Chinese-Japanese Tensions Over Disputed Islands

[Empty_Cup]

http://imgur.com/a/Y7oIp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19553736

[YouKnowWho]

I still remember that I jointed in the university students protest in Washington D.C. in front of the white house back in 1971. We had 15 students from the University of Kansas at Lawrence. Our slogan was, "內除國賊,外抗強權 Remove internal traitor and resist the outside power." When asked who was the "internal traitor", we were all treated as anti-Taiwan government left wing bad guys.

[Jimbo]

I always wonder at the level of intelligence of people who riot, destroy property, always blaming "the other", etc., for the sake of nationalistic or religious fervor. Such people are very easy to manipulate, like cattle. Would most of them even know or care about these islands if it wasn't pushed in the news?

If Chinese flags and businesses were being defaced in any country in the world, for any reason, the PRC government would be complaining and threatening over it.

[Sima Rong]

Yes, this is causing a lot of tension in Asia, and could cause a lot more. I wouldn't rely only on the BBC for news on this one though, since this BBC article appears to have a pro-Japan bias and doesn't look at the history of the islands at all. Although I'm not a historian, I'd look at multiple news sources around the world to consider this issue.

[Empty_Cup]

Yes, this is causing a lot of tension in Asia, and could cause a lot more. I wouldn't rely only on the BBC for news on this one though, since this BBC article appears to have a pro-Japan bias and doesn't look at the history of the islands at all. Although I'm not a historian, I'd look at multiple news sources around the world to consider this issue.

Do you have any other news agencies you'd recommend? Preferably in English.

I normally go to BBC for my "impartial" world news source.

[David Jamieson]

In my opinion, the Chinese and the Japanese have never really resolved the issues of the Japanese occupation of China from 1931 invasion to 1945 end of WW2.

I think there are still a lot of Chinese who hold a lot of resentment towards the Japanese in general because of this persistence of memory.

The islands just seem to be the valve or the release of all the pent up hatred and distrust of the Japanese. I keep hearing about the occupation years in context to the feelings being vented due to this story.

[rett]

I want to know, are those the Islands from Enter the Dragon?

[Lucas]

Do you have any other news agencies you'd recommend? Preferably in English.

I normally go to BBC for my "impartial" world news source.

for some things a good place to try and find another source is:

http://www.aljazeera.com/

[Lucas]

here is the al jazeera cover on that story:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2012/09/2012917946448723.html

definately some powerful images

[David Jamieson]

BBC impartial?

nope.

there is no such thing as an impartial news agency. You want impartial? You gotta dig and you gotta decide from alternate viewpoints where the truth sits by your own reckoning.

Recognize that ALL news media outlets are propaganda for the system which they serve.

I would listen to Scandinavian news outlets if I wanted as close to impartial from a news agency, but those were cancelled in Canada. they had one great show called "overnight" and it was broadcast from Holland. Real news stories and different angles.

I guess our government got uncomfortable with our government propaganda station broadcasting contrary viewpoints to the night owls that would stay up to listen.

Anyway, these days, believe nothing, question everything or let your political inclinations go entirely. It's hard just to keep track of who's lying these days!

[YouKnowWho]

In my opinion, the Chinese and the Japanese have never really resolved the issues of the Japanese occupation of China from 1931 invasion to 1945 end of WW2.

The Chinese Japanese conflict started much early than that. It starts from the 甲午(Jia Wu) War.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aptPGHYcldo

[David Jamieson]

The Chinese Japanese conflict started much early than that. It starts from the 甲午(Jia Wu) War.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aptPGHYcldo


Not familiar with that. Time period?

[YouKnowWho]

That was 1894. China loss Taiwan to Japan. The movie clip that I put up was how the native Taiwanese fought against Japanese occupied soldiers. The Japanese soldiers used chemical weapon to kill Taiwanese.

All my life, I had refused to teach any Japanese students. It almost got me in trouble in my university informal class.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

甲午戰爭，日方稱為日清戰爭（日語：日清戦争／にっしんせんそう Nisshin sensō?），國際通稱第一次中日戰爭（First Sino-Japanese War），指的是大清帝國和大日本帝國之間為爭奪朝鲜半島控制權而爆发的一场戰爭。1894年（光緒二十年 ）按照中國干支紀年，時年為甲午年，故稱為甲午戰爭。丰島戰役是戰爭爆發的標誌。最終，清朝政府戰敗，與日 本簽訂《馬關條約》。

The Sino-Japanese war, war in Japan known as the Nissin (Japanese: the date the price of war/にっしんせんそう Nisshin Sens ō?), commonly known as the first Sino-Japanese war (First Sino-Japanese War), refers to the great Qing Empire and Japan between Empire, fighting for control over the outbreak of a war on the Korean peninsula. 1894 (Guangxu 20 years) according to the Chinese in Chinese era calendar, year of the Sino-Japanese war years when, it is known as the Sino-Japanese war. Battle of Pung is a sign of the outbreak of the war. Eventually, the Qing Government was defeated, and Japan signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki.

[Jimbo]

That was 1894. China loss Taiwan to Japan. The movie clip that I put up was how the native Taiwanese fought against Japanese occupied soldiers. The Japanese soldiers used chemical weapon to kill Taiwanese.

All my life, I had refused to teach any Japanese students. It almost got me in trouble in my university informal class.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

甲午戰爭，日方稱為日清戰爭（日語：日清戦争／にっしんせんそう Nisshin sensō?），國際通稱第一次中日戰爭（First Sino-Japanese War），指的是大清帝國和大日本帝國之間為爭奪朝鲜半島控制權而爆发的一场戰爭。1894年（光緒二十年 ）按照中國干支紀年，時年為甲午年，故稱為甲午戰爭。丰島戰役是戰爭爆發的標誌。最終，清朝政府戰敗，與日 本簽訂《馬關條約》。

The Sino-Japanese war, war in Japan known as the Nissin (Japanese: the date the price of war/にっしんせんそう Nisshin Sens ō?), commonly known as the first Sino-Japanese war (First Sino-Japanese War), refers to the great Qing Empire and Japan between Empire, fighting for control over the outbreak of a war on the Korean peninsula. 1894 (Guangxu 20 years) according to the Chinese in Chinese era calendar, year of the Sino-Japanese war years when, it is known as the Sino-Japanese war. Battle of Pung is a sign of the outbreak of the war. Eventually, the Qing Government was defeated, and Japan signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki.

Who you teach is your choice, but NO nation has a "clean" history. If you blame every Japanese person for what Japanese military forces did decades ago, you are blaming someone who had nothing at all to do with it. I've met some Tibetan people who hate Chinese for actions that happened in the 1950s.

[SimonM]

BBC impartial?

nope.


The BBC has a marked anti-China bias. It's as obvious as the China Daily's pro-China bias. Seriously. I used to read both and split the difference to find out what was really happening in China.

Ok, so maybe I'm using some invective... but you get my point.

Anyway, from what I can tell, the Chinese claim is slightly stronger than the Japanese claim but not by much. Basically it boils down to Chinese sources since the 1500s calling it China and Japanese sources since the 1850s calling it Japan. Oh and ONE PRC source from the 1960s which might be a forgery calls it Japan and ONE Japanese map from the 1700s calls it China.

I think in the end everybody needs to CHILL THE **** OUT and LEAVE THE **** ROCKS ALONE.

[Sima Rong]

BBC impartial?

nope.

there is no such thing as an impartial news agency. You want impartial? You gotta dig and you gotta decide from alternate viewpoints where the truth sits by your own reckoning.

Recognize that ALL news media outlets are propaganda for the system which they serve.

Anyway, these days, believe nothing, question everything or let your political inclinations go entirely. It's hard just to keep track of who's lying these days!

Yes, exactly. It's enough to make you lose your faith in humanity, like this baby:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/newborn-loses-faith-in-humanity-after-record-6-day,29588/

[David Jamieson]

Yes, exactly. It's enough to make you lose your faith in humanity, like this baby:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/newborn-loses-faith-in-humanity-after-record-6-day,29588/

Ah the onion. Keeping it fresh for quite a while now. lol

[pazman]

The Chinese claim on the islands is incredibly weak.

The only support the Chinese media can find is the fact that Chinese sailors mapped it hundreds of years ago.

Japan claimed it during its annexation of Okinawa. In fact, there were no people living there or using it before the Japanese annexation. Of course, in those days, China claimed "sovereignty" over any tribute nation.

The US actually offered China the chance to retake control of the islands at the conclusion of WW2 but China declined. Of course, China also never repaid its debts or even showed any sort of gratitude to the American volunteers who helped to fight the Japanese in China, so I don't see any reason to cut China any slack on this issue.


John Wang...that sort of attitude works well when you are back in China, but you are not there anymore.

[YouKnowWho]

John Wang...that sort of attitude works well when you are back in China, but you are not there anymore.
When Japanese bombs killed your people, where you live won't change your attitude.

[pazman]

The problem with that attitude, John, is that in order for it to be consistent within the world, you are willing to take on the hate of Vietnamese, Mongolians, Tibetans, Koreans, Turks, etc etc etc...the groups that "your people" have savagely oppressed and disgraced in the past. You can see how futile that attitude becomes.

[bawang]

I always wonder at the level of intelligence of people who riot, destroy property, always blaming "the other", etc., for the sake of nationalistic or religious fervor. Such people are very easy to manipulate, like cattle. Would most of them even know or care about these islands if it wasn't pushed in the news?

If Chinese flags and businesses were being defaced in any country in the world, for any reason, the PRC government would be complaining and threatening over it.

the prc has a;ways redirected chinese peoples anger at itself to japan, using it as a scapegoat.

[RenDaHai]

Yeah, the Chinese really hate the Japanese.

The Japanese did some nasty things to the Chinese but the Chinese did worse to themselves and more recently.

Upper estimates of 10M Unnatural Chinese deaths caused by the Japanese. But upper estimates of 80M Unnatural Chinese deaths caused by the policies of MaoZiDong.

After hearing stories from the Japanese occupation while in China, I can fully understand why the Chinese hate the Japanese... Its rather logical. But I think a lot of those memories should have been overshadowed by the memories of the more recent and equally atrocious cultural revolution. I think the Chinese government kind of keeps this Japanese Hate going as a way of redirecting the anger the Chinese must feel for themselves.

When you turn on the TV in China there is always showing a program which is a period drama of WWII and the japanese being horrible to the Chinese. When all the Chinese grow up only seeing the Japanese this way it is easy to see how the Hate is cultivated.

[bawang]

When you turn on the TV in China there is always showing a program which is a period drama of WWII and the japanese being horrible to the Chinese. When all the Chinese grow up only seeing the Japanese this way it is easy to see how the Hate is cultivated.

the first thing the chinese see today with anger is not the evil japanese on tv, but the rich children of the communist party around them living in debauchery.

[ShaolinDan]

Yesterday there were government organized anti-Japanese demonstrations throughout China. Here are some photos from Kunming (The soldiers are riot prevention, many foreign businesses were also forced to close for the day--more riot prevention. Fortunately for me, the Chinese newspapers have not been mentioning that the U.S. is supporting Japan on this one.) :

[bawang]

i think prc is testing the waters to see how much they can excise their newfound international power.

[David Jamieson]

I personally am questioning the intellectual capacity and capability of both those countries leaders.

We are talking about a few uninhabited rocks sticking out of the ocean after all.
Resources speculated to be below can be shared.

seriously, what the hell is wrong with these guys?

Seems like it may be as bawang says, China trying to flex itself and focusing on it's hated rival to do so. It is very childish and because that childish vitriol has access to extreme weapon, I would say it is reckless as well.

[bawang]

I personally am questioning the intellectual capacity and capability of both those countries leaders.

We are talking about a few uninhabited rocks sticking out of the ocean after all.
Resources speculated to be below can be shared.

seriously, what the hell is wrong with these guys?

Seems like it may be as bawang says, China trying to flex itself and focusing on it's hated rival to do so. It is very childish and because that childish vitriol has access to extreme weapon, I would say it is reckless as well.

i think its a pretty safe way to test international attitude and reactions , since like you said, its just some rocks.

whats dangerous is trying to rouse the mob.

[David Jamieson]

i think its a pretty safe way to test international attitude and reactions , since like you said, its just some rocks.

whats dangerous is trying to rouse the mob.

Agreed. Political leaders aren't the brightest lot.
If they had read The life of Julius Caesar they would clearly see the error in arousing the mob.
The mob rules, not them. Not a king, not an emperor not a politburo leader.

Don't wake the mob. You will regret it every single time.

[SimonM]

The Chinese claim on the islands is incredibly weak.

The only support the Chinese media can find is the fact that Chinese sailors mapped it hundreds of years ago.

Japan claimed it during its annexation of Okinawa. In fact, there were no people living there or using it before the Japanese annexation. Of course, in those days, China claimed "sovereignty" over any tribute nation.

Prior to the 1800s the name of the island cluster in both China and Japan translated as "catch fish." (In fact it's still called that in China.)

Prior to the discovery of oil these islets were just a fishin' hole that couldn't really support anybody living there. And frankly the Chinese maps claimed that it was a chinese fishin' hole and, excepting one, the Japanese maps claimed it was a Japanese fishin' hole.

The Chinese maps are older which gives them a tenuously better claim. From my review of the literature I see no mention of the USA offering Diaoyu to China at the end of WWII. What I see is the US unilaterally making decisions on behalf of themselves, the UK and China over the terms of the Potsdam declaration. No surprise, the USA used Chinese internal conflict and British disinterest to control pretty much all the little rocks in the Pacific region that they took from Japan.

Doesn't mean they had a legal basis to do that though.

Again, ultimately, I think both claims are tenuous at best. The Chinese claim is "we had it first." The Japanese claim is "yeah but we took it from you fair and square in the 1800s by beating you in a war."

Neither is compelling evidence. Not every piece of land needs an owner. If both sides would just leave it alone things would be better.

[RickMatz]

The only sensible way to solve this is a game of go.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Japanese expansionism. All over again.

[GeneChing]

More like Clark Kent.

Jackie Chan wants to be "Superman" in Sino-Japanese spat (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/entertainment/view/1229152/1/.html)
Posted: 02 October 2012 1709 hrs
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/components/display_image.php?id=495070
"Chinese Zodiac" stars at Cannes (from left): Yao Xingtong, Jackie Chan, Laura Weissbecker and Kwon Sang Woo. (AFP PHOTO / ANNE-CHRISTINE POUJOULAT)

TAITUNG COUNTY, Taiwan: Hong Kong screen icon Jackie Chan has weighed in on the Sino-Japanese territorial dispute over a group of islands in the East China Sea known as the Diaoyu Islands in China and Senkaku Islands in Japan, reported Taiwan media.

"The Diaoyu Islands definitely belong to China!" said Chan on Monday, during an event in Taiwan's Taitung County, where he had shot scenes for his new movie "Chinese Zodiac".

"The Diaoyu Islands belong to China, but what I say doesn't count, it is up to the government to deal with it; I wish I am Superman, so I can pull the island closer," Chan added.

When asked whether he would consider shooting a film on one of the disputed islands, Chan said he would not, explaining that it was just "too sensitive" and would require a lot of effort for very little reward.

Chan also said he hoped Russia would resolve its territorial disputes with both China and Japan, pointing out that there is a need "to respect every country's culture, and for everyone to live harmoniously together".

The 58-year-old actor is not the first Asian celebrity to express his views on the Sino-Japanese spat, which had sparked protests across China in recent weeks, but he may well be the most famous.

Chan has appeared in over 250 films so far and is one of the very few Asian actors to have made a name for himself in Hollywood, on the back of movies like "Rush Hour", "Shanghai Knights" as well as a 2010 remake of "The Karate Kid".

[Syn7]

This seems to be more about the Japanese occupations than about some island that has prolly been fished to extinction anyways. Chinese seem to get really riled up over this. In Japan, they laugh. Yall need to patch that sh1t up real quick. Another real fight between the two would be devastating for all involved. It would drag everybody in.

Last thing we need is one big war surrounded by hundreds of proxy wars.