Early Tanglangquan in Taiwan

[mooyingmantis]

The spread of Tanglangquan to Taiwan

In 1949, after losing control of mainland China to the People's Republic of China in the Chinese civil war, the Republic Of China government under the Kuomingtang leadership of Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan.

Tanglangquan practitioners who fled to Taiwan at this time include:

Wang Songting: qixing tanglangquan
Gao Daosheng: chuanquan tanglangquan
Li Kunshan: meihua tanglangquan
Zhang Dekui: meihua tanglangquan
Wei Xiaotang: babu tanglangquan
Zhang Xiansan: liuhe tanglangquan

[Tainan Mantis]

Hao Gensheng
Luan Xingfu

A student of Zhao Zhuxi-forget the name- studied under Zhao (Chu Chuck Kai) before he moved to Vietnam.

A student of Jiang Hualong-Jia Jingting

There were others, but not famous now, Taiwan did a historical survey on all the Tang Lang masters.

[MightyB]

an interesting topic to research would be to note how the move to Taiwan influenced how Tang Lang is practiced there in comparison to Mainland and HK.

Did the heavy influence of JMA and TKD in Taiwan change how Tang Lang is practiced, or how about the prevalence of the internal arts like the Yang and Sun styles of Tai Chi etc. influence Taiwanese Tang Lang?

[mooyingmantis]

Hao Gensheng
Luan Xingfu

A student of Zhao Zhuxi-forget the name- studied under Zhao (Chu Chuck Kai) before he moved to Vietnam.

A student of Jiang Hualong-Jia Jingting

There were others, but not famous now, Taiwan did a historical survey on all the Tang Lang masters.

Kevin,
Thanks for the added information!

[Jimbo]

an interesting topic to research would be to note how the move to Taiwan influenced how Tang Lang is practiced there in comparison to Mainland and HK.

Did the heavy influence of JMA and TKD in Taiwan change how Tang Lang is practiced, or how about the prevalence of the internal arts like the Yang and Sun styles of Tai Chi etc. influence Taiwanese Tang Lang?

I noticed in Taiwan that many of the students of Wu Tan Institute who practiced Tang Lang did so with some Baji flavor.

As far as TKD or JMA influence, I do know some of the students I trained with had experience in karate and especially TKD. The only influence I saw was in the way they would perform some of their kicks. For example, in the side kick they would turn their hips into a full TKD/karate-style side kick, with bladed foot, unlike the traditional Chinese-style side kick. Having come from such a background myself, so did I. And of course when they sparred, their kicks would be TKD.

I saw more TKD influence among a number of southern stylists, who trained Hung Gar, and also something called 'Taiwan Chuan', which looked to me like a mixture of Fujian Crane and TKD/karate.

[Jimbo]

I was told that Wei Xiaotang originally fled to Korea, but that while there he was forced to kill a Japanese gangster in self-defense. So he had to flee again to Taiwan and settled there.

[EarthDragon]

from what I have experienced so far, Taiwanese mantis is less stiff and has a greater emphasis on full body power generation than Hong Kong mantis.

this.... from my learnigns from my shifu, Shyun Kwon Long (Wei's student) was from xing yi and ba duan influence that was added after Ba bu left the mainland.

Jimbo,
you are correct, here is the story told in our family.... Wei Hsiao Tang practiced very hard and was a very dedicated student. He managed to develop phenomenal strength and incredible speed. So much so that he come to be known as "Thunder Hands". Wei Hsiao Tang was chief instructor in the Chinese Military. He was in charge of instructing the 25th Regiment in fighting techniques. After serving in China, Wei Hsiao Tang went to Korea where he was an instructor to their military. It was here that a famous incident occurred. It happened that one day while Wei Hsiao Tang was walking through town he came across a fellow Chinese, who was working as a merchant, involved in a dispute. As Wei Hsiao Tang came upon the scene a great many Koreans had begun beating the Chinese merchant. The situation was out of hand and Wei Hsiao Tang immediately intervened and asked for everyone to stop. Attacking with sticks and different manner of weapons, the mob would not quiet down. They soon turned on Wei Hsiao Tang, angered by his interference. The next day all of the of the papers told of the mob scene in which Wei Hsiao Tang drove off 50 men, injuring most and killing 4. The Korean government immediately set out to capture Wei Hsiao Tang. If it were not for friends in the Chinese underground, he might not of been able to escape. Back in China, hiding under an assumed name, then moved to Tai pei and was a cook in teh high school there for many years........

[mooyingmantis]

Great info everyone!

[mooyingmantis]

Here is one of the differences explained to me between Mainland TCMA and Taiwanese CMA:

Mainland TCMA was practiced by the common man whose art was developed for protecting himself, his family and his village.

The Republic of China conscripted as many famous martial arts instructors as they could and turned them into soldiers or trainers of soldiers. Those who refused to work for the ROC, if caught, were killed.

Thus, the ROC military had the benefit of training under some of the best martial arts instructors found in China and the military arts became much stronger.

When the ROC fled to Taiwan after the civil war, the martial arts and martial artists that went with them were of the highest caliber and their arts blossomed.

Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport.

I was told that some practitioners of Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan were able to continue to teach their art freely on the Mainland, because they supported the Communist government rather than the Republic of China. So, they were not seen as a threat.

[B.Tunks]

In short - you got told wrong.

[nubianmantis]

In short - you got told wrong.

Hey, Mooyingmantis. You got it very wrong. Chinese's are Chinese Period. There are Many Real Masters in Taiwan and Mainland China Past and Present;Who have lived to Ripe Old Ages.please Mooying mantis do some research and then post it, not hear say. thanks. Be Well. NM.

[mooyingmantis]

In short - you got told wrong.

Your glib comments really aren't worth posting. Stick to FACTS. If you disagree with me, post facts that disprove what I wrote.


There are Many Real Masters in Taiwan and Mainland China Past and Present;Who have lived to Ripe Old Ages.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say there are no real masters in Taiwan or China. If I didn't think there were, I wouldn't be flying to China next year to train.

What I did say was that the People's Republic of China produced something very different from traditional kung fu.


please Mooying mantis do some research and then post it, not hear say.

My research was based on Taiwanese history as explained to me by a local University History instructor.

[nubianmantis]

Greetings Family. I shall Repeat it,Mooyingmantis You were told wrong. Fact,One there is public and private kung-fu in china and taiwan. Fact,Two Master's Huo Chi Kwang,Chang Tung Sheng,Liu Yun Chiao are all from the Mainland China;however relocated to taiwan to live and teach high level's of Boxing to serious students. I meet a couple of them in chicago many years ago. also my from sifu George ling hu is form mainland china via taiwan. Always remember mooyingmantis you are a westerner trying to train with chinese,so it will many years before you see real boxing if at All. you must have the real keys to the arts. That's the Facts. be well. NM.:cool:

[B.Tunks]

>Your glib comments really aren't worth posting. Stick to FACTS. If you disagree with me, post facts that disprove what I wrote.

The comment wasn’t glib. I was trying to avoid wasting time going into depth over such a ridiculous issue and taking the obvious bait. You want to talk about FACTS??? Don’t get me started. There is so much misinformation in this thread it’s not funny…

>Did you even read my post? I didn't say there are no real masters in Taiwan or China. If I didn't think there were, I wouldn't be flying to China next year to train.

Not answering for NM but I did read your post. Maybe you should go tell Zhou Zhendong your new insights into Tanglang in China and see what he thinks.

>What I did say was that the People's Republic of China produced something very different from traditional kung fu.

Actually what you said was:

>Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport.

You then shared the following gem:

>I was told that some practitioners of Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan were able to continue to teach their art freely on the Mainland, because they supported the Communist government rather than the Republic of China. So, they were not seen as a threat.

All complete garbage. I don’t care who your source is - pretty much every statement in your post was naïve, simplistic, a gross generalisation and so out of date that it was laughable. Try coming into the 90’s and after you’re comfortable there for a couple of years maybe then have a crack at the 2000’s. You are regurgitating inflammatory propaganda. You are the one always talking about the mess of politics in Tanglang and then you come out with this nonsense. Hypocrisy. How do you expect to be received when you go to train in PRC next year? What face will you present to Zhou Zhendong?

My suggestion is that you save your money because you will only find quasi-martial arts/gymnastic material taught by Communist puppets.

[xiao yao]

I can vouch the kung fu in mainland China is definitely the real thing. Perhaps its not taught in such a systematic way as classes are run in the west, often the teacher puts it to you to understand and apply the concepts in application and sparring.

Richard, from what Ive seen and encountered, you are partly right in that some masters have flashed up their mantis for performance and competition. Zhou Shifu told me once in a competition, another master from Qingdao came up to him and told him his kung fu is too old and doesnt look good for competitions, he should flash it up a bit!

Then again, I heard of people in Taiwan who added some tornado kicks to the end of luan jie to make it look better (dont quote me on that though, its just hearsay)

I dont think its a black and white as that. If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK.

[Tainan Mantis]

Then again, I heard of people in Taiwan who added some tornado kicks to the end of luan jie to make it look better (dont quote me on that though, its just hearsay)

You can see video of Su Kunming (Su Yuzhang) doing Luanjie where he hads some kicks at the end, filmed in 1964 in Taiwan.

There is also a video I have seen (which I don't have) of Wang Songting doing Luanjie. It seems as though he did not pass it on to anyone who later became a teacher. That was part of what you might call his closed -door curriculum.

It is straight Luanjie, with tucked in elbows and hunched over back.

[B.Tunks]

Wang Songting was also not Qixing Tanglang.

[mooyingmantis]

Fact,One there is public and private kung-fu in china and taiwan. Fact,Two Master's Huo Chi Kwang,Chang Tung Sheng,Liu Yun Chiao are all from the Mainland China;however relocated to taiwan to live and teach high level's of Boxing to serious students.

I don't disagree with you on this. I can't understand why this isn't sinking in. BTW, at least two of the masters you mentioned relocated because of their ties with the ROC.



Always remember mooyingmantis you are a westerner trying to train with chinese,so it will many years before you see real boxing if at All. you must have the real keys to the arts. That's the Facts. be well. NM.:cool:

Have seen it and have trained it for over forty years bro. This is not my first dealings with the "Chinese". LOL!


Actually what you said was:

>Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport.

I don't think Zhou Zhendong will have a problem with this statement, since this was exactly what he saw and experienced.

Xiaoyao conducted an interview with Master Zhou in which Master Zhou described having to train secretly at night to avoid persecution by the Communists.

I don't think Will will mind me quoting it here:

Shifu, I understand you continued your training into the Cultural Revolution, was that possible? Didn’t people get persecuted for that?

Actually my master was a quiet man. He didn’t participate in public events or political groups, so he avoided persecution. Other masters however were persecuted severely and often sent to the countryside to do forced labour (seen to the right). I used to visit my master after he finished work on the weekends and we would train in the darkness of night, making sure nobody watched out the windows. Then, I would go away and train by myself in a quiet place in the hills to avoid being seen.


Wang Songting was also not Qixing Tanglang.

According to the Mantis Cave, Wang trained in Meihua Tanglangquan, Qixing Tanglangquan and Changquan. I initially listed him as qixing tanglangquan to show that most major styles of tanglangquan were represented in Taiwan.

[B.Tunks]

Tanglang did not become extinct under the communists, even during the CR. Yes, many masters died but most did not. Many were sent to prison or forced labour camps but their minds were not erased and many continued to teach and train. The biggest tangible loss (apart from life) was quan pu and weapons and even there, elements of the oldest Tanglang quan pu survived in China.

In the CR. There were perpetrators and victims on all sides. It is simply not accurate to label an entire family as being in one position or the other. Everyone was effected. People still use events or alleged events in the CR to tarnish people's name today. It's up to those that were there to deal with, not us. I think the comments were irresponsible. You can make up your own mind though, after you go to China and talk to the people who actually lived through it.

Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan's books. Almost all Meihua or Meihua derivatives along with one stream of Liuhe. Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.

[xiao yao]

Zhou Shifu had told me that before the 1960s, there were tons of kung fu schools in Yantai. He said the atmosphere was very different, a lot more challenges going on between schools and rivalries. The students too trained harder back then. In his eyes, the 1930s were the golden age for kung fu.

Now there is a revival. People are exchanging ideas more and opening schools again. but, the problem still lies in the countries policy of economic development driving everything. it leaves little space for people to restore culture. young people have so much pressure from study, adults are expected to work hard at their jobs and raise their family. people often ask me why i learn kung fu, when i say just coz i like it, they dont seem to understand i just do something coz i like it, they think i should have my future or my family in mind......

brendan, would you say that seems accurate from what you have seen too?

[xiao yao]

also, i agree you cant label a family strictly pro or anti government. hao bin was persecuted in the cultural revolution.

most chinese people who are party members nowadays are purely for their own ends. its easier to get things done. like if you want a promotion at work, or if they wanted to start an association or school. its just a form of social networking, nobody cares about marxism.

[mooyingmantis]

Tanglang did not become extinct under the communists, even during the CR. Yes, many masters died but most did not. Many were sent to prison or forced labour camps but their minds were not erased and many continued to teach and train. The biggest tangible loss (apart from life) was quan pu and weapons and even there, elements of the oldest Tanglang quan pu survived in China.

I agree and did not say anything to the contrary.


It is simply not accurate to label an entire family as being in one position or the other. Everyone was effected. People still use events or alleged events in the CR to tarnish people's name today. It's up to those that were there to deal with, not us.

This is a good point.


Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan's books. Almost all Meihua or Meihua derivatives along with one stream of Liuhe. Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.

Thank you for clearing this up! These comments are so much more informative than: "In short - you got told wrong."

Does anyone know what styles of mantis were taught at the Qingdao Guoshuguan?

[Tainan Mantis]

Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan's books.
Based on my research I have found this to be true. But, it implies that there was the study of Mantis from books in Taiwan which was later passed off as having already been a part of the Taiwan Mantis scene.

Decades ago even Li Kunshan was labeled 7*Mantis.

There is nothing that I have seen from Wang Songting's curriculum to call him 7*, nor Gao Daosheng Longfist Tang Lang.

[YouKnowWho]

You can see video of Su Kunming (Su Yuzhang) doing Luanjie where he hads some kicks at the end, filmed in 1964 in Taiwan.

You must be one of the old timers that still remember Su Kunming was Su Yuzhang original name before he changed it.

I once demo Luanjie and Da Baji in the 2nd 济南Jinan tournament when Su was there. He walked to me and said, "You just did my forms".

I also met 孙德龙(Sun De Lon) in that tournament. I like the beginning part of his Luanjie. I had changed my Luanjie since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPSnyhZfR1E

[mooyingmantis]

Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.

Brendan,
I was just reading your interview with Arnold Buenviaje at your website. In the interview, Arnold listed a few Taiwanese tanglangquan instructors. I found it interesting that he referred to Wang Songting as a Qixing Tanglang instructor.

There is also Liang Ji Ci who moved to the Philippines, where he taught Tanglang. His Tanglang came from different Taiwan masters like Liuhe Tanglang Zhang Xiang Shan, Babu Tanglang Wei Xiao Tang, Taiji Tanglang Liu Zu Yuan and Qixing Tanglang Wang Song Ting...

[B.Tunks]

WST was known as QX (by some) only in Taiwan, just as Li Kunshan was known as QX only in Taiwan. WST is not listed in any official Qixing genealogy. He did know some QXTL, the same material common to others in Qingdao Guoshuguan.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is Tang Lang as done in Taiwan today. The action starts at around 00:50.
Shifu Shi Zhengzhong, now 65, also demonstates 2nd Zhai Yao.

But, the version of Mei Hua Lu, the second form shown looks pretty solid, Marcio from Brasil.

Reportagem Peng Lai Brasil Mestre Shi Zheng Zhong - TV Taiwan - 蓬萊巴西梅花螳螂拳 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlFAQNm6xZc&list=UUfKFlGBjtLAFHlIRgv210CA&index=1&feature=plcp)

[mooyingmantis]

WST was known as QX (by some) only in Taiwan, just as Li Kunshan was known as QX only in Taiwan. WST is not listed in any official Qixing genealogy. He did know some QXTL, the same material common to others in Qingdao Guoshuguan.

Interesting! I wonder how everything got so confused there?


Here is Tang Lang as done in Taiwan today. The action starts at around 00:50.
Shifu Shi Zhengzhong, now 65, also demonstates 2nd Zhai Yao.

But, the version of Mei Hua Lu, the second form shown looks pretty solid, Marcio from Brasil.

Reportagem Peng Lai Brasil Mestre Shi Zheng Zhong - TV Taiwan - 蓬萊巴西梅花螳螂拳 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlFAQNm6xZc&list=UUfKFlGBjtLAFHlIRgv210CA&index=1&feature=plcp)

Kevin,

Thanks for the input!

The meihualu seems to have a very unique signature. Very different from how I have seen it performed by Hong Kong and Mainland mantis families.

Since you have trained in both Taiwan and the Mainland, I think you probably have the most expertise on the subject of mantis in both locations. What differences and similarities do you see between how mantis is taught or played in each location?

[MightyB]

First of all, all of us will have bias based on where or how we've learned Mantis. With that being said, here's my biased opinion:

From watching the videos and basing it on my experience... Taiwanese Mantis focus more on the sun yin (sp) or body movement of the swallow than both Mainland and HK. Side note, the mantis theory for effective technique using bo fat, sun yin, sau fat (sp?) (foot movement plus body movement control coordinates with hand technique). IMO - they hyper focus on it because they seem to sway too much for my personal taste (not saying it's a good or bad thing, just my bias on where I've learned remember).

The mainland does have more lean into it than HK. It's not the same sway or lean as Taiwanese. Mainland leans into it similar to how Wu Style Tai Chi leans into a technique or strike. Although they certainly have more waist leaning than HK, I don't feel that theirs is extra or wasted movement, it's just to put a little more oomph into the technique, but very focused on delivering the oomf.

HK isn't stiff if done correctly, but like my perception of Xing Yi or Chen Style Tai Chi, all power starts at the ground and is generated through torque in the waste. There is no leaning, but the torque is tremendous allowing a 130lbs man to hit you with 130lbs of their weight. Therefore an HK practitioner needs the strong legs and loose of hips. If they don't develop those attributes, then they'll be stiff and less powerful.

[Tainan Mantis]

Since you have trained in both Taiwan and the Mainland, I think you probably have the most expertise on the subject of mantis in both locations.

Mighty B gave a good assessment.
There are many things not 'online' but his points are good.

[Tainan Mantis]

You must be one of the old timers that still remember Su Kunming was Su Yuzhang original name before he changed it.

It happened before my time, I didn't get to Tainan until 1989, but I have heard all the stories and I have his books from before his training with Gao Daosheng and subsequent travel overseas.

Thanks for posting the clip.

[Crushing Step]

If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK.

This likely has a lot to do with national pride. Taiwan didn't conform to communist China, and HK was an English colony. In my own travels to China, I heard the national pride in nearly every conversation with my translator/ Chinese teacher.

[xiao yao]

after 6 years of living here, i dont believe their "national pride" is anything more than a surface act

[mantid1]

It seems this post has gone from "these are masters that went to Taiwan"....into a comparison of Mainland and Taiwan mantis.

Many use "forms" for this comparison. This may be similar to comparing the tea pots but never really tasting of the tea for substance.

We all know that the health benefits are one of the most important reasons for doing CMA.....and for the Chinese, preserving the culture may be at the top of the list. For these reasons I would agree comparing forms or some two person drills will be just fine.

But some people take the "Martial" part more seriously than others. You cant do a comparison of this by showing people doing some nice forms.

The only way to make this comparison would be to watch them fight (full contact, not trying to kill each other) against someone from their own style and then someone who does not have "formal" training. After this have them fight someone from the opposing style....same time in training, weight, height and similar skill.

For the last fight my guess would be, if they are both effective fighters, there would not be much difference in "style". Talking about mantis here......not a mantis guy fighting someone from a style that only kicks to the head and does not grab....wouldnt be much of a compaison.

You could do the same comparison with different lines of Hung Ga, Choy li fut, TKD...bottom line is they would have to fight.

Now all we need is someone who teaches mainland Mantis and someone who teaches a mantis system out of Taiwan.

In closing, I would like to say that I have had a few students who turned out to be fairly good fighters. But, I have to admit that they would have been good fighters with any credible system they may have picked.... myself and my "system" had little to do with it:)

[OTD]

Hello Everyone:

I am researching the Clan Surname Wang and wondering if any of the below named could have relocated in Tiawan approximate dates shown
---------------- Circa
Wang, Zi Jiu -1864
Wang, Zhen Yuan - 1885
Wang, Che Chiu - 1900

Thanks in advance for any and all Information

OTD

[xiao yao]

a lot of branches of mantis sprung up in taiwan that cant be found in the mainland, such as mimen, babu and changquan tanglang. i dont know much about these branches, but would it be fair to say taiwanese mantis has taken on more outside influences?

[r.(shaolin)]

" If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK."

Most of these 'masters' were not even born in 1949 and in the 80s were still just little children – yet they claim to represent pre 1949 kungfu, thats funny, very, very funny.

r.

[xiao yao]

im sure you could come here and tell them that

[mantid1]

what is REAL Kung Fu?

When I first saw KF forms out of Taiwan being performed I thought that it must have had an Okinawan influence in there somewhere. That would be ironic, huh?

That would go along with the story I once heard of a group of Okinawan pirtates that were ship wrecked on the shores of Taiwan in 1963 and passed on their fighting style. That would correlate with the beatles invasion which makes sense to me.

I still think you should compare the actual fighting side of things to get to the truth. Actually watch them apply their tecnique not just doing forms.

[mooyingmantis]

a lot of branches of mantis sprung up in taiwan that cant be found in the mainland, such as mimen, babu and changquan tanglang. i dont know much about these branches, but would it be fair to say taiwanese mantis has taken on more outside influences?

Yet, all these influences began before they ever hit the shores of Taiwan. If anything, they crystalized into their modern form after arriving in Taiwan. But the blending of styles began on the Mainland.


When I first saw KF forms out of Taiwan being performed I thought that it must have had an Okinawan influence in there somewhere. That would be ironic, huh?

Dave,
Nothing I have seen in Taiwanese mantis would cause me to think that. Is there a specific style to which you are referring?



I still think you should compare the actual fighting side of things to get to the truth. Actually watch them apply their tecnique not just doing forms.

Good point!

[mantid1]

It was mainly the baji I was referring to...I have also seen some of that "flavor" come out in some of the mantis performances from taiwan.

When I first saw it years ago coming from an okinawan MA background. Mainly the way the expressed the power in the forms. Found int interesting. Have done a lot of research since then.

I think comparing forms other than an "art" view point isnt much help.

[Jimbo]

In Taiwan, various styles of Fujian Crane are popular, even more so outside of Taipei. There is also a connection between some of Okinawan karate and such styles. But in the years I lived in Taiwan, I never saw anyone mix the flavor of a crane style with the northern mantis, at least regarding forms. A pretty common factor among many northern stylists, Mantis included, was at least some Chang Chuan (long fist) at the basic level.

As for the Baji flavor in Mantis sets, that was/is common among students of the Wu Tan Institute.

[YouKnowWho]

As for the Baji flavor in Mantis sets, that was/is common among students of the Wu Tan Institute.

I believe Su Yu Chang was the only person who had mixed Baji and mantis in Taiwan.

[Jimbo]

I believe Su Yu Chang was the only person who had mixed Baji and mantis in Taiwan.

When I lived there, mid-1980s to '93, Su Yu-Chang (Su Kun-Ming?) was not in Taiwan. My Mantis teacher had a former Wu Tan classmate who taught Baji, Mantis, and probably also Bagua, etc. My teacher's classmate, and his students, performed their Mantis with a Baji flavor. I'd seen others, some who trained with us, who also did it the same way. My own teacher did not use Baji flavor in his Mantis, in form or application.

I don't know whether they did their Mantis that way because of influence related to Su Yu-Chang; or because their main focus was Baji, and it affected the way they did everything else.

[Jimbo]

I'm sure that's what it is. Students from Wu Tan, or learning from teachers certified by Wu Tan, were the only ones in Taiwan who did Mantis with Baji flavor.

[r.(shaolin)]

im sure you could come here and tell them that

" If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK."

Frankly it is these "mainland master" which should go to Taiwan and HK tell them to their faces that they don't think much of the kung fu they practice.

rik zak
403 230 0357

[xiao yao]

yea, there is a lot of low quality kung fu in china, and my statement was just a general opinion that ive encountered; it doesnt reflect either my view or my shifus view.

theres no point getting ****y about it

[r.(shaolin)]

yea, there is a lot of low quality kung fu in china, and my statement was just a general opinion that ive encountered; it doesnt reflect either my view or my shifus view.

theres no point getting ****y about it

I agree there are great masters and in every country as well as less-than-great people in every country.

[wolfen]

I'm sure that's what it is. Students from Wu Tan, or learning from teachers certified by Wu Tan, were the only ones in Taiwan who did Mantis with Baji flavor.

I think the Wu Tang was set up somewhat as a CMA preservation society that brought together teachers of various lineages. South of Taipei the umbrella organization is known as the 'Guo Shu She' 國術社 but is connected under the Wu Tang in Taipei.
It also preserved traditional training methods such as 'mountain training' or various kinds of immersion training in physical body, culture and mind.

Liu Yun Qiao did not teach Liu He Tang Lang to these teachers and students as he deferred to an older brother.
Each teacher has had different lineages, I think most of the organizations/teachers there are very insular, they preserve their own traditions and don't mix with the outside.

This is the syllabus below for one org in Taipei. There is also Xing-Yi, Tong Bei and Miao Dao and other stuff taught by teachers in the society in other locations.

For the Island Guo Shu She - looks like a lot of internal arts (Mizong, Pigua, Baji, Chen Tai, Yang Tai, Xing Yi) - practiced with various Mantis and Longfist- seems bound to affect one another?

1. 奠基立功 北長拳 5. 剛柔虛實 太極拳
2. 飄遙仙蹤 迷蹤拳 6. 迅雷閃電 螳螂拳
3. 撼動乾坤 八極拳 7. 行雲流水 八卦拳
4. 翻江倒海 劈掛掌 8. 止戈為武 刀槍劍

The teachers recruit mostly from the secondary school institutions up so the syllabus of styles and form listings for them all can be pulled up from the appropriate websites nowadays (in Chinese).

There also is or was a chart listing on the net for the Guo Shu She for all the Island somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment.

[RAF]

Just a note:

At the advanced level of the baji system taught by Liu Yun Qiao, there is an absence of stomping.

When I play liu he duan chui, there is no intentional injection of baji flavor or stomping utilized in the form. However, there is no way to erase any influence that the da qiang training may have on the shen fa/body structure and power. I also do not recall ever having a baji posture intentionally inserted into any of the praying mantis forms taught.

If one watches the clip below, you can get a pretty good idea of the praying mantis flavor of old Wu Tan in Taiwan with a contrast [at the end of the clip] with baji flavor. Most of the younger practitioners would be entering their prime with regard to baji so the comparison to their praying mantis is interesting. [the 3:55 mark would be the start of a demo of xiao baji, da baji and liu da kai--prior mantis also includes a demo of Liu He praying mantis]

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/mpg/oldTV.mp4

Generally speaking, there is a lot of variation among Wu Tan students/instructors which inevitably occurs when you get that many people training in a system.

[mooyingmantis]

Robert,
Great clip!

Master Yang was just discussing this TV clip at lunch today. What timing. :)

[RAF]

Spooky stuff!

I haven't talked to him since last Sunday:cool:

[RAF]

At the 2:44 mark of the clip I posted you get a mantis player [from Wu Tan--not Tony Yang] doing a version of Lan Jie and right after that clip you get Tony playing baji lian huan--it might just be me but I don't see any baji flavor in the first clip in contrast to the second clip.

Again, lots of variation in skills, levels, and flavors in the umbrella called Wu Tan and I believe that Wolfen is correct regarding the "mission" of the Wu Tan Developmental Center founded by Liu. I think it may have been part of a Guomindang Government project but not sure.

[wolfen]

Again, lots of variation in skills, levels, and flavors in the umbrella called Wu Tan and I believe that Wolfen is correct regarding the "mission" of the Wu Tan Developmental Center founded by Liu. I think it may have been part of a Guomindang Government project but not sure.

Yes, Liu Yun Qiao and his colleagues taught the Presidential Bodyguards and the Secret Service so they got Government support in setting up the Guo Shu She (國術社) for the national preservation of martial arts in Taiwan.
.
The Island is divided up into 7-9 districts with a family system traditional teacher for each one. They set up an office in the student Activities Buildings of the institutions of higher learning (Universities and Technical schools) . So it helps to have a permanent place (office) for organizational continuity. Each center has a coach/teacher and all coaches for a district are under a specific teacher The programs at the unis and tech schools are a basic four year introduction to both internal and external arts as well as preserving Miao Dao, a traditional Taiwanese Art. The students can continue on with their teachers in various ways post graduate, while in post-graduate programs or after military service and some become disciples or "real" students. The students identify by the generational family number at the year of joining. The conformity of the system in each wave joining at the same time make the numbering system convenient.

Chart listing on the net for the Guo Shu She of the Teachers and Schools

http://www.geocities.ws/Colosseum/Bleachers/2630/club2.htm

Another version:
http://www.wutan.tw/layer1/organize.htm#taiwan

The curriculums for those school programs can be easily found on the net by cross-indexing a search and more is on youtube now.

[LaterthanNever]

A student of Zhao Zhuxi-forget the name- studied under Zhao (Chu Chuck Kai) before he moved to Vietnam."

Perhaps you mean Master Hui Chiang who was a disciple of the late CCK. He told me that he and his family fled to Vietnam w/ the rise in Communism and taught TJ Mantis in Vietnam for many years before coming to the USA (He teaches in Avon, MA)