Benefits of Horse Stance Training [Archive]

Lucas

09-17-2012, 12:33 PM

Found this list randomly and thought it would be nice to share. Now you can see why kung fu people always be having the sexy bodies and young looks. :D

Horse stance training is strenuous and it takes time to develop the ability to stay in a horse stance for long periods of time. It requires dedication and perseverance on the part of the student to achieve a good horse stance. Nowadays most teachers are more relaxed and don’t require the same standards from their students, allowing them to quickly go on to learning other skills. This is understandable as most students do not have as much time to train now as they might have in years gone by, however by skimping on horse stance training there a many benefits which are missed. Below is a summary of just a few of them (there are more, but 10 sounded like a good number for a list). Even just a few minutes a day spent on horse stance training will go a long way towards helping you obtain these benefits.

1. Improved posture

In the horse stance you weight is distributed evenly on both feet, you learn not to lean either to the left or right, forwards or backwards (this is quite difficult to begin with). Over time this allows all the muscles of the upper body to balance out and relax. Shoulders will be less hunched up and the body will not slouch). People with better posture are considered to be more attractive and having a balanced posture will mean that muscles are less prone to the aches and pains that come from overuse.

2. Better balance

Developing the strength of your legs in this low upright posture improves balance remarkably. This means you are less likely to fall over and hurt yourself, and for martial artists it is harder for someone else to knock you over.

3. Faster on your feet

Improved posture and balance mean that you are able to transfer your weight more easily and quickly. You will be able to move your feet more quickly and with more grace.

4. Tone pelvic floor

The tucked under position of the pelvis in the horse stance means that load is placed on the muscle of the pelvic floor, causing the muscles to contract and increase in tone and strength. This helps to remedy issues such as poor bladder control and also contributes to the health of the prostate gland in males, leading to increased sexual vitality.

5. Strengthens the transverses abdominus muscle

The transverses abdominus (TVA) muscle is the deepest layer of abdominal muscle. It is the layer that holds the abdominal organs in place and determines whether your tummy sticks out or remains flat. In the horse stance the load of the body sits down through the centre of the body in front of the spine. In order for the body to remain upright the TVA must contract to support this postion. This leads to a flatter stomach.

6. Stronger more relaxed back

With the TVA muscle more toned and holding the abdominal organs in, the spinal column is supported from the front. This allows the muscle of the back, particularly the lower back to relax and become stronger. This will lead to a more upright posture and a stronger back. This in turn will make your back less prone to injury and may help to relieve aches and pains that have developed through poor posture, tension and weakness. For the martial artist this will also allow stronger and faster punches and kicks.

7. Strengthen Kidney energy

When the lower back muscles relax this takes pressure off the kidneys and the nerves that supply them. This allows the kidneys to function more effectively and strengthens the whole kidney energy system which is also responsible for the strength of the spine and hormonal functions in the body (see numbers 6 and 8).

8. Improved hormonal function

This posture strengthens the entire hormonal system including the sexual organs, adrenals, and thyroid. This leads to more energy, healthier hair, skin and nails and generally a more vital and resilient body.

9. Develop Yang energy

The strenuous nature of the maintaining a low horse stance develops the yang energy in the body. This will help you to be more assertive, more energetic, stay warmer etc.

10. Finally, with enough practice… you’ll never have to worry about finding a seat again!

Raipizo

09-17-2012, 08:39 PM

Anymore to list? I do horse stance about 5 minutes a day, for my iron leg training. I'll get to doing more eventually though.

Sima Rong

09-17-2012, 09:17 PM

Cool, I didn't think about all of those benefits. :)

Does it improve your ability to kill your enemies from horseback?

IronFist

09-18-2012, 12:14 PM

Realistic benefits of horse stance training

1. Improves will, focus, determination, and mental toughness

Holding a horse stance for long periods of time sucks and takes mental effort to do it.

2. Provides a slight increase in muscular strength, in the beginning

Holding a horse stance will provide stimulation to your leg muscles in a certain position. Because of how muscular adaptation works, in the beginning you will become slightly stronger in this position (and possible +/- 15 degrees from that position). This is especially true for noobs who have done no exercising prior to beginning horse stance training. However the strength gains end quickly. For example, a noob going from no horse stance to a 3 minute horse stance will also result in a strength gain in the legs. However, increasing from a 5 minute horse stance to a 10 minute horse stance will not cause an increase in strength, nor will an increase from 10 minutes to an hour or whatever else the cool kids are doing these days.

3. Increases the amount of time you can hold a horse stance

If being able to hold a horse stance for long periods of time is important to you, then you should train horse stance.

I can't really think of any situations (outside of a kung fu class or competition) where the reason for someone failing at something was a result of not being able to hold a horse stance longer.

Is it important for kung fu? Absolutely.

Is it important for anything else? Not really.

I bet if you took world class Olympic lifters, sprinters, marathoners, boxers, UFC fighters, American football players, and baseball players, less than 5% of them could hold a horse stance for more than 5 minutes.

However, none of their performances would be improved even if they trained to hold a horse stance for 15+ minutes.

Horse stance is a bit like holding a pushup position at the bottom of the motion for time. You can do it, but why?

Outside of building mental toughness and being traditional, it doesn't really have a purpose past a few minutes.

But if you enjoy it, by all means, keep doing it. I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong or that they shouldn't do it, only to provide people with information so that they can tailor their training to their goals.

bawang

09-18-2012, 03:06 PM

the main purpose of horse stance in modern kung fu is brainwashing, making your students tired and in pain so they will be more susceptible to your messages.

Lucas

09-18-2012, 03:13 PM

horse stance is good punishment

Neeros

09-18-2012, 07:24 PM

Horse stance, and all zhan zhuang is very enjoyable and refreshing if you relax mentally and physically.

I was taught that you get maximum benefits if you follow the three golden rules of stance training.

Relax
Relax
Relax

:D

Oso

09-19-2012, 01:22 AM

when i wrote the curriculum for my school i capped stance training at a total of 16 minutes for 'black sash' level: 8 stances, 1 minute each side (arm postures diff for horse) 16 total minutes.

for white sash, a student had to hit each posture in the progression for a beat...5 seconds at yellow...don't remember the rest of the progression in time but ending in the above

David Jamieson

09-25-2012, 08:44 AM

IronFist

09-25-2012, 01:29 PM

Horse stance develops your Hip Flexors.
If you don't think that helps your kicking, you likely don't know much about the human body.

dang it you guys, try and educate yourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_flexors

will power development? ssshhhheeeiit man, just stay away from the ice cream and beer you fat slob. lol
:p

From the link you posted:

In human anatomy, the hip flexors are a group of skeletal muscles that act to flex the femur (thigh bone) onto the lumbo-pelvic complex, i.e., pull the knee upward.

That's the opposite of what is going on in horse stance. The hip flexors pull the knee upward against force. In horse stance, your muscles are actively resisting the knee being pulled upward (eg. you releasing tension in your quads and falling onto the ground). The hip flexors are antagonistic in squatting/horse stance/etc.

The only way horse stance is using your hip flexors is if there's a rubber band around your butt that is connected to the ceiling that is pulling you upward and you're using your hip flexors to pull your hips down.

You're right that hip flexors are involved in kicks, though. It's how you lift your leg to kick. But horse stance training doesn't use them. And even if it did, holding a static muscular contraction for time doesn't really increase power as explained in post 4.

David Jamieson

09-25-2012, 01:41 PM

From the link you posted:

That's the opposite of what is going on in horse stance. The hip flexors pull the knee upward against force. In horse stance, your muscles are actively resisting the knee being pulled upward (eg. you releasing tension in your quads and falling onto the ground). The hip flexors are antagonistic in squatting/horse stance/etc.

The only way horse stance is using your hip flexors is if there's a rubber band around your butt that is connected to the ceiling that is pulling you upward and you're using your hip flexors to pull your hips down.

You're right that hip flexors are involved in kicks, though. It's how you lift your leg to kick. But horse stance training doesn't use them. And even if it did, holding a static muscular contraction for time doesn't really increase power as explained in post 4.

So...resistance training is useless? Is that what you're saying?

IronFist

09-25-2012, 09:01 PM

So...resistance training is useless? Is that what you're saying?

That was the conclusion you drew from that? :confused:

Horse stance training is useless, as far as athletic performance is concerned, except for the specific things mentioned in post 4.

YouKnowWho

09-25-2012, 09:16 PM

If you wrestle for 15 rounds and each round has no time limit (sometime a round can last for an hour), you will feel the importance of your horse stance. In wrestling, you always keep both of your legs bend.

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/8762/scposture.jpg

If you can't move smoothly in that leg bending posture, your legs will feel tired. The moment that you straight your leg, the moment that your center of gravity will raise, the moment that your opponent will attack.

David Jamieson

09-26-2012, 05:27 AM

That was the conclusion you drew from that? :confused:

Horse stance training is useless, as far as athletic performance is concerned, except for the specific things mentioned in post 4.

Do you even do a horse stance at all? It totally develops quads, hip flexors and the posterior chain.

Are you a kinesiologist? Or are you making assumptions and guessing according to your own frame of reference?

You also go on to say holding a push up is useless? Honestly? ths is called Chataranga in Yoga. It is a form of isotonic and isometric resistance?

I disagree with your position here. I don't think you train this or fully understand it enough to make attempts at diminishing the training.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 05:56 AM

The law of Specificity states that the more you do an activity, the better you get at doing that activity.
While there may be some carryover to other activities, that carryover will not be as much as any direct training of they other activity.
Horse stance does indeed strength your legs and hips, and even your core.
The more you do a horse stance, the better you get at doing a horse stance.
The Time under load of a horse stance will build muscle endurance BUT not any "pure strength" BUT your legs and hips will get stronger of course.

Will doing a horse stance for 30 min make your legs stronger? Yes.
Will it make them stronger than doings squats with progressive resistance for example? No.
The ability to hold ANY static position is a combination of muscle endurance AND correct structure.
Holding a horse stance for 30 min will not enable you to hold a crane stance for 30 min or even a front (bow) stance for 30 min, the muscles involved and structures are different.

Are there benefits from doing horse stance training? Of course.
Do they carry over to every day activities? Yes, to a certain extent.
Does doing a horse stance make you a better fighter or MA? of course not.
Does horse stance training serve a purpose in MA training? Yes, just nothing directly related to fighting.

Frost

09-26-2012, 06:32 AM

That was the conclusion you drew from that? :confused:

Horse stance training is useless, as far as athletic performance is concerned, except for the specific things mentioned in post 4.
Forget it you are banging your head against a brick wall lol

you have got to love these technical discussions with people like who cant stand being told something different to what they believe and who dont have any real knowledge of the subject lol

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 07:26 AM

That was the conclusion you drew from that? :confused:

Horse stance training is useless, as far as athletic performance is concerned, except for the specific things mentioned in post 4.

Stance training has benefits. People who have held stances for time and made increases over several months usually realize how weak their legs were before they started training.

Besides...it helped my skiing.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 07:36 AM

Stance training has benefits. People who have held stances for time and made increases over several months usually realize how weak their legs were before they started training.

Besides...it helped my skiing.

Typically yes, but there is a disclaimer for this and that is, again, specificity.
Unless one has been training something like a horse stance, he/she will ALWAYS be weaker doing it than someone that has.
Weak legs in hose stance compared to someone that does hose stance all the time, is, well, irrelevant other than for doing a horse stance.
I don't do much horse stance training anymore, but when I do it I hold if for 10 min and I am sure there are guys that can hold it for far more.
But we do need to compare apples with apples and here is an example:
A guy that can squat 400lbs will probably not be able to hold a horse stance very long if he has never trained to do it compared to a guy that doe sit all that time, BUT does that mean his legs are weak?
A 400lbs squat means NO, his legs are most certainly NOT weak.
I ask you this, how many guys do you know that can hold a 20 min HS? and how much can they squat?

It is not a case of one being better than the other, just that training a specific posture and being able to hold it, doesn't mean much OUTSIDE doing just that.

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 07:45 AM

Typically yes, but there is a disclaimer for this and that is, again, specificity.
Unless one has been training something like a horse stance, he/she will ALWAYS be weaker doing it than someone that has.
Weak legs in hose stance compared to someone that does hose stance all the time, is, well, irrelevant other than for doing a horse stance.
I don't do much horse stance training anymore, but when I do it I hold if for 10 min and I am sure there are guys that can hold it for far more.
But we do need to compare apples with apples and here is an example:
A guy that can squat 400lbs will probably not be able to hold a horse stance very long if he has never trained to do it compared to a guy that doe sit all that time, BUT does that mean his legs are weak?
A 400lbs squat means NO, his legs are most certainly NOT weak.
I ask you this, how many guys do you know that can hold a 20 min HS? and how much can they squat?

It is not a case of one being better than the other, just that training a specific posture and being able to hold it, doesn't mean much OUTSIDE doing just that.

Agreed.

I think that you are correct regarding the specificity, however I think horse stance training carries over to OTHER stance training more that you implied with your previous post, since they are very similar.

I was wrestling during my beginning stance training years and noticed an improvement in my leg strength/endurance, so i found it helpful for 'fighting' or, rather, competing in my case.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 08:00 AM

Do you even do a horse stance at all? It totally develops quads, hip flexors and the posterior chain.

Horse stance works the hip flexors about as much as barbell curls work the triceps.

Are you a kinesiologist? Or are you making assumptions and guessing according to your own frame of reference?

Whether I'm a kinesiologist or not has no bearing on the correctness of what I say. You were disproven by your own wikipedia link.

You also go on to say holding a push up is useless? Honestly? ths is called Chataranga in Yoga. It is a form of isotonic and isometric resistance?

How does it existing in yoga have anything to do with this discussion? Holding a static pushup is useless as far as MA is concerned and as far as strength development is concerned.

I disagree with your position here. I don't think you train this or fully understand it enough to make attempts at diminishing the training.

Then use science to disprove what I said in post 4 rather than just posting what you think. FWIW, I also used to train horse stance daily years and years ago. I thought it was giving me all these benefits, but really all it was doing was letting me hold horse stance longer.

Horse stance training will make you better at horse stance training. The carryover into maximal strength is minimal (as described in post 4). The carryover into endurance is minimal. Once you get past holding horse stance for a certain point (most likely a minute or two), the only benefit you continue to gain is the ability to hold a horse stance longer (and I will agree that there are some mental toughness benefits that come with it).

To the person who said it improved their skiing, I can see that happening because your skiing posture is probably within +/- 15 degrees or so of horse stance posture and the ability to hold it longer may have some carryover into your skiing stability.

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 08:02 AM

Stance training isn't that bad, especially in the beginning. The key is to be consistency and perseverence.

We did 16 stances (some repeating) consecutively. every day, or every other day.

at first 15 seconds each = 4 minutes total

add a few seconds every week or so for a month.

15 stances ay 30 sec = 8 mins.

Eventually 1 minute each = 16 minutes .

We were also encouraged to jyst stand in a horse stance if you're at home, working on homework, at the dinner table, or some activity where you are static for 20-30 minutes.

The longest that I have ever held one was 45 minutes during a lecture in class. But by that point in my training, I could have held it much longer....but that's about the maximum benefit that you should expect from stance training.

Strong, stable legs for as long as I need them. Sort of the end point for stance training.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 08:06 AM

Stance training has benefits. People who have held stances for time and made increases over several months usually realize how weak their legs were before they started training.

If "weak" is defined as "the inability to hold a horse stance for a long period of time," then sure.

But past the first minute or two they didn't get stronger, all they got was more endurance when it comes to holding horse stance.

Not cardiovascular endurance, just muscular endurance at that particular angle.

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 08:08 AM

Once you get past holding horse stance for a certain point (most likely a minute or two), the only benefit you continue to gain is the ability to hold a horse stance longer (and I will agree that there are some mental toughness benefits that come with it)..

The mental toughness from a horse stance is minimal, as the stance is relatively high. The real willpower comes from holding the 'thighs parallel' stances. You bite holes in your tongue just to take your mind off of the pain and burning in your legs.

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 08:14 AM

If "weak" is defined as "the inability to hold a horse stance for a long period of time," then sure.

But past the first minute or two they didn't get stronger, all they got was more endurance when it comes to holding horse stance.

Not cardiovascular endurance, just muscular endurance at that particular angle.

Yep, but that kind of endurance is valuable in a fight/competition.

Frost

09-26-2012, 08:55 AM

Yep, but that kind of endurance is valuable in a fight/competition.

only if you are holding that angle for a period of time, and unless you fight out of a horse stance you wont be so why bother?
as a strength building exercise its next to worthless unless you are weak as a kitten to begin with
as an endurance exercise again its next to worthless,
as a flexibility exercise its next to..well you get it
Now as a way to fill the time in a class and weed out people it has merit

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 09:06 AM

only if you are holding that angle for a period of time, and unless you fight out of a horse stance you wont be so why bother?

Fighting, wrestling etc...is conducted from a bent legged posture. So while you are fighting, you are 'holding that angle for a period of time'.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 09:28 AM

Fighting, wrestling etc...is conducted from a bent legged posture. So while you are fighting, you are 'holding that angle for a period of time'.

Well, outside of AMA, you won't find much static stance training.
You don't find it in boxing or in wrestling for example.
And even in AMA, you don't find it that much either.
You don't find it in the grappling arts and while you find it in some striking systems, it is usually done as part of the basics routine while throwing technqiues ( examples being in Karate and TKD when students hold the horse stance while punching and blocking in the air).
Holding a stances in a static way just for the sake of holding it is generally found in TCMA.

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 09:40 AM

Well, outside of AMA, you won't find much static stance training.
You don't find it in boxing or in wrestling for example.
And even in AMA, you don't find it that much either.
You don't find it in the grappling arts and while you find it in some striking systems, it is usually done as part of the basics routine while throwing technqiues ( examples being in Karate and TKD when students hold the horse stance while punching and blocking in the air).
Holding a stances in a static way just for the sake of holding it is generally found in TCMA.

We used to do 'wall squats' in wrestling practice.

That was a static position, with the thighs parallel, and the back flat up against the wall.

We held it for one minute. Everyone hated it except for the three of us who had ma training. lol

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 09:42 AM

There are some ignorant, stupid, and uneducated people here. Unreal.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 09:49 AM

We used to do 'wall squats' in wrestling practice.

That was a static position, with the thighs parallel, and the back flat up against the wall.

We held it for one minute. Everyone hated it except for the three of us who had ma training. lol

One legged wall squats are awesome !
Good times.
Never did them in my time in wrestling, static bridges yes, but not any static stances.

Lucas

09-26-2012, 09:51 AM

horse stance is great for mounted archery!!!

Lucas

09-26-2012, 09:56 AM

Oh and John Wang makes a good point for prolonged wrestling matches.

bawang

09-26-2012, 09:58 AM

ginosifu

09-26-2012, 10:10 AM

Lucas

09-26-2012, 10:14 AM

Bacon

09-26-2012, 10:55 AM

It is also important to note that horse stance training is not limited to only static stance holding. This is a misconception by many people, perpetuated by those same people who do not know there are many variations of stance training.

Do people actually believe that the squat is a new invention, and that it is not a part of horse stance training and stance training in general?? :rolleyes:

Nope, and people have been aware of the benefits of progressive resistance training for a long time. The current way of doing squats with weight is simply an improvement.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 11:00 AM

It is also important to note that horse stance training is not limited to only static stance holding. This is a misconception by many people, perpetuated by those same people who do not know there are many variations of stance training.

Do people actually believe that the squat is a new invention, and that it is not a part of horse stance training and stance training in general?? :rolleyes:

Very true, YET the vast majority of posts in this thread and, lets be honest, the majority of horse stance training is static.

David Jamieson

09-26-2012, 11:04 AM

Sorry Ironfist, but YOU are going to have to provide the science.
lol

I think that your attempt to diminish teh value of this training is weird.

as said, you do wall squats? why? what's the point of those, they just make your wall squat better.

Of course you get better at it if you practice, that applies to EVERYTHING.
Of course it works your will because it is difficult and muscles are being worked.
Yes it develops strength early on and maintains it throughout your training.

Seriously, sometimes you talk out of your ass in favour of dang semantics. It's ridicuous.

Bottom line is you will improve balance, strength and rooting and it will work your posterior chain including your hip flexors the same was as squats work em. You don't think you go up and down in horse?

You young bucks always so quick to try to get people to turn away from stuff you don't do. YOu get critical about things you have really no place criticizing. Why not try it for a year, come back and tell us what you know about sei ping dai ma after that?

IronFist

09-26-2012, 11:54 AM

Yep, but that kind of endurance is valuable in a fight/competition.

Disagree. No one uses a horse stance in fighting for more than a brief moment maybe ducking under a punch or rising from the ground, etc.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 12:01 PM

IronFist and all whom do not believe that Horse (or any static stance training) stance has value in MA:

You guys are only thinking with horse blinders on. You can only see straight ahead and what your modern science can prove. You need to step back and take your blinders off.

Horse stance gives basic leg strength. For you modern guys, if you want more.... do squats, sit on a leg press / bench etc etc.

Quantify "basic leg strength." What is it?

I already explained the "strength" you get from it in post 4.

Horse stance provides some flexibilty. Again if you want more.... do other stretches.

What? No it doesn't.

Horse stance does provide some balance and more important ROOTING. Rooting is the ability to sink and lower your weight mass. Horse stance practice allows you to learn how to relax while stress in on your legs, thus allowing blood and body fluids to sink.

Rooting is nonsense. "Allowing blood and body fluids to sink?" They're only sinking because you're lowering yourself and they're physically getting lower as a result. In real life, when your blood and body fluids sink, it's a medical emergency and you have to go to the hospital.

Horse stance builds good mental focus... However it was used to weed out people with bad character. Only those individuals who persisted with Horse stance were taken in as Todai or students. Those who had the guts, stubborness, and mental fortitude would go on to learn.

Sure, I'll agree it builds mental focus.

Hundreds of years ago while practicing.... there some people who did not have weights (other than some rocks or stone locks) to use, so kung fu teachers used static stances and Dynamic or isometric tensions to help build strength.

Absolutely. Something is better than nothing. Doing horse stance is better leg training than doing nothing.

I suspect hundreds of years ago they also did weightless body squats (sometimes called "Hindu squats"), but for some reason those got dropped out of popular kung fu training.

btw, Hindu squats are much more applicable to fighting than horse stance.

Horse stance also teaches a type of structural postioning for certain techniques.

I suppose, but you never use those techniques in an actual fight so it really doesn't matter.

This is not to say that we as a modern society do not have other methods to build strength, however too many of you meatheads replace important kung fu drills with weight lifting. Getting stronger is good but not at the expense of skill and technique.

Nonense. The only way you get stronger "at the expense of skill and technique" is if you stop practicing skill and technique.

Remember that Horse stance training is just like running or push ups or hitting the heavy bags. They are all supplimental training and are second to solo and 2 person drills and sparring.

Right. It's just that horse stance isn't really a very good supplemental training method because, as stated in post 4, its only real benefit (past the first minute or two) is being able to hold a horse stance for longer.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 12:18 PM

Sorry Ironfist, but YOU are going to have to provide the science.
lol

I already did, in post 4.

I think that your attempt to diminish teh value of this training is weird.

as said, you do wall squats? why? what's the point of those, they just make your wall squat better.

I never said I do wall squats. Wall squats are just about as useless as horse stance. The only difference is wrestlers don't look at wall squatting as if it were the holy grail of fitness.

Of course you get better at it if you practice, that applies to EVERYTHING.
Of course it works your will because it is difficult and muscles are being worked.
Yes it develops strength early on and maintains it throughout your training.

Seriously, sometimes you talk out of your ass in favour of dang semantics. It's ridicuous.

Bottom line is you will improve balance, strength and rooting and it will work your posterior chain including your hip flexors the same was as squats work em. You don't think you go up and down in horse?

You young bucks always so quick to try to get people to turn away from stuff you don't do. YOu get critical about things you have really no place criticizing. Why not try it for a year, come back and tell us what you know about sei ping dai ma after that?

How does it improve balance?

Strength? Only as explained in post 4.

Rooting is nonsense as explained in the previous post.

Who's turning anyone away? As stated, I trained horse stance daily years ago. I finally realized I was wasting my time, though, because it wasn't taking me to where I wanted to go.

If your goal is to do TCMA techniques, or be able to hold a horse stance for a long time, then by all means, train horse stance.

If your goal is to kick harder, be stronger, or have more endurance for fighting, horse stance is not going to get you there (past the first minute or two of holding it).

I know this is sacrilege to some of you guys. Not trying to offend.

I did Iron Body and Stone Warrior every day a little over a decade ago. I was so hardcore about it and would tell people how weightlifting was bad and made you slow and all the other TMA crap I had been fed. I also thought MMA was stupid and grappling could be defeated with knees and iron palm strikes to the head.

A day in my university's gym set me on the path that would eventually clear up my strength training misconceptions.

30 seconds of sparring at an MMA gym cleared up my misconceptions about TCMA, grappling, and resisting opponents (but that's another topic for another thread).

But if all you've ever been told is the same old TCMA nonsense from your sifu for years, those beliefs can be pretty ingrained. Fortunately for me, I'm pretty scientific-minded and was able to get the blinders off pretty quickly.

If what you're doing is working for you, then keep doing it. My goal was to get stronger, to hit harder, and to have more endurance for fighting. Horse stance training was not meeting my needs, and with all the stuff I was doing I was doing it for 30+ minutes per day. I could hold it for a long time, but I wasn't strong.

At best, I was marginally stronger than someone my size who didn't work out, but that was that. I weighed like 150 and could bench press 115 for a rep or two and could squat 95 pounds for a rep or two, after years of horse stance nonsense, dynamic tension sets (which at the time I believed were the bees knees, secret strength training from the ancients, all that type of stuff), pushups, etc. Indeed, I wasn't very strong.

I got stronger in my first month of weight training than I was from years of doing all the other stuff.

Sure, I've lost the ability to hold a horse stance for a while, but I don't care, because that was never useful in the first place. I don't fight from a horse stance. I don't do anything from a horse stance. Static contractions for time don't make you stronger. It's pointless after a minute or so for the reasons explained in post 4.

I have used it from time to time just to break up the monotony, or as part of rehab, or if I'm traveling and don't have access to a gym and am bored and think "I wonder if I can hold a horse stance for 90 seconds still," but that's about it.

I know I'm wasting my breath, but this was a fun post to type regardless.

Lucas

09-26-2012, 12:49 PM

Very true, YET the vast majority of posts in this thread and, lets be honest, the majority of horse stance training is static.

That is true, but i do disagree about most horse training being static. let me elaborate. When I first started cma my sifu would have us hold horse for sure, starting small then increasing time as is usual for many cma. Keep in mind my sifu was also raised/trained in a temple invironment, where horse is used for many reasons. During our 'testing' depending on time in you would be required to hold horse for 30-45 minutes, and reach your max (or close to max) sit ups and push ups before doing your forms and techniques, fighting was last when you were exhausted against people there soley for the sparring who were completely fresh. holding a horse for that long does exhaust your legs, especially if you dont do that time frame regularly, which honestly i never did even though i could reach those limits my legs were shot. So doing all your form and technique, after crapping out your legs and then after all of that sparring fresh people back to back, is a valuable lesson in itself as to how to fight when you have absolutely nothing left. Its pure will to continue at that point. Can you get exhausted another way? sure. I experienced the same thing in judo without the horse stance training. In judo we hold a wide sumo style horse stance for a few minutes but thats all.

but we also did several different types of squats. Regular squats, jumping squats, horse jumping (you get in horse and hop forward and up as best you can without leaving the horse position) and we would also work our way up to one leg squats.

I am one of those people that view the whole thing as horse stance training. static, dynamic, squats, jumping, etc. its all horse stance training. While i do not fight from a low horse stance, there are indeed times that i have used a horse stance during fighting, especially in judo, over and over again. Do i view horse stance as some super duper mystical 'holy grail' as it was put, no lol. I dont live in extremes, I'm a pretty balanced person in many ways, I dont see it as the end all, or even that special other than all the variations of it that are used constantly, but I dont out right dismiss it.

Every wrestler does 'horse stance training' whether they like it or not. Most dont do static training but all do squats. what do you think the action of a squat is. Dont get caught up in a name guys....a squat is just a dynamic use of the 'horse stance' call it what you want, i call it horse, and i can if i want, because it is. most people just hear the name horse and start frothing at the mouth because they cant get past an attachment they have created for themselves.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 12:52 PM

Somewhere along the lines this became an either/or thing when it really isn't.
Even in the olden days ( LOL) fighters did Both static stance training and dynamic and also did progressive resistance training.
There was no reason to choose one over the other since they both ( stance specific training and resistance training) were valuable.

We've all done stance training, you can't go through MA without doing it and those that have also done progressive resistance training KNOW that you can't compare the two but guess what? you don't have to nor should you, BOTH have their benefits.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 12:57 PM

That is true, but i do disagree about most horse training being static. let me elaborate. When I first started cma my sifu would have us hold horse for sure, starting small then increasing time as is usual for many cma. Keep in mind my sifu was also raised/trained in a temple invironment, where horse is used for many reasons. During our 'testing' depending on time in you would be required to hold horse for 30-45 minutes, and reach your max (or close to max) sit ups and push ups before doing your forms and techniques, fighting was last when you were exhausted against people there soley for the sparring who were completely fresh. holding a horse for that long does exhaust your legs, especially if you dont do that time frame regularly, which honestly i never did even though i could reach those limits my legs were shot. So doing all your form and technique, after crapping out your legs and then after all of that sparring fresh people back to back, is a valuable lesson in itself as to how to fight when you have absolutely nothing left. Its pure will to continue at that point. Can you get exhausted another way? sure. I experienced the same thing in judo without the horse stance training. In judo we hold a wide sumo style horse stance for a few minutes but thats all.

but we also did several different types of squats. Regular squats, jumping squats, horse jumping (you get in horse and hop forward and up as best you can without leaving the horse position) and we would also work our way up to one leg squats.

I am one of those people that view the whole thing as horse stance training. static, dynamic, squats, jumping, etc. its all horse stance training. While i do not fight from a low horse stance, there are indeed times that i have used a horse stance during fighting, especially in judo, over and over again. Do i view horse stance as some super duper mystical 'holy grail' as it was put, no lol. I dont live in extremes, I'm a pretty balanced person in many ways, I dont see it as the end all, or even that special other than all the variations of it that are used constantly, but I dont out right dismiss it.

Every wrestler does 'horse stance training' whether they like it or not. Most dont do static training but all do squats. what do you think the action of a squat is. Dont get caught up in a name guys....a squat is just a dynamic use of the 'horse stance' call it what you want, i call it horse, and i can if i want, because it is. most people just hear the name horse and start frothing at the mouth because they cant get past an attachment they have created for themselves.

Of course, YET, and you know this is true, when people think and talk about horse stance training they think STATIC ie: holding the horse stance.
You don't hear people asking, within the context of horse stance training, how many BW squats you can do but how long you can hold your horse stance.

Lucas

09-26-2012, 01:02 PM

Of course, YET, and you know this is true, when people think and talk about horse stance training they think STATIC ie: holding the horse stance.
You don't hear people asking, within the context of horse stance training, how many BW squats you can do but how long you can hold your horse stance.

lol i know you're right.... :mad:

its frustrating...the first thing i will tell someone when asked 'what can i do to get a better horse stance?' i tell them squats. you know, besides getting to the point that you can also do a proper horse stance. but squats help with that tremendously

ginosifu

09-26-2012, 01:05 PM

IronFist:

Quantify "basic leg strength." What is it?
#1. Basic leg strength is just as I stated..... basic. Like I said if you want to do more or go beyond this... do squats or leg press etc....

What? No it doesn't.
#2. When you sit is a low horse stance you will feel your ligaments / tendons in your hips pull and stretch. Doh.... what? you never sat in a horse stance and felt your hips stretching?

Rooting is nonsense. "Allowing blood and body fluids to sink?" They're only sinking because you're lowering yourself and they're physically getting lower as a result. In real life, when your blood and body fluids sink, it's a medical emergency and you have to go to the hospital.
#3. I am truly sorry you do not understand gravity..... try this this to help explain: Raise your arms straight up above your head and point them to the sky. Hold them there for a minute or 2. Quickly lower them down and you will actually feel your blood flowing back down into your arms. This is because blood and body fluids can move thru your body because gravity forces it downward. Gravity plays a role in your blood / fluids and how they flow in your body. as you learn to relax (in your stance) blood vessels will relax and open up, allowing blood to flow where ever gravity will take it.

Granted... aerteies are trying to carry expired blood back to the heart. You can still lower your center of gravity without bending your knees or lowering your body....by blood dropping making your center mass lower. Anyone can do this, there is no secret, just horse stance training.

I suppose, but you never use those techniques in an actual fight so it really doesn't matter.
#4. We had a discussion here before.... Horse stance is used and they even had a video clip of some mma guy hittin a horse and punching the opponent while in it, so don't gimmie that crap that it is not used in reality.

Nonense. The only way you get stronger "at the expense of skill and technique" is if you stop practicing skill and technique.
#5. If spend more time in the gym lifting than do in the kwoon practicing drills and sparring, then you are a meathead and you are trying to replace skill with strength.

All supplemental training is good. However TCMA has reasons for Horse stance as stated in my earlier post. If you want to do other things like lifting weights.... just don't forsake your meat and potatoes like sparring / drills etc.

ginosifu

YouKnowWho

09-26-2012, 01:06 PM

Besides...it helped my skiing.

After my wife took her 1st ski lesson, she still didn't know how to slow down and stop. I assume the parallel turning is not that easy for beginner. After I taught her WC YGKYM (snow plow), she had no problem on the green. If snow plow is the only skill that you have, you had better to make your horse stance strong.

sanjuro_ronin

09-26-2012, 01:09 PM

After my wife took her 1st ski lesson, she still didn't know how to slow down and stop. I assume the parallel turning is not that easy for beginner. After I taught her WC YGKYM (snow plow), she had no problem on the green. If snow plow is the only skill that you have, you had better to make your horse stance strong.

Or learn to ski ;)

wenshu

09-26-2012, 01:21 PM

Stance training was more helpful than any other exercise in opening the hips for working side splits. This for someone who started gongfu at 28 after years of running/weightlifting without any kind of flexibility training.

YouKnowWho

09-26-2012, 01:25 PM

If you go to China 30 years ago, you may have problem to go to bathroom without strong horse stance. People who said that horse stance is not important, that person may never take a dump in the woods.

Or learn to ski ;)

The 1st time I went to ski was in Cooper Mountain, CO. Without any ski experience (I thought my TCMA experience should be enough), I immediately got on the triple black diamonds "Widowmaker" slop (more life insurance were ever collected on that trail than others). After I barely made down, I took my 1st ski lesson right way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THBh7KlmM48

David Jamieson

09-26-2012, 01:57 PM

Frost

09-26-2012, 01:58 PM

Fighting, wrestling etc...is conducted from a bent legged posture. So while you are fighting, you are 'holding that angle for a period of time'.

and you never stand static in those stances, you move sideways, you raise and lower, which you are not doing in the horse stance so again, its not sports specific

YouKnowWho

09-26-2012, 02:01 PM

Can we just finish this discussion with this picture?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=how+to+take+a+dump+in+the+woods&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=684&tbm=isch&tbnid=P61g0iz6zr28OM:&imgrefurl=http://aprilandmillie.tumblr.com/page/2&docid=QpMaeA5E7kO57M&imgurl=http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/431230_10150597073070432_709525431_9515235_9369352 0_n.jpg&w=720&h=480&ei=emtjUJ6AHunbyAHTo4GwAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=532&vpy=362&dur=268&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=174&ty=109&sig=108076583744000753461&page=3&tbnh=148&tbnw=202&start=41&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:41,i:211

or this?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/koshiguruma.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm

Frost

09-26-2012, 02:06 PM

IronFist and all whom do not believe that Horse (or any static stance training) stance has value in MA:

You guys are only thinking with horse blinders on. You can only see straight ahead and what your modern science can prove. You need to step back and take your blinders off.

Horse stance gives basic leg strength. For you modern guys, if you want more.... do squats, sit on a leg press / bench etc etc.

Horse stance provides some flexibilty. Again if you want more.... do other stretches.

Horse stance does provide some balance and more important ROOTING. Rooting is the ability to sink and lower your weight mass. Horse stance practice allows you to learn how to relax while stress in on your legs, thus allowing blood and body fluids to sink.

Horse stance builds good mental focus... However it was used to weed out people with bad character. Only those individuals who persisted with Horse stance were taken in as Todai or students. Those who had the guts, stubborness, and mental fortitude would go on to learn.

Hundreds of years ago while practicing.... there some people who did not have weights (other than some rocks or stone locks) to use, so kung fu teachers used static stances and Dynamic or isometric tensions to help build strength.

Horse stance also teaches a type of structural postioning for certain techniques.

This is not to say that we as a modern society do not have other methods to build strength, however too many of you meatheads replace important kung fu drills with weight lifting. Getting stronger is good but not at the expense of skill and technique.

Remember that Horse stance training is just like running or push ups or hitting the heavy bags. They are all supplimental training and are second to solo and 2 person drills and sparring.

ginosifu

so at one point in your post you acknowledge weights are useful and ancient teachers didnt have access to them so had to use stances (the implication being if they did have weights they would have used them) then call those of us who are simply saying the above implicitly and not just hinting at it, that we are stupid meatheads (oh and thanks for that nice way of lumping those of us who have done both TCMA and modern weight training and studied both seriously in such a stupid group)
And you are right they are supplemental exercises which should not take time away your main training: so if one method is superior, quicker and better at producing your desired end goal (getting stronger) why not switch to it?

Bacon

09-26-2012, 02:12 PM

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 02:31 PM

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 02:32 PM

Man...the snarky in this forum is thick.

So...to conclude:

If you are too lazy to train and an MMA kid defeats you, then stances are worthless.

Got it.

IronWeasel

09-26-2012, 02:35 PM

Maybe if a CMA guy beats up Ironfist, he'll come back to us...

:)

Bacon

09-26-2012, 02:42 PM

Horse stance = static exercise. squats=dynamic exercise . squat jump = ballistic exercise.:)...or a leg press on a machine could also = ballistic

You have to train all three to optimize your results.:eek: static, dynamic and ballistic exercises.

Anyone that thinks there isnt any transferable skills acquired by doing horse stance or that there isn't anything to be gained by using it needs to get a clue. And if not, feel free to keep training like you are from the last century or so.:rolleyes:

It is part of the integrated training approach that everyone is using in the personal training/ health/ fitness fields .

Its the reason why all these professional sport figures are getting so good. They have found that having a scientific understanding , rational and methods to train increases performance and minimizes injury.

works along the lines of training smarter and not harder. you can only train so hard to get results , eventually control and injury become a factor...

You don't need a static hold unless you're very weak and even then it's only to build strength to get you to dynamic.

Others have argued that there is a dynamic component to horse stance training and again the modern weight lifting beats it out.

THAT is the current training methodology of PTs and pro fighters. You will never find a pro mma or muay Thai fighter doing static holds. It's squats, squats, and weighted squats.

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 02:58 PM

You don't need a static hold unless you're very weak and even then it's only to build strength to get you to dynamic.

Others have argued that there is a dynamic component to horse stance training and again the modern weight lifting beats it out.

THAT is the current training methodology of PTs and pro fighters. You will never find a pro mma or muay Thai fighter doing static holds. It's squats, squats, and weighted squats. Current and active PFT:).... in all phases of training you can benefit from static exercises/ stretches.

once again part of the modern view and methodology used by all current trainers in the field.

Of course it is needed less as you progress, however it is still needed and benefited from.... you need all three to optimize results.

if people aren't using it then they are missing out on a major training component in all phases of training.

Never would?? huh! I think you would be surprised in the ways MMA and the pros are training now a days.

Come to think of it, most of the UFC champs are all MMA guys with a BB/ solid foundation in traditional arts, many of them probably have done/ do a great deal of stance/ horse training. static, dynamic and ballistic. :D

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 03:01 PM

palates, yoga , meditation and tai chi are all things I have seen / heard MMA fighters and the pros do for exercise....:)

ginosifu

09-26-2012, 03:25 PM

so at one point in your post you acknowledge weights are useful and ancient teachers didnt have access to them so had to use stances (the implication being if they did have weights they would have used them) then call those of us who are simply saying the above implicitly and not just hinting at it, that we are stupid meatheads (oh and thanks for that nice way of lumping those of us who have done both TCMA and modern weight training and studied both seriously in such a stupid group)
And you are right they are supplemental exercises which should not take time away your main training: so if one method is superior, quicker and better at producing your desired end goal (getting stronger) why not switch to it?

I do not think lifting weights is bad for MA, It just not the preferred method for me. I do know that many Meatheads (A term I use for those individuals that lift and are overly bulky) have come to my school thinking that they can replace training with more lifting and they get their a$$es handed to them by my guys who don't lift and spend most of their time drilling and sparring.

I don't think that squats or leg press are the superior method for MA training. Yeah you have strength in your legs.... Weights may help you have stronger legs which may help have stronger kicks.... but to me small amount of difference in strength for kicks is not worth it.

Because clearly th horse stance gives you teh ultim@t3 d34dly pow3rz even though it's inferior to weight training.

You are not adding to this conversation....

ginosifu

Lucas

09-26-2012, 03:37 PM

its also misleading to say that old world did not use weight training. they just werent shiny machines and cast metals. a portion is through general labor. building and repairing stone/wood structure by hand. the other is martial specific, such as lifting and pulling weights of stone or wood. locks, logs, over-weighted weapons, water, sand, ropes etc.

http://www.bgfile.com/business/inbusiness/media/atomic.jpg

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 03:40 PM

Because clearly th horse stance gives you teh ultim@t3 d34dly pow3rz even though it's inferior to weight training.Its not that at all. It just works the components of the kinetic chain differently....

also, you can still use weight in a static exercise...

anyone can move a lot of weight fast with forward momentum and inertia but what about holding that weight and stabilizing with that weight .

exercises do not always have to have added weight or movement to be beneficial. its like believing in the fat burning zone or that only cardio burns fat, it just plain and simply isnt true.

why does everyone around here do that? its either one way or another and not maybe somewhere in between?

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 03:43 PM

tattooedmonk

09-26-2012, 04:04 PM

is the process of passively taking a muscle to the point of tension and holding it for an MINIMUM of 20 seconds. low force longer duration.

One of the proposed mechanisms for this type of stretching is autogenic inhibition. By holding the muscle in a stretched position for a long period of time, the golgi tendon is stimulated and produces an inhibitory effect on the muscle spindle. This allows the muscle to relax and provides for better elongation of the muscle.

Static stretching should be used to decrease muscle spindle activity of tight muscles before and after activity.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 05:52 PM

IronFist:

#1. Basic leg strength is just as I stated..... basic. Like I said if you want to do more or go beyond this... do squats or leg press etc....

That doesn't define anything.

#2. When you sit is a low horse stance you will feel your ligaments / tendons in your hips pull and stretch. Doh.... what? you never sat in a horse stance and felt your hips stretching?

If you feel your ligaments stretching you're probably doing it wrong. You're not supposed to stretch ligaments or tendons. All lack of flexibility issues are caused by muscle tension coming from a CNS that is putting the brakes on because it thinks its about to be injured (with exceptions being possible previous tendon/ligament injuries, etc.).

#3. I am truly sorry you do not understand gravity..... try this this to help explain: Raise your arms straight up above your head and point them to the sky. Hold them there for a minute or 2. Quickly lower them down and you will actually feel your blood flowing back down into your arms. This is because blood and body fluids can move thru your body because gravity forces it downward. Gravity plays a role in your blood / fluids and how they flow in your body. as you learn to relax (in your stance) blood vessels will relax and open up, allowing blood to flow where ever gravity will take it.

That makes no sense. Your blood is always flowing everywhere anyway (assuming no circulation issues). Relaxing in a horse stance is like an oxymoron. Contrary to what TCMAists think is happening in the body, your quads are always contracted when you are in a horse stance. There is no such thing as relaxed tension. If anything, there is increased circulation in the quads because of the increased tension, not because of any "relaxing."

Granted... aerteies are trying to carry expired blood back to the heart. You can still lower your center of gravity without bending your knees or lowering your body....by blood dropping making your center mass lower. Anyone can do this, there is no secret, just horse stance training.

And lowering your center of gravity has nothing to do with blood flow. Do you think your body goes "Urgent! Our center of gravity has been lowered! Increase blood flow immediately!"?

Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

#4. We had a discussion here before.... Horse stance is used and they even had a video clip of some mma guy hittin a horse and punching the opponent while in it, so don't gimmie that crap that it is not used in reality.

So it happened once. Way to go. Was he fighting in a horse stance? Of course not. So there's no reason to need to sit in one for 15 minutes as part of training.

#5. If spend more time in the gym lifting than do in the kwoon practicing drills and sparring, then you are a meathead and you are trying to replace skill with strength.

Wow, stereotype much? lol.

All supplemental training is good. However TCMA has reasons for Horse stance as stated in my earlier post. If you want to do other things like lifting weights.... just don't forsake your meat and potatoes like sparring / drills etc.

I agree TCMA has reasons for horse stance training. But practical fitness and fighting do not. That's why I said, if your goal is to do TCMA stuff, like forms that require long stances, then keep on doing your horse stances.

Just don't do them thinking you are getting stronger, because (after the first minute or two) you are not.

wenshu

09-26-2012, 05:57 PM

I suspect hundreds of years ago they also did weightless body squats (sometimes called "Hindu squats"), but for some reason those got dropped out of popular kung fu training.

The **** you talking about?

If there is one thing I've learned from you dull efficiency obsessed pragmatists is that apparently the most efficient way to train something is to not train it at all.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 05:58 PM

Ironfist, your experience is your own.

You are starting to do the brash chest pounding crap now, so, chill.
You may very well like what you like, But I don't count you as qualified to speak in depth about what TCMA does or doesn't offer.

your experience with it, in it is limited. You have obviously jumped ship and so, don't even bother learning it anymore it would seem, but you take time to make criticism of it's methods.

That's cool. It's your stuff. Hang onto it. I don't share that view with you and find your view to only be an attempt at trying to diminish. And your post 4 did not scientifically explain anything. You seem to have cherry picked 1 line from the article I provided.

Just odd man. Why do you hate TCMA so much anyway? We are likely to all go train some Horse stance today. You disapprove, oh well. lol :p

I explained biomechanically why hip flexors don't play a role in horse stance. I'm not sure what else you need.

Here I will try again:

Hip flexors pull the knee up. Like if you do a front kick and hold your leg out, you will feel them flexing. If you do an exaggerated marching motion, that is what your hip flexors do. If you throw a knee strike, that is hip flexors.

Hip flexors pull the knee up against tension. In the above examples, the "tension" is the weight of your leg on gravity. If you put weights on your ankles and did a marching motion, your hip flexors would work harder because they are lifting more weight (the weight of your leg + the ankle weights against gravity).

When you sit in a horse stance, you're not pulling your knees up against any resistance, therefore your hip flexors are not doing anything.

Hip flexors are antagonistic in a horse stance. If they are doing anything during a horse stance they are relaxing by definition of antagonist muscle.

IronFist

09-26-2012, 06:00 PM

The **** you talking about?

If there is one thing I've learned from you dull efficiency obsessed pragmatists is that apparently the most efficient way to train something is to not train it at all.

So you don't think kung fu dudes used to do Hindu squats? Ok. I have no proof either way, I just said I suspect they did at one point.

Re: your second paragraph, you must have misread every post I've ever made in this forum. The only advice I've ever given is 1) develop good technique and 2) get strong, a subset of which is 2.5) don't waste your time doing training that doesn't help with points 1 and 2 (eg. horse stance).

wenshu

09-26-2012, 06:04 PM

I see your sense of irony is as well developed as your martial art skills.

ginosifu

09-26-2012, 06:13 PM

I explained biomechanically why hip flexors don't play a role in horse stance. I'm not sure what else you need.

Here I will try again:

Hip flexors pull the knee up. Like if you do a front kick and hold your leg out, you will feel them flexing. If you do an exaggerated marching motion, that is what your hip flexors do. If you throw a knee strike, that is hip flexors.

Hip flexors pull the knee up against tension. In the above examples, the "tension" is the weight of your leg on gravity. If you put weights on your ankles and did a marching motion, your hip flexors would work harder because they are lifting more weight (the weight of your leg + the ankle weights against gravity).

When you sit in a horse stance, you're not pulling your knees up against any resistance, therefore your hip flexors are not doing anything.

Hip flexors are antagonistic in a horse stance. If they are doing anything during a horse stance they are relaxing by definition of antagonist muscle.

What I would Like to know is who made you an authority on the human body? Just because you type words on the page does not make you an authority on anything. Granted I have no degree in human anatomy but I know what works for me. I have gotten more flexible in my hip areas with more horse stance training, the more I do it the more wider I can go out in my splits. Works for me.... More horse stance, more flexible.

Just because you do not understand gravity does not make you right. I may not be expalining it exactly correct but the idea is that can control the blood flow in your body.

ginosifu

No_Know

09-26-2012, 08:24 PM

Horse stance works the hip flexors about as much as barbell curls work the triceps.

Whether I'm a kinesiologist or not has no bearing on the correctness of what I say. You were disproven by your own wikipedia link.

How does it existing in yoga have anything to do with this discussion? Holding a static pushup is useless as far as MA is concerned and as far as strength development is concerned.

I might think that the muscles about the joints get conditioned in a locked-out position held to better support the articulation. In an unlocked position the tremmor might be some sort of exercise plus cardiovascular--better wind/endurance

Then use science to disprove what I said in post 4 rather than just posting what you think. FWIW, I also used to train horse stance daily years and years ago. I thought it was giving me all these benefits, but really all it was doing was letting me hold horse stance longer.
...
To the person who said it improved their skiing, I can see that happening because your skiing posture is probably within +/- 15 degrees or so of horse stance posture and the ability to hold it longer may have some carryover into your skiing stability.

It seems more that a Wing Ch/Ts un stance would be more akin to a skiing stance, I say this because my comprehension for downhill skiing is knees together. But actually T'ai Chi Ch'uan's...Golden ****ereral Stance. unevenness suited to one leg stances as a condition training...Muay Thai rising knee exercises might also be good for skiing if I have correctness about the unevenness or bent knee straight knee of slalom.
But yes, conditioning cross-over.

No_Know

09-26-2012, 08:34 PM

The way I did it I got breathing benefit it seemed. I also liked how I eventually leveraged the stance into a defensable position. Abdominal development when wlking with it as well as Phoenix-Eye Fist's dynamic use/movements while stancing-particularly Horse-riding based stance. [saw in a book]

No_Know

Bacon

09-26-2012, 09:05 PM

What I would Like to know is who made you an authority on the human body? Just because you type words on the page does not make you an authority on anything. Granted I have no degree in human anatomy but I know what works for me. I have gotten more flexible in my hip areas with more horse stance training, the more I do it the more wider I can go out in my splits. Works for me.... More horse stance, more flexible.

Just because you do not understand gravity does not make you right. I may not be expalining it exactly correct but the idea is that can control the blood flow in your body.

ginosifu

That's not hip flexors. That's adductors.
I'd like to know who made you the self righteous king of the idiots.

Frost

09-27-2012, 01:07 AM

they are missing out on a major training component in all phases of training.

Never would?? huh! I think you would be surprised in the ways MMA and the pros are training now a days.

Come to think of it, most of the UFC champs are all MMA guys with a BB/ solid foundation in traditional arts, many of them probably have done/ do a great deal of stance/ horse training. static, dynamic and ballistic. :D

Really which pros have you trained with on a regular basis and which ones are doing stance training now, not in the past but now as part of their training?

Frost

09-27-2012, 01:14 AM

I explained biomechanically why hip flexors don't play a role in horse stance. I'm not sure what else you need.

Here I will try again:

Hip flexors pull the knee up. Like if you do a front kick and hold your leg out, you will feel them flexing. If you do an exaggerated marching motion, that is what your hip flexors do. If you throw a knee strike, that is hip flexors.

Hip flexors pull the knee up against tension. In the above examples, the "tension" is the weight of your leg on gravity. If you put weights on your ankles and did a marching motion, your hip flexors would work harder because they are lifting more weight (the weight of your leg + the ankle weights against gravity).

When you sit in a horse stance, you're not pulling your knees up against any resistance, therefore your hip flexors are not doing anything.

Hip flexors are antagonistic in a horse stance. If they are doing anything during a horse stance they are relaxing by definition of antagonist muscle.

you must have learned by now jamison goes off in a huff if he is proved wrong :)

If people dont like the science behind Ironfists posts refute it with...well better science, dont accuse him of being puffed up when he is simply stating facts about the human body, or try to back out by saying i dont know the science but it works for me, argue against it using the same science he is, dont make it personal because you cant disprove what he is saying.....

YouKnowWho

09-27-2012, 04:00 AM

1. Does "static horse stance" training have value? Of course it does. When you are in a 9 x 5 prison cell, the static horse stance training may be the only thing that you are able to do.

2. Will it be better to spend the same training time in "dynamic horse stance" training? Of course it's better. Onething for sure is that you can't stand in horse stance and expect your opponent to fly over your head by himself. By doing dynamic horse stance training such as "hip throw" drill, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone (strong legs, fast footwork).

3. Will it be better to train "dynamic horse stance with weight" (such as throwing dummy)? Of course it's better. You can kill 3 birds with 1 stone (strong legs, fast footwork, strong structure). It takes strong legs, fast footwork, and strong structure to be able to do the "firemen's carry" and there is no argue on that.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 05:27 AM

Keep it civil and watch the insults people, if you can't make your point without insulting, being rude or condescending then you don't have much of a point, do you?

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 05:34 AM

What seems to be needed to be reiterated is that NO ONE is saying that horse stance training is NOT beneficial.
What is being said is that, outside of the direct attributes in static stance training ( you get better at doing a horse stance by doing it and holding it as long as you can) there isn't MUCH ( no one is saying there isn't ANY) carryover to dynamic MA application.
Certainly every MA has a "horse stance" whether it be a "direct" stance or a transitional stance.
Training techniques withing a horse stance gives you the double benefit.
Training the horse stance in a dynamic as well as static way gives you better benefits than just one or the other.
Everyone agrees with this.
The issue is NOT that horse stance training has benefits ( all agree it has) , the issue seems to be what those benefits are and if there are better ways to get them other than horse stance training.
I think its a "false" argument because there is no reason to NOT do BOTH and by both I mean do static and dynamic horse stance training AND other methods of leg strengthening.

David Jamieson

09-27-2012, 06:48 AM

you must have learned by now jamison goes off in a huff if he is proved wrong :)

If people dont like the science behind Ironfists posts refute it with...well better science, dont accuse him of being puffed up when he is simply stating facts about the human body, or try to back out by saying i dont know the science but it works for me, argue against it using the same science he is, dont make it personal because you cant disprove what he is saying.....

Listen Frost, don't be making your typical jackwagon commentary.

Ironfist Cherry picked ONE line out of an entire article and now believes that hip flexor use is related to how to build them. NO science about it at all and it was an article I provided.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but try not to be a herd minded idiot and start going off on me when you haven't been following along.

wenshu

09-27-2012, 06:49 AM

If people dont like the science behind Ironfists posts refute it with...well better science, dont accuse him of being puffed up when he is simply stating facts about the human body, or try to back out by saying i dont know the science but it works for me, argue against it using the same science he is, dont make it personal because you cant disprove what he is saying.....

You use the term science too loosely. The problem with this particular thread (other than its existence in the first place) is that one person made a lazy mistake about hip flexors and somehow that became the focus in spite of the fact that Jameson was the only one who said anything about hip flexors. Now if he had said something about compression of the hip flexors which is actually important for a lot of things it would be different.

Just to remind everybody what science actually looks like.

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/1989/05000/Functional_Isometric_Weight_Training__Its_Effects. 2.aspx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22991668

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1501558

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20186425

This is about maximum isometric strength so it's only marginally related to stance training but it's really interesting nonetheless.

http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/14/v5combat-14.pdf

if you can't make your point without insulting, being rude or condescending then you don't have much of a point, do you?

Lets not delude ourselves; sometimes that is the point.

I reserve the right to troll the trolls. Actually, I blame Lucas for starting this in the first place cause I'm pretty sure he was trolling.

Frost

09-27-2012, 07:12 AM

Listen Frost, don't be making your typical jackwagon commentary.

Ironfist Cherry picked ONE line out of an entire article and now believes that hip flexor use is related to how to build them. NO science about it at all and it was an article I provided.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but try not to be a herd minded idiot and start going off on me when you haven't been following along.

He cherry picked something so fundamentally wrong it points to your limited knowledge on the subject, so perhaps you should be the one to stop chest beating and inferring we all should be as experienced as you before making comments

Here’s what I mean by your chest beating and picking on peoples as you see it lack of knowledge

1) If you don't think that helps your kicking, you likely don't know much about the human body.
2) You young bucks always so quick to try to get people to turn away from stuff you don't do. YOu get critical about things you have really no place criticizing.As for this
try not to be a herd minded idiot (if I was you id take a look in the mirror before making statements like this)

You keep going on and on about how ironfist doesn’t have any TCMA knowledge so shouldn’t be speaking on the subject, yet cant refute anything he says about how misguided you were on one of your key points honestly its funny

Ironfist went into a lengthy post as to why you were so wrong to which your reply to his detailed point was...so you are against resistance training, great come back why to simply hold your hand up and say sorry I was wrong I don’t know what im talking about

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 08:23 AM

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 08:33 AM

I GIVE THIS AS A GIFT, SINCE THE FAKE SEEMS TO FEEL HE IS DA REAL, WITH HIS PERFECT BO STANCE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE WRONG WITH IT? WHY IS IT PERFECT OR WHY IS IT NOT PERFECT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8-12uENeo&feature=relmfu

Hmmm, well, that depends on a few things BUT off the top of my head:
Wrong: too low ( personal though, not all may see it that way)
Too narrow ( rear leg needs to be out more)
Too stiff (legs) and too erect ( torso) but some may argue with the torso part.
Front foot is not lined up correct ( again some may argue that depending on the style and purpose of the stance).
Right: Front knee is NOT extending past the front foot/toes.

Lucas

09-27-2012, 08:41 AM

its weird because his rear leg looks like his knee is locked. thats a big no no unless you're a modern performance guy.

Lucas

09-27-2012, 08:42 AM

Actually, I blame Lucas for starting this in the first place cause I'm pretty sure he was trolling.

I never troll. Ever.

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 08:45 AM

its weird because his rear leg looks like his knee is locked. thats a big no no unless you're a modern performance guy.

Indeed, it seems to be a performance stance or a training stance, both are done, typically, with an over-exaggeration with no regard for combat application.

tattooedmonk

09-27-2012, 08:48 AM

I tried to clue him in on a more constructive level about what's wrong with his stances, he at least said thanks,:eek::D

David Jamieson

09-27-2012, 09:02 AM

He cherry picked something so fundamentally wrong it points to your limited knowledge on the subject, so perhaps you should be the one to stop chest beating and inferring we all should be as experienced as you before making comments

Here’s what I mean by your chest beating and picking on peoples as you see it lack of knowledge
As for this (if I was you id take a look in the mirror before making statements like this)

You keep going on and on about how ironfist doesn’t have any TCMA knowledge so shouldn’t be speaking on the subject, yet cant refute anything he says about how misguided you were on one of your key points honestly its funny

Ironfist went into a lengthy post as to why you were so wrong to which your reply to his detailed point was...so you are against resistance training, great come back why to simply hold your hand up and say sorry I was wrong I don’t know what im talking about

Dude, all this banal crap you're trying to pin on me is your own behaviour.

Check yourself.

IronFist

09-27-2012, 09:38 AM

Hmmm, well, that depends on a few things BUT off the top of my head:
Wrong: too low ( personal though, not all may see it that way)
Too narrow ( rear leg needs to be out more)
Too stiff (legs) and too erect ( torso) but some may argue with the torso part.
Front foot is not lined up correct ( again some may argue that depending on the style and purpose of the stance).
Right: Front knee is NOT extending past the front foot/toes.

Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean out more? Further behind him? That would change the angle of his front knee.

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 09:52 AM

Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean out more? Further behind him? That would change the angle of his front knee.

His rear leg is far to in,making for the overall area occupied by both legs far too narow, it also will "lock" the hips and waist, not allowing for full power generation.
In short, with his right leg forward at 12 o'clock and his rear leg at close to 6, it is too narrow and his rear leg should be more at 7 or 8 o'clock.

Lucas

09-27-2012, 09:52 AM

Lucas

09-27-2012, 10:14 AM

i did make a comment on his video about his knee ( i was very nice ), but i dont want to overload the guy with good advice so i'll let him figure out his narrow stance issues another way.

it definately looks like a modern wushu performance stance though.

a lot of people dont know the difference.

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 10:17 AM

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 10:18 AM

I think what he means is that his stance should have his feet further apart from each other. as he stands in that video, his front foot is relatively straight, and with his stance so narrow, he can easily be toppled to either side. you see a narrow stance somewhat similar to that in shaolin kungfu, however that is due to the front foot being turned in at roughly 45 degree angle making a more narrow stance feasible.

edit: sanjuro is a poopoo head, i mean really cool guy

Your description was spot on bro.
:p

IMO and perhaps this is because I was exposed to a few different ways of doing the front stance ( CMA, JMA, OMA and KMA) for the front stance to not only be stable BUT to be able to generate the kind of torque need to have power behind your strikes, the stance has to be at least shoulder width wide.

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 10:22 AM

Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean out more? Further behind him? That would change the angle of his front knee.

don't answer this nut job. he should already know, don't educate him:rolleyes:

Lucas

09-27-2012, 10:25 AM

Your description was spot on bro.
:p

IMO and perhaps this is because I was exposed to a few different ways of doing the front stance ( CMA, JMA, OMA and KMA) for the front stance to not only be stable BUT to be able to generate the kind of torque need to have power behind your strikes, the stance has to be at least shoulder width wide.

Totally. Even in my cma foundation we were taught several ways to do the bow and arrow/mountain climbing stance, partially because everyone is a bit different and also because it was a combination northern and southern kungfu school.

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 10:27 AM

Totally. Even in my cma foundation we were taught several ways to do the bow and arrow/mountain climbing stance, partially because everyone is a bit different and also because it was a combination northern and southern kungfu school.

Sometimes people do forget that there are many ways to do a stance.
I've learned a bunch of different horse stance in CMA alone.
Typically there are two in JMA/OMA and that is kiba-dachi ( toes forward) and shiko- dachi ( toes out at a 45).
Front stance however, in JMA,OMA and KMA tend to be the same with the only difference being the height.

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 10:29 AM

We used to spend a good 10-15 min on stance training in Karate, going from one to another and them moving up an down the dojo from one to another.
Then we would hold the stance and get kicked and punched while holding it and get kicked in the legs and hit by a shinai, good times !

ginosifu

09-27-2012, 10:37 AM

I GIVE THIS AS A GIFT, SINCE THE FAKE SEEMS TO FEEL HE IS DA REAL, WITH HIS PERFECT BO STANCE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE WRONG WITH IT? WHY IS IT PERFECT OR WHY IS IT NOT PERFECT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8-12uENeo&feature=relmfu

#1. His posture is too upright. He should be leaning forward with spine and his back leg in the same alignment.

#2. His front toe is too straight forward. It should be truned inward at a 45' angle.

#3. His back foot is too sideways. It should be turned forward at a 45' angle.

#4. Hips should never be that low. Hips should only go to right above front knee level.

#5 Your knee should extend beyond your toes.

ginosifu

David Jamieson

09-27-2012, 10:47 AM

Lucas

09-27-2012, 11:10 AM

This thread needs some humor.

http://midatlanticnostalgiaconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/The-Three-Stooges-DVD.jpg

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 11:13 AM

the three stooges were choy lee fut fighters!

Lucas

09-27-2012, 11:24 AM

http://donrosenberger.150m.com/stooges/curlyshuffle.gif

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 11:37 AM

http://geekoutlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Sofia-Bounce.gif

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 11:40 AM

http://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/sofia-milk.gif

Lucas

09-27-2012, 11:41 AM

she has powerful fajin. it obviously is a result of proper horse stance training.

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 11:42 AM

http://i.imgur.com/9olDC.gif

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 11:44 AM

Back to the thread:

http://i.imgur.com/xhXOk.gif

TenTigers

09-27-2012, 11:50 AM

http://donrosenberger.150m.com/stooges/curlyshuffle.gif
it looks as if Moe is wearing Pumas.....

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 11:52 AM

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/2ightn7.gif?w=352&h=240

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 11:57 AM

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1985902/82080317.gif

Lucas

09-27-2012, 11:58 AM

Those girls are doing it wrong!!! :eek:

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 12:00 PM

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1Smv3vJLuZE/T6F_Lz7ZIlI/AAAAAAAABG4/ezoNjcstf5M/miscellaneous-image-sexy-walk-butt-gif-sexy-girl-sexy-walk-1-different-animated-films-animacje-gift-jr-sexy-pk-favorites-diafora-great-stuff-pics_large%255B1%255D.gif

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 12:00 PM

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m229ktVFyo1qlsy3fo1_250.gif

Lucas

09-27-2012, 12:16 PM

What are you guys doing to my awesome thread???!??!

IronFist

09-27-2012, 12:20 PM

This is for IronFist and Frost.

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls32.htm

This is in your terminology and according to what you favour, so F**K Me right?

(tip: step 1.search article for "hip flexors", step 2. learn)

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I found that same site when I googled. Someone else already posted it on another forum in a similar discussion. They were still wrong.

Here is the link and relevant parts:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143328683&p=853298523&viewfull=1#post853298523

What Simmons says is "Most people think of squatting as a multi-joint muscular action. I see it as flexion of the spinal erectors and hip flexors and slight flexion of the knees."

I think people risk blindly following what people are saying. I'm not even sure what he is getting at here. You do flex your knees during squats. You also flex the hip joint. The spine isn't flexed (usually people are taught to keep it extended) although the spinal erectors/extensors are 'tensed' isometrically to resist flexion.

The hip joint flexes, and there is activity in hip flexor muscles when you are lowering eccentrically, but that's just to help the agonists relax and move into a difficult position when they really don't want to.

You use your triceps in the same way during a biceps curl, but that doesn't mean biceps curls create a training effect or provide significant resistance to the triceps.

...snip...

The "hip flexors" don't work when you stand up (except some minor work in rectus femoris to extend the knee, and minor work in the psoas to stabilize the spine, since those two guys DO OTHER THINGS).

The hip flexors do work when you walk, because they lift the leg forward when you take a step.

They work a little bit when you sit down to tell your glutes to relax, but that's negligible. That's about as much work as your glutes get when you lower your knees during hanging leg raises. Or as much work as your lats get when you lower your elbows during lateral raises. Or the work your abs and hip flexors get while lowering down into a back extension.

These are antagonist muscle groups for these movements. Agonist muscles are the ones that receive the training effect from movements. Antagonist muscles don't get hit much at all, if they do it's only because your body is fighting itself rather than the weight (like "making a bicep").

What they do is basically at the top of the movement say "hey, I want to lower to the bottom so I can begin another rep from the stretched position. Please don't keep working your hardest all maximally shortened, relax a bit as I help gravity pull us to the beginning of the rep".

...snip...

The hip flexors don't get significant work in sitting down, they only pulse gently to allow the legs to bend under the weight and do the concentric portion. The slower your eccentric, the gentler this is.

Simmons went on to say "It’s much like trying to jump onto a high box; you flex as much as possible in the beginning and hope you make it." so it sounds like he was talking about how to do those really fast eccentrics (where you drop under the weight in half a second) to recruit tendon bounce and stretch reflex or something like that.

...snip...

sanjuro_ronin

09-27-2012, 12:25 PM

What are you guys doing to my awesome thread???!??!

Making it all about the deep horse stance !!

There is a science behind it
http://vanfullofcandy.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/hot-for-teacher.jpg

hskwarrior

09-27-2012, 12:34 PM

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m229ktVFyo1qlsy3fo1_250.gif

I don't want to see Jake the Fake doing this however.

but, look, her back is straight and tailbone is knee level. and she's in heals. my kind of gung fu girl.

Old Noob

09-27-2012, 01:04 PM

Horse stance training is good for Gagnam Style.

IronFist

09-27-2012, 01:38 PM

Horse stance training is good for Gagnam Style.

And with this, I think the issue is settled :D

http://i.imgur.com/gUrIL.jpg

Lucas

09-27-2012, 04:14 PM

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/55899697/Swole+Patrol+deadhorse.jpg

tattooedmonk

09-27-2012, 04:18 PM

Hilarious, thats about the end of this conversation.

Lucas

09-27-2012, 04:18 PM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fpHe6JNeeFI/T348yfKGwfI/AAAAAAAAgrA/b0ga8_rpxpY/s1600/healthcare.jpg

Sima Rong

09-27-2012, 04:56 PM

And with this, I think the issue is settled :D

http://i.imgur.com/gUrIL.jpg

You should have posted an image of the guy doing horse stance in the lift in that video. That has better form. :)

Frost

09-28-2012, 01:20 AM

Dude, all this banal crap you're trying to pin on me is your own behaviour.

Check yourself.

they are quotes from you, i can go on and onabout it but theres no point because on certain issues you are clueless (which is fine we all are) but you are also defensive and aggressive and a chest beater:)

Frost

09-28-2012, 01:28 AM

Yeah, I found that same site when I googled. Someone else already posted it on another forum in a similar discussion. They were still wrong.

Here is the link and relevant parts:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143328683&p=853298523&viewfull=1#post853298523

what Ironfit posted: plus Louie is not a scientist, he is also not a god and can get things wrong. He is also not a coach of raw squatters, he coaches guys who squat in double ply suits in the APF, if you are fighting in double ply you should listen to him, if you are fighting RAW (yes l went there so Ronin can post a picture) there is no reason to listen to him
If you don’t know the difference between double ply and raw squatting, or the difference between IPF and APF squatting styles and how it pertains to this discussion ask me and ill tell you :)

Syn7

09-28-2012, 02:25 AM

I think static positions have their place. I also think it's good to use a full range of motion as well. If I had 1 hour to train, I would spend more time on dynamic motions than static positions.

That being said, if you could only choose one, horse stance or squats, squats would be the better choice for kicking power. Anyone who truly understand the body cannot disagree with that. Pretty basic, actually. Not that squats are all you need. They just cover more as far as kicking is concerned.

In all honesty, I would hate to have to choose between the two. I love them both. I get something from both that I cannot get from the other.

I also agree that there is a mental aspect as well. Holding a position is far more mentally draining than a hard dynamic workout. Personally, both put me in a mediative state when I want it. Or I can get all excited and aggressive. Depends on my mood and goals for the session. I'm not talking about just squats and horse stances, I mean in general.

David Jamieson

09-28-2012, 05:31 AM

they are quotes from you, i can go on and onabout it but theres no point because on certain issues you are clueless (which is fine we all are) but you are also defensive and aggressive and a chest beater:)

am I now. lol.

So, besides your personal beef with me,, by the way we've never met, what is it that is wrong in the articles I posted and what is it that you can show me is wrong about the engagement of the posterior chain and all it's muscles through the horse stance.

i mean lets face it, you don't know, so why do you argue against what you think I am instead of just looking at what is written, accepting that you don't know and move on.

Yeah, there's things I don't know, but skeletal muscles and how they work? Dude, I've been doing art, fine art for decades. Anatomy and function is not some mystery to me.

Your opinion is a dime a dozen. IE: not worth much. But hey, if I ruffled your feathers, I don't care, maybe you educated yourself about the posterior chain and the hip flexors part in it..

Edit: Ironfist sorry pal, it's you who are wrong. You are making an argument out of ignorance and trying to find loopholes. Bottom line= you are wrong and horse stance training works the posterior chain including hiip flexors. If you want, go do it in front of a kiniseologist and ask them directly what is being worked. Making an argument with me about it will get you nowhere.

Edit: what is it with you guys trying to drown out an argument with boobies anyway? It's a good argument!

Frost

09-28-2012, 05:46 AM

am I now. lol.

So, besides your personal beef with me,, by the way we've never met, what is it that is wrong in the articles I posted and what is it that you can show me is wrong about the engagement of the posterior chain and all it's muscles through the horse stance.

i mean lets face it, you don't know, so why do you argue against what you think I am instead of just looking at what is written, accepting that you don't know and move on.

Yeah, there's things I don't know, but skeletal muscles and how they work? Dude, I've been doing art, fine art for decades. Anatomy and function is not some mystery to me.

Your opinion is a dime a dozen. IE: not worth much. But hey, if I ruffled your feathers, I don't care, maybe you educated yourself about the posterior chain and the hip flexors part in it..

Edit: Ironfist sorry pal, it's you who are wrong. You are making an argument out of ignorance and trying to find loopholes. Bottom line= you are wrong and horse stance training works the posterior chain including hiip flexors. If you want, go do it in front of a kiniseologist and ask them directly what is being worked. Making an argument with me about it will get you nowhere.

Edit: what is it with you guys trying to drown out an argument with boobies anyway? It's a good argument!

I think ironfist posted quite well about why your initial post was wrong, and posted a nice rebuttal about Louie Simmons article, by the way the posterior chain is only really of primarily importance to leg power and the squat if you lift in double ply, use a super wide stance because of the gear and briefs you are using, don’t have to engage the quads much because you are in said gear and don’t need to go below parallel: all of which applies to Louie and his guys. If you don’t do the above you shouldn’t be listening to him about squats or building lower body strength for athletic endeavour

As for opinions not being worth much Lol I could quote about how you thought you could pull the guard whilst having the hooks in (to show what you don’t know about grappling) how you thought tabata intervals were the same as alactic power work (to show how much you don’t know about the bodies energy systems) but hey keep the insults coming its funny!

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 05:53 AM

You guys...always so bent on being right to protect the years invested in something...

You take what you like that seems to justify your position and ignore the rest that goes against it.

So either/or...

The exchange between David and IF and Frost is a perfect example.

Hip flexors and what do they do:
In human anatomy, the hip flexors are a group of skeletal muscles that act to flex the femur (thigh bone) onto the lumbo-pelvic complex, i.e., pull the knee upward.

In short, while DROPPING into the horse stance, they are NOT working directly since NOTHING is being pulled "up" BUT they are involved.

Exercise the strengthen the hip flexors DIRECTLY:

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/HipsWt.html#anchor1938598

Note not one mention of holding a static deep stance.

BUT that doesn't mean that the hip flexors are NOT involved at all or that they are NOT strenghtened AT ALL in a horse stance.
They are just not one of the primary muscles involved in the CONCENTRIC or ISOMETIC phase.

Frost

09-28-2012, 06:00 AM

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 06:05 AM

Ok so getting away from my david bashing, a serious question for you all.
= if there is a better way to strengthen the legs, build power and endurance in them, a method that they didn’t have full access to back in the old days but we do have access to now, why hang on to those old methods, I’m not saying they are not of use or don’t have some merit BUT if a superior method is available why still do it?

Because horse stance training is NOT JUST about that.
There are far better methods to build cardio endurance for boxing than road work, but yet...
I have never done horse stance training to strengthen my legs, ever.
I have always done it for the sake of putting myself through pointless pain and anguish, to feel my legs quiver and shake and to mentally go past a barrier that I couldn't do before.

Much like reaching and breaking through the "wall" in distance running.

Frost

09-28-2012, 06:09 AM

Because horse stance training is NOT JUST about that.
There are far better methods to build cardio endurance for boxing than road work, but yet...
I have never done horse stance training to strengthen my legs, ever.
I have always done it for the sake of putting myself through pointless pain and anguish, to feel my legs quiver and shake and to mentally go past a barrier that I couldn't do before.

Much like reaching and breaking through the "wall" in distance running.

why not get that from sparring, direct practise of your art, something which has a tangible and direct carry over to art?

Boxer run to build leg endurance, to build a cardio base and to help recover from previous training as well as to get mental tooughness, ie it has a direct positive impact on their fighting skills

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 07:04 AM

why not get that from sparring, direct practise of your art, something which has a tangible and direct carry over to art?

Boxer run to build leg endurance, to build a cardio base and to help recover from previous training as well as to get mental tooughness, ie it has a direct positive impact on their fighting skills

Well, there is the tradition reason ( much like road work in boxing that is passe, because of tradition many still do it) and then there is the "outside application" reason, having a strong and stable stance is good to have in everyday life.
Let me give you an example:
Last summer on the beach with my girls, I was digging a big freaking hole and was, basically, in a horse stance for a good 10-15 min as I dug away.
No problem.

Frost

09-28-2012, 07:27 AM

Well, there is the tradition reason ( much like road work in boxing that is passe, because of tradition many still do it) and then there is the "outside application" reason, having a strong and stable stance is good to have in everyday life.
Let me give you an example:
Last summer on the beach with my girls, I was digging a big freaking hole and was, basically, in a horse stance for a good 10-15 min as I dug away.
No problem.

fair enough there i can see its application :)
As for road work being passe, i would disagree but thats another thread lol

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 07:30 AM

fair enough there i can see its application :)
As for road work being passe, i would disagree but thats another thread lol

Well, passe in terms of how value it WAS viewed to how it is viewed nowadays.
I recall that when Hatfiled trained Holyfield, one of the first things he did was decrease his roadwork big time ( he would have eliminated it but Holyfield love to run).
His reasoning was because there are far better and more DIRECT methods to get cardio work for boxing and the strengthen the legs ( sound familiar?).

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 07:34 AM

Here's something interesting.
I was discussing this with my wife yesterday, she likes to ask how my day went and what arguments I got into, LOL !
As an experiement I put her in a horse stance, not too low mind you, just above parallel, and at about a min it starts to burn and about 90 sec her legs shake and 2 min in she says she can't do it anymore, so I tell her to do what I do and i drop into a horse and do some punches and blocks and such, before you know it, while still in a horse stance, she lasts 2 more mins.
Her mind got taken away from the pain in her legs into focusing on doing what I was doing.

Frost

09-28-2012, 07:37 AM

Well, passe in terms of how value it WAS viewed to how it is viewed nowadays.
I recall that when Hatfiled trained Holyfield, one of the first things he did was decrease his roadwork big time ( he would have eliminated it but Holyfield love to run).
His reasoning was because there are far better and more DIRECT methods to get cardio work for boxing and the strengthen the legs ( sound familiar?).

But as a way to get direct cardiac adoptions that are needed for boxing there are few methods that match it, the same cant be said for stance training :)
And hatfield trained one fighter, already known for his cardio not to sure who else he has worked with?
Out of the following combat sports which sees the most fighters gassing in the first round or second round
1) MMA
2) Thai boxing,
3) boxing?
And which ones still use running as a big part of their training……….

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 07:47 AM

But as a way to get direct cardiac adoptions that are needed for boxing there are few methods that match it, the same cant be said for stance training :)
And hatfield trained one fighter, already known for his cardio not to sure who else he has worked with?
Out of the following combat sports which sees the most fighters gassing in the first round or second round
1) MMA
2) Thai boxing,
3) boxing?
And which ones still use running as a big part of their training……….

When I boxed I rarely ran, never gassed once.
When I started BJJ I was running a lot ( just one of those things) and I gassed liek a MOFU !!
LMAO !!

People gas more in MMA because the cardio pathways are far more varied than MT and boxing.
You know that.
But Yes, I agree that distance running has great value for general cardio that will only make the specific cardio in MA better.
That said, the anerobic aspects of MA are far greater than the aerobic ones and that is why fighters spend more time on them than the other, agreed?
Boxers spend more time on the bag, doing mitt work and sparring ( even individually and not collectively) than they do running, agreed?

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 07:54 AM

Frost

09-28-2012, 08:04 AM

When I boxed I rarely ran, never gassed once.
When I started BJJ I was running a lot ( just one of those things) and I gassed liek a MOFU !!
LMAO !!

People gas more in MMA because the cardio pathways are far more varied than MT and boxing.
You know that.
But Yes, I agree that distance running has great value for general cardio that will only make the specific cardio in MA better.
That said, the anerobic aspects of MA are far greater than the aerobic ones and that is why fighters spend more time on them than the other, agreed?
Boxers spend more time on the bag, doing mitt work and sparring ( even individually and not collectively) than they do running, agreed?

Actually I would say I disagree with you, feeling argumentative today :)
I would say combat arts are alactic aerobic in nature, brief periods of hard work (usually under 10 seconds) where the heart rate is above your threshold, followed by longer periods where you are recovering and below your threshold. As such I would say the alactic and aerobic systems are equally important (lactic not so much) and both need training equally. And since the aerobic system also plays a role in recovery between hard alactic and lactic bursts, that should be the energy pathway most trained. And if you could mitt work, shadow boxing, technical work etc into the equation as well as running they probably spent more time on aerobic than lactic work
Yep I agree with your point about MMA putting different demands on the bodies energy systems than boxing (although id say Thai with its clinch work is closer to the demands) but I feel my point still stands, MMA fighters in Europe and Russia still do a lot of road work and it shows in their fights, you see the guys on TUF doing all these lactic enducing interval sessions and then not managing to finish 1 round of fighting, it’s the same here in the UK you can tell which guys are doing their road work and which aren’t

Frost

09-28-2012, 08:05 AM

I should state that currently, in the boxing world, modern road work is NOT like the road work of the past.
It is not a long slow steady jog for 30 min or more.
Nope, even in the boxing world that has changed to more "interval" type training.

fair enough i can onmly go off the fighters i know ahd se train, you probably spend more time in the boxing world than i, but the fighters i know, both amateur and pro still use steady state alongside sprints

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 08:16 AM

Actually I would say I disagree with you, feeling argumentative today :)
I would say combat arts are alactic aerobic in nature, brief periods of hard work (usually under 10 seconds) where the heart rate is above your threshold, followed by longer periods where you are recovering and below your threshold. As such I would say the alactic and aerobic systems are equally important (lactic not so much) and both need training equally. And since the aerobic system also plays a role in recovery between hard alactic and lactic bursts, that should be the energy pathway most trained. And if you could mitt work, shadow boxing, technical work etc into the equation as well as running they probably spent more time on aerobic than lactic work
Yep I agree with your point about MMA putting different demands on the bodies energy systems than boxing (although id say Thai with its clinch work is closer to the demands) but I feel my point still stands, MMA fighters in Europe and Russia still do a lot of road work and it shows in their fights, you see the guys on TUF doing all these lactic enducing interval sessions and then not managing to finish 1 round of fighting, it’s the same here in the UK you can tell which guys are doing their road work and which aren’t

There were some boxers and probably are, the do very little or no steady road work, Julio Chavez comes to mind.
BUT I think it is important to know that begiiners in boxing ALWAYS do lots of roadwork simply because they do NOT have the core endurance needed to take advantage of intervals and "sport specififc" cardio.
To make a ST analogy:
While elite levels may not need core lifts as much and can excel with "isolation moves" they can do this because of all the time spend on core lifts in the past.

It is important for me to make clear that I believe that steady pace road work is crucial to developing the core cardio needed for interval training to take you to the next level.

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 08:18 AM

fair enough i can onmly go off the fighters i know ahd se train, you probably spend more time in the boxing world than i, but the fighters i know, both amateur and pro still use steady state alongside sprints

Oh yes for sure and again this is not an either/or thing but being smart enough to use BOTH.
Typically I still go for a 10-15 min jog before my workouts to get the blood going.

Frost

09-28-2012, 08:20 AM

Frost

09-28-2012, 08:22 AM

Oh yes for sure and again this is not an either/or thing but being smart enough to use BOTH.
Typically I still go for a 10-15 min jog before my workouts to get the blood going.

yep and this is where some trainers make me laugh, they have jumped on the you dont need steady state work just intervals band wagon, but when asked say they do a 20-30 minute warm up session before the intervals: a warm up which puts them in exactly the same heart rate zone as road work does...go figure

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 08:25 AM

There were some boxers and probably are, the do very little or no steady road work, Julio Chavez comes to mind.
BUT I think it is important to know that begiiners in boxing ALWAYS do lots of roadwork simply because they do NOT have the core endurance needed to take advantage of intervals and "sport specififc" cardio.
To make a ST analogy:
While elite levels may not need core lifts as much and can excel with "isolation moves" they can do this because of all the time spend on core lifts in the past.

It is important for me to make clear that I believe that steady pace road work is crucial to developing the core cardio needed for interval training to take you to the next level.

dont worry i have spoken to you alot on this subject and know you believe this point :)

Cool !
I know that here there is a lot of either/or POV, why I have NO idea, but I just want to be clear on that.

When I was a teen and started boxing I rarely did road work because I played futebol (soccer) and did track and had more then enough running already, LOL!

It is important to state that intervals training is NOT a basic method but at least an intermediate method and perhaps that is why it works for boxers and MT guys but seems to not work for MMA types, perhaps because they have not build up that base.
I don't know because, to be honest, I never cared enough to pay that much attention !
It always seemed to me that boxers and Thai fighters paced themsevles better than the typical MMA guy.

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 08:27 AM

yep and this is where some trainers make me laugh, they have jumped on the you dont need steady state work just intervals band wagon, but when asked say they do a 20-30 minute warm up session before the intervals: a warm up which puts them in exactly the same heart rate zone as road work does...go figure

Marketing.
When you have 1000's of dollars of machines and equipement in house, you want people to use them and think they are getting their moneys worth.
To admit the same effect from running is, well, not good marketing.

wenshu

09-28-2012, 08:49 AM

Long slow distance work doesn't have to be running.

Just saying.

The idea of steady state cardio as merely a base for high intensity is inaccurate. I went through a phase where I only did high intensity hill sprint intervals for conditioning, when I added steady state cardio back in once/twice a week I saw an almost immediate improvement in terms of quicker HR recovery between intervals, the ability to do more intervals in each session and the potential effort to reach max HR.

They're complimentary and necessary. If you're only doing one you're missing out, but I would definitely not do them both in the same training session.

Forgive the oversimplification but intervals mimic the cycle of max effort-> recovery->max effort. Steady state cardio is what allows you to keep repeating the cycle for longer periods of time.

Grappling is dependent on raw strength and boxing is more dependent on conditioning; power in boxing is more about technique than raw strength, conversely you won't get anywhere in grappling without raw strength that's why it's a different kind of "gassed".

Lucas

09-28-2012, 09:11 AM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27119989.jpg

wenshu

09-28-2012, 09:16 AM

Lucas, you probably don't even watch Star Wars.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 09:17 AM

Lucas, you probably don't even watch Star Wars.

Are you calling me a poseur? I'm a jedi master. Cuz i trained horse stance.

wenshu

09-28-2012, 09:28 AM

Bacon

09-28-2012, 09:36 AM

It just occured to me. Whenever the old stance training trope gets dusted off a popluar argument is the appeal to authority fallacy, if such and such was such a good method why don't professionals use it today.

The last page of this entire thread was a nearly incomprehensible back and forth about why boxers still do road work. Oh it must be tradition.

So when the training methods of pro atheletes align with your biases its super professionally advanced professional science, when it doesn't oh they're just needlessly adhering to tradition. See the contradiction?

Boxers and other pro fighters still do roadwork because it's good conditioning. If it was proven that there was another better way they'd do that instead... An attitude which tends to run contrary to that of most traditional martial artists and those who've been arguining for horse stance training.

The problem is the dogmatic attitude that a certain kind of training is best even when there are better ways of doing things as evidenced by the hundreds of fighters who do it. That's not appeal to authority. That's multiple case study from reliable sources who do this stuff for a living. Professionals do things based on the best data at hand. If a better training method comes along they snap it up.

It's the difference between an evidence based way of doing things and sticking your head in the sand when something contradicts your viewpoint.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 09:37 AM

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 09:45 AM

Yep, this thread has confirmed my greatest fears about this forum.

ginosifu

09-28-2012, 09:45 AM

Ok so getting away from my david bashing, a serious question for you all.
= if there is a better way to strengthen the legs, build power and endurance in them, a method that they didn’t have full access to back in the old days but we do have access to now, why hang on to those old methods, I’m not saying they are not of use or don’t have some merit BUT if a superior method is available why still do it?

Let me first state that getting stronger is good, however I do not see a tremendous value for MA to have super strong legs. What I am getting at is "How much is too much"

Do you really need all that strength in your legs? Can't you get by with just MA exercises like Horse (whether static or moving etc)? What id them purpose to super leg strength?

I have gotten by without lifting weights. No squats (sorry bawang), no leg press.. nothing. I have won fights in grappling and stand up style... so whats the big deal?

I kick hard, I can pick 250 guys up and slam em ( I'm 5'3" and 155lbs). Help me understand why a MA needs to go beyond the Kwoon for leg strength.

ginosifu

Bacon

09-28-2012, 09:47 AM

It's also important to note that if you want to study a traditional style of chinese martial arts, you must learn how to do a proper horse (along with all the other stances) so thats definately a benefit, if you want to study chinese martial arts that is. do you need cma? nope. but if you like it and want to do it, guess what? horse stance is a must, just like yoda said.

I will agree that it's vital for your stance to be good so you can move into using it for footwork. Every martial artist must have a good stance whether it's hung gar, wing chun, boxing or muay Thai. The difference is that the arts which have proven to be highly effective do not spend time standing in their stance for long periods. They learn it and then move on to footwork. For physical conditioning they do dynamic movements using bodyweight and weights as well as plyometrics. They're at the peak of physical condition and they fight for a living and yet boxers, Thai boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, and mma fighters you will never see wasting time with "stance" training beyond beginner level of learning footwork.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 09:48 AM

Yep, this thread has confirmed my greatest fears about this forum.

You fear my power.

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 09:52 AM

You fear my power.

Nah, you've been good.
Its the simple fact that people will read what they WANT to read into something, that is the major cause of conflict and arguments on this forum.
Regardless of what a person will say in a post, another will pick one part that they THINK is wrong based on what they THINK the other person is saying and off they go.
I used to think that happened only in the WC forum.
I now see that it is not restricted to that.
Shame really.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 09:52 AM

I will agree that it's vital for your stance to be good so you can move into using it for footwork. Every martial artist must have a good stance whether it's hung gar, wing chun, boxing or muay Thai. The difference is that the arts which have proven to be highly effective do not spend time standing in their stance for long periods. They learn it and then move on to footwork. For physical conditioning they do dynamic movements using bodyweight and weights as well as plyometrics. They're at the peak of physical condition and they fight for a living and yet boxers, Thai boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, and mma fighters you will never see wasting time with "stance" training beyond beginner level of learning footwork.

And you see a lot of successful sanda full contact fighters doing it. so whats your point? the reason those fighters dont is because it was never even part of the training regime, yet it has always been part of chinese martial arts, who yes, do have successful full contact fighters. and some of these guys compete in muay thai, so your example of people who fight in muay thai is wrong. maybe not the thai guys, because they do thai style, but some chinese fighters who fight in thai rules do train stances.

and if you actually read any of my posts, you will see what i view as stance training, and static stance holding is just a small portion of stance training. never the less, you are wrong, you just choose to not acknoledge sanda, for some reason.

are you saying sanda is not a good full contact sport fighting venue?

Lucas

09-28-2012, 09:53 AM

Nah, you've been good.
Its the simple fact that people will read what they WANT to read into something, that is the major cause of conflict and arguments on this forum.
Regardless of what a person will say in a post, another will pick one part that they THINK is wrong based on what they THINK the other person is saying and off they go.
I used to think that happened only in the WC forum.
I now see that it is not restricted to that.
Shame really.

inernet nature...

:o

Bacon

09-28-2012, 10:08 AM

and if you actually read any of my posts, you will see what i view as stance training, and static stance holding is just a small portion of stance training. never the less, you are wrong, you just choose to not acknoledge sanda, for some reason.

are you saying sanda is not a good full contact sport fighting venue?

And you can't accept that those methods have been improved upon?

As for sanda being a good full contact venue the rules a little skewed IMO and as much as it is a huge improvement over most of the CMA world... until you show me a sanda fighter who is a champion in Muay Thai or a major MMA organization or multiple organizations.. they just don't rate that highly.

For example take Bas Rutten. He studied Kyokushin and taekwondo and then began competing in muay Thai at age 20 and became the European muay Thai championship contender. Then he became three time King of Pancrase and UFC heavyweight champion.
Add all that together and I'd say his training did him pretty well. I've never seen anything even close from a sanda fighter. They may compete in Muay Thai but show me one who has become a champion at the pro level.
[/off topic]

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 10:12 AM

And you see a lot of successful sanda full contact fighters doing it. so whats your point? the reason those fighters dont is because it was never even part of the training regime, yet it has always been part of chinese martial arts, who yes, do have successful full contact fighters. and some of these guys compete in muay thai, so your example of people who fight in muay thai is wrong. maybe not the thai guys, because they do thai style, but some chinese fighters who fight in thai rules do train stances.

and if you actually read any of my posts, you will see what i view as stance training, and static stance holding is just a small portion of stance training. never the less, you are wrong, you just choose to not acknoledge sanda, for some reason.

are you saying sanda is not a good full contact sport fighting venue?

They do it because it IS part of their training regime because of tradition and since they do get some benefit from it AND there is nothing counter-productive from it, why stop?
It really is just that simple sometimes.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 10:16 AM

As for sanda being a good full contact venue the rules a little skewed IMO

in what way specifically? pretty weak argument if you ask me. so the entire continent of china and their national full contact sport just isnt good enough for little old bacon for it to stand on its own? why dont you just go become the national champion then? everyone has even footing in a sanshou match. two fighters enter, one fighter wins. show me a boxer or a muay thai guy or a mma guy that has become a national champion in china. road goes both ways bud. and sorry your opionion of sanda doesnt really matter, its a viable sport and has been for a long time, straw mans argument trying to discredit chinas national full contact fighting sport, and you know it.

i dont follow muay thai but i'll go ahead and casually google some stuff to see what i can find to appease you.

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 10:26 AM

Sanda has an excellent rule set, if not for the chest guard and helmets, it would be superiour to MT.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 10:35 AM

there are even sanda matches that only use gloves :p

here is a good sanda fight with no protection beyond gloves.

but since liu hailong is chinese his skills dont count i guess....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCDKabF7YQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZYTU_iRok0&feature=related

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 10:40 AM

Lucas

09-28-2012, 10:44 AM

here is a great way to train horse stance:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2011-08-18-FrogLiftingThroughIntensive.jpg

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 11:02 AM

She's that close to giving herself a taco munch !

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 11:06 AM

http://www.lindalarue.com/members/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/StraddleSquat.gif

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 11:08 AM

http://2.cdn.tapcdn.com/images/thumbs/taps/2012/08/fit-girls-oh-yeah-still-hate-squats-7d7e9f1a-sz500x334-animate.jpg

Lucas

09-28-2012, 11:14 AM

oh boy what have i started

Bacon

09-28-2012, 12:04 PM

in what way specifically? pretty weak argument if you ask me. so the entire continent of china and their national full contact sport just isnt good enough for little old bacon for it to stand on its own? why dont you just go become the national champion then? everyone has even footing in a sanshou match. two fighters enter, one fighter wins. show me a boxer or a muay thai guy or a mma guy that has become a national champion in china. road goes both ways bud. and sorry your opionion of sanda doesnt really matter, its a viable sport and has been for a long time, straw mans argument trying to discredit chinas national full contact fighting sport, and you know it.

i dont follow muay thai but i'll go ahead and casually google some stuff to see what i can find to appease you.

From what I've seen most sanda competitions disallow hooks because striking with the palm side of the glove is prohibited. Most of the competitions use headgear and chest protectors and most seem to not allow elbows or knees.
As much as sanda does have skilled fighters on thing which would make me look on them more favorably if they didn't generally compete under such a weaksauce ruleset.

Add to that that it's not a first world country and I've never seen any sanda champs in first world fight leagues like muay Thai or more open rulesets like MMA... so the road doesn't go both ways and no, it's not good enough.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 12:47 PM

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2012, 12:55 PM

I agree with Lucus, it is silly to use MMA as a yard stick for all fighting sport combat systems.
How many boxers win in MMA? does that mean boxing is no good?
Sanda guys have fought MT guys and won some and lost some, under MT rules.
Sanda is a valid competitive format and should be viewed up there with other sport combat systems like Judo and wrestling and MT.
The fact that it is still very limited in geography is irrelevant.
MT, when it was first exposed to the world was the same way and typically limited to Thailand.
Sanda is a very new sport in terms of expansion, far newer than MMA for example.

Syn7

09-28-2012, 03:30 PM

Making an argument with me about it will get you nowhere.

Yeah, that's for sure. I've never seen you admit fault. Not once.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong here, I haven't read it all yet. But you do have this passive aggressive thing going on. You do see that, right? Call it what you want, confidence, arrogance, narcissism, whatever. It is what it is. And it is all up in your arguments every single time when talking to people you aren't pals with.

Anywhooo,

I find it hard to believe that anyone would do horse stance training and not squats. Why not both?

I can't think of very many weight sets or exercise 'devices' that could not be made crudely with wood, rope and rocks. What exactly is so new that it wasn't possible 300 years ago and horse stance was the only option?

SJ, I like what you said about pushing passed "the wall". I like going there. I like that point where you feel like you are only partially there, like half in pain and half somewhere else. Right at the edge.

Syn7

09-28-2012, 03:32 PM

http://www.lindalarue.com/members/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/StraddleSquat.gif

You don't like them flat mini booty's either huh!? S'all 'bout topside!!!

YouKnowWho

09-28-2012, 04:12 PM

When you twist bricks on your hands, or throw square bag (or KB), you can stay in horse stance. This way you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Bacon

09-28-2012, 04:13 PM

lol you're funny, like a broken record really, like its funny sometimes but usually you're pretty predictable. doesnt really matter what anyone tells you, you're far to closed minded and you obviously havnt done your research. there are plenty of examples of sanda holding its own in first world competitions including mma. i actually was going to list some but i don think i will now. i'll just let you live in your own little world where you can judge others from your lofty first world position, and ignore reality.
Look if you can back up your talk with actual examples I'm all for it. From viability of systems to training methodologies I'm all about empiricism.

you know where the 'first world' term comes from right? im pretty sure we are past the cold war. you consider china to not be first world, and yet it owns america and has her by the balls. so whats that say about america and china in terms of 'first world' status.
Maybe for you commies. It says there's a recession going on. But at present the US is still on top. But politics aside the UFC is an international Fight league whose competitors come from various countries. Quite simply they are the best in the world of combat sports. Even though someone like Cung Le was able to win in Strikeforce the competition in the UFC is on a totally different level and that's just between two orgs in the first world!

how many judo champions are there in 'first world' mma? does the fact that the only judo champions are champions of their sport of judo discredit judo?
Actually in a way it does. It shows that the techniques of wrestling are far more relevant. It's not to say judo is totally bad, just that there are better training methodologies.

sanda is completely viable form of sport combat, regardless of your personal opinion, or lack of education on the subject of sanda.
Oh it's perfectly viable as a combat sport... It's just never really produced anyone noteworthy other than Cung Le.

I agree with Lucus, it is silly to use MMA as a yard stick for all fighting sport combat systems.
Yes it is. It's the most open ruleset around which makes it the most fair way to judge them. The only fairer way would be the old Vale Tudo rules with no gloves and very few prohibitions.

How many boxers win in MMA? does that mean boxing is no good?
Actually boxers and folks who train boxing win a great deal. Out of any martial art if you want the best punching, you train boxing. It's simple.

Sanda guys have fought MT guys and won some and lost some, under MT rules.
Sanda is a valid competitive format and should be viewed up there with other sport combat systems like Judo and wrestling and MT.
The fact that it is still very limited in geography is irrelevant.
Judo is a different story as I said above. And as far as being up there with wrestling and muay Thai they are gold standards in the sport combat world and have proven themselves over and over in high level competitions. You can't say the same for sanda

MT, when it was first exposed to the world was the same way and typically limited to Thailand.
Sanda is a very new sport in terms of expansion, far newer than MMA for example.
Geographical limitation isn't important. If any of the high level sanda competitors wanted to enter into legitimate, high level pro fight circuits in first world countries they could do so.
Muay Thai is taken seriously because it's won top level competitions repeatedly. When sanda does the same it will be taken seriously. Again, this is not a "I hate sanda" thing. I think it's okay and I'd probably train in it given the chance. It's an evidence based assessment based on fighter achievement from various styles.

Bacon

09-28-2012, 04:14 PM

When you twist bricks on your hands, or throw square bag (or KB), you can stay in horse stance. This way you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

See now that's practical... But only insofar as it's useful for the kettlebell training?

YouKnowWho

09-28-2012, 04:25 PM

It's always better to kill 2 birds (or many birds) with 1 stone no matter what you do in your life. It's just too boring to stay in horse stance and doing nothing else. Why not just read a book (or watch TV) while you stay in horse stance?

Bacon

09-28-2012, 04:37 PM

Lucas

09-28-2012, 04:49 PM

Bacon

09-28-2012, 05:02 PM

legend fighting championship has a lot of solid fighters. if you look at the champion title holders in legends you will note that several over the years are sanda for their stand striking and grappling. there is also the art of war mma league. of course you will just use your west is better than east to devalue legends because by your warped sense nothing in asia can be quality or of good standard. i'm pretty sure you're racist.

http://www.failking.com/img1/3918-asian-facepalm_f.jpg

I'm Chinese... And this has nothing to do with race. It has to do with evidence.

Notice my comment from before about Cung Le. He was a Strikeforce champ but something like the UFC is on a totally different level. It's not east versus west. It's high level competition versus lower level competition. It just so happens the west draws the high level competitors.

So again it's just like judo... Yeah it's okay but it doesn't have any real winners in top level competition. Even bjj which was huge early on in mma is now much more limited in its use compared to wrestling.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:04 PM

According to the International Monetary Fund, Hong Kong is considered 'first world' to appease your lofty standards. So legends is the premier asian pacific mma circuit based in the first world.

and it does draw so called 'high level' competitors, internationally.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:05 PM

cung le is also at the end of his career and when he joined ufc he wasnt training full time due to acting, and is basically done as a pro fighter. i'm sure if he had made the transition 10 years ago he would have done quite well. but he doesnt even practice cma so he doesnt count. he simply just fought sanda rules.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:06 PM

I'm Chinese...

i believe you....:rolleyes:

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:07 PM

Bacon

09-28-2012, 05:16 PM

i like how you totally ignored legends. go look at every single fighter it has attracted, many are very solid atheletes, and 'top' fighers in their respective countries.

are you saying ufc is the only standard? like i said closed minded...got any idea how much politics are involved there?

I'm not saying it is the only standard. I'm saying it is the gold standard, top of the pile, big dog in the yard. Just like there are many grappling tournaments but there are a few which stand head and shoulders above the rest like NAGA, Grappler's Quest, and Abhu Dhabi.

cung le is also at the end of his career and when he joined ufc he wasnt training full time due to acting, and is basically done as a pro fighter. i'm sure if he had made the transition 10 years ago he would have done quite well. but he doesnt even practice cma so he doesnt count. he simply just fought sanda rules.

And yet he's the one who made it into the UFC...:rolleyes:

And back to our original discussion even if you took the folks who win in those lower level competitions they still use modern training methods. Horse stance training counts for jack.

Bacon

09-28-2012, 05:20 PM

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:28 PM

And yet he's the one who made it into the UFC...:rolleyes:

i'm not saying cung le isnt a good fighter, as a stand up fighter i would pit him in his prime against anyone the ufc has ever signed and he would have a really good chance of winning. he didnt start bjj until he was nearing the end of his career though.

however the reason he got in ufc is because of $$$ thats the only real reason. just look at how much he was making per fight vs everyone else that fought the same night.

but it just shows you havnt really honestly looked into it at all. zhang teiquan also made it to the ufc.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:31 PM

And it seems to me like you're viewing this in terms of diametrically opposed positions. I'm not saying sanda is bad. I'm simply saying it's not proven as good as its competition... Kinda like judo versus wrestling. Wrestling has proven better.... And I like judo.

depends on what you are talking about. i would put my money on a judoka to gain the sub on the ground over a wrestler.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:41 PM

And it seems to me like you're viewing this in terms of diametrically opposed positions. I'm not saying sanda is bad. I'm simply saying it's not proven as good as its competition... Kinda like judo versus wrestling. Wrestling has proven better.... And I like judo.

trolling aside, i do see what you're saying. i actually kind of agree with you to a degree, i just see that as coming to a close. sanda as an introductory competition staging ground is putting a lot of solid fighters in arenas that have very heavy competition.

Bacon

09-28-2012, 05:49 PM

depends on what you are talking about. i would put my money on a judoka to gain the sub on the ground over a wrestler.

Yeah but the wrestlers have been dominating because their takedowns are better and it's easier to hold from top than escape from bottom and easier to supplement good high percentage wrestling takedowns with a few high percentage subs than the other way around.

Bacon

09-28-2012, 05:51 PM

trolling aside, i do see what you're saying. i actually kind of agree with you to a degree, i just see that as coming to a close. sanda as an introductory competition staging ground is putting a lot of solid fighters in arenas that have very heavy competition.

No trolling to be had my friend. And I'm glad we've found some common ground here. And I do see you point. I guess it's hard being the little fish in the big pond. I'll give it time and we'll see what happens.

Lucas

09-28-2012, 05:55 PM

;) I must thank you though, it has been an increadibly slow day at the office this friday and this banter has made my day go a lot faster than it other wise would have.

I'm told there is a bacon shortage, so I guess it's best if I get on your good side.
:D

IronFist

09-28-2012, 07:16 PM

Yep, this thread has confirmed my greatest fears about this forum.

That people change the subject and or post pics of chicks when they can't defend their position with evidence?

The problem is, people take it personally.

Never take an argument personally.

The purpose of an argument is to arrive at the correct data. That way, both people have the correct information going forward.

It's like Bacon said:

Look if you can back up your talk with actual examples I'm all for it. From viability of systems to training methodologies I'm all about empiricism.

I'm happy when I get disproven. It means I no longer am basing my decisions off of incorrect data.

If it was about being right, I'd still be saying horse stance and Chinese dynamic tension sets are the best strength development tools there are, because for a long time I strongly believed that. And I could defend my position with BS and rhetoric (but I couldn't defend my position with science, although I could defend it with kung fu "science").

I was shown that I was mistaken, and rather than cry and moan about it, I adapted my mindset based on the evidence at hand. I mean, I could've kept on training that way for the sake of ego, but I decided it was more important to get stronger and be able to kick/punch harder, so I dropped the old style of training and started getting stronger.

You also have to keep in mind that some people online just troll for the sake of trolling.

There's also this underdog phenomenon in TCMA. While it's kind of beyond the scope of this thread, a lot of TCMA practitioners kind of get off on the "this secret training thing that isn't well known is superior to brute force barbarian training" thing. Kung fu hipsters or something. And they believe it. I know because I've been there. When they're doing those dynamic strength sets or whatever, they're getting the biggest ego boner they've ever had, and even people who might not otherwise have egos develop egos about their training. You see the same thing with people who think western science is bad and the secrets of health can be found by eating raw veggies. In another environment they might have different opinions, but there's that whole "everything mainstream is bad" mentality that just screws with your ego. You see a much more exaggerated version of the same thing in cults. "We have the truth; everyone else is wrong. Here, have some Kool Aid. If you believe you won't die." Guess what, medical science says that poison will kill you. Who do you believe?

It's kind of like when hipsters listen to crappy music. They're so convinced that it's good that they actually believe that it's good. Then they go to hipster concerts where a guy plays an entire song over one chord and talks over it rather than singing. And they cheer. Perhaps hipster musicians are the most successful trolls of all :eek:

Lucas

09-28-2012, 07:24 PM

Thats because they dont have the gonads to handle metal.

IronFist

09-28-2012, 10:04 PM

Thats because they dont have the gonads to handle metal.

Them's fightin' words.

Frost

09-29-2012, 01:21 AM

Let me first state that getting stronger is good, however I do not see a tremendous value for MA to have super strong legs. What I am getting at is "How much is too much"

Do you really need all that strength in your legs? Can't you get by with just MA exercises like Horse (whether static or moving etc)? What id them purpose to super leg strength?

I have gotten by without lifting weights. No squats (sorry bawang), no leg press.. nothing. I have won fights in grappling and stand up style... so whats the big deal?

I kick hard, I can pick 250 guys up and slam em ( I'm 5'3" and 155lbs). Help me understand why a MA needs to go beyond the Kwoon for leg strength.

ginosifu

because its not just about leg strength squatting builds whole body power and also explosiveness, and when technique and skill are close those two factors can be key (along with conditioning) in winning a fight.

Its like saying why do i need more than pad work and sparring for fitness? at the start you might not but when you are looking to compete and need an edge, or reach a level of conditioning where direct sports training can no longer help (the same thing with stance training) , you need to do something more
That you didnt need it is great for you but thats personal not empirical evidence, every single successful sports team and fighter employs a S and C coach, and they do this for a reason, and im not just talking just about pros here local amateurs looking for an edge do the same thing

Frost

09-29-2012, 01:31 AM

That people change the subject and or post pics of chicks when they can't defend their position with evidence?

The problem is, people take it personally.

Never take an argument personally.

The purpose of an argument is to arrive at the correct data. That way, both people have the correct information going forward.

It's like Bacon said:

I'm happy when I get disproven. It means I no longer am basing my decisions off of incorrect data.

If it was about being right, I'd still be saying horse stance and Chinese dynamic tension sets are the best strength development tools there are, because for a long time I strongly believed that. And I could defend my position with BS and rhetoric (but I couldn't defend my position with science, although I could defend it with kung fu "science").

I was shown that I was mistaken, and rather than cry and moan about it, I adapted my mindset based on the evidence at hand. I mean, I could've kept on training that way for the sake of ego, but I decided it was more important to get stronger and be able to kick/punch harder, so I dropped the old style of training and started getting stronger.

You also have to keep in mind that some people online just troll for the sake of trolling.

There's also this underdog phenomenon in TCMA. While it's kind of beyond the scope of this thread, a lot of TCMA practitioners kind of get off on the "this secret training thing that isn't well known is superior to brute force barbarian training" thing. Kung fu hipsters or something. And they believe it. I know because I've been there. When they're doing those dynamic strength sets or whatever, they're getting the biggest ego boner they've ever had, and even people who might not otherwise have egos develop egos about their training. You see the same thing with people who think western science is bad and the secrets of health can be found by eating raw veggies. In another environment they might have different opinions, but there's that whole "everything mainstream is bad" mentality that just screws with your ego. You see a much more exaggerated version of the same thing in cults. "We have the truth; everyone else is wrong. Here, have some Kool Aid. If you believe you won't die." Guess what, medical science says that poison will kill you. Who do you believe?

It's kind of like when hipsters listen to crappy music. They're so convinced that it's good that they actually believe that it's good. Then they go to hipster concerts where a guy plays an entire song over one chord and talks over it rather than singing. And they cheer. Perhaps hipster musicians are the most successful trolls of all :eek:

again nice post, and my experience mirrors this: i came to this forum as a reader in 2002 with a strong belief in static stance training, iron body and dynamic tension as THE way to go (ironic since my master had been using progressive overload in squats and bench, and things like heavy negatives) since the 70's.

Reading the like of ford perfect, sevenstar and knifefighter made me question and research this view, and led to my current thinking in regards to strength training. Actually i went down the whole functional route ala JC santana for a time, before meeting some pro S and C guys and having this view challenged, and also being lucky enough to train with some world class powerlifters.

Likewise i was into all the interval only stuff for a long time, before being challenged on another furm and educating myself on the values of the aerobic system, its not that i dont like being challenged or wont change my views, its just that nothing at the moment is changing my mind on this thread in regards to the value of the horse stance over other methods

omarthefish

09-29-2012, 07:57 AM

Sanda has an excellent rule set, if not for the chest guard and helmets, it would be superiour to MT.
They only use those in amateur comps. Just head on out to baidu.com and google 散打王

http://video.baidu.com/v?ct=301989888&rn=20&pn=0&db=0&s=25&word=%E6%95%A3%E6%89%93%E7%8E%8B&ie=utf-8

Notice the pronounced lack of any gear besides mouthguard, gloves and (presumably) a cup.
================================================== ========

From what I've seen most sanda competitions disallow hooks because striking with the palm side of the glove is prohibited. Most of the competitions use headgear and chest protectors and most seem to not allow elbows or knees.
Not allow hooks? What have you been smoking?

Headgear and chest protectors? See my note to Ronin. That's only for amateurs. Heck, even many amateur events don't have that. Just look at the Wulinfeng comps:

http://video.baidu.com/v?word=%CE%E4%C1%D6%B7%E7&ct=301989888&rn=20&pn=0&db=0&s=0&fbl=800&oq=wulinfeng&f=3&rsp=0

That is an amateur circuit. Amateur in that these guy have day jobs. There is prize money at the end of the year but the Wulinfeng circuit is not populated by the professional Sanda teams (of which there are many)

Elbows and knees? That's true but then the Sanda guys look at MT and chuckle at how they don't allow throws.

Add to that that it's not a first world country and I've never seen any sanda champs in first world fight leagues like muay Thai or more open rulesets like MMA... so the road doesn't go both ways and no, it's not good enough.

Might wanna go back and rewatch UFC 48.

wenshu

09-29-2012, 08:56 AM

The problem is the dogmatic attitude that a certain kind of training is best even when there are better ways of doing things as evidenced by the hundreds of fighters who do it. That's not appeal to authority. That's multiple case study from reliable sources who do this stuff for a living. Professionals do things based on the best data at hand. If a better training method comes along they snap it up. It's the difference between an evidence based way of doing things and sticking your head in the sand when something contradicts your viewpoint.

That's actually the working definition of appealing to authority.

Empiricism is worth **** all when you are just skewing not only the results but the question to fit your bias. No one said static stance training was the best at anything. The premise was there are benefits, I posted links to studies of isometric exercise done on both trained athletes and untrained people.

Of course you ignored them because Science is easier for you to understand when it is just an umbrella term used to appeal to the authority of empiricism with half truths and generalizations so you can hide your technical ineptitude instead of actually doing some cursory research. That would also mean not skewing the initial premise to fit your preconceived rebuttal; we get it you don't like Chinese martial arts.

Boxers and other pro fighters still do roadwork because it's good conditioning. If it was proven that there was another better way they'd do that instead... An attitude which tends to run contrary to that of most traditional martial artists and those who've been arguining for horse stance training.

I'm not aware of any legitimate shifu's who advocate training only horse stance all the time whether it is for strength, endurance or otherwise. I realize subtlety is not your strong suit but that's the implication of your argument.

wenshu

09-29-2012, 09:07 AM

That people change the subject and or post pics of chicks when they can't defend their position with evidence?

The problem is, people take it personally.

Never take an argument personally.

The purpose of an argument is to arrive at the correct data. That way, both people have the correct information going forward.

It's like Bacon said:

I'm happy when I get disproven. It means I no longer am basing my decisions off of incorrect data.

If it was about being right, I'd still be saying horse stance and Chinese dynamic tension sets are the best strength development tools there are, because for a long time I strongly believed that. And I could defend my position with BS and rhetoric (but I couldn't defend my position with science, although I could defend it with kung fu "science").

I was shown that I was mistaken, and rather than cry and moan about it, I adapted my mindset based on the evidence at hand. I mean, I could've kept on training that way for the sake of ego, but I decided it was more important to get stronger and be able to kick/punch harder, so I dropped the old style of training and started getting stronger.

You also have to keep in mind that some people online just troll for the sake of trolling.

There's also this underdog phenomenon in TCMA. While it's kind of beyond the scope of this thread, a lot of TCMA practitioners kind of get off on the "this secret training thing that isn't well known is superior to brute force barbarian training" thing. Kung fu hipsters or something. And they believe it. I know because I've been there. When they're doing those dynamic strength sets or whatever, they're getting the biggest ego boner they've ever had, and even people who might not otherwise have egos develop egos about their training. You see the same thing with people who think western science is bad and the secrets of health can be found by eating raw veggies. In another environment they might have different opinions, but there's that whole "everything mainstream is bad" mentality that just screws with your ego. You see a much more exaggerated version of the same thing in cults. "We have the truth; everyone else is wrong. Here, have some Kool Aid. If you believe you won't die." Guess what, medical science says that poison will kill you. Who do you believe?

It's kind of like when hipsters listen to crappy music. They're so convinced that it's good that they actually believe that it's good. Then they go to hipster concerts where a guy plays an entire song over one chord and talks over it rather than singing. And they cheer. Perhaps hipster musicians are the most successful trolls of all :eek:

So when are you actually going to post some science? Or are you just going to keep talking about it.

Every single post you go on and on about science but you never reference any actual science. Posts from other forums don't count as science; a shakey MS paint graph you drew yourself isn't science; getting your nose smashed by a pre teen before learning some common sense isn't science.

IronFist

09-29-2012, 09:22 AM

So when are you actually going to post some science? Or are you just going to keep talking about it.

Every single post you go on and on about science but you never reference any actual science. Posts from other forums don't count as science; a shakey MS paint graph you drew yourself isn't science;

What things that I've said do you need scientific proof to support?

getting your nose smashed by a pre teen before learning some common sense isn't science.

He was 16, and it was my eye. I was being weaned off of TCMA at the time and he was an MMA guy. What else would you expect to happen? :o And FYI I won that match with a key lock :D

tattooedmonk

09-29-2012, 11:56 AM

Does anyone have personal training, kinesiology , or physiology in their background, like a degree!? Obviously not with all the bs that's being posted here.

Iron fist - you are wrong about many things and have been shown where, but refuse to listen.

You are MMA guy now, do whatever , but maybe think about deflating that ego a bit.

Snipsky

09-29-2012, 12:35 PM

Since Ironfist claims to be an MMA guy now, it really makes me question why he comes here. its like the MMA world doesn't want him, so he has no other place to go but to this forum.

loser.

Sima Rong

09-29-2012, 12:46 PM

@Snipsky

I'm not sure if I look at things from Ironfist's perspective, but that comment was just rude.

wenshu

09-29-2012, 12:48 PM

What things that I've said do you need scientific proof to support?
http://i.imgur.com/G7Rxg.gif

Every. One.

I've got too much work to do to sift through your endlessly perseverating posts to point out your own assumptions, half assed generalizations and vague cop outs to you.

He was 16, and it was my eye. I was being weaned off of TCMA at the time and he was an MMA guy. What else would you expect to happen? :o And FYI I won that match with a key lock :D

You beat a child? The hell is wrong with you?

tattooedmonk

09-29-2012, 03:40 PM

It does say wannabe MMA guy.:eek:

bawang

09-29-2012, 04:24 PM

horse stance doesnt replace weight lifting. even horse stance training itself is supposed to be done with weights.

traditionally for leg gong northern kung fu trains both static strength and dynamic strength. horse stance with weights trains dynamic strength, squatting trains dynamic strength.

IronFist

09-29-2012, 06:18 PM

Does anyone have personal training, kinesiology , or physiology in their background, like a degree!? Obviously not with all the bs that's being posted here.

lol @ citing personal training as an authority. Do you know how easy it is to get a job as a personal trainer? Well, I should rephrase. It's not exactly easy, but usually you need a certification, which is easy. I worked in the industry for a while but left because it sucked. It's all about sales, not how much you know or getting results.

Iron fist - you are wrong about many things and have been shown where, but refuse to listen.

Where?

I can recall only a handful of things on this forum people have tried to prove me wrong about.

Like ten or eleven years ago a guy who was convinced that you didn't need to eat protein to build muscle because his "sifu didn't eat protein and was strong." He got so ****ed at me he told me his sifu (the one who doesn't eat protein) could beat me up. Great science there. Here's a nutritional biology book. Next?

Ten years ago there were a few people who believed in spot reduction. Sadly it wasn't the 50s anymore. Next?

Endless drones who think weightlifting makes you big, slow, and inflexible. As if it's so easy to accidentally gain muscle. A pic of a bodybuilder doing the splits disproves the inflexible part (http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/2011/11-685-01/bodybuilder-splits.jpg). And a quick look at the fastest sprinters on the planet will disprove that big muscles make you slow. And it's double lol because they always cite pro BBers as examples of weight lifters. Not like fit dudes who have gained an extra 20 or 30 pounds of muscle, but pros who are juiced to the gills and whose entire lives revolve around eating enough to maintain that much size. That's like saying dieting is bad because anorexics are unhealthy. Next?

From time to time, some people assert that they can protect themselves from strikes with qi rather than with the physical conditioning, physics, and stage tricks they are actually using. Hello? James Randi is calling for you.

And then in this thread some people said horse stance makes you stronger beyond the first 2 minutes or so, and that your hip flexors are strengthened from squatting down, both of which were incorrect. Not sure what the confusion is about hip flexors. They lift the knee against resistance. Squatting is the opposite of that, therefore they are antagonistic. It's like your triceps during biceps curls. Just because during the eccentric portion your biceps is lengthening doesn't mean your triceps is contracting because the biceps is still under tension. Does the hip flexor shorten during a squat? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's contracting or being used.

But sometimes hearing the truth goes against the views you've held for so long from the mystic knowledge your sifu has told you and you just can't accept it. That's ok. Exercise science will still be here when you decide you want to get stronger.

I love how the replies turn into personal insults when people can't support their claims. And you guys say I'm the one with the ego? lol.

bawang

09-29-2012, 06:36 PM

have you tried doing horse stance with a barbell on your back or weight vest?

IronFist

09-29-2012, 06:41 PM

have you tried doing horse stance with a barbell on your back or weight vest?

Horse stance is done with your hips tucked in. I would never do that with a barbell on my back since that's a horribly unstable position. Not to mention, having a barbell on your back changes your center of gravity and requires a different squatting motion than a horse stance.

Even so, it's still a static contraction. It's taxing your muscles more than without weights, but it's still static and therefore subject to all the limitations of static exercises.

For those of you playing along at home, doing a horse stance with added weight will increase your strength up to the 1-2 minute mark for the same reasons as explained in post 4. But it's not a substitute for squats or anything.

bawang

09-29-2012, 07:06 PM

i understand if someone is fat and lazy or is a poosy and scared of pain. but you are a strong young man, i dont know why you dont want to do it, unless you associate it with your former scammer teacher and it reminds you of bad times.

it doesnt matter whether its useful in modern times, its one of the core rituals of kung fu. you must do it, if you dont do it you dont train chinese martial arts.

it teaches you to endure pain and suffering. thats the spirit of the chinese people. the purpose of the exercise is to feel pain.

so you have a gym and you call it chinese martial arts, and you devote your life to chinese martial arts. but you dont want to do things that you have to do in chinese martial arts. then your life is wasted.

hskwarrior

09-29-2012, 07:49 PM

I've always stated my lineage practices a mid range horse stance. still, i will always practice our static and non static horse stance drills. Mainly because it was the one thing that helped me start regaining some sort of strength in my legs after being paralyzed.

I have been working on my legs for some time now which includes squats, and i still say they don't tire my legs out like when i practice my forms in a solid horse. i got new students from the gym who can't sit in the horse 15 secs. then i got other guys sitting 15 minutes at a time. they all agree that the horse stance is still a skill regardless of being static in one place.

everyone could give up their forms, but i won't. i won't stop static horse stance for beginners ever either. i see the worth in them. others don't. but thats the great part about being individual.

wenshu

09-29-2012, 09:23 PM

And then in this thread some people said horse stance makes you stronger beyond the first 2 minutes or so, and that your hip flexors are strengthened from squatting down, both of which were incorrect. Not sure what the confusion is about hip flexors. They lift the knee against resistance. Squatting is the opposite of that, therefore they are antagonistic. It's like your triceps during biceps curls. Just because during the eccentric portion your biceps is lengthening doesn't mean your triceps is contracting because the biceps is still under tension. Does the hip flexor shorten during a squat? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's contracting or being used.

Disproving something David Jameson wrote is roughly equivalent to a grown man barely winning an MMA match against a teenager. In either case it isn't exactly something to boast about.

IronFist

09-30-2012, 07:36 AM

i understand if someone is fat and lazy or is a poosy and scared of pain. but you are a strong young man, i dont know why you dont want to do it, unless you associate it with your former scammer teacher and it reminds you of bad times.

As I mentioned earlier, I do occasionally do horse stance, but it's mostly just to change things up, or because I'm bored. It makes up less than 1% of my leg training. I probably do it 4 or 5 times per year. It is better than nothing.

The purposes that horse stance training serves are not really relevant to my training goals. That's why. Same reason I don't do distance running.

it doesnt matter whether its useful in modern times, its one of the core rituals of kung fu. you must do it, if you dont do it you dont train chinese martial arts.

I'll agree with that.

David Jamieson

10-01-2012, 08:18 AM

Disproving something David Jameson wrote is roughly equivalent to a grown man barely winning an MMA match against a teenager. In either case it isn't exactly something to boast about.

Nice, and you have disproved what?

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 08:23 AM

So, let us summerize:
Most all will agree with:

Horse stance training has its benefits.
These are physical ones and "mental toughness" ones.
There are better methods of producing the strength and endurance attributes developed by stance training.
Doing stance training is part of the tradition of doing Kung fu and that in of itself has value for the kung fu practitioner.
Women with nice asses are awesome.

Agreed?

David Jamieson

10-01-2012, 08:37 AM

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 08:42 AM

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 09:38 AM

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 09:43 AM

David Jamieson

10-01-2012, 11:34 AM

It like how he took the first paragraph from wiki and ran with it. The fact is the hip flexors are a group of muscles and not a specific muscle and have various actions and will change according to the movement. The hip flexors not only lift the leg toward the torso but also lower the torso to the legs, ie horse stance. And are used to stabilize the whole abdominal core... Blah blah blah

That is correct and you are the first one to say it. I am not surprised quite frankly. lol

Yes, hip flexors are a series of muscles and not one set or group. (some work in tandem with another set too, these are called abductors, but that's another thing)

But my argument was more about the development of the posterior chain and it's connection to having a decent solid stance which translates out to a lot of things such as rooting, power, strength etc.

It would seem to me after being on this site for... well, a long time, that more often than not it is those people who don't practice tcma or have minimal exposure to it that are the greatest critics of it.

Always odd, but expected now. It is a curiosity in that regards. Haters are gonna hate. Let them. :p

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 11:40 AM

That is correct and you are the first one to say it. I am not surprised quite frankly. lol

Yes, hip flexors are a series of muscles and not one set or group. (some work in tandem with another set too, these are called abductors, but that's another thing)

But my argument was more about the development of the posterior chain and it's connection to having a decent solid stance which translates out to a lot of things such as rooting, power, strength etc.

It would seem to me after being on this site for... well, a long time, that more often than not it is those people who don't practice tcma or have minimal exposure to it that are the greatest critics of it.

Always odd, but expected now. It is a curiosity in that regards. Haters are gonna hate. Let them. :p

Well you said that the horse stances strenghtens/develops the hip flexors and according to the link you posted, they don't.
The hip flexors, IF they are too tight, will effect the squat ( and horse stance of course) BUT the exercises they recommend for the hip flexors are NOT Horse stance like".
SO I am not sure where you think that article supports your view that the horse stance strengths the hip flexors...

The squat is a fundamental, lower body exercise that works quadriceps, hamstrings and glute muscles. The hip flexors are a group of muscles on the front of your pelvis. All squats involve the hip flexor muscles, although not as primary movers. To perform a squat safely, your hip flexor muscles must have adequate flexibility.
Squat Movement

Stand with your feet a little wider than shoulder-width apart. Push your butt back and bend your knees as if you are going to sit down. Continue lowering yourself towards the floor. Keep your back straight and your weight back on your heels. Don't shift your weight forward on the balls of your feet. Lower until your thighs are parallel to the ground. Press through your heels to stand back up. You can hold a barbell or dumbbells for added resistance.

Hip Flexor Muscles

Your hip flexors, or iliopsoas muscles, are located on the front of your pelvic bone. The iliacus muscle originates on your ilum, which is the top of your pelvic bone, and attaches on your femur, or thigh bone, at the other end. The psoas muscle originates on your spinal column and ends at your femur. These muscles are primary involved in hip flexion, moving your thigh toward your pelvic bone or moving your pelvic forward.
Significance

Although the hip flexor muscles are not primary movers during the squat exercise, they are an important consideration. If your hip flexor muscles are too tight, as you descend deeper into your squat, this inflexibility may pull your torso forward and flex your low back. As you stand up from a squat, if your hip flexors cannot completely extend due to inflexibility, your low back may hyperextend. Either of these situations can result in low back discomfort and pain.
Stretches

In order to reduce your risk of injury during the squat exercise, you should focus on stretching your hip flexor muscles regularly. This involves pushing your thigh back away from your pelvic bone. Kneel on a mat on your right knee. Set your left foot flat on the floor with your left thigh parallel to the floor. Push your hips forward shifting your weight onto your left leg. Keep your back straight and don't bend at the waist.

The article makes it clear that the hip flexors are NOT primary movers and that they are developed during the squatting motion BUT that IF they are inflexible, they will hinder correct squatting form.

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 11:48 AM

Bacon

10-01-2012, 11:50 AM

Horse stance training has its benefits.
(snip)
There are better methods of producing the strength and endurance attributes developed by stance training.
Exactly. So if exercise B works better than exercise A at doing the same things...

These are physical ones and "mental toughness" ones.
Mental toughness can be better developed through sparring and physical exercises which will have much more benefit.

Doing stance training is part of the tradition of doing Kung fu and that in of itself has value for the kung fu practitioner.
Oh god. Heaven save us all from those following tradition. That is the worst excuse you could have come up with for doing horse stances. "We do it because the people before us did" is not an excuse. It's never an excuse for any behaviour. It's avoiding justifying it through reason and logic.

Women with nice asses are awesome.
Only but I'll agree with :D

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 11:54 AM

Well you said that the horse stances strenghtens/develops the hip flexors and according to the link you posted, they don't.
The hip flexors, IF they are too tight, will effect the squat ( and horse stance of course) BUT the exercises they recommend for the hip flexors are NOT Horse stance like".
SO I am not sure where you think that article supports your view that the horse stance strengths the hip flexors...

The article makes it clear that the hip flexors are NOT primary movers and that they are developed during the squatting motion BUT that IF they are inflexible, they will hinder correct squatting form.This is true...however your body will naturally recruit them, if needed, to compensate in movement and/ or body posture....

This gets into joint force couplings , length tesion relationships etc....balh blah blah

Its called autonomic inhibition.

hskwarrior

10-01-2012, 11:55 AM

Oh god. Heaven save us all from those following tradition. That is the worst excuse you could have come up with for doing horse stances. "We do it because the people before us did" is not an excuse. It's never an excuse for any behaviour. It's avoiding justifying it through reason and logic.

you don't need heaven to save you. either you practice the horse or you don't. those that do know why they do. those that don't believe they know why they don't. but are usually the ones who can't do the horse longer than 15 secs. :D

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 11:58 AM

Adductors and abductors...? levitators and rotators...? muscle penetation?? now you want to get crazy...how about the muscle action spectrum ..?:eek::p:D:cool:

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 12:00 PM

you don't need heaven to save you. either you practice the horse or you don't. those that do know why they do. those that don't believe they know why they don't. but are usually the ones who can't do the horse longer than 15 secs. :Dright you are ... :D

or even show proper horse stance form!:eek::cool:

hskwarrior

10-01-2012, 12:11 PM

muscle action spectrum

The quantum activation spectrumization of the musclization situation~

Lucas

10-01-2012, 12:15 PM

People seem to forget weapons in the equation. A big draw to CMA for me was the weapons training in itself. Some of the most powerful strikes with a staff end in a proper horse or bow stance. When learning how to use various weapons, you do actually spend a good deal of time in a deep horse stance, as well as other stances.

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 12:15 PM

The quantum activation spectrumization of the musclization situation~hilarious...perfect!

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 12:16 PM

People seem to forget weapons in the equation. A big draw to CMA for me was the weapons training in itself. Some of the most powerful strikes with a staff end in a proper horse or bow stance. When learning how to use long weapons, you do actually spend a good deal of time in a horse stance.definately. or should if you arent.

bawang

10-01-2012, 12:18 PM

Mental toughness can be better developed through sparring and physical exercises which will have much more benefit.

easy words from a wing chun poosy

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 12:23 PM

HAHAHAHAAHAH you kill me.it must be lunch time.

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 12:34 PM

This is true...however your body will naturally recruit them, if needed, to compensate in movement and/ or body posture....

This gets into joint force couplings , length tesion relationships etc....balh blah blah

Its called autonomic inhibition.

Sure, YET to develop them and strength them, you do NOT do anything like a horse stance or even a typical squat, as that live strong article states and as the links on a previous post I posted show.

If you look up exercises done to strengthen and develop hip flexors, you will not find a horse stance or a squat among them, but you will find:
Body Weight

Leg Raises
Hanging Leg Raise
with ab straps
Straight Leg
Incline Leg Raise
arms on pads
Incline Straight Leg Raise
arms on pads
Lying Leg Raise
Alternating
on floor
Lying Straight Leg Raise
Alternating
Seated Leg Raise
Vertical Leg Raise
on parallel bars
Straight Leg
Jack-knife on Ball
Roman Chair Sit-up
Scissor Kick
Wheel
Jack-Knife
Rollout
Pike

IronFist

10-01-2012, 12:41 PM

Here, please read the second paragraph, or the whole article if you like.

i can post these all day? Maybe some guys can just actually you know...read up about it instead of just scanning the internet and glancing at things in teh hope they can prove someone wrong or something?

Anyway, here, http://www.livestrong.com/article/444773-hip-flexor-squat/

read it.

Then you can come back and deny it all and go on about how I don't know anything and you think I'm this or that.

I will then find another reputable coach site that will continue to tell your the same thing over and over again.

Now, you can read these articles and get what you want out of them, or you can hold to the ideas that you have which appear to be coming from a void.

Wow.

You're 2 for 2 at posting links that disprove what you're trying to prove.

First you say squatting works the hip flexors and you post a link to a definition of hip flexors which states that they raise the knee. This makes them antagonistic to the squat because the knee is not raising against force when you squat; the opposite is happening.

Then you post a link which specifically states says:

Significance

Although the hip flexor muscles are not primary movers during the squat exercise, they are an important consideration. If your hip flexor muscles are too tight, as you descend deeper into your squat, this inflexibility may pull your torso forward and flex your low back. As you stand up from a squat, if your hip flexors cannot completely extend due to inflexibility, your low back may hyperextend. Either of these situations can result in low back discomfort and pain.

So if they're too tight or too loose, it messes with your flexibility? Sure, that's true.

But as I said, they're not really doing anything when you squat because they are antagonistic to the movement.

Or, as Sanjuro Ronin posted:

The article makes it clear that the hip flexors are NOT primary movers and that they are developed during the squatting motion BUT that IF they are inflexible, they will hinder correct squatting form.

It's like your triceps during biceps curls. They are antagonistic to the movement. Sure, if you have some tightness or something it might impact your ability to biceps curl, but what the triceps do (extend the elbow against resistance) is the opposite of what is happening when you do biceps curls.

What the hip flexors do (raise the knee against resistance) is the opposite of what is happening when you squat.

IronFist

10-01-2012, 12:42 PM

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 12:45 PM

Honestly, I think you guys are just talking "pass" each other since you guys are in agreement about the value of horse stance training but are just in disagreement in regards to the DEGREE of value, which I think is just you guys being argumentative twats.
:D

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 01:46 PM

Sure, YET to develop them and strength them, you do NOT do anything like a horse stance or even a typical squat, as that live strong article states and as the links on a previous post I posted show.

If you look up exercises done to strengthen and develop hip flexors, you will not find a horse stance or a squat among them, but you will find:
Body Weight

Leg Raises
Hanging Leg Raise
with ab straps
Straight Leg
Incline Leg Raise
arms on pads
Incline Straight Leg Raise
arms on pads Lying Leg Raise
Alternating
on floor
Lying Straight Leg Raise
Alternating
Seated Leg Raise
Vertical Leg Raise
on parallel bars
Straight Leg
Jack-knife on Ball
Roman Chair Sit-up
Scissor Kick
Wheel
Jack-Knife
Rollout
PikeThese are all dynamic ( involve movement). We are talking about a static exercise( no movement) . These muscles are being isolated ...hence the term isometric.

Just because you can use those exercises doesnt mean you cant develope them utilizing other exercises. the body as a whole works together so these muscles have to be recruited during this exercise whether they are moving or not. How do you think your body is being held up?

it a misconception to think and believe you are not working muscles if you arent moving them.

Most people dont know what a horse stance is outside of martial arts. .

Go out doors, take some courses, stop being narrowminded and stop taking things out of context off of the net.

:eek::rolleyes::D:cool:

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 01:57 PM

These are all dynamic ( involve movement). We are talking about a static exercise( no movement) . These musceles are being isolated ...hence the term isometric.

Just because you can use those exercises doesnt mean you cant develope them utilizing other exercises. the body as a whole works together so these muscles have to be recruited during this exercise whether they are moving or not. How do you think your body is being held up?

Most people dont know what a horse stance is outside of martial arts. .

Go out doors, take some courses, stop being narrowminded and stop taking things out of context off of the net.

:eek::rolleyes::D:cool:

Dude, insults, really?
Cause calling anyone narrow minded because they don't agree with you is gonna somehow lend validity to your view?
Some of us have been in the "body" business for a long time ok?
Some have even take kinesiology course and even been certified as physical trainers:eek:
Yes, the hip flexors are involved isometically in a horse stance and guess what, so are your toes if you do it barefooted.
When a muscle is designed for something, just because it is involved in something else, doesn't mean that it is being developed.
The triceps are involved in a curling action, but you are NOT developing them by doing an isometic static curl.

What the hip flexors are getting from a DEEP horse stance is SOME flexibility work.

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 02:01 PM

here:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/123013-isometric-hip-exercises/

Isometric exercises, also called static resistance exercises, require muscle contractions without any joint movement. For example, when you stand still, certain muscles must contract continually to keep you from falling over. There are several isometric exercises you can perform for the hip muscles. Although these exercises can benefit anyone, they are especially helpful if you suffer from arthritis in your hip joints or are recovering from a hip injury, because, without any joint motion, they are less likely to cause pain.
Isometric Hip Abduction

Hip abduction causes your legs to move sideways away from your body. The isometric hip abduction exercise strengthens the muscles that cause this movement without any actual joint motion taking place. To perform the exercise, lie on either side with your legs stacked on top of each other. Have a partner place her hands on top of your upper leg. Then try to abduct your hip, but tell your partner to resist so your leg does not move. Hold for five seconds or more and then repeat on the opposite side.
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Isometric Hip Adduction

Hip adduction is the opposite movement of abduction--your legs move sideways toward the center of your body. Perform the isometric hip adduction exercise just like isometric hip abduction, but move your lower leg in front of your top leg and have your partner resist your effort to lift your bottom leg straight upward.
Isometric Hip Flexion

Hip flexion occurs when you bend forward at the waist or raise your knees toward your chest. The isometric hip flexion exercise strengthens the muscles that facilitate this motion. To perform the exercise, lie on your back with your knees bent and feet elevated so your torso and thighs form a 90-degree angle. Then place your hands on your knees and try to pull your knees toward your chest, but resist with your hands so your legs do not actually move. Hold for at least five seconds and then relax.
Isometric Hip Extension

The isometric hip extension exercise builds the muscles that extend your hip joints. This is the opposite movement of hip flexion. To do the exercise, start in the same position as isometric hip flexion, but place your feet against a wall. Have a partner lie face down behind you and place his hands on your shoulders. Then press into the wall with your feet and have your partner provide resistance so your body does not slide away from the wall. Hold for five seconds or more and then relax.
Wall Sits

Wall sits exercise your hips from a position of deep hip flexion. To perform wall sits, stand with your feet about 2 feet from a wall and lean back against it. Then bend your knees and allow your back to slide down the wall until your thighs are parallel to the ground. Hold for at least five seconds for each repetition.

Note the hip flexion isometric exercise.

and:
http://ultrafitnesstraining.com/?page_id=797

sanjuro_ronin

10-01-2012, 02:32 PM

Wall sits exercise your hips from a position of deep hip flexion. To perform wall sits, stand with your feet about 2 feet from a wall and lean back against it. Then bend your knees and allow your back to slide down the wall until your thighs are parallel to the ground. Hold for at least five seconds for each repetition.

Wall sits probably come the closest to a "horse stance" BUT because you are not "settled in" over your feet but, because of the wall, pushing into the wall, you do get some hip flexion in this particular exercise, still not a primary one mind you, you will feel it more on your quads, but still more hip flexion activity than the standard horse stance.

tattooedmonk

10-01-2012, 03:46 PM

Dude, insults, really?
Cause calling anyone narrow minded because they don't agree with you is gonna somehow lend validity to your view?
Some of us have been in the "body" business for a long time ok?
Some have even take kinesiology course and even been certified as physical trainers:eek:
Yes, the hip flexors are involved isometically in a horse stance and guess what, so are your toes if you do it barefooted.
When a muscle is designed for something, just because it is involved in something else, doesn't mean that it is being developed.
The triceps are involved in a curling action, but you are NOT developing them by doing an isometic static curl.

What the hip flexors are getting from a DEEP horse stance is SOME flexibility work.If you were insulted then maybe I hit a nerve .

Not my intent. It wasnt directed at you, but at the whole attitude and resistance to scientific facts...along with a great deal of experience

.think what you want, done trying to correct people on the internet.

Its science plain and simple, I didnt come up with the the scientfic rationale and methods for training. I just study and follow it if it proven correct and effective.