Pak Sau - Defensive or Offensive?

[Yoshiyahu]

Does Pak Sau work better for you defensively or offensively?


Pak Sao Doesn't Work Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe0OMkvvz3k)


Pak Sao Does Work Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlSRp3b7Ns4)

[JPinAZ]

Again, neither defensive or offensive - Simply put, Pak sau just another hand shape used to occupy space using a specific energetic and structure. It works best when it's used with the correct structure, wrist energy, contact/reference point, loi lau hoi sung, range, etc.

As always, your question is far to generic. What kind of pak sau? What's the situation? In HFY we have many different 'flavors' of pak sau, but they are all based on the situation, facing leverage and range (5-line apk sau, centerline pak sau, receiving, guarding, jamming, etc - all with different energetics and focus)

[WC1277]

Does Pak Sau work better for you defensively or offensively?


Pak Sao Doesn't Work Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe0OMkvvz3k)


Pak Sao Does Work Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlSRp3b7Ns4)

Pak sau in all its variations can do both but not in the way you think. Similarly to what Jpinaz said, 'it simply occupies a space'. No one, ever, should try to block with Pak sau in and of itself in application. They will get hit and most likely it will also be chasing. Now, on the other hand Pak sau can be used to 'assist' in blocking within chi sau. For instance, force comes in on lead hand, you redirect with tan sau rotating your triangle always forward, your back hand comes forward and balances it out with a Pak 'position'. You essentially end up in a tan Pak position with Pak being forward. Of course, if you're worth your marbles, you're going to wait until he tries to move again and then switch the tan to a punch only using static control with the pak, hence a real Pak punch, not these ridiculous slapping paks you see everywhere. The order is important though for good structure. You never do two motions at the same time unless attacking even though most think you can. It's just the hands rotating between forward and back with the timing being the key. Even an attack, that does have two simultaneous motions still always has to be rotating. But to answer the question, ultimately Pak is a clearing motion that in application should always be with an attack. If you Pak with any kind of force outside of your body turning, you're doing Pak sau wrong. Period.

[EternalSpring]

Does Pak Sau work better for you defensively or offensively?


Tbh, I think most if not all of the Ving Tsun techniques work well, at least for me, both offensively and defensively.

imo,

_insert Ving Tsun technique here_ + punch (da) = offensive technique

so Pak-Da is already a great application of pak offensively and defensively in one motion. Yea, I know it's a very simple example, but in the end, the techniques work best when offense and defense are intertwined/combined

[Bacon]

There is no defensive in my mind when it comes to pak sau. Pak sau is just a method to allow me to take better position to hit my opponent. It's just like slipping a jab. Blocking only would be defensive but countering is not defensive in my mind and that's what pak sau is for.

[imperialtaichi]

Again, neither defensive or offensive - Simply put, Pak sau just another hand shape used to occupy space using a specific energetic and structure. It works best when it's used with the correct structure, wrist energy, contact/reference point, loi lau hoi sung, range, etc.

Hmmm, don't want to be seen with always agreeing with the same person but this is absolutely spot on.

Ah, except that in my mind everything is offensive (forum rules, we have to disagree with something ;) ). There is no "Pak" as such.

[imperialtaichi]

so Pak-Da is already a great application of pak offensively and defensively in one motion. Yea, I know it's a very simple example, but in the end, the techniques work best when offense and defense are intertwined/combined

Offense is my defense (ideally). My so-called Pak would be an attack on it's own. The free hand would also be attacking. So would the free leg if available.

[wingchunIan]

Pak sau in all its variations can do both but not in the way you think. Similarly to what Jpinaz said, 'it simply occupies a space'. No one, ever, should try to block with Pak sau in and of itself in application. They will get hit and most likely it will also be chasing. Now, on the other hand Pak sau can be used to 'assist' in blocking within chi sau. For instance, force comes in on lead hand, you redirect with tan sau rotating your triangle always forward, your back hand comes forward and balances it out with a Pak 'position'. You essentially end up in a tan Pak position with Pak being forward. Of course, if you're worth your marbles, you're going to wait until he tries to move again and then switch the tan to a punch only using static control with the pak, hence a real Pak punch, not these ridiculous slapping paks you see everywhere. The order is important though for good structure. You never do two motions at the same time unless attacking even though most think you can. It's just the hands rotating between forward and back with the timing being the key. Even an attack, that does have two simultaneous motions still always has to be rotating. But to answer the question, ultimately Pak is a clearing motion that in application should always be with an attack. If you Pak with any kind of force outside of your body turning, you're doing Pak sau wrong. Period.
tan pak position? are you suggesting one hand in tan and the other in pak? If so its an anathema to me. When the tan does its job the other hand should be seeking to hit, if it then covers as pak the tan should become a strike. To hold two hands in the position inferred is to miss at least one opportunity to strike and needlessly ties up two hands. Maybe I've misunderstood your post.....

[JPinAZ]

Hmmm, don't want to be seen with always agreeing with the same person but this is absolutely spot on.

Ah, except that in my mind everything is offensive (forum rules, we have to disagree with something ;) ). There is no "Pak" as such.

Haha, even a broken watch is correct twice a day.. maybe I just got lucky :)

OR, it just comes down to forgetting about WC technique, or things like 'we do it this way' and looking at it from a concept/principle POV. Then it becomes pretty simple and a lot more people would be agreeing...

[WC1277]

tan pak position? are you suggesting one hand in tan and the other in pak? If so its an anathema to me. When the tan does its job the other hand should be seeking to hit, if it then covers as pak the tan should become a strike. To hold two hands in the position inferred is to miss at least one opportunity to strike and needlessly ties up two hands. Maybe I've misunderstood your post.....

No, what I am suggesting is that Pak can be used to "assist" in a block and with half beat timing allows switching to a much more powerful structure and attack. A tan punch is not nearly as powerful with the turn as a Pak punch square on to the opponent would be. I was also illustrating that not only does every hand assist the other but Pak is not a slapping motion like so many do but a static control position 9 times out of 10

[Yoshiyahu]

No, what I am suggesting is that Pak can be used to "assist" in a block and with half beat timing allows switching to a much more powerful structure and attack. A tan punch is not nearly as powerful with the turn as a Pak punch square on to the opponent would be. I was also illustrating that not only does every hand assist the other but Pak is not a slapping motion like so many do but a static control position 9 times out of 10

So what does the word Pak mean?

why is there no slapping or whipping force in the wing chun hands?

[Bacon]

So what does the word Pak mean?

why is there no slapping or whipping force in the wing chun hands?

Because if you slap the hand out of the way it gives them momentum to work with. For example if you slap against a straight punch I can use the power you've given me to turn it into a couple different types of hooks.

[-N-]

So what does the word Pak mean?

Pak means to make a sharp hit/tap/clap/pat type of action.

[LoneTiger108]

Because if you slap the hand out of the way it gives them momentum to work with. For example if you slap against a straight punch I can use the power you've given me to turn it into a couple different types of hooks.

Only if the 'slapper' has no clue what they're doing dude...

Let me put it this way, if you have a well drilled paksau it hurts like hell and on most occasions specific target areas are concentrated on so the whole structure is shocked, not just the point of contact.

But that is all it is designed to do... as Pink Floyd once sang, deliver a "short, sharp, shock" ;)

[Bacon]

Only if the 'slapper' has no clue what they're doing dude...
No, but thank you for playing.


Let me put it this way, if you have a well drilled paksau it hurts like hell and on most occasions specific target areas are concentrated on so the whole structure is shocked, not just the point of contact.
The goal of pak sau is redirection through structure. Your pak sau can hurt as much as you want it still won't matter to me or any one else who has built up a pain tolerance from fighting.
Through pak sau you change the angle of a punch just enough that it won't hit you and you can counter punch. Any more is wasteful and will give your opponent momentum to turn into a hook punch.
As for "shocking the structure" it's a minor redirection in trajectory so you can hit them. Chase the body, not the hands.

And even if you're doing pak sau on the elbow, you pin the elbow. It's never a slap.

[JPinAZ]

All this talk about how a technique works is a bit silly to me. IMO, it doesn't really matter the shape of the hand or the technique, it's the concepts and principles that dictate the outcome

As for pak against a straight leading to the puncher rolling around into a hook, this is true if you are only thinking of the 'technique' and/or chasing hands. Pak Sau, as most other WC short range guarding hands (pak/wu/chum/laan/gum), should always be supported with proper struture, used to 'occupy space' vs. attacking only at a limb, and used with FORWARD ENERGY with proper understanding of gate/box theories.

Once these things are in place, the pak (or any other 'techniqe') should be covering the space on center and should have resulted in causing the initial jab to go off line, in essence turning the attack. If done right, after the 'pak' motion is completed, your hand will have hit and slid/bounced past the contact point on the attackers arm usually ending in fore-arm to fore-arm contact. This creates a timing delay/distortion for the attacker, so the hook will have to travel further and around the structure you've created to be effective. At this point, the space will be eaten up by the WC practitioner long before a hook can land because of the position and fwd intent.

Anyone that paks palm to attakers fore-arm to 'defend' and isn't even in range to hit without a lot of footowork is chasing hands IMO - and missing what WC is all about.

[Happy Tiger]

Sure is nice, though, when you smack a Pak right on the sweet spot of the fore-arm. The 'center of percussion' as they say in baseball. Very satisfying! :)

[JPinAZ]

Sure is nice, though, when you smack a Pak right on the sweet spot of the for-arm. The 'center of percussion' as they say in baseball. Very satisfying! :)

haha, agreed! I get bruises on my arms all the time from my training partners doing this very thing as well! They just don't let the technique 'stay there' palm-to-arm when they do it.
What I'm getting at is, this is the result/by-product of a much larger goal, and shouldn't be the sole focus of a 'technique' :)

[Eric_H]

All this talk about how a technique works is a bit silly to me. IMO, it doesn't really matter the shape of the hand or the technique, it's the concepts and principles that dictate the outcome

As for pak against a straight leading to the puncher rolling around into a hook, this is true if you are only thinking of the 'technique' and/or chasing hands. Pak Sau, as most other WC short range guarding hands (pak/wu/chum/laan/gum), should always be supported with proper struture, used to 'occupy space' vs. attacking only at a limb, and used with FORWARD ENERGY with proper understanding of gate/box theories.



A lot of this is also dictated by how well you play your footwork.

For most of our short range hands, Hung Fa Yi uses a footwork concept called "Kihn Kwoon Jan" which roughly translates to "the secret in the box" or the trick that makes something work.

Doing pak sao in the long range or as a transition into short range isn't a great idea without some decent bridge tracing ability (Chi Kiu) and will lead to you getting eaten alive by a boxer or CLF guy IMO.

[desertwingchun2]

A lot of this is also dictated by how well you play your footwork.

For most of our short range hands, Hung Fa Yi uses a footwork concept called "Kihn Kwoon Jan" which roughly translates to "the secret in the box" or the trick that makes something work.

Doing pak sao in the long range or as a transition into short range isn't a great idea without some decent bridge tracing ability (Chi Kiu) and will lead to you getting eaten alive by a boxer or CLF guy IMO.

Can I get a "Like" button up in here?

[GlennR]

All this talk about how a technique works is a bit silly to me. IMO, it doesn't really matter the shape of the hand or the technique, it's the concepts and principles that dictate the outcome

As for pak against a straight leading to the puncher rolling around into a hook, this is true if you are only thinking of the 'technique' and/or chasing hands. Pak Sau, as most other WC short range guarding hands (pak/wu/chum/laan/gum), should always be supported with proper struture, used to 'occupy space' vs. attacking only at a limb, and used with FORWARD ENERGY with proper understanding of gate/box theories.

Once these things are in place, the pak (or any other 'techniqe') should be covering the space on center and should have resulted in causing the initial jab to go off line, in essence turning the attack. If done right, after the 'pak' motion is completed, your hand will have hit and slid/bounced past the contact point on the attackers arm usually ending in fore-arm to fore-arm contact. This creates a timing delay/distortion for the attacker, so the hook will have to travel further and around the structure you've created to be effective. At this point, the space will be eaten up by the WC practitioner long before a hook can land because of the position and fwd intent.

Anyone that paks palm to attakers fore-arm to 'defend' and isn't even in range to hit without a lot of footowork is chasing hands IMO - and missing what WC is all about.

Good post.
Its about eating up the distance and keeping in that WC range

[JPinAZ]

Good post.
Its about eating up the distance and keeping in that WC range

Thanks. I forgot to mention was the use of pak sau at longer ranges (it's not always a short range 'technique'). This is something I think Eric_H is spot on with in his post!

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post Eric E demostrating the varies range you can utilize pak with!