Wing Chun Stiff and Rigid?

[Yoshiyahu]

Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?

Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijxerG8-pik

Wing Chun Chi Sau Flow drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijxerG8-pik)

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijxerG8-pik

Wing Chun Chi Sau Flow drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijxerG8-pik)

Typical mainland Wing Chun. Looks a little like what I have seen in Fatsan.

FWIW This isn't Chisau ;)

[JPinAZ]

Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?

Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?

Why would you ask this question? Do you already have an answer yourself, or looking for help?

From an energy perspective, flow/lau is not a constant, but used when it's necessary. As are thing like chung/crashing, saat/chopping, fa/neutralizing and ying/structured energies. Sometimes you will find them necessary in combinations as well.

IMO, to always be flowing or 'like water' means you have no real point of reference which causss you to always have a floating bridge and no sense of a true centerline. In other words, you have no self identity and are forced to always be in constant reaction to your opponent which is considered chasing.

[Yoshiyahu]

Typical mainland Wing Chun. Looks a little like what I have seen in Fatsan.

FWIW This isn't Chisau ;)

Just because the structure, intention and form is different than what your use too...doesn't make any less chi sau than what your currently doing...If you were to travel back in the time before Yip Man Western students were born...you would see chi sau probably looking more like the video!




Why would you ask this question? Do you already have an answer yourself, or looking for help?

From an energy perspective, flow/lau is not a constant, but used when it's necessary. As are thing like chung/crashing, saat/chopping, fa/neutralizing and ying/structured energies. Sometimes you will find them necessary in combinations as well.

IMO, to always be flowing or 'like water' means you have no real point of reference which causss you to always have a floating bridge and no sense of a true centerline. In other words, you have no self identity and are forced to always be in constant reaction to your opponent which is considered chasing.

I am asking the question to get a discussion started because the forums has slowed down alot...just to get people talking...I like your analogy on flowing. I guess you see Flow as Fan Sau. which is what i mean...I am speaking from a purely fighting or sparring point of view how ever...

IMHO there are two ways to flow...Offensively and Defensively...or if you will aggressively and reactionary. Why chase your opponent unless he is trying to retreat from your fist in his face, why react to a opponent who is still or not advancing. How can you react to a punch if no punch is thrown or how can you react to a kick if no kicks are launched? When I flow its primarly for attacking aggressively. An the flow continues once my opponent changes...I adapt and feel my opponent struggle or attempt to counter attack or defense. I remove, redirect or dissipate his force as needed whilst continuing to attack relentlessly.

Center Line what is your definition of the centerline...When fighting or sparring my goal is to maintain control of my opponents centerline. If i can keep his attacking line away from my centerline I am where i want to be. Mistakes may happen or the opponent may be better. But evitable the goal is to control his structure so i can hit him easily with out him having the ability to hit me in return.

Bridges to me means when you have contact with your opponent. In simple terms a bridge can be from shoulder to shoulder, leg to leg, knee to knee or body to body...But when I say bridge i mean Arms are connected or touching. The bridge allows me to control, redirect and feel my opponents intent more accurately. But No one who wants to win is going to allow me to bridge with them for prolonged periods. Once i begin touching their guards either they gonna hit me or move they arms back. When my opponent strikes I either intercept and control the centerline upon initial contact of the bridge or react to attack an redirect the energy to cut off his force and regain the center line. With each new strike he launches I will have new bridges created. But if his guards are drawn back or he moves his arm so i can not bridge. I am not finna wait for his arms to connect with. I will continue to attack him an hit his face in...Up Until he attempts to strike or cover or block my attacks. Then i go back to control the center line control his structure. In a fight there is no such thing as a static bridge! My Force is always going Forward. My horse is always moving into the opponent. I am flowing aggressively and relentlessy hitting my opponent continously.

Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack...You may break his rhythm by sweep or throw or pull or a push or even a hard hit. But once he regains his structure he will continue on attacking you like water...

[JPinAZ]

.I like your analogy on flowing. I guess you see Flow as Fan Sau.

Your guess would be wrong. I am talking from an energy perspective, you're talking technique.


which is what i mean...I am speaking from a purely fighting or sparring point of view how ever...

So am I. I don't even get what you're talking about, why would you think I'm not talking about WC from a fighting or sparring POV? Are you saying there is no energy exchange in a fight when using WC?
Or do you think WC has a more important use besides for fighting?


Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack...

You sound like someone that doesn't have a clue what they are even talking about. If you have really put in all the time sparring with different MA's that you claim to have, or been in a real street fight you wouldn't be making silly statements like above. FWIW, I know plenty of 'street fighters' that are defensive/counter-fighters that don't just come in swinging all the time - what you're talking about are scrubs with little to no skill, which are not even relevent to the discussion in most cases.

A fight is a fight, street, sport or otherwise. Yes, 'sport-fights' have rules, but the skills used are the same regardless the location or setting - and you're going to find a lot higher degree of skilled opponents with a better idea of 'flow' with sport fighters than you will on the 'street' (whether they call it flow or not is another matter).
Are you saying wrestlers or grapplers have no concept of 'flowing'?
Are you saying boxers have no idea of how to react to an opponent?

[Yoshiyahu]

Ground Grapplers do nothing but flow...From one technique to the next until they get a submission or loose the connection...Boxers can counter from the bob and weave and in some cases meet an attack with an preemptive attack.


As for outside sparring and rule based ring fights...Yes i agree a brawler with less skill may infact charge in to take your head off. Which is why a brawler can defeat you because he is thinking about ending the fight quickly and your thinking about prolonging it. its some defensive street fighters out there...But alot of them if angry enough are going to charge in swinging on you...One thing that makes WC strong is that mentality...That constant forward pressure and continous forward motion of being attacked continously.


AS for energy...Flow is an energy i dont deny that...But when i say flow i mean the difference between static or choppy attacks that are one two one two attacks like point sparring or something like a drill or self defense technique...oppose to all out fighting with a constinous flow of attacks.

Are you a defensive fighter with your wing chun? do you wait on your opponent to make the first move or attack an counter? Do you move in an out of range with wing chun like an outside fighter?

Or do you aggressively charged your opponents space with chasing horse and darting horse while punching, kicking, grappling an attacking?


Your guess would be wrong. I am talking from an energy perspective, you're talking technique.



So am I. I don't even get what you're talking about, why would you think I'm not talking about WC from a fighting or sparring POV? Are you saying there is no energy exchange in a fight when using WC?
Or do you think WC has a more important use besides for fighting?



You sound like someone that doesn't have a clue what they are even talking about. If you have really put in all the time sparring with different MA's that you claim to have, or been in a real street fight you wouldn't be making silly statements like above. FWIW, I know plenty of 'street fighters' that are defensive/counter-fighters that don't just come in swinging all the time - what you're talking about are scrubs with little to no skill, which are not even relevent to the discussion in most cases.

A fight is a fight, street, sport or otherwise. Yes, 'sport-fights' have rules, but the skills used are the same regardless the location or setting - and you're going to find a lot higher degree of skilled opponents with a better idea of 'flow' with sport fighters than you will on the 'street' (whether they call it flow or not is another matter).
Are you saying wrestlers or grapplers have no concept of 'flowing'?
Are you saying boxers have no idea of how to react to an opponent?

[Lee Chiang Po]

You can easily see where Chi Sao can create poor fighting habits. If you just look that is. Chi sao was first only 2 man, or multiple man drills where each man could get in some practice for applying his attack and defense weapons. Getting familiar with his tool so to speak. Over time, in particularly in the west, people could not stop there and loved to chi sao so much that it became something alive and full of itself. It can steal your ability to effectively fight.
Being like water is so simple. It was never meant to be phylisophical in nature, but just something that describes something else within nature. Water has no real form and it will always take the shortest route of the very least resistance. It can take several paths at the same time. But more than anything else, once it begins to move, it does not have to move real fast. It moves constantly, seeking it's own level. You can not catch it no matter how fast you are because it moved first and continues to move as a constant. You can block it, but it will seek another route. You can not stop it. Chi Sao will not get you there.

[EternalSpring]

Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?


Nope, my Ving Tsun is stiff and rigid because, as my sifu says, i'm too tense and the tensest person he's ever met :o



Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?



I try to, but I dont want to make it seem like it's something where I just go on and on when sparring. It's more that when I started sparring, I usually went for 1-2 hits. Now, I'd like to hit more and cut out certain bad habits which would lead to me hitting more often by using every opening to it's maximum level (it sounds cool when i say it like that, in short, im a no0b who misses lots of good hits because i hesitate at times). At the same time, I also dont see endless flow as just attacks or defense. Imho, the flow is in accordance with the way the "fight" goes.



What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?

Water flows with anything while still being water. That's what it means to me: flow with anything without being controlled by what you're flowing with. It really applies to anything imo.

random examples:

-I dont let an opponent control me with his strategy, but i will use his strategy and exploit it somehow (ideally that is)

-I dont let a forumer troll me but instead I deal with them in a way that makes them look silly and desperate through their own words without me stooping to their level

-I may be totally behind on my schedule for the day but I learn how to utilize each moment to its fullest regardless of whether or not my day is going exactly as I planned.

imo, being like water basically means smoothly flowing with any circumstances/events/etc in the optimal way.

[LoneTiger108]

Just because the structure, intention and form is different than what your use too...doesn't make any less chi sau than what your currently doing...If you were to travel back in the time before Yip Man Western students were born...you would see chi sau probably looking more like the video!

Here we go! :D

Firstly, Ip Man never taught any westerners, so if you want to point the finger at anyone point it in the direction of his students that spread his teachings worldwide like Wong Shun Leung, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Lee Shing etc and from my experience they have all done a good job, unique and individual interpretations, but good all the same.

Secondly, if you had ever bothered to look at any of my own clips you might have seen that I personally do not advocate the typical Chisau platform, I rotate in various ways and have different names for different intentions, Chisau being only one of our interactive exercises. So, in short I know exactly what the guys are doing in the clip which is why I stated it isn't Chisau. Have a look at how we interact with 'flow' and tell me if you do anything like this... http://youtu.be/tx0ID9XEZ6E?t=1m40s

Finally, will you stop using ye olde 'travel back in time' cr4p because I personally do not think you have learnt enough Wing Chun yourself to even highlight what the differences could be. That's not to say we all can't speculate, but I find it far more useful to discuss what you have seen and done 'first hand'.

[LoneTiger108]

You can easily see where Chi Sao can create poor fighting habits. If you just look that is. Chi sao was first only 2 man, or multiple man drills where each man could get in some practice for applying his attack and defense weapons. Getting familiar with his tool so to speak. Over time, in particularly in the west, people could not stop there and loved to chi sao so much that it became something alive and full of itself. It can steal your ability to effectively fight.

From all of your posts sir, I believe this may be my all time favourite. You hit the nail on the head and I think everybody should read this quote and take on it's content seriously to avoid falling into the traps so many of our peers have, knowingly or not.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?

Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
A strike should never appear rigid. There is no hope for the guys who pose after every strike. I have trained beginners out of it, but I have never seen an adult over come it.

Blocks should be rigid. Floppy wrist larp-fu isn't going to cut it.

[wingchunIan]

Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?
WC should never be stiff or rigid as it implies an inability to change and being stiff or rigid diminishes power not maximises it. I suspect you may be confusing structure with rigidity or stiffness.


Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?

What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?

This is the same question twice in effect. I believe the original intent of the phrase "be like water" simply meant if you meet an obstacle flow round it to find the holes and if you find a hole no matter how small go through it. Obviously one can expand the metaphor to illustrate all sorts of points.
If you are utilising continuous or endless flow to use your words then you are either partnered with someone of exactly the same ability as yourself and you are both so good that you never make mistakes or you are doing something wrong. "Flowing" stops once a hole is found until an attempt is made by the other side to plug the gap, when you flow into the next gap. Trying to artificially maintain a "flow" leads to arm chasing and some very pretty but highly ineffective practise.

[JPinAZ]

First you say

Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack

But then you say

Ground Grapplers do nothing but flow.....Boxers can counter from the bob and weave and in some cases meet an attack with an preemptive attack.

So which is it? Do only your deadly street fighter scrubs have flow, or do sport fighters understand it too?


AS for energy...Flow is an energy i dont deny that...But when i say flow i mean the difference between static or choppy attacks that are one two one two attacks like point sparring or something like a drill or self defense technique...oppose to all out fighting with a constinous flow of attacks.

Ok, now I get your point - you're talking about a very basic understanding of 'flow' as in regards chaining your actions together. All MA's have this. I thought you were asking something a little deeper in regards to WC specifically. My mistake. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

JPinAZ okay wow...now you have me curious...Hmmm what do you mean by FLOW or what you thought i meant by wing chun specifically having Flow? Please enlighten me....I know its off subject but i wont understand the other schools of thought concerning flow or continous motion?


As for non-sport fights...i meant something like point karate where you hit an break or boxing or kick boxing where you back away or move away to calculate your next move...


First you say


But then you say


So which is it? Do only your deadly street fighter scrubs have flow, or do sport fighters understand it too?



Ok, now I get your point - you're talking about a very basic understanding of 'flow' as in regards chaining your actions together. All MA's have this. I thought you were asking something a little deeper in regards to WC specifically. My mistake. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

I check the clip below...No offense but is this your video?

If is Not...I wasnt impressed...First of all they lack whole body connection...basically their hands are flowering around doing stuff...This is not what i mean by flow...Hands and feet move together. Either your moving an striking or kicking an striking at the same time...When i say moving i mean moving in on your opponent constantly.


your right about Yips students...i still refer to westerners as yip man lineage...any way i digress...

where are your clips located?


Here we go! :D

Firstly, Ip Man never taught any westerners, so if you want to point the finger at anyone point it in the direction of his students that spread his teachings worldwide like Wong Shun Leung, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Lee Shing etc and from my experience they have all done a good job, unique and individual interpretations, but good all the same.

Secondly, if you had ever bothered to look at any of my own clips you might have seen that I personally do not advocate the typical Chisau platform, I rotate in various ways and have different names for different intentions, Chisau being only one of our interactive exercises. So, in short I know exactly what the guys are doing in the clip which is why I stated it isn't Chisau. Have a look at how we interact with 'flow' and tell me if you do anything like this... http://youtu.be/tx0ID9XEZ6E?t=1m40s

Finally, will you stop using ye olde 'travel back in time' cr4p because I personally do not think you have learnt enough Wing Chun yourself to even highlight what the differences could be. That's not to say we all can't speculate, but I find it far more useful to discuss what you have seen and done 'first hand'.

[JPinAZ]

JPinAZ okay wow...now you have me curious...Hmmm what do you mean by FLOW or what you thought i meant by wing chun specifically having Flow? Please enlighten me....I know its off subject but i wont understand the other schools of thought concerning flow or continous motion?

As for non-sport fights...i meant something like point karate where you hit an break or boxing or kick boxing where you back away or move away to calculate your next move...

I have no idea what you are asking or what you are even talking about now. I Have nothing more to say to you on this subject.

[JPinAZ]

I check the clip below...No offense but is this your video?

If is Not...I wasnt impressed...First of all they lack whole body connection...basically their hands are flowering around doing stuff...This is not what i mean by flow...Hands and feet move together. Either your moving an striking or kicking an striking at the same time...When i say moving i mean moving in on your opponent constantly.


LoneTiger, forget everything this guy is saying.
This is coming from the same guy that thinks that the following clips are representitive of top notch training and good, 'strong' punches & attacks. He'll probably even tell you they represent the 'good flow' that he is referring too!
(These are some clips of guys yoshi occasionally trains with that are in his same lineage and also live in St. Louis, of which he holds in high regards as 'good fighters'. :rolleyes:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nJb3Cbr-kU&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaWgzDDN5g&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=3&feature=plcp

[SAAMAG]

I threw up in my mouth after watching those clips.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I threw up in my mouth after watching those clips.

Van, that sort of Wing Chun requires tremendous foot speed and foot work. It works best if you can get a guy to chase you. When I was a kid, I got guys to chase me and drilled them off of the jut and pac. The key is that you have to move. They were stationary for the camera.

I understand that you aren't as familiar with that brand of WC, but I assure you that it can be effective. If you have the right attributes versus your opponent.


Now I am not saying that those clips were the best I have ever seen, but I recognized the limited space with the camera is a problem

[JPinAZ]

The camera was pretty far back and they had more than enough space to demonstrate their WC. The fact is, if someone needs more than an entire backyard to run around and have someone 'chase' them to make any WC work, then they probably don't understand WC at all and are doing something else entirely (this also goes for those that would advocate doing this, or anyone defending these clips).

And I'll hold my comments on the 'quality' of these clips, I think they speak for themselves, as well as the POV yoshi is coming from ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

The camera was pretty far back and they had more than enough space to demonstrate their WC. The fact is, if someone needs more than an entire backyard to run around and have someone 'chase' them to make any WC work, then they probably don't understand WC at all and are doing something else entirely (this also goes for those that would advocate doing this, or anyone defending these clips).

And I'll hold my comments on the 'quality' of these clips, I think they speak for themselves, as well as the POV yoshi is coming from ;)

I think that this speaks pretty clearly to your mental and physical limitations as a fighter. Stay out of any real fights so that you don't get banged out in 3 seconds.

[JPinAZ]

I think that this speaks pretty clearly to your mental and physical limitations as a fighter. Stay out of any real fights so that you don't get banged out in 3 seconds.

No, the quote below speaks volumes for someone that doesn't have a clue about WC, or fighting with it (along with making you sound like you're a closet puff boy):


...Wing Chun requires tremendous foot speed and foot work. It works best if you can get a guy to chase you. When I was a kid, I got guys to chase me and drilled them off of the jut and pac. The key is that you have to move.

Keep defending those 'great' clips I posted, it's a perfect indication of what you know and don't know :rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

Van, that sort of Wing Chun requires tremendous foot speed and foot work. It works best if you can get a guy to chase you. When I was a kid, I got guys to chase me and drilled them off of the jut and pac. The key is that you have to move. They were stationary for the camera.


That sounds like your brand of Wing Chun. Running away. I'm sure it would work even better for you if you did the running while waving a white flag and calling out "uncle" at the top of your lungs. But I'm sure that was a big part of your childhood training.

Now that you're older do you still have guys chase you and then drill them when they are stationary for the camera? Do you make a lot of money selling those videos?

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, the quote below speaks volumes for someone that doesn't have a clue about WC, or fighting with it (along with making you sound like you're a closet puff boy):



Keep defending those 'great' clips I posted, it's a perfect indication of what you know and don't know :rolleyes:
Okay, post something to show us how you do it? Show us how you go about getting K.Oed.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That sounds like your brand of Wing Chun. Running away. I'm sure it would work even better for you if you did the running while waving a white flag and calling out "uncle" at the top of your lungs. But I'm sure that was a big part of your childhood training.

Now that you're older do you still have guys chase you and then drill them when they are stationary for the camera? Do you make a lot of money selling those videos?

Your claim to fame is going to a smoker in the 80's and getting destroyed. It's not a brand of WC. It's just something that I did a lot when I was a teen fighting bigger stronger opponents. When Victor posted here, we talked a lot about this because he was a small guy. If you conception of WC is the clash and grapple, you probably loose against anyone who is the least bit heavier than you.

[GlennR]

Van, that sort of Wing Chun requires tremendous foot speed and foot work. It works best if you can get a guy to chase you. When I was a kid, I got guys to chase me and drilled them off of the jut and pac. The key is that you have to move. They were stationary for the camera.

I understand that you aren't as familiar with that brand of WC, but I assure you that it can be effective. If you have the right attributes versus your opponent.


Now I am not saying that those clips were the best I have ever seen, but I recognized the limited space with the camera is a problem

It all makes sense now ;)

[LoneTiger108]

LoneTiger, forget everything this guy is saying.
This is coming from the same guy that thinks that the following clips are representitive of top notch training and good, 'strong' punches & attacks. He'll probably even tell you they represent the 'good flow' that he is referring too!
(These are some clips of guys yoshi occasionally trains with that are in his same lineage and also live in St. Louis, of which he holds in high regards as 'good fighters'. :rolleyes:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nJb3Cbr-kU&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaWgzDDN5g&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=3&feature=plcp

Thanks for the heads up dude but I have seen these clips before.

I'm always open to peoples opinions of what I do, especially since I put a small troupe up in such a public demo I guess you could say I'm asking for trouble lol! And I see totally what you're saying but I don't want to get into all the negativity anymore to be honest.

Personally It looks quite clear to me that the guys in the clips learnt from Youtube and I have nothing further to say about that!!

But IF they learnt that stuff from a Sifu?? They could have copied this instead as at least this dude looks like he knows what he is doing and why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0&feature=related


I check the clip below...No offense but is this your video?

If is Not...I wasnt impressed...First of all they lack whole body connection...basically their hands are flowering around doing stuff...

Well, yes that is me and my kung fu bro taking the guys out to demonstrate what we do and how we train. Sorry it doesn't conform to your own ideas of what you think Wing Chun is, but from looking through your clips I have to say I am quite pleased that it doesn't.


your right about Yips students...i still refer to westerners as yip man lineage...any way i digress...

You are a westerner right? From Loiusville or something? Or at least the guys in the clips are right? Your post here wreaks of some superiority complex about being from a non-Ip Man lineage.

How long have you learnt Wing Chun exactly and from who? Does your own Sifu (if you have one) also support your attitude towards Ip Mans western influence?
Forgive me for digressing!!


where are your clips located?

Good olde UK dude. Birmingham in fact, at The Martial Arts Show. Supporting the establishment of a new group of like minded guys called the British Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Association - linking many older systems under one umbrella.

I prefer to listen to their expert opinions and advice rather than the ranting of some random dude overseas who promotes clips of guys who look like they can't even walk...

[Wayfaring]

Your claim to fame is going to a smoker in the 80's and getting destroyed. It's not a brand of WC. It's just something that I did a lot when I was a teen fighting bigger stronger opponents. When Victor posted here, we talked a lot about this because he was a small guy. If you conception of WC is the clash and grapple, you probably loose against anyone who is the least bit heavier than you.

Ah, now I get it. Little man's syndrome. Do you wear platform shoes and drive a truck with a lift kit on it too?

[imperialtaichi]

My brand of WC is to focus on relentlessly attacking the opponent instead of continually dealing with his attacks.

I rather move in, take a hit but dominate the fight, instead of staying on the back foot and continually receiving the opponent's attack.

Do not assume that, by focusing on defending, one can sneak in a hit and turn the game around. Most people can take a few hits unless your hits are like being hit by a truck. And don't forget while you are on the defensive your balance and power could be compromised and your strikes may not be as powerful as during bag work or training.

Dominate, focus on the task, keep attacking until your opponent is down. Then strike him some more just in case.

[SAAMAG]

And I'll put it this way...if I was those guys on those videos...I wouldn't post anything...ever.

It's not the fact that they're stationary per say, or that they have trouble speaking English, or that they are out of shape, can't punch, don't practice in a manner conducive to actual combat, have poor fighting posture...oh...wait....yes it is.

Carry on then.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I would leave alone how people talk. That can come of as pretty racist. More generally, it's just not a classy thing to say.

[SAAMAG]

While it may not seem classy, nothing I said wasn't accurate. But racist?! :rolleyes: One of my best friends is black, and he speaks very intelligently. I have another close friend who's white who can't articulate hardly at all. Nothing to do with race...stop assuming and more specifically implying things.

[HumbleWCGuy]

While it may not seem classy, nothing I said wasn't accurate. But racist?! :rolleyes: One of my best friends is black, and he speaks very intelligently. I have another close friend who's white who can't articulate hardly at all. Nothing to do with race...stop assuming and more specifically implying things.
I was mainly referring to the perception that you can give off by saying certain things. Take my advice or leave it. It is up to you. Certain actions have their own rewards and punishments.

Edit: I don't think that you are a racist. It's just a little friendly advice.

[JPinAZ]

I would leave alone how people talk. That can come of as pretty racist. More generally, it's just not a classy thing to say.

The only reason you are saying this is you assume it is based on the color of the people's skin in the clip because of how YOU see them, and then judging others' comments accordingly. That stinks of racism on your end.


I was mainly referring to the perception that you can give off by saying certain things. Take my advice or leave it. It is up to you. Certain actions have their own rewards and punishments.

Edit: I don't think that you are a racist. It's just a little friendly advice.

Telling people how to talk isn't friendly, lil guy.

His comment was no more racist than your assumption that it was based on how you view the people in the clips. I think most of us here just saw 2 guys doing bad WC.
BTW, how one talks is typically either cultural or eduactional (or lack of) - has nothing to do with race, so let it go before you make yourself look even more foolish that you already do

[HumbleWCGuy]

The only reason you are saying this is you assume it is based on the color of the people's skin in the clip because of how YOU see them, and then judging others' comments accordingly. That stinks of racism on your end.



Telling people how to talk isn't friendly, lil guy.

His comment was no more racist than your assumption that it was based on how you view the people in the clips. I think most of us here just saw 2 guys doing bad WC.
BTW, how one talks is typically either cultural or eduactional (or lack of) - has nothing to do with race, so let it go before you make yourself look even more foolish that you already do

Well... It's obvious that that you lack a college education.

[JPinAZ]

When I was a kid, I got guys to chase me and drilled them
Enough said :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

Your claim to fame is going to a smoker in the 80's and getting destroyed. It's not a brand of WC. It's just something that I did a lot when I was a teen fighting bigger stronger opponents. When Victor posted here, we talked a lot about this because he was a small guy. If you conception of WC is the clash and grapple, you probably loose against anyone who is the least bit heavier than you.


Ah, now I get it. Little man's syndrome. Do you wear platform shoes and drive a truck with a lift kit on it too?

LOL - you're killing me Dave (Wayfaring)! Thanks for helping make working on a Saturday a bit more fun :D

[SAAMAG]

I don't think Dave meant anything by it. He's right in that it was a little tasteless to say something like that, as it doesn't have any direct link to the viability of one's wing chun skill. Indirectly though, it does give insight as to the general intelligence of an individual. If one cannot grasp something as fundamental as verbal speech to relay thoughts---how can they understand and relay understanding of the physicality's of combat?

Now I'm sure that the fellas in the video are decent people. They probably go to church, pay their bills, help others when they can, train with a self-perceived fervor that rivals an MMA fighter...and all that stuff.

But I keep thinking of that saying when I watch this video: "Better to let someone think you're an idiot than open your mouth and confirm it."

[Yoshiyahu]

wow this post has been derailed...

Thanks Humble guy for your humble post...

An imperial Tai Chi thanks your on Point! i agree with your philosphy concerning fighting....When you fight its not time to wait an defensive...its time to move in for the kill....

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Tiger Let me address your questions:

When i say westernern i mean those who ancestors originated from the west...My people originated from the east...Not Europe...So i am no way an westerner...

AS FOR THE GUY IN THE CLIP...He learned from a guy named bersied...forgive the spelling of his name...An Bernsied teacher is Robert McField...i will make some post of their beginner videos soon...

The guys in the clip are Stan and his Son...they are from saint louis...Missouri...

As for the demo...it looked rather non-useful and non-combative...I mean its a demo so i guess its cool. But i just dont see it as realistic...


I been doing WC since i was 16...im 35 now....As for Yip Man...im simply pointing out the differences...Yip and Main land have both weakness and strong points. Which is great in itself...The Yip man Wooden dummy is great for uprooting power....ne way...its not to put it down just point out differences...sorry if your offended...my apology....


Thanks for the heads up dude but I have seen these clips before.

I'm always open to peoples opinions of what I do, especially since I put a small troupe up in such a public demo I guess you could say I'm asking for trouble lol! And I see totally what you're saying but I don't want to get into all the negativity anymore to be honest.

Personally It looks quite clear to me that the guys in the clips learnt from Youtube and I have nothing further to say about that!!

But IF they learnt that stuff from a Sifu?? They could have copied this instead as at least this dude looks like he knows what he is doing and why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0&feature=related



Well, yes that is me and my kung fu bro taking the guys out to demonstrate what we do and how we train. Sorry it doesn't conform to your own ideas of what you think Wing Chun is, but from looking through your clips I have to say I am quite pleased that it doesn't.



You are a westerner right? From Loiusville or something? Or at least the guys in the clips are right? Your post here wreaks of some superiority complex about being from a non-Ip Man lineage.

How long have you learnt Wing Chun exactly and from who? Does your own Sifu (if you have one) also support your attitude towards Ip Mans western influence?
Forgive me for digressing!!



Good olde UK dude. Birmingham in fact, at The Martial Arts Show. Supporting the establishment of a new group of like minded guys called the British Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Association - linking many older systems under one umbrella.

I prefer to listen to their expert opinions and advice rather than the ranting of some random dude overseas who promotes clips of guys who look like they can't even walk...

[Yoshiyahu]

wow your good at posting Kung Fu Stans videos...wow you must really be watching his videos learning WC from him...Good good i hope he makes you better....



Personally i dont keep videos i dont like on hand to reguirtate to discuss over and over again!!!



LoneTiger, forget everything this guy is saying.
This is coming from the same guy that thinks that the following clips are representitive of top notch training and good, 'strong' punches & attacks. He'll probably even tell you they represent the 'good flow' that he is referring too!
(These are some clips of guys yoshi occasionally trains with that are in his same lineage and also live in St. Louis, of which he holds in high regards as 'good fighters'. :rolleyes:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nJb3Cbr-kU&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaWgzDDN5g&list=UUlokgXUBs0jKwRFcELOAHDA&index=3&feature=plcp

[wtxs]

wow your good at posting Kung Fu Stans videos...wow you must really be watching his videos learning WC from him...Good good i hope he makes you better....

Personally i dont keep videos i dont like on hand to reguirtate to discuss over and over again!!!


The issue with JPinAZ and many others are having is your constant rant of your superior WC knowledge. The videos are to prove the point ... which went over your head ... once again

If memory serves me, YOU yourself had posted similar videos of Stan The Man awhile back, which end up in an long winded thread.

[JPinAZ]

And if Yoshi is going to come here and tear apart another person's video, a baseline of some clips of what he thinks is 'good' WC training is only fair (which is why I posted those gawd-aweful ones of his clown boy stan)

[Bacon]

Okay I figured I'd wait to way in on this.

Stiff is not good. Stiff means you're using too much muscle and in the wrong place which means you can be drawn in, pushed out, and redirected very easily.

My bong sau arm is relaxed but you can't punch through it. It's strong because the structure is good but not because I use muscle.

Now there os an element of moving to find the holes in an opponent's defences but it doesn't mean you should be slipping around like a snake. You keep good structure and if theirs is bad enough you can strike right through it... Do so. There is also blending with and avoiding strikes so powerful you cannot deflect through structure but again you have to keep as good structure as possible and not flit about.

Muscle = stiff
Structure = strong

Knowing when to use each yields success.

[LoneTiger108]

AS FOR THE GUY IN THE CLIP...He learned from a guy named bersied...forgive the spelling of his name...An Bernsied teacher is Robert McField...i will make some post of their beginner videos soon...

It's okay you can spare me a beginners video. Of course if you think it's relevant to further discussions that's up to you but I think I have seen enough from theis 'Stan' cat


As for the demo...it looked rather non-useful and non-combative...I mean its a demo so i guess its cool. But i just dont see it as realistic...

Ok. Which are you talking about? Mine or Stans?? And is that really a 'comparison'?



I been doing WC since i was 16...im 35 now....

Learning from who exactly?? I am a firm believer in quality over quantity any day and I have seen examples of this throughout my personal journey. Some good and some bad but most that play the 'I have been doing Wing Chun for x years' seem to be of the bad category unfortunately.

I started Wing Chun at 19 but was doing Martial Arts since 9. I am 37 now so we aint that different on the time front. So post a clip of yourself doing something to compare, that would be cool :)


...sorry if your offended...my apology....

I wasn't but I thought others could be. No probs.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The only reason you are saying this is you assume it is based on the color of the people's skin in the clip because of how YOU see them, and then judging others' comments accordingly. That stinks of racism on your end.



Telling people how to talk isn't friendly, lil guy.

His comment was no more racist than your assumption that it was based on how you view the people in the clips. I think most of us here just saw 2 guys doing bad WC.
BTW, how one talks is typically either cultural or eduactional (or lack of) - has nothing to do with race, so let it go before you make yourself look even more foolish that you already do

Don't you defeat guys with your chi? LOL

[JPinAZ]

Don't you defeat guys with your chi? LOL

WTF are you even talking about? And didn't you reply to this already?
Obviously you are hard up for attention having to re-reply to posts. Must be a sad day in Trollsville..

[Yoshiyahu]

The issue with JPinAZ and many others are having is your constant rant of your superior WC knowledge. The videos are to prove the point ... which went over your head ... once again

If memory serves me, YOU yourself had posted similar videos of Stan The Man awhile back, which end up in an long winded thread.


For one superiority can only be judged in martial arts...by doing martial arts...Not forms, not videos, not postulating about basic therories or principles or application...But actually feeling someones elses kung fu...actually fighting with what you know...The superior fighter is the one who is best...The one who wins is superior...As for superior WC...That can only be sought after by touching hands...

if we spar an you I defeat you...im a superior fighter...If we do chi sau an you best me in Chi Sau...your superior at chi sau than I am!

[wtxs]

For one superiority can only be judged in martial arts...by doing martial arts...Not forms, not videos, not postulating about basic therories or principles or application...But actually feeling someones elses kung fu...actually fighting with what you know...The superior fighter is the one who is best...The one who wins is superior...As for superior WC...That can only be sought after by touching hands...

Do well for you follow your own advise ... ZZZZzzzzzzz

[Yoshiyahu]

Do well for you follow your own advise ... ZZZZzzzzzzz

Then until you touch hands with me...you can not judge me...Spar or Chi Sau...call it what you want!

[wtxs]

Then until you touch hands with me...you can not judge me...Spar or Chi Sau...call it what you want!

OOOooouh ... you had me wetting my shorts with that MANLY talk. I'm go'na have to track down your "Grand Master", and beg him to teach me the secret technique (which you weren't shown) to beat you.

And just for backup, I'm working with the yoga ball to further develop my spring energy internal power, so you better watch out.

[Yoshiyahu]

OOOooouh ... you had me wetting my shorts with that MANLY talk. I'm go'na have to track down your "Grand Master", and beg him to teach me the secret technique (which you weren't shown) to beat you.

And just for backup, I'm working with the yoga ball to further develop my spring energy internal power, so you better watch out.

Track down MCField and Spar him an defeat him...An i will be begging you to teach me!

[JPinAZ]

Oh no!!! The great big tough internet challenges from you are here again!
You're pretty good at this, you talk some junk here, then you tell people they should go fight mr. so-and-so to prove you wrong? You did this same thing with me and that clown stan a while back when you were defending his horrible punching.
Haha, you're like the 3rd grader talking tough at school, and then says you're going to go get your daddy when someone calls you on it! what a tool... :rolleyes:

[wtxs]

Oh no!!! The great big tough internet challenges from you are here again!
You're pretty good at this, you talk some junk here, then you tell people they should go fight mr. so-and-so to prove you wrong? You did this same thing with me and that clown stan a while back when you were defending his horrible punching.
Haha, you're like the 3rd grader talking tough at school, and then says you're going to go get your daddy when someone calls you on it! what a tool... :rolleyes:

Hey JP, it's about time you jump in man. But I'm afraid now he'll be crying to his master that some internet bullies are ganging up on him ... and you know they will be come looking for us don't you?:p:p:p

[Yoshiyahu]

Your humor is funny dude...thanks for not actually contributing to the wing chun forum...Thanks for being a critic with no real value!



Oh no!!! The great big tough internet challenges from you are here again!
You're pretty good at this, you talk some junk here, then you tell people they should go fight mr. so-and-so to prove you wrong? You did this same thing with me and that clown stan a while back when you were defending his horrible punching.
Haha, you're like the 3rd grader talking tough at school, and then says you're going to go get your daddy when someone calls you on it! what a tool... :rolleyes:

[mickwat]

Sorry I joined this forum because I thought it would be good to connect with other guys who have a passion or at least a real interest in Wing Chun but Cmon guys really its like my Dad is bigger than your Dad every single thread I have read on here starts with a simple question or idea and ends up with this kinda rubbish everyone knows we all do things differently so what get used to it you never know open your mind and you may learn something and anyway your all wrong cause Im the only one who does Wing Chun the correct way haha

[Yoshiyahu]

Sorry I joined this forum because I thought it would be good to connect with other guys who have a passion or at least a real interest in Wing Chun but Cmon guys really its like my Dad is bigger than your Dad every single thread I have read on here starts with a simple question or idea and ends up with this kinda rubbish everyone knows we all do things differently so what get used to it you never know open your mind and you may learn something and anyway your all wrong cause Im the only one who does Wing Chun the correct way haha

wow i agree with you...thanks for lighting the mood!

[mickwat]

I have watched some of the clips posted on here and the people in them seem to be enjoying what they are doing so thats all that matters really theres a lot that I dont agree with and prob would never practice but who am I and lets be honest who are any of you to put people down I was always taught by my Sifu if you have nothing good to say then say nothing I will post some of my clips these were mostly filmed at my BBQ its a annual gathering of Students of Master Joseph Lee, Lee Shing Wing Chun Root & also Gulao (Kulo) has handed down from Fung Sang and its done in fun a group of people enjoying themselves so not a demo http://www.youtube.com/user/mickwat/videos?flow=grid&view=0 if you dont like it or do things differently great thats the beauty of wing chun so varied

[JPinAZ]

if you dont like it or do things differently great thats the beauty of wing chun so varied

IMO, this is exactly what is wrong with WCK. Not your thinking per se, but more the fact that WCK is so varied. They all come from the same source, yet today we see so much conflict and arguing on even the simplest of concepts - even from the same lineage or teacher. And it's even more prelevent when arguing technique, which is even more laughable when it's supposed to be a concept driven system!

As far as the videos go, yeah, it's great that people are having fun, as they should. But the point of WCK is to be efficient and effective as a fighting art. There are far too many clips out there showing little-to-none of this imo. There comes a point where it's not even WC anymore since to many of the primary concepts, principles and body methods simply are not there.
I think this confliting ideas is what is one of the causes for all of the stupid pi55ing matches you see here.

(In saying this, I'm not sying who's right/wrong - myself included. Just pointing out how varied and devided so many people are on even the most simplest of principles in a system that is supposed to be know for it's simplicity!)

[HumbleWCGuy]

WTF are you even talking about? And didn't you reply to this already?
Obviously you are hard up for attention having to re-reply to posts. Must be a sad day in Trollsville..

Translation

Yes, I have vanquished many evil-doers with my chi. I started out doing this primarily in my time spent as a lARPER. In the last two years, I realized that I do truly have chi powers so I have taken to the streets as a masked avenger.

[mickwat]

IMO, this is exactly what is wrong with WCK. Not your thinking per se, but more the fact that WCK is so varied. They all come from the same source, yet today we see so much conflict and arguing on even the simplest of concepts - even from the same lineage or teacher. And it's even more prelevent when arguing technique, which is even more laughable when it's supposed to be a concept driven system!

As far as the videos go, yeah, it's great that people are having fun, as they should. But the point of WCK is to be efficient and effective as a fighting art. There are far too many clips out there showing little-to-none of this imo. There comes a point where it's not even WC anymore since to many of the primary concepts, principles and body methods simply are not there.
I think this confliting ideas is what is one of the causes for all of the stupid pi55ing matches you see here.

(In saying this, I'm not sying who's right/wrong - myself included. Just pointing out how varied and devided so many people are on even the most simplest of principles in a system that is supposed to be know for it's simplicity!)

Thats another point are we from the sane source there is no proof of that only second hand stories handed down over the years the core principles are on the most part the same Im not a demo guy never have been Ive been fighting since I could walk first boxing then my days on the Terraces of West Ham (not my proudest moment) and then 17 pro fights in MMA so I would only do a art that I believe works but theres nothing wrong with doing wing chun for enjoyment and lets be honest the most people online have never had a real fight in their lives and never experienced the fear that comes with it wing chun is a system that is learned then made your own and thats the problem people fail to understand that simple principle and behave like sheep trying to convert everyone to their way of doing things to many egos and to many armchair fighters But I do agree with your point about fighting over techniques also forms who in charge of who whos Ip Man best students and so on drives me mad but again ego I strongly believe wing chun should look like wing chun its a simple concept and lets be honest a simple art that was its desiqn to be effective in the shortest possible time

[Wayfaring]

Translation

1.5, and that's compensating for effort.

[Wayfaring]

Thats another point are we from the sane source there is no proof of that only second hand stories handed down over the years the core principles are on the most part the same Im not a demo guy never have been Ive been fighting since I could walk first boxing then my days on the Terraces of West Ham (not my proudest moment) and then 17 pro fights in MMA so I would only do a art that I believe works but theres nothing wrong with doing wing chun for enjoyment and lets be honest the most people online have never had a real fight in their lives and never experienced the fear that comes with it wing chun is a system that is learned then made your own and thats the problem people fail to understand that simple principle and behave like sheep trying to convert everyone to their way of doing things to many egos and to many armchair fighters

8.5, with little effort given.

[JPinAZ]

Translation

you've lost f'g your mind and are an obvious troll. Nothing more to say to you.
Ignore on

[mickwat]

you've lost f'g your mind and are an obvious troll. Nothing more to say to you.
Ignore on

I have no idea whats going on whats a troll

[Wayfaring]

I have no idea whats going on whats a troll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

[JPinAZ]

Thats another point are we from the sane source there is no proof of that

So are you of the opinion that WCK was developed by unreleated parties in different times and/or location with no connection to each other? And that they named all the systems the same thing by coincidence?

I don't need proof to know this is highly unlikely.


only second hand stories handed down over the years the core principles are on the most part the same

I agree if you mean second hand stories don't really mean much. But in my actual experience, and also just from what one can read here thru the years, the understanding of the core principles is greatly varied among lineage - and even within the same lineage or given branch. Not sure how long you've been on these forums or read thru them, but this becomes pretty clear as you do.


Im not a demo guy never have been Ive been fighting since I could walk first boxing then my days on the Terraces of West Ham (not my proudest moment) and then 17 pro fights in MMA so I would only do a art that I believe works but theres nothing wrong with doing wing chun for enjoyment and lets be honest the most people online have never had a real fight in their lives and never experienced the fear that comes with it wing chun is a system that is learned then made your own and thats the problem people fail to understand that simple principle and behave like sheep trying to convert everyone to their way of doing things to many egos and to many armchair fighters

Not sure why you're giving me your resume, but thanks I guess (?)

I can agree with the rest.

[mickwat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

haha Right ok from what Ive been reading since I joined thats about half the people on here

[JPinAZ]

I have no idea whats going on

Me neither. That's why he got put on my Ignore List :)

[mickwat]

So are you of the opinion that WCK was developed by unreleated parties in different times and/or location with no connection to each other? And that they named all the systems the same thing by coincidence?

I don't need proof to know this is highly unlikely.




I agree if you mean second hand stories don't really mean much. But in my actual experience, and also just from what one can read here thru the years, the understanding of the core principles is greatly varied among lineage - and even within the same lineage or given branch. Not sure how long you've been on these forums or read thru them, but this becomes pretty clear as you do.





Not sure why you're giving me your resume, but thanks I guess (?)

I can agree with the rest.


We can at least trace back to Leung Jan that we can be sure off before that not so sure but I do believe it does come from one source just playing devils advocate

Not long on forums about a week I believe the core principles of Wing Chun should be the same but they can and do get interpreted in different ways which then leads to confusion and yes even within the same family thats always confused me but I have experienced that myself when we released a clip recently of a form a member of our family said that it was made up again I believe this is a ego thing If I dont know it must be made up

Not a resume just an explanation that wing chun is a fighting art and that to know how to fight you must experience it but thanks maybe Il write a book haha

[mickwat]

anyway nice to meet you all I have learned something new tonite I now know what a troll is great stuff I will opt out of this convo now before a troll gets me

[JPinAZ]

We can at least trace back to Leung Jan that we can be sure off before that not so sure but I do believe it does come from one source just playing devils advocate

Not long on forums about a week I believe the core principles of Wing Chun should be the same but they can and do get interpreted in different ways which then leads to confusion and yes even within the same family thats always confused me but I have experienced that myself when we released a clip recently of a form a member of our family said that it was made up again I believe this is a ego thing If I dont know it must be made up

Not a resume just an explanation that wing chun is a fighting art and that to know how to fight you must experience it but thanks maybe Il write a book haha

All cool, I think we're on the same line of thinking. What clip are you referring to? I always like seeing differnt takes on things, even if more times than not they are krap or I don't agree with them :D

Welcome to the forum, you'll love to hate it in no time! And I look forward to your book! haha

**** nevermind, I found your clips! cool that you share what you do.

[mickwat]

All cool, I think we're on the same line of thinking. What clip are you referring to? I always like seeing differnt takes on things, even if more times than not they are krap or I don't agree with them :D

Welcome to the forum, you'll love to hate it in no time! And I look forward to your book! haha

**** nevermind, I found your clips! cool that you share what you do.

This clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGnQLXii8rw&feature=player_detailpage

[HumbleWCGuy]

1.5, and that's compensating for effort.

So when you went to your smoker and were D-E-S-T-R-O-Y-E-D who did you blame most? Did you quit Wing Chun then or did you give it a few weeks yo make it seem like you had too many family obligations to "train."

[Wayfaring]

So when you went to your smoker and were D-E-S-T-R-O-Y-E-D who did you blame most? Did you quit Wing Chun then or did you give it a few weeks yo make it seem like you had too many family obligations to "train."

Son, you have ventured so far into fantasy land you are arguing with the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland.

None of what you are saying even remotely resembles anything I've gone through in my life.

[Yoshiyahu]

So when you fight with WC. Do you utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?

[JPinAZ]

So when you fight with WC. Do you utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?

If not, then you're probably not doing WC.
You seriously had to ask this? What the hell do you think the answer to this is? :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

If not, then you're probably not doing WC.
You seriously had to ask this? What the hell do you think the answer to this is? :rolleyes:

Because it seems to me as your not...Basically a knock em sockem robot who stands in YGKYM with out true footwork...basically an immobile chi sau wing chuin person who has no flow...but moves slow and choppy like a karate man!

[GlennR]

Because it seems to me as your not...Basically a knock em sockem robot who stands in YGKYM with out true footwork...basically an immobile chi sau wing chuin person who has no flow...but moves slow and choppy like a karate man!

Will you please, for the love of God, stop putting "!!!!!" on the end of everything you type!!

[JPinAZ]

Because it seems to me as your not...Basically a knock em sockem robot who stands in YGKYM with out true footwork...basically an immobile chi sau wing chuin person who has no flow...but moves slow and choppy like a karate man!

No offence, but with your poor grammar it's difficult to understand what you're saying or who you are directing it towards. Are you talking about me specifically, or in general?

Either way, I see no reason to even ask "So when you fight with WC. Do you utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?" on a WC forum. This should be an answer that goes without saying and is no mystery.. Or do you really believe that people do this?

[Yoshiyahu]

No offence, but with your poor grammar it's difficult to understand what you're saying or who you are directing it towards. Are you talking about me specifically, or in general?

Either way, I see no reason to even ask "So when you fight with WC. Do you utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?" on a WC forum. This should be an answer that goes without saying and is no mystery.. Or do you really believe that people do this?

i dont know, do you?

[JPinAZ]

i dont know, do you?

you really don't know if people should "utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?"?!? Ok, maybe I gave you far too much credit for your 15+ years experience. :(
The simple answer is yes, you should. But really, it is far too vague of a question to give any further detail without really knowing more specifically what it is you are asking.. Either way, this is an easy question to answer for yourself if you just do some sparring. Wait, I thought you claimed 5000+ hours of in just one year alone (?)

[Yoshiyahu]

you really don't know if people should "utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?"?!? Ok, maybe I gave you far too much credit for your 15+ years experience. :(
The simple answer is yes, you should. But really, it is far too vague of a question to give any further detail without really knowing more specifically what it is you are asking.. Either way, this is an easy question to answer for yourself if you just do some sparring. Wait, I thought you claimed 5000+ hours of in just one year alone (?)

JPinaz imma start a new wing chun clan...You will be our mantra...Our motto is to chain Punch JPinAZ face 1000 times a day...Imma need a picture of you to post on the century bob and wall bags for that endevor!

[Eric_H]

JPinaz imma start a new wing chun clan...You will be our mantra...Our motto is to chain Punch JPinAZ face 1000 times a day...Imma need a picture of you to post on the century bob and wall bags for that endevor!

Yoshiyahu,

While I appreciate the energy you put into the forum, JPinAZ is not wrong in that you could use some more thought in your questions/statements. Responses like this, unfortunately, make you look like a 12 year old living out a kung fu fantasy online.

Try adding more to the forum other than just asking open ended questions, you will see a better result.

Best,

[JPinAZ]

Yoshi, now you are just sounding like a kid with nothing to say so, you act out. I'd laugh if you weren't so sad bordering on pathetic.

Hey, if you want mascot to punch at, print out this clown's goofy mug and hit it - Heck, maybe you even know him ;)
http://www.blackplanet.com/photos/your_page/view.html?pid=26956246&gtid=3&profile_id=43780977&profile_name=BROTHER_KNOWS&user_id=43780977&username=BROTHER_KNOWS
I'm really digging the industrial garbage can 3 feet from where he eats and trolls from...

Interesting 'reading' by this guy as well, sure makes things a lot more clear to be sure:
http://www.blackplanet.com/BROTHER_KNOWS/

[wtxs]

Yoshi, now you are just sounding like a kid with nothing to say so, you act out. I'd laugh if you weren't so sad bordering on pathetic.

Hey, if you want mascot to punch at, print out this clown's goofy mug and hit it - Heck, maybe you even know him ;)
http://www.blackplanet.com/photos/your_page/view.html?pid=26956246&gtid=3&profile_id=43780977&profile_name=BROTHER_KNOWS&user_id=43780977&username=BROTHER_KNOWS
I'm really digging the industrial garbage can 3 feet from where he eats and trolls from...

Interesting 'reading' by this guy as well, sure makes things a lot more clear to be sure:
http://www.blackplanet.com/BROTHER_KNOWS/

You had found the gold mine JP, so his rambling is for real ... I couldn't get pass the first couple sentences before my eyes started to cross ... though my screen was dirty.:p

[Yoshiyahu]

Man i dont even know what you mean...but putting more into the forum!



Yoshiyahu,

While I appreciate the energy you put into the forum, JPinAZ is not wrong in that you could use some more thought in your questions/statements. Responses like this, unfortunately, make you look like a 12 year old living out a kung fu fantasy online.

Try adding more to the forum other than just asking open ended questions, you will see a better result.

Best,

[JPinAZ]

Man i dont even know what you mean...but putting more into the forum!

What, didn't like your new mascot? Nothing 'smart' to say?
http://www.blackplanet.com/your_page/index.html?profile_id=43780977&profile_name=BROTHER_KNOWS&user_id=43780977&username=BROTHER_KNOWS

[Yoshiyahu]

Add more like what?



Yoshiyahu,

While I appreciate the energy you put into the forum, JPinAZ is not wrong in that you could use some more thought in your questions/statements. Responses like this, unfortunately, make you look like a 12 year old living out a kung fu fantasy online.

Try adding more to the forum other than just asking open ended questions, you will see a better result.

Best,

[Eric_H]

Yoshiyahu,

I'd start with this:

http://artofmanliness.com/2010/09/24/the-art-of-conversation/

But consider more than anything the value of your statements and questions.

Personally, I would think most readers would get little value out of:



So when you fight with WC. Do you utilize your structure along with free flowing motions?


Because the answer for any Kung Fu person, not even specific to WC, is going to be a pretty obvious yes. It's a facet of wing chun, and while we all do it differently, all WC has an idea of flowing (lau) and loi lau hoi sung lut sao jit chung.

My 2cents would be to ask fewer questions, but ask questions that have the potential to create more value to people, questions that make them have to reflect on their own training to get an answer.

Best,

[SAAMAG]

That's actually a cool website. I think I'll bookmark it. I haven't reviewed how to remove a fishing barb in a long time. :p

[wtxs]

Add more like what?

Like "substance" ... and I don't mean the kind you would abuse. :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Like "substance" ... and I don't mean the kind you would abuse. :rolleyes:

give me some examples of substance?

[JPinAZ]

give me some examples of substance?

Let me see if I can help, and I mean no slight by this. Go back thru the last 2-3 pages of this thread. You will notice almost all of your posts are just question after question after question. You ask a question, someone answers, you ask another, someone answers, etc. All the way up to this last one. So, very little 'substance'. And this can be seen on most of your threads.

To have a good discussion, there has to be give and take and sharing of ideas - this promotes healthy dialog. You do, on a rare occasion, give your view of things, but typically all the threads you start are asking a lot of questions with no view of your own on the subject and repeat with more questions. Maybe you're just trying to get things going, but it makes you come off as beggar or someone learning WCK over the internet. Now, if we take your word that you have over 15 years experience in WCK, then this is not the case. So for someone to want to talk with you, it is only fair to give some view in return - again, some 'substance'.
Unless you are actually a newbie trying to learn? Which is fine too, but you claim otherwise..

Just my thoughts. Maybe wtxs is thinking something else

[Yoshiyahu]

I asked questions because everyone has different backgrounds...i can go into a spill of what i learn and what i innovated on my own because its what works for me...but what i learned everyone else doesnt know about...an what i devised or figured out that works for me may not work for everybody...

So i share ideas and theory to allude to my points of view and allow others to discuss their view points and their perspectives to enjoy the intellectual side of it. I dont want wanna be one of those guys like T Niehoff and be like your doing WCK all wrong because u dont do this and that...i just simply wish to have a discussion an get people talking...like they did on another thread!



Let me see if I can help, and I mean no slight by this. Go back thru the last 2-3 pages of this thread. You will notice almost all of your posts are just question after question after question. You ask a question, someone answers, you ask another, someone answers, etc. All the way up to this last one. So, very little 'substance'. And this can be seen on most of your threads.

To have a good discussion, there has to be give and take and sharing of ideas - this promotes healthy dialog. You do, on a rare occasion, give your view of things, but typically all the threads you start are asking a lot of questions with no view of your own on the subject and repeat with more questions. Maybe you're just trying to get things going, but it makes you come off as beggar or someone learning WCK over the internet. Now, if we take your word that you have over 15 years experience in WCK, then this is not the case. So for someone to want to talk with you, it is only fair to give some view in return - again, some 'substance'.
Unless you are actually a newbie trying to learn? Which is fine too, but you claim otherwise..

Just my thoughts. Maybe wtxs is thinking something else

[Wayfaring]

I asked questions because everyone has different backgrounds...i can go into a spill of what i learn and what i innovated on my own because its what works for me...but what i learned everyone else doesnt know about...an what i devised or figured out that works for me may not work for everybody...


My feedback. Discussion is good. However, if you start from the most general perspective and ask questions, it isn't. Like for example, lots of threads asking "what is the meaning of life?". Too broad and general. Everyone has already discussed it on other threads. It takes too long to explain. Etc. People want to see the effort YOU put into discussion and to carry it on. Not to have you as a moderator introducing topics but not really contributing to them. We don't want the forum filled with over general convo threads with nobody contributing.



So i share ideas and theory to allude to my points of view and allow others to discuss their view points and their perspectives to enjoy the intellectual side of it. I dont want wanna be one of those guys like T Niehoff and be like your doing WCK all wrong because u dont do this and that...i just simply wish to have a discussion an get people talking...like they did on another thread!

Some of your threads do well. The majority crash and burn. That's not bad, actually. We need to keep the convo going. However, if you'd refine your "too general" threads, it would be a lot better. Try and ask one more level of detail in steps, share one more layer, etc.

My .02.

[wtxs]

Let me see if I can help, and I mean no slight by this. Go back thru the last 2-3 pages of this thread. You will notice almost all of your posts are just question after question after question. You ask a question, someone answers, you ask another, someone answers, etc. All the way up to this last one. So, very little 'substance'. And this can be seen on most of your threads.

To have a good discussion, there has to be give and take and sharing of ideas - this promotes healthy dialog. You do, on a rare occasion, give your view of things, but typically all the threads you start are asking a lot of questions with no view of your own on the subject and repeat with more questions. Maybe you're just trying to get things going, but it makes you come off as beggar or someone learning WCK over the internet. Now, if we take your word that you have over 15 years experience in WCK, then this is not the case. So for someone to want to talk with you, it is only fair to give some view in return - again, some 'substance'.
Unless you are actually a newbie trying to learn? Which is fine too, but you claim otherwise..

Just my thoughts. Maybe wtxs is thinking something else

JP ... didn't you say some thing about not wanting to keep beating the already DEAD horse any more on another Yoshi's thread?

[JPinAZ]

JP ... didn't you say some thing about not wanting to keep beating the already DEAD horse any more on another Yoshi's thread?

lol, I guess I believe in giving people second chances... and third chances.. and..... OK fair enough :)

[Yoshiyahu]

lol, I guess I believe in giving people second chances... and third chances.. and..... OK fair enough :)

thanks JPinAZ

[JPinAZ]

thanks JPinAZ

uh, ok... what I was getting at is maybe it's about time to stop trying to help those that don't both to help themselves (hint hint). And the 'fair enough' was in agreement to wtxs's point about beating an already dead horse.

[wtxs]

uh, ok... what I was getting at is maybe it's about time to stop trying to help those that don't both to help themselves (hint hint). And the 'fair enough' was in agreement to wtxs's point about beating an already dead horse.

Hey JP ... remember that starved and lost puppy? ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

uh, ok... what I was getting at is maybe it's about time to stop trying to help those that don't both to help themselves (hint hint). And the 'fair enough' was in agreement to wtxs's point about beating an already dead horse.

yea allow the horse to die in peace!