Horse Training

[EasyNow]

Could someone tell me what increase in time i should go up in for staying in horse stance. I can do about a minute at the moment but would like to know how to progress and how much by, any help??

[namkuen]

Hello, EasyNow! Horse training is the most essential aspect of fundamental gung fu training. Without solid/strong horse stance, one's hand techniques and movements will not have the true and necessary power to execute the advanced techniques of a particular style. Therefore, I commend you on your desire to seek out good information. However, I must warn you that horse training is very, very, very grueling and should not be taken lightly. It must be approached with all discipline and commitment.

I practice Hung Ga from Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling, and there are basically two methods of opening the horse. The first is through yee gee kim yeung ma, and the second is through what I call whipping the dragon's tail. (I suggest that you learn both.)

Yee gee kim yeung ma is the inward pigeon-toed horse stance. To open the horse in this manner, you slide the heels of your feet outward by slightly spinning the balls of your feet inward, allowing the knees to sink downard and inward. Then slide the balls of your feet outward by spinning slightly inward on the heels of your feet, allowing the knees to go outward and downard. Then repeat the first maneuever by sliding the heels of your feet outward by slightly spinning the balls of your feet inward, allowing the knees to sink downard and inward. Your legs and feet should have near shoulder-width separation. Then spin outward on the balls of your feet about half the width of step two. Your feet should now be parallel to each other, and your knees should now push outward. Now drop you waist to a level as low as possible. Also note that your toes should be clawing into the ground like grips and your hands should be held at your side, about two inches above your waist and about one inch off your side, with your elbows pulling back.

To open the horse using the dragon tail whips, stand in a natural stance with your fists at your side as described above. Then with your right foot, swing your right leg and hip to make a half circle clockwise and point your foot forward as it lands. Shift your weight onto your right leg and with your left foot swing your left leg and hip to make a half circle counter-clockwise, pointing the toes forward as it lands on the ground. Your feet should be parallel, pointing forward, about two shoulder-lengths wide, clawing into the ground. Again sink your waist as low as you can endure and push outward on your knees.

In practicing the horse, you should start off with small increments of time, maybe two minutes, and strive to increase your holding time as your strength increases. Also, keep your breath relaxed and steady as well as your shoulders relaxed and not hunched. Keep your back straight and your hips and energy forward.

I hope this helps!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

[This message was edited by Nam Kuen on 10-08-01 at 11:38 PM.]

[EasyNow]

wow, thanks for the long explanation. And your right, horse stance is the hardest training i have ever done, you have no control over the pain in your legs. I can stand in it for 1 minute before i collapseand was thinking about taking it up 10 secs each week. also: how long can you manage?

[namkuen]

EasyNow, I'm up to over 25 minutes.

Also, when practicing the horse, it is imperative that you keep your breath and muscles relaxed. Don't try to "grind" or tense-up to endure. This will only prevent your standing power. Instead, concentrate on keeping your hips forward and pushing your knees outward. Remember, the more you endure, the more you can endure. The less you endure, the less you can to endure.

Morever, practice the bow-and-arrow stance on both the left and right sides. This will also strengthen the lower body and able you to endure the horse more. Also, curl the bottom of your tongue to the roof of your mouth and press it lightly upward. Make sure that your back teeth are aligned, upper to lower and pressed together. Finally, squeeze close your anas and imagine that you are pulling your testicles upward from within your body. (I know these may sound weird, but they are essential.)

I hope this further helps!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

[Shaolin]

How is riding a horse gonna help you fight :mad:

Pain is weakness leaving the body.

[SevenStar]

1. It builds leg strength. You combine this with explosiveness training and you will be able to produce strong kicks (with proper power generation, of course)

2.It teaches you proper stance. CMA has several throws that are made effective simply by shifting into a stance. If you train CMA and don't know this, then go lear more, then come back.

3. there are internal aspects also, but I'm not an internal stylist, so I won't elaborate on it.

not all things are as they seem on the surface. How does speed bag training help you fight? running? shadowboxing? nonr of these things alone will teach you, they are a means to an end. when combined with proper training, these methods aid in your fighting ability.

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[SevenStar]

nevermind, after seeing some of your other posts, I think you were joking

"You ain't got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I'll choke a ***** out wit his own gi" - Rass Kass

[Yuen]

You must be a beginner, right (nothing bad at all)? It is normal that horse stance is hard in the beginning but when you practice it frequently, it starts to go easier. In a few weeks you can probably do 12-15 minutes of horse stance. Remember though that overtraining is bad, so you don't have to practice every day 8 hours a day. Every day 15 minutes is even enough for the horse stance. Good luck!

[honorisc]

Ten seconds sounds good (added per week).

There's more to the stance than standing. There are several points that can decide if you're doing a good horse-riding stance. Make sure you're following those according to your school~. Yet it does basically follow, seperate your feet then sit.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you're crazy yuen.

do you mean a low horse stance??? in a couple weeks??

i don't think it would be easy to build even a medium horse stance (basically meaning where you should be or slightly lower) up to 15 minutes in just a couple weeks starting from scratch. not saying it couldn't be done, but i think it's unlikely.

for the record i can hold a medium horse for at least 15 minutes (the time it takes to complete one of my beathing exercises) but i still doubt i could hold a low stance like that for more than 2 minutes . .. three most on a good day.

i didn't time it, but i'd say that it took at least two months of almost daily practice to be able to hold for that lenght of time. the only practice i did for horse stance was doing a breathing set which takes about 15 minutes (i would raise up out of the stance as needed untill i could hold it for the entire set) but i don't see how that makes a difference as your still sitting in horse stance. . .. you're just doing other stuff to which makes it a little easier to endure.

where's my beer?

[namkuen]

GunnedDown, Based upon my own horse training, I am inclined to agree with you regarding the unlikeliness of being able to sit firmly in the low horse stance for 12-15 minutes as our esteem fellow, Yuen, suggested. As a matter of fact, I would say that it's very unlikely to hold a mid-level horse stance for 12-15 only just after "a couple of weeks". But, hey, who are we to say. I just know that when I first started the horse training it took me over six months to be able to hold it for 5 minutes, and I wasn't allowed to learn any forms. The horse was all I did (along with some stretching and punching exercise). (I started learning gung fu from Grandmaster Ark Wong in 1981, about 2 years before I started Hung Ga.)

Moreover, as I have further learned, the true essence of horse training is not just to be able to endure the horse, but more importantly, to be able to allow the energy to continuously circulate throughout the body. This is quite difficult, because the body must be firm yet relaxed. Energy must flow throughout different parts of the body, yet each part must be in harmony with the other. Energy in the waist flows forward into the thighs; energy in the thighs must flow foward to the knees, pushing the knees outward and not allowing them to collapse inward. Energy in the lower legs flows downward through the feet into the ground; energy in the arms flows back into the elbow with the fist clinched tightly but not tensed. Energy in the upper torso flows upward to the shoulders, keeping the back straight; the head must be steady with the eyes level and looking straight ahead. The breath must relaxed and focused. These are some of the internal aspects of horse training. Have fun!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

[fa_jing]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone else practices the low horse with thighs approximately parallel to the ground, feet straight forward and slight INWARD intention on the knees. I always practice the low horse this way, from a brief stint I did with 7* Praying Mantis. I find that if you clamp inward, it exercises your inner thighs well. However, it is very difficult for me to maintain a straight back, unless I hold out my arms in front of me. I practice up to 200 punches at a medium rate, which takes over two minutes - hopefully one day I'll get to 1 thousand punches. It has improved the strength of my muscles, tendons, and ligaments, once I got used to it - not at all damaging to the knees. The reason being that if you tuck your hip and rotate your thighs, your knees are not overly stressed.
Anyone else practice this way?
-FJ