Wing Chun Trapping: Is It realistic?

[Yoshiyahu]

Can you utilize trapping techniques in real life fight or match?

Meaning will trapping actually be effective against a resistant opponent?

If so what is more useful...Trapping defensively or offensively?

[Vajramusti]

Can you utilize trapping techniques in real life fight or match?

Meaning will trapping actually be effective against a resistant opponent?

If so what is more useful...Trapping defensively or offensively?
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Depends.....

[JPinAZ]

If so what is more useful...Trapping defensively or offensively?

As usual, I don't even know what you're talking about. Can you define the difference between 'Trapping defensively' and 'trapping offensively'? If a rabbit gets caught in a snare, is that offensive or defensive? I say neither.
What also might be good is to define what you actually mean by 'trapping'.

Even without the definitions, this question IMO is very technique oriented way of thinking and starts moving away from what WCK is about (more of a JKD line of questioning).
In application, I don't really think about 'trapping'. Sure, it happens, but not because I'm out to 'trap' anyone, but more because of occupation of space, leverage control, gate theory, 5-line theory etc and the opponent 'trapped' themselves due to distortions of their own.
(of course there are strategies that lend themselves more toward trapping someone's arms up, but it's neither offensive or defensive - they just 'are')

[EternalSpring]

IMO, "trapping" is a misleading term in the sense that it makes it seem like Ving Tsun aims to trap people's hands, as if we're out there looking hard for these opportunities. the way I understand it, "trapping" is something that occurs naturally from sensitivity.

I only realized how misleading the term was when I felt some "Wing Chun Trapping" as taught to some JKDers, The "trapping" i see people present often is a multi-step process similar to a step by step instruction on doing a grappling move. What Ving Tsun does is simply use the standard Ving Tsun techniques we've always been using + sensitivity.

[imperialtaichi]

In application, I don't really think about 'trapping'. Sure, it happens, but not because I'm out to 'trap' anyone, but more because of occupation of space, leverage control, gate theory, 5-line theory etc and the opponent 'trapped' themselves due to distortions of their own.

Nicely put.

In KL22, we focus on occupying space, 2nd and 3rd gates, and entering from the side (so called pin-sun). We don't think trapping, we think control.

Of course, there are people out there who teaches "hand trapping" games, with elaborate flowery techniques, which will not work in real life for 1M years.

[LoneTiger108]

Can you utilize trapping techniques in real life fight or match?

Meaning will trapping actually be effective against a resistant opponent?

If so what is more useful...Trapping defensively or offensively?

Man... this forum is getting worse every day.

Just look at the words you are using to describe a specific Wing Chun strategy and then look at what you are asking :o

Anyone here who has not experienced a 'trap' hasn't learnt Wing Chun IMHO because most, if not all of the Sifus that came out of HK and China all had an array of traps at their disposal and taught thease as combinations or whatever.

If I trap you it means I am predicting your next move, and you can not see it. Like a chess game. And yes, sometimes this is just not realistic at all in the heat of a fight but that is what you train for! To make sure you CAN do what you need to do in that moment. Prepare yourself both physically and mentally to DO Wing Chun and not collapse into nothingness and use survival mode.

In fact I could say that if you are a 'resisting' opponent I would lead you into trap after trap, using your own strength against yourself time after time until you wear yourself out and give up (defensive - non violent end game). Or I may just use one trap and then finish you off if I'm in a bad mood that day (offensive - very violent end game!)

What you have to be careful of are the traps left by past Sifus that they were not even aware of themselves lol!! The 'if you do this I do that' mentality has no place in Wing Chun. It should be (IMHO) 'I make you do this so I can do that more easily!'

That's the essence of good trapping ;)

[k gledhill]

Can you utilize trapping techniques in real life fight or match?

Meaning will trapping actually be effective against a resistant opponent?

If so what is more useful...Trapping defensively or offensively?

You're kidding, right ?

[Bacon]

You can't think of it as offense or defense. It's all done with the goal of hitting your opponent. If my opponent is striking at me and I execute po chung from pak sau is it defensive or offensive? Neither. It's just me finding a way to gain an advantage over my opponent. The only thing which is really defensive is blocking in isolation where they strike and I cover.

This might help you understand better though.

From sifu chuck o'neill's website:


Wing Chun is great for trapping, but I always hear from some that it doesn't work or they can't get into trapping range. I think that there is a couple of issues when looking at trapping, mindset, timing, & distance.

Mindset - If you limit yourself into thinking that there is only one way to trap, then you may be missing many opportunities to trap. Or your understanding of it's use, may also lead to your frustrations. Lets start by defining what a "trap" is.

What is a trap - Well, a trap as I define it, is anytime I can limit the movement of my opponent (either his arm, leg, body, etc). This is a trap. When looking at a trap, consider them either in two terms "simple" or "complex" traps. A simple trap is limiting one limb with one limb, a complex trap is when you use one of your limbs to trap (or limit) two or more of his limbs.

How a trap can be used - When using a trap, don't think of a trap necessarily as a 'submission' type technique. Think of a trap as part of a solution to bigger problem. If my objective is to strike someone, but their limbs are in the way, by pinning or limiting the movement of a hand out of the way, I can facility my strike. The other thing to consider is that a trap doesn't stay permanently. In the ideal world it would, but reality is you may only have a trap for 1 or 2 seconds at a time.

How to get punched in the head while doing a trap - There are a few way to fail at trapping and get yourself punched in the head. Here are a couple of ways:

Forcing the Trap: You are trying to force a trap to happen, and as such you are not listening to what is really going on. This would be the equivilant of having a conversation with someone, but both of you are talk at the same time, and also talking about two totally different subjects.

Chasing the Trap: You saw the opportunity but it came a moment to late so you chase after it. This is much like chasing an armbar in BJJ or chasing a weapon disarm in Kali. If you focus on chasing the trap, you will surely miss it, and get a hit at the same time. In Wing Chun there is a saying, "Chase the center not the hand." In this case, when you chase the trap, you are chasing the hands.

Trying to Keep the Trap: This is as bad as chasing the trap. If you managed to trap the hands, you've placed a few hits in, but now your opponent has started to find a way out of the trap, and you now start to either Force the Trap or Chase the Trap. In Wing Chun there is another saying, "Accept what comes, Follow what goes, loss of contact strike." So if you're trap starts to fall apart, accept it, and continue to flow with what is happening. Just be happy that you were able to get the trap in the first place.

Wrong Distance: So you see the possibility of a trap, but you are either too close or too far from your opponent. Trapping occurs at a very specific range. It is located between Boxing and Stand up grappling, somewhere around the clinch but not quite. If you are too far, you're using the wrong tool at the moment you should be kicking or boxing, if you are too close, you should be looking to clinch or grapple.

[Happy Tiger]

There is a hundred times more 'trapping', by what ever ones definition, in grappling (attritional combat) than in striking....in real life.
Cross hand trapping while in standard striking range is perhaps the biggest joke of all VT. and that is coming from a huge fan of complex trapping.

[YouKnowWho]

I would like to look at trapping as part of the entering strategy. Since you have to pass your opponent's kicking range first, you have to deal with leg trapping first (I don't know why people don't talk about leg trapping here). When you can run your shin bone on your opponent's leg, you will know that your opponent will not be able to kick you at that moment. When you try to enter your opponent's punching range, if you can push on your opponent's leading arm elbow to jam his back arm, you know that he cannot punch you at that moment. You then can do whatever that you intend to do after that.

So trapping is realistic. If you don't want to get hit when you enter, you better apply trapping on your way in. If you are not ready to "enter", you should not pay too much attention on "trapping'.

[-N-]

(I don't know why people don't talk about leg trapping here). When you can run your shin bone on your opponent's leg, you will know that your opponent will not be able to kick you at that moment.

YKW, you should start a technical thread on that topic in the general forum. Most people I see ignore that method, or execute poorly.

[wingchunIan]

There is a hundred times more 'trapping', by what ever ones definition, in grappling (attritional combat) than in striking....in real life.
Cross hand trapping while in standard striking range is perhaps the biggest joke of all VT. and that is coming from a huge fan of complex trapping.

Got to disagree I'm afraid. This is a basic misconception of trapping IMHO. Trapping is an immobilisation or restriction of movement of a limb or limbs for a tiny increment of time. Traps are different to grappling pins and holds and in almost 100% of occassions are easy to escape from once the brain realises what has happened (of course in the intervening time the opponent should be hit at least once). If you train with good energy and against non wing chun strikers the "cross hand trap" that you describe above is incredibly easy and common.

[Happy Tiger]

Got to disagree I'm afraid. This is a basic misconception of trapping IMHO. Trapping is an immobilisation or restriction of movement of a limb or limbs for a tiny increment of time. Traps are different to grappling pins and holds and in almost 100% of occassions are easy to escape from once the brain realises what has happened (of course in the intervening time the opponent should be hit at least once). If you train with good energy and against non wing chun strikers the "cross hand trap" that you describe above is incredibly easy and common.I see where you're coming from. Simple immobilisations and \or 'stuffing' and brief elbow control can be a good 'trap'. Gotta say though, in free fighting and even sparring we don't see too much complex trapping. In security roles I've used VT trapping skills with a downed opponent to help create or advance a hold. Trapping through striking assumes a lot about your opponent and on the fly enters you into a chess game if not super savy

[Happy Tiger]

Ha ha!! This is meant for you to have a laugh, so laugh!!!:):):rolleyes::D
The 'Sifu Randy Williams "Stupid Trap!"':)
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/tomshowoff.jpg

[Yoshiyahu]

Very Good I love how you explained trapping as defensive strategy...Very true indeed. Also I like how you mentioned entry techniques and closing the gap with in your explanation making trapping techniques both offensive and defensive principles.



I would like to look at trapping as part of the entering strategy. Since you have to pass your opponent's kicking range first, you have to deal with leg trapping first (I don't know why people don't talk about leg trapping here). When you can run your shin bone on your opponent's leg, you will know that your opponent will not be able to kick you at that moment. When you try to enter your opponent's punching range, if you can push on your opponent's leading arm elbow to jam his back arm, you know that he cannot punch you at that moment. You then can do whatever that you intend to do after that.

So trapping is realistic. If you don't want to get hit when you enter, you better apply trapping on your way in. If you are not ready to "enter", you should not pay too much attention on "trapping'.

At first i thought you were being insulting. But as i read further on. I enjoyed what you had said an for the most part undoubtble agree with you. Alot of WC out there doesn't teach the idealogy of stand up grappling and traps. As for the array of traps. Only a few are really needed. The most basic and simple traps are best. No need for elaborate step by step flowery techniques. If you can't trap your opponent with one move or two then just hit them. Why struggle to trap. In most cases traps happen instantanously an when it does, take that opportunity to strike undetered. in other cases you can predict what your opponent is about to do an lead him into a trap. But both cases depends on the skill level of the one your fighting!


Man... this forum is getting worse every day.

Just look at the words you are using to describe a specific Wing Chun strategy and then look at what you are asking :o

Anyone here who has not experienced a 'trap' hasn't learnt Wing Chun IMHO because most, if not all of the Sifus that came out of HK and China all had an array of traps at their disposal and taught thease as combinations or whatever.

If I trap you it means I am predicting your next move, and you can not see it. Like a chess game. And yes, sometimes this is just not realistic at all in the heat of a fight but that is what you train for! To make sure you CAN do what you need to do in that moment. Prepare yourself both physically and mentally to DO Wing Chun and not collapse into nothingness and use survival mode.

In fact I could say that if you are a 'resisting' opponent I would lead you into trap after trap, using your own strength against yourself time after time until you wear yourself out and give up (defensive - non violent end game). Or I may just use one trap and then finish you off if I'm in a bad mood that day (offensive - very violent end game!)

What you have to be careful of are the traps left by past Sifus that they were not even aware of themselves lol!! The 'if you do this I do that' mentality has no place in Wing Chun. It should be (IMHO) 'I make you do this so I can do that more easily!'

That's the essence of good trapping ;)

I don't particulary care for a cross hand trap. Because it temporarily limits your ability to attack. When i say cross hand. I mean your hand is cross over giving you limited striking ability. I believe many basic techniques from flanking your opponent or shifting their centerline are also forms of trap. The pak sau and lan sau and the jut sau are also temporary ways to immobilize your opponent. There are ways to to cross your opponents arms up. But i look at trapping as a way to apply your Chi Sau Grappling in real time. When ever your opponent starts to trying to grab you. Trapping hands should come into play because he is no longer striking. He is trying to manipulate your body in order to strike you freely. So trapping is a defensive way to gain control over your opponents intentions an reclaim the dominant posistion!


Got to disagree I'm afraid. This is a basic misconception of trapping IMHO. Trapping is an immobilisation or restriction of movement of a limb or limbs for a tiny increment of time. Traps are different to grappling pins and holds and in almost 100% of occassions are easy to escape from once the brain realises what has happened (of course in the intervening time the opponent should be hit at least once). If you train with good energy and against non wing chun strikers the "cross hand trap" that you describe above is incredibly easy and common.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used and still use traps all the time, just not against strikes.
Typically in a "clinch" situation or when moving in as John describes above.

[Yoshiyahu]

i get that...its a good way to set them up for a strike while they trying to trap you!


I used and still use traps all the time, just not against strikes.
Typically in a "clinch" situation or when moving in as John describes above.