Xing Yi - 5 Element Fist and Linking

[EternalSpring]

Long Story short, I've been cross training Xing Yi with a friend for ~2 months and recently just finished learning the 5 element fists (i think that's what it's called: pi, zuan, pao, beng, heng).

For the record, this isn't my primary art, but I have heard great things about the 5 element fist even to the point that some of the original famous fighters of XingYi only knew these fists and did not know the 12 animal forms (not sure how true this is though but i can def believe it). That said, I was wondering how different is the linking form from just knowing the 5 fists? Of course I realize that even my understanding of these 5 fists is very small and must grow, but is the "linking form" a "cut and paste" of these 5 fists in a certain order?

and for the sake of being more specific, i think i remember my friend saying that the XingYi we've been training is Shanxi Che style.

[Sima Rong]

For the record, this isn't my primary art, but I have heard great things about the 5 element fist even to the point that some of the original famous fighters of XingYi only knew these fists and did not know the 12 animal forms (not sure how true this is though but i can def believe it)

Hi there!
I'm not familiar with the style of Xing Yi you are doing, but when I was training for a very short stint in Xinyi Liuhe Quan in China, they pretty exclusively trained in 10 (well that was Henan Xinyi ) animal styles. A Xing Yi practioner might completely disagree with me, but I'm not sure if you could leave out the training of the animal forms and still have the essence of the art. Then again, maybe the arts are quite different from one another.
Maybe it is that they weren't masters of all the animal forms but could still fight with the ones that they were good at. Some of the guys that I saw that focused on a few forms almost exclusively, together with some conditioning, could fight quite well.

[EternalSpring]

Hi there!
I'm not familiar with the style of Xing Yi you are doing, but when I was training for a very short stint in Xinyi Liuhe Quan in China, they pretty exclusively trained in 10 (well that was Henan Xinyi ) animal styles. A Xing Yi practioner might completely disagree with me, but I'm not sure if you could leave out the training of the animal forms and still have the essence of the art. Then again, maybe the arts are quite different from one another.
Maybe it is that they weren't masters of all the animal forms but could still fight with the ones that they were good at. Some of the guys that I saw that focused on a few forms almost exclusively, together with some conditioning, could fight quite well.

Hey, thanks for the response!

I actually did a bunch of reading when I started cross training Xing Yi and I did read about Xinyi Liuhe Quan having 10 animal forms instead of 12. I could totally understand what you're saying though, especially with how perhaps some masters were focused and especially proficient with certain forms or movements as opposed to others.

The way I was viewing it was based on my "primary" kung fu system, Ving Tsun. When I started, my Sifu and even a lot of other people always said that our first form pretty much contained everything of the style within it. I always used to wonder how that was possible until I kept learning more and realized, "oh, wow, all the stuff is indeed within the first form, but you'd either have to be a super genius or have a ton of experience to figure it out!." I was thinking that perhaps it was like this with Xing Yi and the 5 element fists, which would be great. But then again, perhaps the same applies for most if not all styles/systems.

[Empty_Cup]

Long Story short, I've been cross training Xing Yi with a friend for ~2 months and recently just finished learning the 5 element fists (i think that's what it's called: pi, zuan, pao, beng, heng).

For the record, this isn't my primary art, but I have heard great things about the 5 element fist even to the point that some of the original famous fighters of XingYi only knew these fists and did not know the 12 animal forms (not sure how true this is though but i can def believe it). That said, I was wondering how different is the linking form from just knowing the 5 fists? Of course I realize that even my understanding of these 5 fists is very small and must grow, but is the "linking form" a "cut and paste" of these 5 fists in a certain order?

and for the sake of being more specific, i think i remember my friend saying that the XingYi we've been training is Shanxi Che style.

Funny you started this thread, as we were just talking Xingyi in another thread. Glad you started this one in the proper place.

The 5 element fists are building block techniques for the linkage form. While I haven't learned the linkage form, I've seen it enough times and walked through it enough to see the linkages. If you have a strong foundation in the 5 element fists, then the only real new thing to learn with Linkage is transitional movements and direction changes. There are a few additional techniques but nothing too crazy.

I'll try getting brucereiter to comment on this thread as he's spent a lot of time studying the internal side and we were having a good discussion in another thread.

[doug maverick]

ive been practicing xing yi and honestly i have to disagree with empty cup... the five fist are the foundation of xing yi.. they arent building blocks to the linking form..they are the core of xing yi along with santi shi, and nei gong. i didnt even learn the linking form until i could use the five elements in combination(which is the purpose of the linking form, to learn how to tranform from one fist to the other, like boxing). so i had hours of bag work, in order to use the various fist, and then my sifu would still add something, like the idea that every step in xing yi is kick, every block is a strike, and being able to add that to my training, and then i learned the linking form, but by that time it was more for posterity.. as for people not learning the 12 animals... guo yun shin.. learned the five fist from li lou neng and thought he didnt need anything else, but chi yi chai schooled him and he went back to learn the rest of the system.. you could probably learn the entire xing yi system in 6 months..but it will be empty, you have to train, the five fist, for a long time, along with santi and nei gong, to really make your xing yi strong..everything else will fall into place.

[Sima Rong]

The way I was viewing it was based on my "primary" kung fu system, Ving Tsun.

Xing Yi seems a strange art to cross-train in for a Ving Tsun stylist though. Wouldn't the way you use your body be completely different?

[Empty_Cup]

ive been practicing xing yi and honestly i have to disagree with empty cup... the five fist are the foundation of xing yi.. they arent building blocks to the linking form..they are the core of xing yi along with santi shi, and nei gong. i didnt even learn the linking form until i could use the five elements in combination(which is the purpose of the linking form, to learn how to tranform from one fist to the other, like boxing). so i had hours of bag work, in order to use the various fist, and then my sifu would still add something, like the idea that every step in xing yi is kick, every block is a strike, and being able to add that to my training, and then i learned the linking form, but by that time it was more for posterity.. as for people not learning the 12 animals... guo yun shin.. learned the five fist from li lou neng and thought he didnt need anything else, but chi yi chai schooled him and he went back to learn the rest of the system.. you could probably learn the entire xing yi system in 6 months..but it will be empty, you have to train, the five fist, for a long time, along with santi and nei gong, to really make your xing yi strong..everything else will fall into place.

I agree with what doug maverick says here. After re-reading my earlier post I see how it got interpreted. The intent of my post was not to downplay the 5 fists but rather to say that the linking form is built from them. I agree the linking form is not the end goal of xingyi.

[EternalSpring]

Funny you started this thread, as we were just talking Xingyi in another thread. Glad you started this one in the proper place.

The 5 element fists are building block techniques for the linkage form. While I haven't learned the linkage form, I've seen it enough times and walked through it enough to see the linkages. If you have a strong foundation in the 5 element fists, then the only real new thing to learn with Linkage is transitional movements and direction changes. There are a few additional techniques but nothing too crazy.

I'll try getting brucereiter to comment on this thread as he's spent a lot of time studying the internal side and we were having a good discussion in another thread.

Nice, I'm glad there are other people who are willing to discuss this stuff!

And thanks, what you mentioned was exactly what i was wondering about. So the linkage form, it's more of a method of using the 5 element theory to "arrange" the fists?

[EternalSpring]

ive been practicing xing yi and honestly i have to disagree with empty cup... the five fist are the foundation of xing yi.. they arent building blocks to the linking form..they are the core of xing yi along with santi shi, and nei gong. i didnt even learn the linking form until i could use the five elements in combination(which is the purpose of the linking form, to learn how to tranform from one fist to the other, like boxing). so i had hours of bag work, in order to use the various fist, and then my sifu would still add something, like the idea that every step in xing yi is kick, every block is a strike, and being able to add that to my training, and then i learned the linking form, but by that time it was more for posterity.. as for people not learning the 12 animals... guo yun shin.. learned the five fist from li lou neng and thought he didnt need anything else, but chi yi chai schooled him and he went back to learn the rest of the system.. you could probably learn the entire xing yi system in 6 months..but it will be empty, you have to train, the five fist, for a long time, along with santi and nei gong, to really make your xing yi strong..everything else will fall into place.

I see what you mean. I def wouldn't doubt that the 5 fists should be trained hard to build a solid foundation. The applications seem endless from the very beginning. Even though you didn't learn the linking form, I'm guessing you were still training the linking concepts to do the combinations? If so, that's pretty exciting to learn as well.

[EternalSpring]

I agree with what doug maverick says here. After re-reading my earlier post I see how it got interpreted. The intent of my post was not to downplay the 5 fists but rather to say that the linking form is built from them. I agree the linking form is not the end goal of xingyi.

oh yea, it's all good. I actually didn't think you were saying that anyways.

[YouKnowWho]

This form came from 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi). You can see it's more than just 5 elments.

郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) -> 常东升(Chang Dong Sheng)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKJyd43is0

劉緯祥（1864 - 1936）， 河北省河間府人。8歲時從劉曉嵐習八極拳，14歲時從形意拳名家郭雲深習形意拳，以後又得名師宋世榮、白西 園兩先生指點。經多年苦修，技遂精湛。以驍勇善鬥，講求實戰稱著武林，時人皆以“劉二彪子”稱之。為近代形 意拳技擊實驗派代表人物之一。馬禮堂的武術老師。
Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), Hebei hejian Fu people. At the age of 8 from bajiquan Liu Xiaolan acquisition, at the age of 14 from a famous xingyi Quan Guo Yun deep practiced boxing, later famous Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two directions. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor good governance, emphasis on practical martial art, people are "Liu Erbiao". One of representatives of modern boxing art experiment. Horse Hall of martial arts teachers.

[EternalSpring]

Xing Yi seems a strange art to cross-train in for a Ving Tsun stylist though. Wouldn't the way you use your body be completely different?

I actually find the little that I know about Xing Yi so far to be very similar to what I've learned in Ving TSun, except it's not really a superficial similarity and I also think the things taught in the system are taught at different times which makes it a bit harder to see as well.

To explain it briefly and hoping it makes sense;

I like how Xing Yi trains the stance and movements fairly early, and not just any movement but very powerful forward movement. Traditionally (at least as far as i know), Ving Tsun starts refining single techniques in a static stance before moving. Then I also feel that the 5 fists, even thought they're called "5 fists," they encompass a lot of individual techniques as I know them from Ving Tsun, but of course they do all have their differences. I guess it's hard to notice in the first Ving Tsun form alone, but the other forms and pole training (which imo is similar to a spear kinda) together make the 5 fists seem, not natural, but at least not very foreign or uncomfortable. Instead it's just like "oh wow, this is so cool, if i train this a lot it'll be awesome!"

[doug maverick]

I see what you mean. I def wouldn't doubt that the 5 fists should be trained hard to build a solid foundation. The applications seem endless from the very beginning. Even though you didn't learn the linking form, I'm guessing you were still training the linking concepts to do the combinations? If so, that's pretty exciting to learn as well.

no i didnt learn the linking form...but by that time i learned it, i could already use the five fist in a multiple different ways...to be honest even now..i dont practice all my xing yi.. i do the five fist, dragon, horse, tiger, bear and eagle.

[Sima Rong]

Instead it's just like "oh wow, this is so cool, if i train this a lot it'll be awesome!"

Great! I'm glad it works for you. :)

Just don't impale yourself on a tree branch, like Zhang Gen in the legend. :D

[brucereiter]

i think of the "roads" or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.

once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.

[tattooedmonk]

absolutely Bruce.

The application isnt as important as applying the principles.

The 5 roads are just 5 different ways of applying them and can be applied x5 as well. So you have fire metal, fire water, fire earth , fire wood , etc.

I love Xin Yi Quan.

[brucereiter]

absolutely Bruce.

The application isnt as important as applying the principles.

The 5 roads are just 5 different ways of applying them and can be applied x5 as well. So you have fire metal, fire water, fire earth , fire wood , etc.

I love Xin Yi Quan.

i personally would rather be taught a "principal" than a technique. hsing i is good at that i think.
if my mass moves like this then your mass must move like that in order to create and destroy opportunity.

pi chuan has a principal that is found through out hsing i. this principle is that all body parts start and stop at the same time in there delivery of mass. this is the most efficient way to use your whole body.

the 6 harmonies must be observed for the "correct" body alignment to deliver the max mass and the max speed. one of "harmonies" says that your elbow and knee move together. this is a good one to start with since it cause the other harmonies to be used too.

>>>Hsing I chuan “song of san ti” three body position.
As taught by jiang rong qiao.

Body:
If you lean to the front or rear this form will not move.
Leaning to the left or right side are both bad for the body.
It is erect yet seems inclined, It is inclined yet seems erect.

Shoulders:
The head pushes upwards.The shoulders hand downwards.
If the left shoulder is twisted then the right shoulder will follow.
Then the bodies strength will arrive at the hands, the shoulder position makes it so.

Arms:
The left arm reaches to the front. The right arm is by the ribs.
They are like being bent without being bent.
They are like straight without being straight.
If it is to curved it will not reach far enough.
If it is to straight there will not be enough strength.

Hands:
The right hand is by the ribs.
The left hand is even with the chest (tip of fingers at mouth height)
The hand in the rear slightly rubs.
The hand in the front strongly reaches out.
Between both hands front and back the use of strength is equal.

Fingers:
The five fingers are each spread out
Their forms are like hooks.
The tigers mouths are fully round.
Strength must arrive at the fingers But it must not be forced.

Legs:
The left leg is in front.
The right leg supports the rear
They are like being bent without being bent.
They are like straight without being straight.

Feet:
The left foot points straight to the front.
Pointing diagonally or sideways is not good.
The right foot posture is diagonal
The front foot heel is in line with the rear foot ankle.

Tongue:
The tongue is the extremity of the flesh.
If it is curled the chi descends.
The eyes are open, the hair must rise up.
The dantian must sink

Buttocks:
Raise the buttocks and the chi will permeate the four extremities.
The buttocks muscles come together.
If it is to low the posture is broken.
Therefore it is proper to raise it slightly.

<<<

[omarthefish]

absolutely Bruce.

The application isnt as important as applying the principles.

The 5 roads are just 5 different ways of applying them and can be applied x5 as well. So you have fire metal, fire water, fire earth , fire wood , etc.

I love Xin Yi Quan.

Sorry to be pedantic here but it's XinG Yi Quan.

It's not just a minor misspelling because there is a related but completely distinct martial art style called xin yi. The two should not be confused.

[doug maverick]

xin yi is also correct.

[omarthefish]

xin yi is also correct.

No. It is not. It is an entirely different word which refers to an entirely different style of martial art.

xinyi: 心意

xingyi:形意
心vs. 形

Two entirely different martial arts. Historically related but quite distinct.

================================================== =
p.s.
They sound extremely similar and that's why, in most cases, I wouldn't bother with making such a point about the distinction but, in this case it's the difference between a Panda that eat shoots and leaves and one that eats, shoots and leaves.

[Sima Rong]

They do seem somewhat different...I started talking about the animal forms, which are pretty essential to Xinyi I think, and it seems that with Xing Yi you concentrate on 5 fists and the san ti stance. I don't know enough about Xinyi, even Henan Xinyi Liuhe, to know if they use 5 fists at all, or whether they are encapsulated in animal forms.

[Empty_Cup]

No. It is not. It is an entirely different word which refers to an entirely different style of martial art.

xinyi: 心意

xingyi:形意
心vs. 形

Two entirely different martial arts. Historically related but quite distinct.

================================================== =
p.s.
They sound extremely similar and that's why, in most cases, I wouldn't bother with making such a point about the distinction but, in this case it's the difference between a Panda that eat shoots and leaves and one that eats, shoots and leaves.

+1

I think the waters get muddied a lot because if you google Xin Yi you get lots of hits on "xinyi/xingyi" and the like. Can you elaborate more on Xin Yi, omar?

[GeneChing]

I really enjoyed it. I learned the five elements and the twelve animals, but the twevle didn't really stick as I didn't train them for as long or as well. Xingyi really came alive for me when I started doing An Shen Pao (安身炮) the two-man drill form. Of course, I was doing that with Tony Chen (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=453), so it brought me up to speed pretty quickly. When he moved on, I couldn't sustain it sadly.

Here's the Xingyi DVD series we produced with Liang Shouyu, Helen Liang, Yang Chenhan and Tony Chen.
Xing Yi 5 Elements Fists (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh013.html)
Xing Yi Twelve Animals Fist (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh014.html)
Selection of Traditional Xing Yi Fist Forms (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh015.html)
5 Elements Xingyi Staff & Spear (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh005.html)
12 Animals Xingyi Staff & Spear (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh007.html)
5 Elements Xingyi Sword (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh006.html)
12 Animals Xingyi Sword (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh008.html)
This is the exact curriculum that I trained in under Shifu Tony and I'm rather embarrassed to admit that I've let that all go. I could probably still recite the 5 Elements hand form, and often think I should recover that 5 Elements Sword because I really loved it, but I'm too lazy and have enough on my plate now with my Shaolin practice. :o I even wrote an article on it: Xingyi's Dadao: The Lost Legacy of the Big Blade Troop in our 2006 March/April issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=646).


otf is right. Xinyi and Xingyi are different. To make matters more confusing, I currently train Changhu Xinyi Men (长护心意门) which is a completely unrelated Songshan Shaolin form.

[omarthefish]

+1

I think the waters get muddied a lot because if you google Xin Yi you get lots of hits on "xinyi/xingyi" and the like. Can you elaborate more on Xin Yi, omar?
Not really. Better to head over to rumsoakedfist.org and ask somebody who actually trains it. I have done a bit of Xingyi, really a tiny bit, and I have seen plenty of Xinyi. There's a couple guys who show up at the demos I go to and I've even got a shixiong who used to train it but I can't speak with any authority on the differences. I only know that "they" say that Xingyi evolved out of Xinyi. If I wasn't familiar with the history, from just looking at them, I would never have guessed that they were related. The look extremely different to me.

I'll assume you've all seen plenty of xingyi before. This is what xinyi looks like:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_cb00XOTk2NjEwNA==.html

I know of some clips I like better on youtube but I can't access it from China today. Maybe later.

[EternalSpring]

Feet:
The left foot points straight to the front.
Pointing diagonally or sideways is not good.
The right foot posture is diagonal
The front foot heel is in line with the rear foot ankle.


This was something I've been thinking about. Though I've seen it as described above in nearly every video or picture, the way I'm being taught San Ti we have the back foot pointing straight and the front foot at around 45 degrees with the toes lined up. Has anyone seen this type of san ti in other lineages? I figured it might have been some sort of family specific difference at best.

[xinyidizi]

There are many variations of xinyi. One can easily see the similarity between xinyiliuhe and dai xinyi. It's also possible to see the similarity between dai xinyi and xingyi, however the similarity between xingyi and xinyiliuhe might be harder to see. Personally I think xingyi can be considered as part of xinyi however xinyi can not be called xingyi as it includes all of the sub-styles.

[Matthew]

There are many variations of xinyi. One can easily see the similarity between xinyiliuhe and dai xinyi. It's also possible to see the similarity between dai xinyi and xingyi, however the similarity between xingyi and xinyiliuhe might be harder to see. Personally I think xingyi can be considered as part of xinyi however xinyi can not be called xingyi as it includes all of the sub-styles.

Really interesting- I can't say I've had a XinYi or XingYi teacher, but the said highest goal of what I practice is "XinYiBa" (to understand XinYi could be a translation).

Shi De Jian master tells in one of his Chinese books about his first times in Shaolin. He was showing the XingYi he learned to some masters who would become his teachers -and then they imitated and replicated it.

When De Jian Master asked "you [know how to] practice XingYi Too?" Shi De Chan master (Shaolin abbot after XingZhen) mentioned that XingYi came from Shaolin, and it was previously written in the records (before being destroyed). Just as Chen Style Taiji.

Externally the forms look similar between Shi De Jian master. The practice starts with Zhan Zhuang and very specific breathing/mental elaborations.

In this way, the XinYiBa may have represented the historical link to Shaolin between XinYi, or from where it was originally incubated.

Seperately:
Yi Quan founder Wang XiangZhai was also reported to believe XingYi essense is no longer understood or transmitted effectively, as it originally had no emphasis on outer form when compared to inner essence. He extensively taught Zhan Zhuang and Zhan Zhuang variations and named the style in honor of early styles utilizing "Yi" (intent) of XinYi/XingYi in honor of this

[EternalSpring]

Great! I'm glad it works for you. :)

Just don't impale yourself on a tree branch, like Zhang Gen in the legend. :D

I shall gladly follow this advice!


i think of the "roads" or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.

once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.

Oh wow, I can vaguely understand what you mean but I'm sure it'll come clear with more training. How would you view the animal forms in light of the the roads as being methods of delivering mass in 5 different directions?

[mawali]

This form came from 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi). You can see it's more than just 5 elments.

郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) -> 常东升(Chang Dong Sheng)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKJyd43is0

劉緯祥（1864 - 1936）， 河北省河間府人。8歲時從劉曉嵐習八極拳，14歲時從形意拳名家郭雲深習形意拳，以後又得名師宋世榮、白西 園兩先生指點。經多年苦修，技遂精湛。以驍勇善鬥，講求實戰稱著武林，時人皆以“劉二彪子”稱之。為近代形 意拳技擊實驗派代表人物之一。馬禮堂的武術老師。
Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), Hebei hejian Fu people. At the age of 8 from bajiquan Liu Xiaolan acquisition, at the age of 14 from a famous xingyi Quan Guo Yun deep practiced boxing, later famous Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two directions. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor good governance, emphasis on practical martial art, people are "Liu Erbiao". One of representatives of modern boxing art experiment. Horse Hall of martial arts teachers.

I learnt it from student of Chang Dong Sheng in Chicago over 20 years ago!

[doug maverick]

i think of the "roads" or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.

once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.

original the five elements were five different, i guess theories on how one should issue power. it was li lou neng who solidified them into technique... xing yi is probably the only martial art, that and im talking about in the five element perspective..looks like boxing. and i feel over the years boxing has influenced the style.

[brucereiter]

I shall gladly follow this advice!



Oh wow, I can vaguely understand what you mean but I'm sure it'll come clear with more training. How would you view the animal forms in light of the the roads as being methods of delivering mass in 5 different directions?

i have not put very much time into the animals (tiger and snake are the only ones i still practice) i prefer the 5 fists and the linking form for my personal hsing i practice.

maybe in a broad sense the animals do the same thing. for example the snake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUSEVjzlpmo&list=UU_bOaCAreE6ZH-Kl1AF49vw&index=15&feature=plcp

it transfers mass in a different direction than any of the five fists.

the dragon goes more up and down etc. one of the things i look for in forms or martial arts movements is what makes it different what angle is it attacking or defending? what direction is my mass going?

[brucereiter]

original the five elements were five different, i guess theories on how one should issue power. it was li lou neng who solidified them into technique... xing yi is probably the only martial art, that and im talking about in the five element perspective..looks like boxing. and i feel over the years boxing has influenced the style.
there are many similarities with hsing i and boxing.

[EternalSpring]

So I've been cross training Xing Yi (and Bagua) now with the same friend for close to a year and I've definitely come to have more of an understanding of the answers to the questions i've asked in the past. At this point, I have a better understanding of the 5 elements and have been training what's called an "Advance-Retreat Linking Form," though I'm not sure if that's the actual "linking form," but when i compare it with forms I see online, there are many similarities and differences so i cant really make a conclusion on that matter.

In addition to this, I've also been occasionally training a movement called "squatting monkey" which has helped me understand a lot about the full body movement in the elements. I think the Xing Yi I'm learning can best be described as a combination of Shanxi Che Xing Yi, Dai Xin Yi, and Xin Yi Dao. Honestly, I'm not sure where exactly the "forms" i know are from out of this group of systems.

For anyone who reads this thread wondering about the same things I mentioned in the OP, here's a list of what I've learned over time:

1. Like many mentioned, the 5 elements are more about different "roads" to use your energy (i actually didn't really understand this when others mentioned it, but i do understand more now and I'm sure there's a lot to go). I'm still a newbie, so the easiest way I could explain it in an example is that the way the body expresses it's energy through something like Pao Chuan from start to finish covers different angles and directions than the other elements. In delivering mass, I realized this could refer to how one delivers his own mass/body as well as taking in, nullifying, and sending back another person's mass.

2. At least as far as the advance-retreat linking form that I learned goes, it's not simply different combinations of elements but rather the concepts of the elements expressed while moving back/forth/diagonally/etc. Also, it's like the movements contain circles that are non stop from the beginning of the form to the end.

All in all, xing yi is a wonderful and effective art, and one that I'm very glad to be cross training in

[MarathonTmatt]

Xing-Yi is a great internal art.
My main focuses at the moment however are Hua Quan Boixing (traditional Northern long-fist), & Tai Chi Quan routines.
My Tai Chi teacher offers cross-training in Xing Yi Quan, which I have trained for a couple years now. I also took several seminars for it @ a YMAA school, the original school in Jamaica Plains MA.
With all of the other training I do as a main focus, and even various other cross-training, my Xing-Yi has never really been at the fore-front of my focus, although I really like the style and try to get into it. The YMAA school stopped offering seminars for it (they changed location), and my Tai Chi teacher is always visiting China, focusing more and more on her Chinese Medicine clinic as she gets older, etc.
But- anyway- I think- Sant Ti Shi stance is very important. The stance is a real stinker to get the correct postural alignment- weight on the back leg, w/ a forward/ downward force at play w/ everything lined up, and one must be "sung", relaxed (internal training.) sometimes my teacher combines this posture w/ the tai chi position "standing at a post" position- 5 minutes santi shi to one side, shift into post position in the middle, then santi shi to the other side. This seems to work well and mixes it up when training the static posture. then of course 10, 15 min. etc.
I believe the 5 element fists (Pi, Beng, Zuan, Pao, Hung) are foundational also. I was trained to perform them A) to both sides from a standing position (ma bu); B) up and down a line for many reps, and C) w/ a partner- for instance Pi blocks Beng, etc. these of course are just "shallow" interpretations of the application but it stresses proper execution of the technique and muscle memory. Also we worked on striking for Beng Quan (pushing the other person across the room w/ the striking energy).
Also cross-training in several styles you get those "ah-ha" moments. The same techniques are found in Hua Quan, Chen style Tai Chi and Xing Yi, they are just expressed differently, such as Pi Quan used for a joint-lock/ take-down, Hua and Chen styles have similar/ same application just with a stylistic difference expressed. If I didn't cross train I would not be where I am at today (on an actual learning curve).
My Tai Chi teacher trained me in a Xing Yi small linking form and a long linking form. They are both good- the small linking form is very basic, pretty much just the 5 elements, not much more thrown in, linked together. The long linking form introduces a slew of new concepts, different postures/ technique, etc, it definitely has more flavor to it, it feels like a well-rounded out complete kung fu form.
Just thought I would share my experience w/ Xing Yi Quan on this thread.