Fak Sao ?? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

LoneTiger108

09-28-2012, 08:33 AM

In all the many Wing Chun lineages I ever did there were Faak Saos in the Biu Jee form. But I guess there are none in yours. What can I tell ya?

Possibly Lee Shing did not learn biu jee from Ip man!!

Do I detect a bit of 'oldboy' ganging up here gents?! :D

Firstly, I can assure you my Sigung knew Biu Jee. I only mentioned the SLT because that's very common knowledge, Biu Jee isn't.

Secondly, yes we have a 掃 /brushing/whipping palm but I personally do not use the 'whisking' palm terms as I think it's innaccurate and there are far too many innaccurate ideas out there already.

And finally, as both of you are seniors in the Wing Chun world (or at least in this fantastical forum anyway lol!) don't you think you should be leading by example rather than attempting to make a mockery of, not only one, but quite a few of my posts?!

If you're ego can handle it, you can always chat directly with my own Sifu and ask any questions you like. He has 47 years experience in Wing Chun Phil, if that makes you feel any better? And both of your Sifus know who he is and if they don't then you know absolutely nothing about my Sigung or what he learnt from Ip Man either! :p

Bacon

09-28-2012, 09:17 AM

In all the many Wing Chun lineages I ever did there were Faak Saos in the Biu Jee form. But I guess there are none in yours. What can I tell ya?

I don't know what you're terming as fak sau but there's no fak sau in biu jee as taught by Ip Man.

http://www.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2gls02U_t2Y

Vajramusti

09-28-2012, 09:18 AM

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1189524]
And finally, as both of you are seniors in the Wing Chun world (or at least in this fantastical forum anyway lol!) don't you think you should be leading by example rather than attempting to make a mockery of, not only one, but quite a few of my posts?!

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg

In the video above you will see a decent version of the biu jee that I do.
The fak sao section is after the flying elbows and the gan jam sections.
I don't mind seeing a fak sao section in the biu jee from you, your sihing, sifu or sigung
if you can give a link. A sense of the visible motion buy whatever name would aid in discussion.

Comparing perceptions, discussing them and even having different opinions is not necessarily mockery and I don't think that there has been mockery.

Bacon

09-28-2012, 09:25 AM

Vajramusti

09-28-2012, 09:45 AM

I don't know what you're terming as fak sau but there's no fak sau in biu jee as taught by Ip Man.

http://www.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2gls02U_t2Y
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????Not just the Ho Kam Ming line (including Fong sifu and Lui Ming Fai) see Wong shon Long's biu jee-
note the fak sao after the elbows and the gan jum sections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

Bacon

09-28-2012, 09:52 AM

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????Not just the Ho Kam Ming line (including Fong sifu and Lui Ming Fai) see Wong shon Long's biu jee-
note the fak sao after the elbows and the gan jum sections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

Considering how much Leung's wing chun seems to deviate from others in the Ip Man line I'd bet he learned that somewhere other than Ip Man.

Vajramusti

09-28-2012, 10:14 AM

Considering how much Leung's wing chun seems to deviate from others in the Ip Man line I'd bet he learned that somewhere other than Ip Man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you talking about WSL? If so I don't know what you are talking about when you say "deviate".
I was focusing on fak sao because Phil brought up the term.

LoneTiger108

09-28-2012, 10:34 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg

In the video above you will see a decent version of the biu jee that I do.
The fak sao section is after the flying elbows and the gan jam sections.
I don't mind seeing a fak sao section in the biu jee from you, your sihing, sifu or sigung
if you can give a link. A sense of the visible motion buy whatever name would aid in discussion.

Comparing perceptions, discussing them and even having different opinions is not necessarily mockery and I don't think that there has been mockery.

You see this is what winds me up about you guys! People here who have read your posts over time will know what I'm saying. You put out slight demeaning comments then try to track back and be a gentleman, but you don't fool me sir!

Consider this:
The form in your clip is a representation of a form that was considered the highest level of training in Wing Chun before Ip Man set up life in HK. It was refined during that time to variations we can all see today for free and without ever learning from a Wing Chun Sifu!

Do you really think THAT is a good example of Biu Jee???

LoneTiger108

09-28-2012, 11:08 AM

Do you really think THAT is a good example of Biu Jee???

Man... I actually just watched the clip all the way through and to be honest with you it was simply painful for me :( AND that was an 'advanced' version???

Sorry but I can't share my own version, my Sifu will never show his version and my Sigung only recorded his version 'as ordered' by Ip Man himself so it's not exactly what he learnt from him privately.

By the way, all our 'versions' are advanced :D

Happy Tiger

09-28-2012, 11:14 AM

Fak sau, to me, suggests the spirit of the tool fut sau in application. Lighter, ginger version with a slight upturned (Diagonal) tangent. Well plased in the biu jee form. The Lee Shing biu jee I saw on you tube W\ footwork seemed 'whiskey and broomy to me...abiding the analogy.
P.S. Around here, a day without condescending tone is like a day without sunshine! :) I'm developing a thicker skin to it these days and catch myself sometimes doing it too. It feels good to feel clever and superior. :)

LoneTiger108

09-28-2012, 11:27 AM

Fak sau, to me, suggests the spirit of the tool fut sau in application. Lighter, ginger version with a slight upturned (Diagonal) tangent. Well plased in the biu jee form. The Lee Shing biu jee I saw on you tube W\ footwork seemed 'whiskey and broomy to me...abiding the analogy.

This is the only clip of my Sigung doing Biu Jee, and it's the only time he ever allowed it to be recorded. Like I said before, this is also the version Ip Man wanted him to promote too

http://youtu.be/3dD6_7mzAQs?t=1m53s

Is this the one you mean??

Or this clip from one of my kung fu uncles students?

http://youtu.be/0AD6tcLWYEQ?t=3m26s

Happy Tiger

09-28-2012, 11:38 AM

Yes, second one.

Ali. R

09-28-2012, 11:41 AM

Considering how much Leung's wing chun seems to deviate from others in the Ip Man line I'd bet he learned that somewhere other than Ip Man.

This is why it’s so hard for someone to say, “I come from the original/legitimate line of Yip Man” without confusion, and at the same time debilitating other families based on where someone’s name was written with such a statement.

Because it’s a high percentage of the Hong Kong families that don’t play wing chun like ‘Yip Man’, and showing atomistic individualism from making such a statement gets those to gravitate to one's wing chun family based on words rather than ability.

If its water -or- ice, it’s still of the same manifestation, H2O; but with its own personality and identity. This is why your Sifu’s wing chun could never be yours. You must have your own identity to completely identify yourself within your wing chun system.

I’m not saying deviation; but to only express yourself just as ‘Yip Man’s’ first five students did. There is no wrong way or right way to do this if the concepts and principles are mastered; if so, none of ‘Yip Man’s’ students would be consider a part of his family. Develop the system in which you train in and then come into your own, to be great.

Ali

Happy Tiger

09-28-2012, 11:53 AM

Wing Chun tools fall into degrees. Tools with handles like Tan, Bong, Fook' Transition\action tools Huen, running hand, and such, and interpretative live descriptive tools fak sau tok sau ans such

Phil Redmond

10-01-2012, 10:53 PM

Do I detect a bit of 'oldboy' ganging up here gents?! :D

Firstly, I can assure you my Sigung knew Biu Jee. I only mentioned the SLT because that's very common knowledge, Biu Jee isn't.

Secondly, yes we have a 掃 /brushing/whipping palm but I personally do not use the 'whisking' palm terms as I think it's innaccurate and there are far too many innaccurate ideas out there already.

And finally, as both of you are seniors in the Wing Chun world (or at least in this fantastical forum anyway lol!) don't you think you should be leading by example rather than attempting to make a mockery of, not only one, but quite a few of my posts?!

If you're ego can handle it, you can always chat directly with my own Sifu and ask any questions you like. He has 47 years experience in Wing Chun Phil, if that makes you feel any better? And both of your Sifus know who he is and if they don't then you know absolutely nothing about my Sigung or what he learnt from Ip Man either! :p
The mockery started with the following remark you made.
"Just my opinion, but whisking hand sounds like you are making cakes, and this is not what I do "
All I did was ask for the Chinese character.

Phil Redmond

10-01-2012, 10:54 PM

I don't know what you're terming as fak sau but there's no fak sau in biu jee as taught by Ip Man.

http://www.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2gls02U_t2Y
To say that you know everything Yip Man taught is...? I can't find the words.

Phil Redmond

10-01-2012, 10:58 PM

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 01:45 AM

Fak Sau at 1:10 in the clip. He's got good form too.

Now that all depends on what you think 'good form' is... content rich doesn't always qualify as 'good' when demonstrated with such basic mentality.

Please, let's see some full speed, accuracy and power to our final form before I lose the will to live... :o

GlennR

10-02-2012, 02:29 AM

Please, let's see some full speed, accuracy and power to our final form before I lose the will to live... :o

We can only hope! ;)

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 02:51 AM

We can only hope! ;)

I have 'walkthrough' material of my own that is okay for students who are just starting the forms, but let's be real here people! If you are still moving like that 20-30 years down the line and have never pushed your own limits then you gotta question what it is you are actually doing imho.

There's a clue in the old saying that 'Biu Jee is never seen' but you lot can try and figure that out for yourselves :cool:

Jansingsang

10-02-2012, 06:20 AM

This is the only clip of my Sigung doing Biu Jee, and it's the only time he ever allowed it to be recorded. Like I said before, this is also the version Ip Man wanted him to promote too

http://youtu.be/3dD6_7mzAQs?t=1m53s

Is this the one you mean??

Or this clip from one of my kung fu uncles students?

http://youtu.be/0AD6tcLWYEQ?t=3m26s

Spencer this is Hilarious THAT SECOND FORM HAS NO Resemblance to Your Sigung Lee Sing So you better Step off your High Horse Mate ! And keep it Real Case of calling the Kettle Black ...And for the Record We Don't have Fak sau In the Wsl lineage So for those trying to use Wsl to validate the crap they do Stop cause your making a Asre of yourself :rolleyes:

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 06:40 AM

Spencer this is Hilarious THAT SECOND FORM HAS NO Resemblance to Your Sigung Lee Sing So you better Step off your High Horse Mate ! And keep it Real Case of calling the Kettle Black ...And for the Record We Don't have Fak sau In the Wsl lineage So for those trying to use Wsl to validate the crap they do Stop cause your making a Asre of yourself :rolleyes:

:D I don't ride horses dude, being a LoneTiger I only eat them lol!

What second form you talking about? This thread is about 3rd form??

And if you are commenting on the 2nd clip then in my defense (which I'm sure you couldn't give a sh!t about!) I haven't met the guy who demonstrated and my forms do not look too much like his at all. Different Sifus, same lineage, so reel ya neck back in willya! ;)

Oh... and BTW WSL may not have had this 'Faksau' or whatever because he never had Biu jee either... yawn!

Jansingsang

10-02-2012, 07:05 AM

:D I don't ride horses dude, only tigers lol!

What second form you talking about? This thread is about 3rd form??

And if you are commenting on the 2nd clip then in my defense (which I'm sure you couldn't give a sh!t about!) I haven't met the guy who demonstrated and my forms do not look too much like his at all. Different Sifus, same lineage, so reel ya neck back in willya! ;)

Oh... and BTW WSL may not have had this 'Faksau' or whatever because he never had Biu jee either... yawn!

What i was referring too was that second clip what you and your people think is Biu Ji Your Sad mate . It's unbelievable Spencer Stop Talking Sh!t Everybody knows WSL Learnt the whole System From Yip man Whats is debatable is what Lee Sing Learnt ??? So reel your neck back in Coco As far iam concerned Your Part of a Circus act Nothing more nothing less :rolleyes:

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 07:17 AM

What i was referring too was that second clip what you and your people think is Biu Ji Your Sad mate . It's unbelievable Spencer Stop Talking Sh!t Everybody knows WSL Learnt the whole System From Yip man Whats is debatable is what Lee Sing Learnt ??? So reel your neck back in Coco As far iam concerned Your Part of a Circus act Nothing more nothing less :rolleyes:

Y'know it's funny how people seem to idolize ancestors and make mistakes along the way by insisting this or that, so I will leave the case of exactly what WSL learnt or didn't learn to his own eldest students who KNOW.

There is no debate about what my own Sigung learnt dude. Only from people who don't know anything about the history of Ip Mans Wing Chun in the UK, like you.

And FWIW I have no problems with being a circus act, altho I prefer the term 'operatics' over circus anyday. And I have no control over what clips people put up from our family, and in what nature they are filmed. But I will always share openly as much as I can about my own experiences, and like I said my forms have never even been seen so don't go telling me what I do or don't do man, it's just silly.

You're a London lad, so why haven't you visited me to have a pint and a chat? Hell, we might even learn from eachother...

Vajramusti

10-02-2012, 08:44 AM

JPinAZ

10-02-2012, 10:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA
...At 1.58 WSL does what some-including my line calls fak sao.

From my experience, that is noi jut sau. Fak sau is outside the box whole arm motion going away from center and usage is typically covered by the kuit 'no shape, target shadow'. Noi jut sau is inside the box wrist/forearm action coming into or covering center (as showing in the clip above).

In HFY, our SNT has double-hand noi jut sau as well as 3 fak saus (diagonal, vertical and horizontal). Fak saus start at 1:20 and the noi jut saus can be seen at 1:31 and 1:37:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84nEJOiYk&feature=relmfu

I would agree that your previous post was showing a from of 'fak sau' at 1:10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg

In the video above you will see a decent version of the biu jee that I do.
The fak sao section is after the flying elbows and the gan jam sections.

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 11:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

or google wong shon leung's biu jee
Re: WSL's biu jee. At 1.58 WSL does what some-including my line calls fak sao. Others may use a different name.

I have to say that at least WSL does this set a very similar way to my Sigung. Regardless of snipe comments I have made today he had a very good structure in his clips. Still not keen on this 'faksau' label tho!

As for the 'irrelavent comments' you mention, I think the whole forum is becoming more irrelevant the moment a hierarchy of old boys belittle posts for the sake of ego rather than seriously looking at what they have in their hands, and what not too.

Nobody, as far as my research goes, has 'completed' the system of Wing Chun because all we have had to play with for the past 40 years is a simple induction program set down by Ip Man which should have been updated many moons ago...

Vajramusti

10-02-2012, 11:57 AM

Nobody, as far as my research goes, has 'completed' the system of Wing Chun because all we have had to play with for the past 40 years is a simple induction program set down by Ip Man which should have been updated many moons ago...
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"Research" can be a buzz word. But you are entitled to your opinions. Spencer.

OTOH- a good art is never really "completed".

JPinAZ

10-02-2012, 01:10 PM

OTOH- a good art is never really "completed".

maybe - but a system can be complete ;)

Nobody, as far as my research goes, has 'completed' the system of Wing Chun because all we have had to play with for the past 40 years is a simple induction program set down by Ip Man which should have been updated many moons ago...

Nothing against anyone or any lineage when I say this, but this is one of the reasons I feel fortunate to now be training WCK lineage that does not trace thru Ip Man - so much headache and conflicting views on what he taught, who got what, he said/she said, etc...
While I can't say I have completed my own personal training, I have no doubts about where my WCK comes from, what it is or the value in learning a complete system based on science & principle vs. personal interpretation, views or opinion.

Yoshiyahu

10-02-2012, 01:15 PM

JPinAZ where does your wing chun lineage come from?

maybe - but a system can be complete ;)

Nothing against anyone or any lineage when I say this, but this is one of the reasons I feel fortunate to now be training WCK lineage that does not trace thru Ip Man - so much headache and conflicting views on what he taught, who got what, he said/she said, etc...
While I can't say I have completed my own personal training, I have no doubts about where my WCK comes from, what it is or the value in learning a complete system based on science & principle vs. personal interpretation, views or opinion.

JPinAZ

10-02-2012, 02:12 PM

JPinAZ where does your wing chun lineage come from?

China (:confused:)

Look, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are genuinely interested and not just trolling. But maybe you could try to be just a little more specific when you are asking your quesions.

Until then, I'll just assume you are asking about Hung Fa Yi's family tree, so this may help some: http://www.hungfakwoon.com/familytree.htm

.

GlennR

10-02-2012, 03:02 PM

As for the 'irrelavent comments' you mention, I think the whole forum is becoming more irrelevant the moment a hierarchy of old boys belittle posts for the sake of ego rather than seriously looking at what they have in their hands, and what not too.

So what is there to look at?
Someones take on a form??

FWIW i found this forum, which if you just swapped a few terms around, could be this one.

http://balletalert.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/29793-good-feet-the-whos-whats-and-whys/

You keep harping on how the forum is dying Spencer, so what would you have it look like?

LoneTiger108

10-03-2012, 01:10 AM

maybe - but a system can be complete ;)

You see... someone here CAN be on the same page as me :)

Nothing against anyone or any lineage when I say this, but this is one of the reasons I feel fortunate to now be training WCK lineage that does not trace thru Ip Man - so much headache and conflicting views on what he taught, who got what, he said/she said, etc...

I see exactly what you are saying, and I come from a lineage that was the FIRST to represent Ip Man in Europe yet for some crazy reason there are others who deny this, try to belittle my Sigungs contribution and even go as far to say he never even learnt from Ip Man!

The facts are simple, he was given the responsibility because he was an excellent pioneer of our System. He was already quite accomplished before meeting Ip Man but he also knew a great fighter when he met one and there is no denying Ip Man was a great fighter. It is unfortunate that in later years like from the 1980s onwards that my Sigung took a backwards step to allow others to flourish because this only ended up with more division imho.

However, I have met people from all walks of life, across the genereations and most, if not all here in the UK have at least now heard my sigungs name. Now if we all learn to get along and share our ideas together I am sure we will all learn something, but I do not feel that vibe from many who post here so I tend to pull back and not bother anymore.

You keep harping on how the forum is dying Spencer, so what would you have it look like?

Seriously, just look at this thread :o

People can't even debate the use of a single character dude without taking potshots at eachother, and I got a whole lot more characters to look at and translate! I think this place is, like the magazine itself, beyond help unfortunately...

Personally, I would prefer a 'video only' forum where words are exchanged with some decent footage :):):)

Wayfaring

10-03-2012, 08:20 AM

People can't even debate the use of a single character dude without taking potshots at eachother, and I got a whole lot more characters to look at and translate! I think this place is, like the magazine itself, beyond help unfortunately...

While what you say is true, what are the alternatives?

1) People debating in a grown-up, professional fashion on an anonymous internet forum. Wait for it, I don't want to start the laughter too soon.

2) Heavy moderation - make Gene and Dave's life more complicated and miserable. **** everyone off. Have mass exodus. Then it will be almost exactly like the WCK community, including the fact that no lineages talk to each other much at all.

3) Ignore people's immaturity, snide comments, trolling, etc. and respond to what interests you.

While these options are not perfect/realistic, it does seem to me that #3 is about the only reasonable alternative.

Wayfaring

10-03-2012, 08:21 AM

JPinAZ where does your wing chun lineage come from?

Hung Fa Yi WCK from Garrett Gee

GlennR

10-03-2012, 03:01 PM

Seriously, just look at this thread :o

People can't even debate the use of a single character dude without taking potshots at eachother, and I got a whole lot more characters to look at and translate! I think this place is, like the magazine itself, beyond help unfortunately...

Spencer, you had the 1st of the potshots as Phil mentioned

The mockery started with the following remark you made.
"Just my opinion, but whisking hand sounds like you are making cakes, and this is not what I do "
All I did was ask for the Chinese character.

So whats your point?

Personally, I would prefer a 'video only' forum where words are exchanged with some decent footage :):):)

FWIW i like the written word. It challenges the mind a bit more to both convey and understand eachothers ideas, its called effort, and i cant help thinking that we are about to lose some great writing skills over the next few generations.

So all you want is video clips?

LoneTiger108

10-04-2012, 02:07 AM

Spencer, you had the 1st of the potshots as Phil mentioned

You see! Some people on this forum say I have no sense of humour, yet now you all think that by saying I don't have a 'whisking hand coz I don't bake cakes' is an insult or potshot??!! Grow up and smile every now and again people...

So whats your point?

What is the correct character for Faksau? Still this hasn't been addressed.

I shared a character that was ingnored actually, so I removed it. Then we have the varied translations, where I have already said I prefer 'whipping hand' but again no other input from anyone else after this, just slight digs at my own Sigungs learning and so on by both Phil and Joy, who should know better imho.

Then again, maybe they were just having a laugh too??!! Although I don't see that do you?

So all you want is video clips?

Of course, I love the written word too and I have always shared my identity since my earliest posts so this is why I would prefer to see people demonstrate and explain in videos more. Some will never put up a clip of themselves because they talk more than train unfortunately.

You will be surprised how young and inexperienced some posters can be and I think that a 'show and do' attitude could do this place the world of good.

GlennR

10-04-2012, 04:57 AM

You see! Some people on this forum say I have no sense of humour, yet now you all think that by saying I don't have a 'whisking hand coz I don't bake cakes' is an insult or potshot??!! Grow up and smile every now and again people...

Well it did come across as a smarta55 comment ,subsequently explaining your sense of humour was fine until you tell everyone to "grow up"

What is the correct character for Faksau? Still this hasn't been addressed.

Maybe no one knows

I shared a character that was ingnored actually, so I removed it.

Why?

Then we have the varied translations, where I have already said I prefer 'whipping hand' but again no other input from anyone else after this, just slight digs at my own Sigungs learning and so on by both Phil and Joy, who should know better imho.

Better slight digs than big ones i guess

Of course, I love the written word too and I have always shared my identity since my earliest posts so this is why I would prefer to see people demonstrate and explain in videos more. Some will never put up a clip of themselves because they talk more than train unfortunately.

I actually dont put a clip up because i AM too busy training

LoneTiger108

10-04-2012, 05:04 AM

Maybe no one knows

Well if this is the case, then nobody here actually knows Biu Jee which may be more possible than I first thought.

I actually dont put a clip up because i AM too busy training

Sorry but that's the worst excuse in the world, especially if you are going to be throwing your own opinions around at people that DO try and post some clips.

It takes less effort than you think to set up a camera on a tripod and let it run while you train and it's a very good self learning tool imho

wingchunIan

10-04-2012, 05:06 AM

Maybe no one knows

Or maybe like me they don't care......;)

GlennR

10-04-2012, 03:43 PM

Well if this is the case, then nobody here actually knows Biu Jee which may be more possible than I first thought.

Id suggest that there's been many boxing champions that couldnt read or write over the years, are you suggesting that because they couldnt spell 'hook" that they couldnt do/understand the technique??

You get too hung up on everything..... except the fighting part IMO

Sorry but that's the worst excuse in the world, especially if you are going to be throwing your own opinions around at people that DO try and post some clips.

I dont pretty much, unless its some drivel that Hendrick puts up to prove snake-emei-5layer-ykm-internalcombustion nonsense.

Go back and have a look.

It takes less effort than you think to set up a camera on a tripod and let it run while you train and it's a very good self learning tool imho

Youre probably right, but all id put up is sparring which you dont seem to believe in or practice..... so what would be the point?

SAAMAG

10-04-2012, 03:51 PM

The real question isn't the "fak sao" technique...but the "fak yoo" technique. When someone attacks with a punch....BAM--FAK YOO! If they attack with a kick "BAM BAM--FAK YOO TWO!"

Ozzy Dave

10-04-2012, 10:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

or google wong shon leung's biu jee
Re: WSL's biu jee. At 1.58 WSL does what some-including my line calls fak sao. Others may use a different name. The original reference that got another set of irrelevant commnets started was Phil's simple question/request regarding the chinese character(s) for fak sao.

That's called man sau in WSL line, difference being (for WSL line as I understand it) that it's a diagonal upward movement while fak sao is horizontal or even sightly downward.

I would say the name is all in the expected application for Bil Jee and with the emphasis on emergency techniques, in WSL Bil Jee at least, I can appreciate the naming convention.

I personally think too much is made of technique names expecially in trying to determine the absolute provenance which to me is the ultimate tail chasing exercise. Its been my experience that they simply tend to change over time within a certain degree depending on the emphasis of the Sifu, its the application that's important.

Dave

LoneTiger108

10-05-2012, 01:45 AM

Id suggest that there's been many boxing champions that couldnt read or write over the years, are you suggesting that because they couldnt spell 'hook" that they couldnt do/understand the technique??

Not a good comparison in my opinion. Wing Chun isn't boxing. Using the finger/palm/fist methods all have specific detail that you just do not have in boxing. And I have nver said you need to be able to understand all this mumbo jumbo to fight. It's actually about teaching, and preserving the art/system as it is handed down.

Personally I don't believe in teaching from memory alone. It's actually impossible and causes too much variation. This happens today, especially in the seminar rich students who literally are picking up sansau after sansau without (maybe) ever experiencing the actual foundation training of the system.

Youre probably right, but all id put up is sparring which you dont seem to believe in or practice..... so what would be the point?

I love to see decent sparring clips, as long as they stay true to Wing Chun foundation concepts. I just rarely see examples of that here. I also love sansau applications too, and like most I do prefer to see methods being used against varied scenarios so don't think because I promote the art over the fight that I wouldn't be interested.

Mind you, if you're gonna be rolling around on the floor and wrestling I might lose interest pretty quickly ;)

LoneTiger108

10-05-2012, 01:58 AM

That's called man sau in WSL line, difference being (for WSL line as I understand it) that it's a diagonal upward movement while fak sao is horizontal or even sightly downward.

I would say the name is all in the expected application for Bil Jee and with the emphasis on emergency techniques, in WSL Bil Jee at least, I can appreciate the naming convention.

Excellent post and good reasoning imho.

... its the application that's important.

This is why I believe correct terms are important because in essence the proper name of a technical application is how we remind ourselves how/why it is applied in such a way.

Another example is that we don't call a hook a jab in boxing because they're totally different methods with different mechanics and purpose.

In other words, if you believe Biu Jee to be an emergency form it makes total sense that EVERY set is actually a Munsau/Asking Hand of sorts... just an idea.

GlennR

10-05-2012, 02:47 AM

Not a good comparison in my opinion. Wing Chun isn't boxing. Using the finger/palm/fist methods all have specific detail that you just do not have in boxing.

Thats uneducated in boxing at best, but at worst comes across as condescending from a "superior martial intellect".
That statement is nonsense Spencer, research what you comment, from both sides, before you make a comparison.

And I have nver said you need to be able to understand all this mumbo jumbo to fight. It's actually about teaching, and preserving the art/system as it is handed down.

Do some research on both boxing trainers AND Asian martial art trainers. Many (if not most) could not read or write in the old days, yet we bask in their infamy... how did their illiterately affect their teaching?

Personally I don't believe in teaching from memory alone. It's actually impossible and causes too much variation. This happens today, especially in the seminar rich students who literally are picking up sansau after sansau without (maybe) ever experiencing the actual foundation training of the system.

Its all about memory and the training from that.
You cant get that from photo's, videos or text

I love to see decent sparring clips, as long as they stay true to Wing Chun foundation concepts.

Which are in comparison to, lets say for arguments sake, boxing.

I just rarely see examples of that here. I also love sansau applications too, and like most I do prefer to see methods being used against varied scenarios so don't think because I promote the art over the fight that I wouldn't be interested.

And what is the point of the art before fighting?

Mind you, if you're gonna be rolling around on the floor and wrestling I might lose interest pretty quickly ;)

I love a good roll!!!! ;)

LoneTiger108

10-05-2012, 05:00 AM

Thats uneducated in boxing at best, but at worst comes across as condescending from a "superior martial intellect".
That statement is nonsense Spencer, research what you comment, from both sides, before you make a comparison.

Am I uneducated because I presume you are talking of pro competitive boxing where we all strap up and wear gloves so the contact we make is with the front of our fists?

How am I to know you are referring to pugilism and pre-glove bare knuckle boxing man!?! Because in that sense there are many similarities to Wing Chun...

With everything else about illiterate teachers, and memory as the way to go for future teachers I think I will agree to disagree my friend. This is how we end up in a forum with varied understandings of a single chinese character!

As much as I respect the past and how things might have been done, I learnt Wing Chun by learning the Chinese language (and I aint 100% literate in that lol!) and so I try as best I can to share this way over just relying on memory alone.

GlennR

10-05-2012, 05:21 AM

Am I uneducated because I presume you are talking of pro competitive boxing where we all strap up and wear gloves so the contact we make is with the front of our fists?
.

Yes, yes you are uneducated in it. Relying just on the front of the fists ,as you put it ,doesn't lessen it one bit. If you are seriously interested in the subtle difference in styles, different methods of power generation etc let me know and ill point you in the right direction.

How am I to know you are referring to pugilism and pre-glove bare knuckle boxing man!?!

Difference being to modern boxing?

Because in that sense there are many similarities to Wing Chun

Now this is good, seriously. What do you see in old school boxing that relates to WC?
Finally, something about fighting.

With everything else about illiterate teachers, and memory as the way to go for future teachers I think I will agree to disagree my friend. This is how we end up in a forum with varied understandings of a single chinese character!

Give me an illiterate knowledgeable trainer to a symbol anytime! :)

As much as I respect the past and how things might have been done, I learnt Wing Chun by learning the Chinese language (and I aint 100% literate in that lol!) and so I try as best I can to share this way over just relying on memory alone.

I barely know a word of chinese........ does that make you a better trainer than me?

LoneTiger108

10-05-2012, 07:11 AM

I barely know a word of chinese........ does that make you a better trainer than me?

Well... I guess it would if someone wanted to practise how I practised Wing Chun ;) But if they liked your method, then you would be first choice of course...

Now this is good, seriously. What do you see in old school boxing that relates to WC?
Finally, something about fighting.

Hey don't get your hopes up! I'm only a beginner :D

Fighting, for me, is natural. It's a natural ability to be remorseless in attack. It can be learnt, to an extent, but there's a natural element to it that you either have or don't have. I believe I have that. I'm told I definitely have that. And I have seen the results first hand of having that temperment out of control too so I'm much more aware of how to control that these days.

I do not know enough about early boxing development to really comment on it's similarities to Wing Chun, but I do know they both seemed to appear in England and China at the same time in history, so that tells me something.

My Grandad taught me to put up my fists, and both were Army Boxers and pretty crazy dudes when they were in service. But I don't talk about that because that's my blood family dude and my memories for me for me and my son and daughter. They also taught me to never fight :)

JPinAZ

10-05-2012, 09:18 AM

That's called man sau in WSL line, difference being (for WSL line as I understand it) that it's a diagonal upward movement while fak sao is horizontal or even sightly downward.

Fak sau can be any of 3 directions - horizontal, vertical or diagonal. It really depends on the situation and how space needs to be swept.
I would call that fak sau per the definition of the technique name - to wisk/sweep. Regardless of lineage, man sau typically already has facing, where fak sau is typically no facing (no shape, target shadow), which is more for emergencies.

I would say the name is all in the expected application for Bil Jee and with the emphasis on emergency techniques, in WSL Bil Jee at least, I can appreciate the naming convention.

Even more to my point, since you're talking about biu jee's emphasis on emergency techniques, I'd say this falls into the category of no shape, target shadow - so fak sau sweeping away from center to cover the shadow makes a lot more sense.

I personally think too much is made of technique names expecially in trying to determine the absolute provenance which to me is the ultimate tail chasing exercise. Its been my experience that they simply tend to change over time within a certain degree depending on the emphasis of the Sifu, its the application that's important.

Dave

I totally agree way to much emphasis is put on the name of a technique. IMO, it's the concepts/principles that drives them that is more far important. But where we differ is these are thing that no sifu could/should change. You can't change physics or nature :)

JPinAZ

10-05-2012, 09:30 AM

going back thru this thread, I realize I actually quoted the wrong clips in my earlier reply to Joy and was looking at the wrong section of the clip on one anyway, which lead me into a ngoi jut sau tangent I shouldn't have gone on. I think I was sleep deprived and really missed the boat on this, my apologies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg

In the video above you will see a decent version of the biu jee that I do.
The fak sao section is after the flying elbows and the gan jam sections

Agreed on the clips showing fak saus in both quotes above and below.
And yes, WSL is doing fak sau below. Someone mentioned WSL does not have fak sau, I've heard the opposite from several WSL guys, and you can see them clearly in the clip below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0WOEnxFyGA

or google wong shon leung's biu jee
Re: WSL's biu jee. At 1.58 WSL does what some-including my line calls fak sao. Others may use a different name. The original reference that got another set of irrelevant commnets started was Phil's simple question/request regarding the chinese character(s) for fak sao.

Vajramusti

10-05-2012, 11:34 AM

going back thru this thread, I realize I actually quoted the wrong clips in my earlier reply to Joy and was looking at the wrong section of the clip on one anyway, which lead me into a ngoi jut sau tangent I shouldn't have gone on. I think I was sleep deprived and really missed the boat on this, my apologies.

Agreed on the clips showing fak saus in both quotes above and below.
And yes, WSL is doing fak sau below. Someone mentioned WSL does not have fak sau, I've heard the opposite from several WSL guys, and you can see them clearly in the clip below.
------------------------------------------------------------

Understandable. No problem. I wondered how jut sao got into the discussion- but I chose not to comment.
The fak motion is there in biu jee and the bot jam do work-fak do. Many applications are possible imo.

Yoshiyahu

10-05-2012, 01:18 PM

Each Lineage is different...Even among WSL and others various Sifus interpret the forms differently...or borrow from other wing chun people they have met...In either case if your WC doesn't possess the fak sao or one of your forms omitts it dont bash the next guy for having one techinique more than you....

At the end of the day when you utilize Fak Sao in actual sparring it wont be while doing Siu Lien Tao...

------------------------------------------------------------

Understandable. No problem. I wondered how jut sao got into the discussion- but I chose not to comment.
The fak motion is there in biu jee and the bot jam do work-fak do. Many applications are possible imo.

Ozzy Dave

10-05-2012, 05:08 PM

Fak sau can be any of 3 directions - horizontal, vertical or diagonal. It really depends on the situation and how space needs to be swept.
I would call that fak sau per the definition of the technique name - to wisk/sweep.

Yeah, not disagreeing just stating the terminology as I was taught.

Regardless of lineage, man sau typically already has facing, where fak sau is typically no facing (no shape, target shadow), which is more for emergencies.

Disagree here which is why I guess I prefer man sao as the term for the technique in Bil Gee since it is a facing movement as you turn into the opponent to generate force and regain the line. To gain force with fak sao you generally have to turn away slightly i.e. open the shoulder area like you do with a punch from a turning stance, so for me that is why its done as it is in SLT. In any case I see them as two distinct techniques.

I totally agree way to much emphasis is put on the name of a technique. IMO, it's the concepts/principles that drives them that is more far important. But where we differ is these are thing that no sifu could/should change. You can't change physics or nature :)

Sifu don't change the concepts just find personalised refinements in applying them, its important to make this point so we avoid all this "my Sifu's style is the original, true, whatever" BS.

Dave

Vajramusti

10-05-2012, 06:10 PM

Man sao=asking hand

Different from fak sao.

Phil Redmond

10-05-2012, 06:56 PM

Man sao=asking hand

Different from fak sao.
What Joy said..:)

Ozzy Dave

10-05-2012, 07:55 PM

Man sao=asking hand

Different from fak sao.

Agree but in WSL Line the technique you pointed out in Wong Sifu's Bil Gee is referred to as "asking hand" not fak sao and the application (again for WSL line) corresponds with that designation.

If others refer to it as fak sao I don't have a problem, just trying to clear up things as regards WSL since people have been saying all sorts of things...

Dave

Vajramusti

10-05-2012, 08:27 PM

Agree but in WSL Line the technique you pointed out in Wong Sifu's Bil Gee is referred to as "asking hand" not fak sao and the application (again for WSL line) corresponds with that designation.

If others refer to it as fak sao I don't have a problem, just trying to clear up things as regards WSL since people have been saying all sorts of things...

Dave
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure that WSL himself regularly called that motion in the biu jee form- man sao. In any case -my interest
in the discussion was on the motion- by whatever name different lineages may use.

Phil Redmond

10-05-2012, 08:46 PM

Agree but in WSL Line the technique you pointed out in Wong Sifu's Bil Gee is referred to as "asking hand" not fak sao and the application (again for WSL line) corresponds with that designation.

If others refer to it as fak sao I don't have a problem, just trying to clear up things as regards WSL since people have been saying all sorts of things...

Dave
Dave, did you hear directly from WSL or are you referring to something taught to you?
I ask because 10 people can be in the same room, hear the same conversation and report the conversation differently. Dogma is really bad for Wing Chun. btw, you could be right but do you get my point?

Ozzy Dave

10-05-2012, 09:05 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure that WSL himself regularly called that motion in the biu jee form- man sao. In any case -my interest
in the discussion was on the motion- by whatever name different lineages may use.

Can't be completely sure of course however, I'm quite sure for instance David Peterson calls it that - actually would be a good question for David as his Chinese language is first class.

Out of my interest on the motion, what is the Bill Gee 'fak sao' application in Fong Sifu's school?

For my part from WSL perspective it was shown as a recovery from a surprise attack from the side or rear.

Dave

Ozzy Dave

10-05-2012, 09:17 PM

Dave, did you hear directly from WSL or are you referring to something taught to you?
I ask because 10 people can be in the same room, hear the same conversation and report the conversation differently. Dogma is really bad for Wing Chun. btw, you could be right but do you get my point?

Hi Phil, yeah get your point and for my part not trying to spread dogma or division, I actually agree with the 'we are all one family' type of thinking.

Its just how I remember being taught and no, didn't here it from WSL but I presume my Sifu would have as was a WSL student.

Any how the semantics aside I'm more interested in the usage, like I said was taught to me as a recovery technique from a side or rear attack - how do you teach it if I may ask?

Dave

Yoshiyahu

10-05-2012, 09:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLj8RazScA

Vajramusti

10-06-2012, 08:03 AM

Can't be completely sure of course however, I'm quite sure for instance David Peterson calls it that - actually would be a good question for David as his Chinese language is first class.

Out of my interest on the motion, what is the Bill Gee 'fak sao' application in Fong Sifu's school?

For my part from WSL perspective it was shown as a recovery from a surprise attack from the side or rear.

Dave
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I respect David Peterson but I would be interested in hearing whether any one heard WSL himself call
that movement in the form as man sao. One can use different postures and stances for man sao-asking hand purposes including an adjusted fak sao... but an aligned double wu or a jong and a wu can also serve a man sao function. Man sao to me is a function while several different motions as applications can serve that function.

Per my long standing perspective, I don't speak for Fong sifu or his other students.But I try to understand and stay true to concepts and not embarrass my family.. In the details, individuals can use the same concepts and principles but be varied in their applications depending
on various factors including skills, alertness/awareness, timing etc. Hence the distinction between development and application. At the developmental level the fak sao should be done properly as in the biu jee form.( in my learning, practice and teaching). Then with san sik free hand drills solo and also with partner one develops application- further enhanced via chi sao in all it's variations.

Yes, fak sao can be used against a close quarters attack from the back or side continuing into unbalancing the opponent for a throw or a strike using huen ma.For development the elbow is not finished in a bent position but in application it is- for energy conservation and minimizing chances of the elbow being broken or controlled. With chum kiu feet motions, fak sao can also (with development of skills) be used frontally against several different kinds of strikes, including some CLF types or overhand boxing strike or used with biu ma to control low incoming attacks.

I think that we can listen to what others do and not sink to name calling pr incivility in discussion- so far so good on this part of the thread with Phil and Ozzy etc.

JPinAZ

10-06-2012, 08:22 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLj8RazScA

Not sure what your point is behind this video? Can you please tell us your idea of it's relevance?

IMO, while the clip has 'fak sau' in the title, I didn't see what I would call a fak sau at all. Besides all the bad facing, poor structure and 'grabbing', in the beginning of the clip I did see something more akin to saat geng sau being used.

JPinAZ

10-06-2012, 08:31 AM

Regarding Man Sau vs Fak Sau.

From my experience in Ip Man WC, Man sau, or 'asking hand' is more of a Bai Jong setup posting structure vs an actual 'action'. If I understand correctly, it is a way to line up your guard hands while facing your opponent. I have heard some say man sau is also used for engagement as well, but maybe some of the long-time IP guys can comment further?
And the reason I say this is from my IM WC experience is because in HFY we do not really talk about or use the term Man Sau. Again, this setup is covered in our first of 5 elemental battle arrays, Bai Jong. I believe TWC has a similar idea to this in the first of their 5 stages of combat (?)
Either way, I would say the kiut that dictates Man Sau is "Have Shape, Target Shape" (Or Have Shape, Keep Shape depending on how it's translated).

Per my shared ideas earlier, from my understanding of the system fak sau is used to sweep space when an attack is coming from the shadow off center. Whether it's a punch you catch out of the corner of your eye, or when you feel contact from the side from say a push or grab. The idea is to cover the shadow area with long arm whipping shapes usually driven by the shoulder muscles PRIOR to adjusting your body position to face the thread. This makes 'fak sau' more of an 'action' with the kiut 'No Shape Target Shadow' dictating the action.

Looking at the kiut and the functions, it's hard for me to understand how anyone would feel these terms fak sau and man sau are interchangable. I fully repsect Ozzy Dave saying that is how he was taught/what he was told and mean no slight toward him, but in WCK, I was always taught to look to the concepts/principles of the system for my answers more-so than to blindly go by 'what sifu said'.

Yoshiyahu

10-06-2012, 02:17 PM

Not sure what your point is behind this video? Can you please tell us your idea of it's relevance?

IMO, while the clip has 'fak sau' in the title, I didn't see what I would call a fak sau at all. Besides all the bad facing, poor structure and 'grabbing', in the beginning of the clip I did see something more akin to saat geng sau being used.

Can you please post a clip of what you think is good FAK SaU..

The clip i posted was basically showing whisking hand as a offensive technique...

Happy Tiger

10-06-2012, 03:10 PM

Hi Phil, yeah get your point and for my part not trying to spread dogma or division, I actually agree with the 'we are all one family' type of thinking.

Its just how I remember being taught and no, didn't here it from WSL but I presume my Sifu would have as was a WSL student.

Any how the semantics aside I'm more interested in the usage, like I said was taught to me as a recovery technique from a side or rear attack - how do you teach it if I may ask?

Dave
I'M from WSL ( sifu Li Man Kit). It was taught to me as fak sau. As I know it , favoured as an off line collecting tool, if that makes any sense.

JPinAZ

10-06-2012, 03:39 PM

Can you please post a clip of what you think is good FAK SaU..

I don't know any showing fak sau in application. Not saying there aren't any, but I just don't have time to go looking for one (nor care enough really).

But, I have already shared a clip showing the 3 different fak saus HFY has in it's SNT earlier in this thread (post #36 if you want to see what I'm talking about). If you have any questions bout them, let me know.

The clip i posted was basically showing whisking hand as a offensive technique...

Again, I'd say there are no fak saus in that clip, but that's a dead horse I don't feel like beating any more. You can call it fak sau or anything else if you want though, no biggy to me :)

JPinAZ

10-06-2012, 03:40 PM

I'M from WSL ( sifu Li Man Lit). It was taught to me as fak sau. As I know it , favoured as an off line collecting tool, if that makes any sense.

makes perfect sense to me!

Ozzy Dave

10-06-2012, 04:24 PM

Man sao to me is a function while several different motions as applications can serve that function.

Agreed, good point, as you say wu sao is often used in this way.

Per my long standing perspective, I don't speak for Fong sifu or his other students.But I try to understand and stay true to concepts and not embarrass my family.. In the details, individuals can use the same concepts and principles but be varied in their applications depending
on various factors including skills, alertness/awareness, timing etc. Hence the distinction between development and application. At the developmental level the fak sao should be done properly as in the biu jee form.( in my learning, practice and teaching). Then with san sik free hand drills solo and also with partner one develops application- further enhanced via chi sao in all it's variations.

Understand, thanks.

Yes, fak sao can be used against a close quarters attack from the back or side continuing into unbalancing the opponent for a throw or a strike using huen ma.For development the elbow is not finished in a bent position but in application it is- for energy conservation and minimizing chances of the elbow being broken or controlled. With chum kiu feet motions, fak sao can also (with development of skills) be used frontally against several different kinds of strikes, including some CLF types or overhand boxing strike or used with biu ma to control low incoming attacks.

Thanks, I like that explaination especially the point about the bent elbow.

I think that we can listen to what others do and not sink to name calling pr incivility in discussion- so far so good on this part of the thread with Phil and Ozzy etc.

Agreed, I'm happy to defer to the wisdom of the board which if used in an open spirit is a great resource. I've learn't something through the consensus which is great, cheers.

Looking at the kiut and the functions, it's hard for me to understand how anyone would feel these terms fak sau and man sau are interchangable. I fully repsect Ozzy Dave saying that is how he was taught/what he was told and mean no slight toward him, but in WCK, I was always taught to look to the concepts/principles of the system for my answers more-so than to blindly go by 'what sifu said'.

No slight taken mate, as I said previously the action is more important than the name which would seem to be the same across the families and for my part what you say makes sence too.

I'M from WSL ( sifu Li Man Lit). It was taught to me as fak sau. As I know it , favoured as an off line collecting tool, if that makes any sense.

Thanks, good feedback as I said happy to go along with the wisdom of the board.

Dave

Phil Redmond

10-07-2012, 11:46 PM

I'M from WSL ( sifu Li Man Lit). It was taught to me as fak sau. As I know it , favoured as an off line collecting tool, if that makes any sense.
That's how I learned it as well. We Wing Chun people are a lot closer than some of us might think. :)

Happy Tiger

10-13-2012, 06:05 PM

That's how I learned it as well. We Wing Chun people are a lot closer than some of us might think. :)
I feel that way too

Bacon

10-13-2012, 06:26 PM

That's how I learned it as well. We Wing Chun people are a lot closer than some of us might think. :)

Wait are you saying you learned man sau is a fak sau? Like the two motions are named as the same one?

Happy Tiger

10-13-2012, 10:15 PM

Wait are you saying you learned man sau is a fak sau? Like the two motions are named as the same one?
? I think he's referring to the common application of fak sau being more or less universal in VT.

Bacon

10-13-2012, 11:33 PM

? I think he's referring to the common application of fak sau being more or less universal in VT.

I wouldn't term it as universal. A good analogy would be arm triangle chokes. People might have little tricks they find make it work better have a new way of doing it or slipping in easier or whatever but it's still a choke.

Happy Tiger

10-14-2012, 08:16 AM

I wouldn't term it as universal. A good analogy would be arm triangle chokes. People might have little tricks they find make it work better have a new way of doing it or slipping in easier or whatever but it's still a choke.
Fair enough, that's why I said 'more or less'. One of the coolest things about VT is it's interpretative nature. I must admit though, to me, overlapping fak and mun sau seems more a stretch than say gahn sau and jahm sau.

Phil Redmond

10-17-2012, 05:11 PM

Wait are you saying you learned man sau is a fak sau? Like the two motions are named as the same one?
Man is asking. Fak is whisking. How can they be the same thing?

Bacon

10-17-2012, 06:47 PM

Man is asking. Fak is whisking. How can they be the same thing?

They can't which is the point I was making. I just misunderstood what you were saying :p

wingchunIan

10-18-2012, 03:22 AM

Man is asking. Fak is whisking. How can they be the same thing?

I'm not going to comment on the form as to each their own. In my own lineage we practice the form with mun sao and the angle and energy are very different to the fak sao found in siu With regard to Fak sao and Man / mun sao being the same thing, you only have to look at your own sentence to see that it is infinitely possible. Man / mun sao is a concept, you are asking with your technique looking for an answer, a response, a hole to drive through or a bridge to work from etc etc. It can be applied to any technique be it a punch, palm, jum, fak or any other