your own first..)

Besides all that, a better question IMO would be to ask: what is it about WC that allows us to overcome someone that has greater attributes, and how do I train that? ;)

[wtxs]

This is all attribute thinking. While attributes are always important, it is surface level stuff - WC goes a lot deeper than just thinking 'who's stronger or faster'.

Also, what kind of speed are you even talking about anyway? Just play old hand speed? Footwork? Reaction time? Sensitivity? Are you talking about in regards to what you see or what you feel? (If you're going to be loading up the forums again with all these countless generic threads, it might help if you could try to be a little less general and offer up some ideas of your own first..)

Besides all that, a better question IMO would be to ask: what is it about WC that allows us to overcome someone that has greater attributes, and how do I train that? ;)

JP, that would be logical wouldn't it? As for me ... I'm going for lots of popcorn and beer, this could very will be another long winded thread. :p

[Yoshiyahu]

This is all attribute thinking. While attributes are always important, it is surface level stuff - WC goes a lot deeper than just thinking 'who's stronger or faster'.

Also, what kind of speed are you even talking about anyway? Just play old hand speed? Footwork? Reaction time? Sensitivity? Are you talking about in regards to what you see or what you feel? (If you're going to be loading up the forums again with all these countless generic threads, it might help if you could try to be a little less general and offer up some ideas of your own first..)

Besides all that, a better question IMO would be to ask: what is it about WC that allows us to overcome someone that has greater attributes, and how do I train that? ;)

There is an old Wing Chun Saying Speed beats Strenght...If someone has equal skill in fighting as you do...But they are stronger who will win...Apart of your skill should include speed, stamina, endurance, agility, power, strength and balance...I digress...

As for what speed should include...I say all that you spoke of it should...But what i was insinuating is someone who has faster strikes their opponent! meaning their kicks are faster and their punches are faster....

[Lee Chiang Po]

Having great strength is always a plus for anyone. Speed is relative I guess. More than anything you need conviction. You can not do something only half way or it simply does not work. It requires you go all the way. Conviction, determination, whatever you wants to call it, but it is more a mental thing. Of course you have to develop your own weapon skills. You got to be able to punch and block properly, and you need to be able to move from one technique to the next as needed with absolutely no hesitation. If you hesitate, then speed matters. Especially the speed of your opponent. You stop, or hesitate and he will catch you. If he is stronger, then it matters even more.

[Bacon]

Too many chunners worry about being fast. It is not speed in the sense most think of it that is important. The important things are:

Structure - being able to overtake someone's center or trap their hands
Efficiency - When you use good strucutre and directness it is efficient and it LOOKS faster.

I can go as fast as I want but my sifu beats me by structure and position. You don't need to strike faster, trap faster, or move faster, you just need to have superior position.

Just like grappling. The one who wins is not the faster one, it's the one who knows how to do more by moving less.

[imperialtaichi]

Speed is everything. Well, almost anyway.;)

However, it is not about the km/h of how fast your hands/body moves, but how quickly you get the task done.

e.g., if I move less distance and move earlier, I'll still be faster than the person with higher km/h but starts moving later and travelling longer distances.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Say What?

In boxing and other fighting forms they isolate training dealing with stamina, speed, power, strength, and agility...

It's all for the purpose of hitting someone as hard as possible. Stamina... For combinations... Speed so the other guy has less time to block.. Etc. Fast in of itself isn't that valuable without strength and leverage. That's all that I am saying.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You should never use speed as an excuse to not lift weights.

[imperialtaichi]

It's all for the purpose of hitting someone as hard as possible. Stamina... For combinations... Speed so the other guy has less time to block.. Etc. Fast in of itself isn't that valuable without strength and leverage. That's all that I am saying.

Well, in my opinion it is not just about how hard you hit, but how much damage you can cause (of course, I'm not saying not to hit hard). For example, an unpredictable hit with less force can cause just as much damage with a full force strike if the opponent has time to brace up.

To make the strikes difficult to block; apart from speed, stealth is also an important component. Conceal your strikes until it is too late for the opponent to do anything.

I am a relatively small guy so I always assume my opponent is stronger and faster so I have to come up with effective strategies to overcome my weaknesses.

[Yoshiyahu]

I am not disagreeing with you...I believe structure, enconomy of motion is very important...Being direct and having forward momentum is key...But if both of you are equally skilled in structure and efficency...who will win?

I say the one who is stronger and has more speed....

In grappling when two mma guys are evenly matched...the one who usually wins boils down to superior conditioning and attributes.

ie the stronger, faster one usually wins...With speed you can move in a out of guards with ease an quickness. I saw some pretty impressive mma fights where one guy was superior on the ground because he was able to get out of submission quickly before pressure was applied. An he was skilled at moving from the guard posistion to the dominant posistion...it was speed and agility....


Too many chunners worry about being fast. It is not speed in the sense most think of it that is important. The important things are:

Structure - being able to overtake someone's center or trap their hands
Efficiency - When you use good strucutre and directness it is efficient and it LOOKS faster.

I can go as fast as I want but my sifu beats me by structure and position. You don't need to strike faster, trap faster, or move faster, you just need to have superior position.

Just like grappling. The one who wins is not the faster one, it's the one who knows how to do more by moving less.

[JPinAZ]

Yoshi, you'll just never get it because you only see WC as techniques backed by attributes, which is why you end up have to start so many threads and ask so many questions. Bacon was spot on in his post, you should re-read it because you are looking at this bass-ackward..

Yes, you can argue all day 'equal everything else, speed wins'. But that's not the real world and even then you are not always right because heart and strong chin can overcome speed. And you also forgot luck! So, while attributes are important, NO, stronger faster does NOT always win . That type of thinking is lucky strike fighting and is the opposite of what WC is all about!

Now, since since this is a WC forum (not an MMA one) you would still be better asking your question from the other end: all things being equal (speed/strength/conditioning), what gives one the advantage as WING CHUN prectitioner? What if you come up against a guy that is bigger, stronger, faster? In WING CHUN, the answer is the ability to control the time and space with superior structure, leverage and position and following WC's principles to help you get there. These things will help defeat the faster/stronger guy with less effort on your part. It's not just a magic pill you take though, but to think 'speed rules' is very basic level thinking for a WC guy that claims to have all these years experience..

[JPinAZ]

There is an old Wing Chun Saying Speed beats Strenght.

I've never hear that in WC. Who told you that, Stan? :rolleyes:

Again, while speed can beat strength, I'm not placing my money on that bet - What if you opponent is stronger AND faster than you? I guess in your case you're just screwed yeah? You can't always hope you are faster than the next guy, you have to plan for the opposite to be true. And in WC, it is superior structure, position, leverage and control of time/space that gives the best chance to beat a faster or stronger guy.

[WC1277]

Not speed, timing. Speed that is productive is just the by product of good timing. There is such thing as moving too fast into an opening that presents itself ruining your follow up timing. Speed is only relative to the timing of the opponent. If you focus on it, you'll lose many good opportunities.

Strength is also irrelevant in and of itself. In WC the goal is to maximize whatever 'power' you do have to equal or exceed 100% of killing/knockout power. So, say, if a regular punch for you regardless of your strength equals 60%. Using your body with the punch now, say adds another 60%. And then add pulling into your punch, say adds another 60%, you're now at 180%. Well over the 100% needed. Of course you have to have the other attributes in place like distance, timing, and so forth. So, hypothetically, at the very least, you only 'need' to be as strong as 33% of the 100% required to neutralize that particular opponent.

I know I've said it before, but, while most people regardless of lineage, understand using the body, the focus on pulling your lead hand when attacking 'will' increase your power due to balancing the structure of your upper body. Try doing the regular punches in your mother stance and focus on pulling the arm back more than pushing the rear hand out and you'll see what I mean. Also, when practicing this way, keep the punching arm bent only as far as you extend out in the first section of Sil lum Tao. Fully extending your arm out is only for development of your ligaments. Now this pulling motion can be used with any motion even if ever so slightly. You wouldn't think something like a tan punch would have a pulling motion, but it does because proper use of the WC triangle involves the balancing of the triangle. Just remember though, active/passive rules still apply when redirecting force but anytime you're attacking, which hopefully is the majority of the time, you have to have that pulling attribute to maximize your power.....

[Yoshiyahu]

Nope my friend it was either in the Kuit Kuen...that said when fighting someone stronger than you...use speed.

I agree with most of what you said...but im am speaking in terms of not neglecting good attributes...



I've never hear that in WC. Who told you that, Stan? :rolleyes:

Again, while speed can beat strength, I'm not placing my money on that bet - What if you opponent is stronger AND faster than you? I guess in your case you're just screwed yeah? You can't always hope you are faster than the next guy, you have to plan for the opposite to be true. And in WC, it is superior structure, position, leverage and control of time/space that gives the best chance to beat a faster or stronger guy.