Foward Energy - Biu Ma [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Yoshiyahu

09-29-2012, 11:07 AM

Bacon

09-29-2012, 11:19 PM

I think in the first video it didn't really matter because the guy was wearing jeans and so couldn't pull of any ranged kicks at height and the other guy was twice his weight.

The second video the guy got all slap happy and pressured him back into the mirror and broke it but there wasn't a single good solid strike in there.

hulkout

09-30-2012, 05:20 AM

I don't know anything about Shannon Moore's Wing Chun skills and background, but I do know that he's a huge fat slob! I mean seriously, what the hell? Get yourself in some kind of half decent shape. And don't tell me that his skill or his sensitivity or whatever is more important. All other things being equal, a better conditioned person will always be a better fighter. Not to mention healthier with reduced risk of diabetes, heart disease, joint problems, and injuries. Honestly, what is it with fat slob masters? There's tons of them.

SAAMAG

09-30-2012, 11:49 AM

That first video only illustrates what happens when a freight train collides with a Kia. Not to mention that neither one of them showed any real skill in fighting to be honest. It was just mess. And if that karate guy was a black belt....then I'm Jackie Chan.

The second video wasn't really proof of anything. There was no real contact. Throwing high volume punches that do no damage only makes one guy tired and one guy annoyed. Oh...and it breaks furniture.

wingchunIan

10-01-2012, 02:40 AM

pmsl
there was no wing chun in the first clip at all from either party and if the guy in the jeans had had any lateral movement the big fella would have been chewing wall.
The second clip only proves the point that putting on a pair of shorts does not make you a thai boxer any more than buying a gi makes you a karate master. If the guy had been half competent at MT he would have put in a teep to maintain the distance, had some oomph in his hands and as soon as the range closed would have looked to clinch and / or throw knees.
We all get annoyed when **** poor muppets are passed off as Wing Chun fighters so why do the same with other arts......

LoneTiger108

10-01-2012, 04:22 AM

I wanted to share a couple of videos which i thought made good use of the Biu Ma and Toh Ma footwork and forward energy!

Tell me what you think?

Wing Chun Punch using stiff arm with whole body structure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufq_BaiRYoY)

THE ABOVE VIDEO HE BASICALLY TOH MA OR BIU MA WITH SOLID PUNCHES HE USES TO UPROOT AND DESTROY HIS OPPONENTS STRUCTURE.

Continous Punching with Toh Ma to jam opponents space and keep the gap closed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtpLNp24UUM)

I find it interesting that these sorts of videos have sprung up after the Ip Man movies in an attempt to show how great Wing Chun is against other styles! And to be fair, at least in these two clips they show how easy it is to beat someone who is sh!t at Martial Arts.

But it's boring to watch imho.

And I have nothing against guys being over weight and to even suggest that you have to be 'healthy' to do Martial Arts is almost taking away the original concept of Wing Chun. We are a system for 'everybody'. We are all-inclusive so get off your high horse and give credit where it is due... because from what I saw Sifu Moore owned the guy, and probably taught him a sweet lesson in Martial Conduct!!

If you attend someones seminar and mouth off, be prepared to put your fists up!! :rolleyes:

As for 'Karate' man or whatever, I would have done better than that when I was 12 :D

JPinAZ

10-01-2012, 08:48 AM

If you attend someones seminar and mouth off, be prepared to put your fists up!! :rolleyes:

As for 'Karate' man or whatever, I would have done better than that when I was 12 :D

Agreed and agreed.
I don't think Sifu Moore's weight matters when talking about his skill. He moves very quick for his size and seems to have very decent skill from seeing his other clips (but I do feel his size helps once he plows fwd after he owns the line).
That 'karate man' didn't look to have any skill at all and should be embarrassed he steped up at the seminar/workshop.

Wayfaring

10-01-2012, 09:45 AM

I think in the first video it didn't really matter because the guy was wearing jeans and so couldn't pull of any ranged kicks at height and the other guy was twice his weight.

It looked like a local businessman type was challenging Moore's teachings at one of his seminars or something. The question had something to do with how to deal with long-range kicks, then Moore just blasted thru some weak sauce kick attempts on both engagements and pursued on the centerline.

The jeans guy / businessman type was more arguing theory as opposed to being a skilled fighter to be able to pull off what he was talking about.

I don't like the bull rush thru center tactics shown. It is effective against lower level guys, but once you get someone trained they will angle step off instead of going straight back and probably land the lead hand hook or a cross on the other side. You have to pursue and advance in a balanced fashion, not getting all out over your lead foot pursuing.

Bacon

10-01-2012, 11:43 AM

Agreed and agreed.
I don't think Sifu Moore's weight matters when talking about his skill.

Not if it was against someone his own weight. If you fight someone 100 lbs heavier than you it really doesn't matter so much about their skill because they can just walk through you. Now there are exceptions but there is a reason combat sports use weight classes.

JPinAZ

10-01-2012, 12:12 PM

Not if it was against someone his own weight. If you fight someone 100 lbs heavier than you it really doesn't matter so much about their skill because they can just walk through you. Now there are exceptions but there is a reason combat sports use weight classes.

Maybe you should have quoted my entire post, because I also said "but I do feel his size helps once he plows fwd after he owns the line"

I was trying to make the distinction that I believe Shannon Moore has skill on TOP OF his size. Basically I don't believe he's good because of size alone. A lot of big, out of shape guys are worse because of it. While it surely helps in some cases, I don't believe size trumps skill as you are saying above.

Bacon

10-01-2012, 12:55 PM

Maybe you should have quoted my entire post, because I also said "but I do feel his size helps once he plows fwd after he owns the line"

I was trying to make the distinction that I believe Shannon Moore has skill on TOP OF his size. Basically I don't believe he's good because of size alone. A lot of big, out of shape guys are worse because of it. While it surely helps in some cases, I don't believe size trumps skill as you are saying above.

I just wanted to deal with that bit on its own.. Not to misquote.

And size doesn't trump skill but you must have significantly more skill to make up for the size advantage. Once you get to a certain size and weight difference though no amount of skill is really going to save you. As the old saying goes, "God made men. Smith and Wesson made them equal."

I don't care how good Demetrius Johnson gets there's no way he could ever beat Brock Lesnar even if Lesnar wasn't a great wrestler.

imperialtaichi

10-01-2012, 09:07 PM

I do like the idea of forcing someone back, because if the opponent cannot balance, he cannot generate power in his strike either. You don't always have to strike the opponent straight away, you can do it when he is down or forced into a wall/table/sharp object.

HOWEVER, these are NOT good clips; if the opponent is half decent in his kicking, striking and moving, you are not going to maintain you power when you crash into his weapons. There's more to forcing the opponent back then crashing into him in a straight line.

Btw, welcome to the forum Mr. Chan. :p

anerlich

10-01-2012, 10:52 PM

I don't know why people post clips like this. I remember the huge hoo-ha with the "Gary Lam incident" which proved nothing other than that everyone involved was an idiot.

I've heard good things about Shannon Moore, but jeez, carrying that amount of weight just CANNOT be healthy.

"to even suggest that you have to be 'healthy' to do Martial Arts is almost taking away the original concept of Wing Chun"

I don't know for sure what the original concept of WC was (you probably don't either), but I don't think it had a lot to do with morbid obesity. I do think a Sifu has to lead by example. Mr Moore may have a condition that doesn't give him the choice, so I'll give him the benefit.

duende

10-01-2012, 11:40 PM

To be that fat and to utilize footwork that bad... This guy's a Sifu? By who's standards?

He just uses his gut to occupy space and press forward. The opponents can't reach him without crosses a bridge of fat. He then leans over his own fat to fall into his opponent while striking.

One fast kick in the knee and then get out of the way.

What an embarrassment to martial science.

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 01:38 AM

I don't know for sure what the original concept of WC was (you probably don't either), but I don't think it had a lot to do with morbid obesity.

Listen, all I am saying is that you don't have to be healthy to be good at Wing Chun, or to start learning it. It was designed for the average man and woman, according to my learning. It wasn't intended to be an athletic endeavor, but these ideas naturally intersect with the systems development through the men who have had influence on it.

And I know the difference between just learning as a hobby and throwing yourself deeply into the art itself for your life. Going under the banner of a traditional Sifu is not an easy task, let alone moving on from that and developing as an individual.

What I see today tends to be people that have picked up tricks from multi-seminars and then teaching it as they please, and that will result in a very basic shadow of what we know Wing Chun to be. Yes, that will work against a hobby dude, just as the clips show, but don't expect to get anywhere against someone that has taken their learning further than a once a week pass time.

hulkout

10-02-2012, 02:32 AM

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1189992]Listen, all I am saying is that you don't have to be healthy to be good at Wing Chun, or to start learning it. It was designed for the average man and woman, according to my learning. It wasn't intended to be an athletic endeavor, but these ideas naturally intersect with the systems development through the men who have had influence on it.

I'm not saying that you have to be a world class triathlete or olympic lifter, but discipline goes hand in hand with real martial arts mastery. If you have the title of sifu, you have a responsibility to demonstrate that discilpine to your students. It's kind of hard to look at someone as disciplined when he's obviously eaten far more than his share of KFC and Krispy Kreme donuts and has a gut so big he can't see his own *****. Wing Chun was designed for the average person without huge size or strength, but conditioning has always been a big part of Wing Chun training. You may not need to be super strong, but cardiovascular conditioning, balance, and other attributes built up through conditioning is vital for all martial arts. These things are not possible with someone who's morbidly obese and all other things being equal, his fighting ability will be worse than someone who is conditioned.

And why is that whenever people see a fat person, they give him the benefit of the doubt and think he may have some medical condition? Almost half the population in the US is fat, more in some states. I suppose the entire genetic code has been rewritten in the past 30 years or could it be that people are just eating too much crap?

LoneTiger108

10-02-2012, 02:48 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TrMahkuvo

Now I'm not saying that everyone who is obese needs to be like Sammo, but he is a great example of going against stereotypical thinking imho. And he is very proud of his Wing Chun learning too :)

hulkout

10-02-2012, 09:24 AM

Hey, I love Sammo too. His films are great and the fact that he's fat and can move like he does makes him more entertaining. But the fact remains that he would be better if he wasn't fat. And don't forget that he had a heart attack a few years ago. Practicing martial arts and not giving a crap about your health doesn't really go together. The fact that you can do Wing Chun while being in bad shape doesn't make it ideal. You can also a drive a rusted out 86 Ford Taurus. It'll get you around but nowhere near as good.

Vajramusti

10-02-2012, 09:50 AM

Sammo had a heart attack during the making of one of the Ip Man movies.

I was in LA for the filming of one of Sammo's old US TV series. One street near the set- a cafe- was blocked off for the filming.

Yoshiyahu

10-02-2012, 01:30 PM

Dude your funnny AS hell...I literally LOL at work when i read this...wow..man...i cant believe you stated that...just pure comedy!

To be that fat and to utilize footwork that bad... This guy's a Sifu? By who's standards?

He just uses his gut to occupy space and press forward. The opponents can't reach him without crosses a bridge of fat. He then leans over his own fat to fall into his opponent while striking.

One fast kick in the knee and then get out of the way.

What an embarrassment to martial science.

anerlich

10-02-2012, 02:59 PM

It was designed for the average man and woman,

There's nothing average about that level of overweight.

This is Wing Chun, not Sumo.

And I know the difference between just learning as a hobby and throwing yourself deeply into the art itself for your life. Going under the banner of a traditional Sifu is not an easy task, let alone moving on from that and developing as an individual.

What's that got to do with the subject of the thread or the flow of the discussion?

And why is that whenever people see a fat person, they give him the benefit of the doubt and think he may have some medical condition?

Just trying to be nice, I guess. I too have some trouble grasping how someone can put in years or decades of training at the intensity necessary to get good enough to call oneself a Sifu and still stay enormous, unless there's something else going on.

And, yeah, Samo was never THAT big.

Wayfaring

10-02-2012, 08:52 PM

Not if it was against someone his own weight. If you fight someone 100 lbs heavier than you it really doesn't matter so much about their skill because they can just walk through you. Now there are exceptions but there is a reason combat sports use weight classes.

Yeah, now I remember. He asked if there were any more questions at the end of his demo.

I have a question.

I hear that for about $10,000 you can get Butterbean in a ring. If someone came up with that money, would you get in the ring with Butterbean for all of our entertainment?

Then we could make a proper evaluation of the forward energy - biu ma displayed in that video.

:D

anerlich

10-02-2012, 11:32 PM

I hear that for about $10,000 you can get Butterbean in a ring.

Not quite sure what point you are making, but the comparatively diminutive Genki Sudo beat Butterbean pretty handily:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeus1o_fight-videos-butterbean-vs-genki-su_lifestyle

Bacon

10-03-2012, 12:28 AM

Yeah, now I remember. He asked if there were any more questions at the end of his demo.

I have a question.

I hear that for about $10,000 you can get Butterbean in a ring. If someone came up with that money, would you get in the ring with Butterbean for all of our entertainment?

Then we could make a proper evaluation of the forward energy - biu ma displayed in that video.

:D

I've got an even better idea.
You guys come up with the 10k plus another 10k to bet. Bet on me to win.
He takes a dive for a share of the winnings.
Profit.

Wayfaring

10-03-2012, 08:35 AM

Not quite sure what point you are making, but the comparatively diminutive Genki Sudo beat Butterbean pretty handily:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeus1o_fight-videos-butterbean-vs-genki-su_lifestyle

Butterbean has been beat by quite a long list of MMA fighters.

The point was instead of posting up "I'm a b@d-@$$ because I can bull rush Pointdexter the accountant, then ask 'any more questions' acting all tough on the internet" videos, if we want to do bull rush, then let's get a couple bulls in there and make it an interesting rush.

I mean, if I was teaching class and someone was being obnoxious and I had to rough them up a bit, I'd probably be pretty embarrassed as opposed to videoing it, captioning it to make me look tough and putting it up on the internet. If I saw a video I would probably destroy it quickly.

Just sayin'.

JPinAZ

10-03-2012, 10:19 AM

Butterbean has been beat by quite a long list of MMA fighters.

The point was instead of posting up "I'm a b@d-@$$ because I can bull rush Pointdexter the accountant, then ask 'any more questions' acting all tough on the internet" videos, if we want to do bull rush, then let's get a couple bulls in there and make it an interesting rush.

I mean, if I was teaching class and someone was being obnoxious and I had to rough them up a bit, I'd probably be pretty embarrassed as opposed to videoing it, captioning it to make me look tough and putting it up on the internet. If I saw a video I would probably destroy it quickly.

Just sayin'.

Great post. Doesn't get more close to truth than that.

Wayfaring

10-03-2012, 10:24 AM

I've got an even better idea.
You guys come up with the 10k plus another 10k to bet. Bet on me to win.
He takes a dive for a share of the winnings.
Profit.

Why I get the impression Butterbean has already done this multiple times, I don't know.

Yoshiyahu

10-05-2012, 01:19 PM

If someone has correct structure...Could they use forward pressure against someone their size or bigger the way Sifu Shannon did against a smaller opponent?

Bacon

10-05-2012, 02:16 PM

On someone your size if you control properly then yes.

On someone of larger size... Not unless they're standing like an idiot or you get perfect timing and angle.... And I mean absolutely perfect. Even then it's a huge energy expenditure because in the end it's still bigger versus smaller.

Wayfaring

10-06-2012, 08:01 PM

If someone has correct structure...Could they use forward pressure against someone their size or bigger the way Sifu Shannon did against a smaller opponent?

Sure. You have to take into account the degree of "correctness". The better the fundamentals, the more the fight for centerline goes to the fraction of an inch better position.

Yes you can own centerline and chase a larger opponent. However, as Bacon notes, small fractions of a degree out of perfection and a larger opponent exploits the position.