stance training since you ask

[Frost]

lets just ask Frost and Ironfist how much time they've spent training sei ping dai mah and what they feel has come of it for them? Oh wait, they don't train it, they are here to criticize TCMA methods alone, posture that their methods are superior and in order to meet that agenda they attempt to diminish the methods of TCMA.
Since this was directed at me before the thread was closed ill answer, because i think its important we all know where we are all coming from and our respective experiences.

10 years doing stance training three times a week in class under the current master of the family style i trained before moving to MMA, one day a week helping teach a class and every morning at home to war up, also did stamping, stance sets and other methonds. and a few years under my current CLF and hung gar sifu.

Now i have also trained with 6 commonwealth powerlifting champions, 1 world record holder and competed in a few powerlifting competitions. Ive also spent a decade training out of a pro MMA gym where several strength and conditioning coaches also trained.

So thats my experience in TCMA, strength training and training with pros, Over to everyone else , what's your strength background, who have you trained with and where have you completed?

My current sifu has been a hung gar sifu of some 30 years standing (and who is also two generations removed from grandmaster CLC of bak mei) squats in his rugby club twice a week and teaches stances as part of the sets but doesnt overemphasize them.

So what did i get from stance training? some leg strength mainly static in nature, some flexibility, good mental focus, but personally i get better results from powerlifting, OL lifting, dynamic and static strengthing and would rather spend class times sparring than doing stances.

Anyone else care to chip in?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I don't recall a day when I didn't do stance training, LOL !
While it was never part of boxing or MT and I don't recall ever doing static stance training in Judo, wrestling or BJJ, It was a main stable in Kyokushin, TKD and Kung fu of course.
In kyokushin the core was horse and sanchin, same in the other karate systems.
In TKD it was horse stance
In the TCMA it was 90% horse and 10% bow.
I don't recall one day that I didn't do stance training in TCMA, sure it wasn't always static and most of it was whiel doing strikes and blocks and such, but we were in a horse stance for a good, oh...15-20 each day.

[YouKnowWho]

would rather spend class times sparring than doing stances.

Anyone else care to chip in?

Agree!

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than dead.

- To use "hip throw" to throw your opponent over your head is better than to perform hip throw solo drill.
- To perform 250 hip throw solo drills non-stop is better than to stay in horse stance for 10 minutes.
- To stand in horse stance is better than to sit on couch and watching TV.

Same investment in time, different reward in combat ability.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Over to everyone else , what's your strength background, who have you trained with and where have you completed?
Well, trained in a few gyms with national level olympic and powerlifters and in some with "worlds strongest man" trainees.
Also trained with a few high level bodybuilders.
Got the required certification to be a certified trainers years ago.
Been doing and studying weight training since '89.
Have done pretty much every method of ST.
Have read and studied more strengthen building and athletic performance books than I care to remember.




So what did i get from stance training? some leg strength mainly static in nature, some flexibility, good mental focus, but personally i get better results from powerlifting, OL lifting, dynamic and static strengthing and would rather spend class times sparring than doing stances.

The one thing that I liked about static stance training -holding a stance in the most demanding position possible for as long as possible, was being able to overcome the pain that goes with lactic acid build up in the muscles.

[Frost]

Well, trained in a few gyms with national level olympic and powerlifters and in some with "worlds strongest man" trainees.
Also trained with a few high level bodybuilders.
Got the required certification to be a certified trainers years ago.
Been doing and studying weight training since '89.
Have done pretty much every method of ST.
Have read and studied more strengthen building and athletic performance books than I care to remember.
.
Nothing less than what i expect from you, your views are informed and well balanced so its only natural you have had a wide variety of sound experiences, you dont normally have to ask these questions because its easy to tell peoples experiences from how they right....but sometimes its good to ask :)

overcoming that pain is a good thing, i get it these days from endless rounds of shark tank grappling (fresh man starts on the top of you over and over) and other sparring drills, but the mental strength stance work builds should not be over looked

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only time I ever knock a training exercise or routine is if I tried it and got ZERO from it.
When I mean try it I mean for at least 8 weeks consistently.
More if it is a "slow progress" regime like the Iron Skills.
You gotta be open minded BUT you also have to be honest with yourself and the results you see.
Or lack there of.

[Bacon]

The only time I ever knock a training exercise or routine is if I tried it and got ZERO from it.
When I mean try it I mean for at least 8 weeks consistently.
More if it is a "slow progress" regime like the Iron Skills.
You gotta be open minded BUT you also have to be honest with yourself and the results you see.
Or lack there of.

I'll knock it when there's a clearly better way of doing whatever the exercise purports to do. As far as building strength, endurance, lactic acid clearing efficiency, mental toughness, and pain tolerance, there are vastly superior methods for doing each of these.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll knock it when there's a clearly better way of doing whatever the exercise purports to do. As far as building strength, endurance, lactic acid clearing efficiency, mental toughness, and pain tolerance, there are vastly superior methods for doing each of these.

Sure, but then you wouldn't be doing kung fu, would you?

[YouKnowWho]

No matter what training that you do, it has to do with "combat". You can spend the same amount of your training time in swimming or bicycling. Since running is more direct to combat, even swimming is better for joints and bicycling is better for your knee, you should still select running over the others.

[Empty_Cup]

I'll knock it when there's a clearly better way of doing whatever the exercise purports to do. As far as building strength, endurance, lactic acid clearing efficiency, mental toughness, and pain tolerance, there are vastly superior methods for doing each of these.

What kind of modern methods are best for muscle endurance and lactic acid efficiency? Not trolling, actually curious. If there is a better method than sitting in a horse/bow stance, I'd be open to trying it.

[YouKnowWho]

What kind of modern methods are best for muscle endurance and lactic acid efficiency? Not trolling, actually curious. If there is a better method than sitting in a horse/bow stance, I'd be open to trying it.
May be you should look at from the angle of "what kind of training can enhance your combat skill?" If you have choices to either lift a weight bar or a throwing dummy. Which way do you prefer? Both will make you strong but to lift a "throwing dummy", you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/get_your_press_up;jsessionid=C989D8F0801AC86F4EEB8 AB07DA26779-mcd02.hydra

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=czOAhJIv_RmdgM:&imgrefurl=http://www.wcwusa.com/wrestling-products/wrestling-dummies/&docid=U24_T-iNVLPRHM&imgurl=http://img.youtube.com/vi/en1-qOCTbb8/0.jpg&w=480&h=360&ei=6XVrUMCUJObgigLZm4DABQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=362&vpy=269&dur=1427&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=166&ty=105&sig=113604076333596552026&page=1&tbnh=157&tbnw=209&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0,i:118

[Bacon]

Sure, but then you wouldn't be doing kung fu, would you?

Actually I would. Wing chun has some very useful things to add to my arsenal and has a very good method of progressive training for them when done properly.



What kind of modern methods are best for muscle endurance and lactic acid efficiency? Not trolling, actually curious. If there is a better method than sitting in a horse/bow stance, I'd be open to trying it.

Low weight high volume endurance training. Distance running/biking for one. A really good one is Hindu squats because you're continuously moving and using the spring of the hamstrings at the bottom like in a barbell squat. When you can do several hundred in a row your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.

But really anything where you're dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.

[Empty_Cup]

Actually I would. Wing chun has some very useful things to add to my arsenal and has a very good method of progressive training for them when done properly.




Low weight high volume endurance training. Distance running/biking for one. A really good one is Hindu squats because you're continuously moving and using the spring of the hamstrings at the bottom like in a barbell squat. When you can do several hundred in a row your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.

But really anything where you're dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.

What's a Hindu squat?

[Sima Rong]

A traditional Indian training exercise for wrestling, along with Hindu press-ups (like a dive-bomb push up), and other things like rope-climbing, running, flipping your body over on your head, and heavy weight swinging.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually I would. Wing chun has some very useful things to add to my arsenal and has a very good method of progressive training for them when done properly.



.

You said "wing chun".
Now no one will ever take you seriously, ever !
;)

[Empty_Cup]

A traditional Indian training exercise for wrestling, along with Hindu press-ups (like a dive-bomb push up), and other things like rope-climbing, running, flipping your body over on your head, and heavy weight swinging.

Oh, guess I should have just Youtubed them in the first place :o

We also practice Hindu squats and Hindu pushups every class for warmup, although until now I had never heard them called Hindu anything. The only difference is that for the HIndu pushup I like to reverse back to the starting position the same way I went down. i.e. like shimmying under a fence and then coming back under the fence.

[wenshu]

your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.

Since you are so fond of name checking Teh Science maybe you ought to know that the myth that lactic acid is a waste product was debunked about 40 years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=0

http://phys.org/news64680736.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since you are so fond of name checking Teh Science maybe you ought to know that the myth that lactic acid is a waste product was debunked about 40 years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=0

http://phys.org/news64680736.html

He didn't mention that lactic acid is a "waste product".
He said that:

But really anything where you're dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.

Which is correct according to your article that states:

Training helps people get rid of the lactic acid before it can build to the point where it causes muscle fatigue, and at the cellular level, Brooks said, training means growing the mitochondria in muscle cells. The mitochondria - often called the powerhouse of the cell - is where lactate is burned for energy.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news64680736.html#jCp

The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:

"The world's best athletes stay competitive by interval training," Brooks said, referring to repeated short, but intense, bouts of exercise. "The intense exercise generates big lactate loads, and the body adapts by building up mitochondria to clear lactic acid quickly. If you use it up, it doesn't accumulate."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news64680736.html#jCp

BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
doing something with a lower weight but higher reps

[Bacon]

The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:


BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
doing something with a lower weight but higher reps

Actually sometimes it's good to do a mix. For example if you do hill sprints and at the end your legs still have some spring in them but your lungs are dying you can take a short break and do a ton of Hindu squats however you choose (sets to Paiute, pyramid, etc.) so you can work the legs more.
Also for some exercises many people will not have enough strength to do high intensity intervals (ex. pull ups) so reducing the weight by placing a box under for the feet and then doing a few sets to failure will help.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep, I agree.

[wenshu]

He didn't mention that lactic acid is a "waste product".

When he said "clearing lactic acid" I'm fairly certain he did not mean to burn it off as fuel.



The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:

BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
doing something with a lower weight but higher reps

I didn't say anything about advocating one type of training over another.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When he said "clearing lactic acid" I'm fairly certain he did not mean to burn it off as fuel.



I didn't say anything about advocating one type of training over another.

No, he probably didn't mean that either, but the study you posted mentions more or less the same terms: "get rid off the lactic acid".
Granted in the study the state BEFORE it build up causing the soreness/pain.
And no, you didn't say anything about any type of training, I was commenting on his comment about "low weights high reps".

[wenshu]

For example if you do hill sprints and at the end your legs still have some spring in them but your lungs are dying you can take a short break and do a ton of Hindu squats however you choose (sets to Paiute, pyramid, etc.) so you can work the legs more.

Still have some spring? A couple of sets of max effort hill sprints on a moderate grade (~6-8%) and you should barely be able to walk back down the hill.

[Bacon]

Still have some spring? A couple of sets of max effort hill sprints on a moderate grade (~6-8%) and you should barely be able to walk back down the hill.

Some people don't gave access to good hills. Where I used to live had wonderful hills. Where I am now does not so I have to supplement.

[IronFist]

Yeah, I was gonna reply to that post but the thread got closed.

As I've stated numerous times before, I used to do TCMA. I did stance training every day for a long time. For a while I was probably in horse stance for 30-40 minutes per day, every day, with all the stuff I used to do.

And as I've stated numerous times before, I stopped doing it because it wasn't meeting my needs. I developed the ability to hold a horse stance for a long period of time, but I didn't develop strength or fighting endurance. I was pretty stable in a horse stance as far as holding it and not getting tired/sore/shaky goes, but that doesn't translate into raw strength, nor does it translate into fighting, because you don't fight from a horse stance. Doing something in a horse stance for half a second in a fight doesn't = fighting from a horse stance. It's hilarious when people post a picture from UFC where some guy happened to be in something that resembled a horse stance and say "SEE, IT'S USED IN 'REAL FIGHTING'!". Unless you actually spend time in a horse stance while fighting (and this doesn't include transitioning or randomly ending up in that position for a split second), there's no reason to train holding horse stance for more than a minute or two, as explained in post 4 of that other thread.

Long story short, I stopped training horse stance because I had needs other than muscular endurance in a fixed position. The main need was an ability to develop strength. My legs were weak as heck despite spending 30-40 minutes in horse stance per day for over a year prior to beginning weight lifting. But by TCMA doctrine I should've been super strong.

My other need was size. I'm a naturally skinny guy. Horse stance training sure doesn't do anything to promote hypertrophy.

I've now lost the ability to hold horse stance for more than a few minutes, which makes sense because I haven't trained it in over 10 years, but I don't care, because since I don't do TCMA forms or "strength sets" anymore, there's no need to be able to do horse stance.

[IronFist]

Let me follow up to that post before people misquote me as saying "horse stance is useless" and stuff.

After horse stance training, was I stronger than if I hadn't trained? Of course. I was generally stronger than untrained people who were my size and weight.

But the first rule of training is SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands) which states that your body gets better at what you do and gets worse at what you don't do. So really all I had was minimal strength increases (the first minute or two, as explained in post 4 of the other thread), and lots of static muscular endurance increases. In other words, I could hold a horse stance for a lot longer than most people, and I had only slight strength increases.

Because of SAID, if you do not train with heavy weights, you will not get strong. The body responds to increasing resistance by getting stronger. This is why horse stance does not make you strong. This is why training with high reps (and therefore light weight) does not make you strong. This is why running long distances does not make your sprint times faster. This is why powerlifters spend most of their time training with heavy weights and low reps.

I also did a lot of pushups at the time. On average, I did two sets of 55 pushups every day (I'm pretty OCD and have a log of most of my workouts since 1997).

Most people cannot do one set of 55 pushups, let alone two sets.

So how did that compare to an untrained person? I could do more pushups than them. People who didn't train were impressed because I could do so many pushups. And because of slight adaptations in strength, I could bench press a little bit more than untrained people who were my size and weight.

But just as horse stance training doesn't build leg strength, pushups don't build pressing strength (past the first 30 seconds/15 reps or so).

So was I "strong"? No, not really. I thought I was. I mean dude, when you do TCMA and are surrounded by people who don't really know what they're talking about, you start to believe it, too. I would talk to people about "root" and how great horse stance training was, and how weight lifters were wasting their time and getting big and slow and all that nonsense.

But no dude, I was weak and misinformed.

If anything, the TCMA style training I was doing gave me a decent base to begin weight lifting, especially since my body type is naturally skinny and weak, so I wasn't like a TOTAL total noob. But I would say that realistically, all the horse stance, and pushups, and Stone Warrior strength sets, and all that stuff that I did for over a year, spending an hour or more each day on training, all of that stuff was less effective than a month with a competent weight lifting coach would've been, as far as strength development (I say "competent" because there are a lot of bad personal trainers out there).

I wouldn't say it was a waste of my time, though. I mean, I enjoyed it. But it wasn't a very efficient use of time. But at the time, I really thought it was the best thing I could be doing. I mean I really did. I would spend a lot of time each day thinking about martial arts and training even as I was doing other stuff throughout the day. Physical fitness was important to me and I thought the TCMA way was the best way (probably biased toward ancient Chinese stuff and secret knowledge). But then I kinda realized I had been drinking the Kool Aid for a while.

It's not that horse stance training and all that other stuff is useless (ok, some of it is), it's just that it's not a very good method for achieving any goal other than being able to hold a horse stance for a long time.

And that's why I have always said, if your goal is to be able to hold a horse stance for a long period of time, whether for TCMA purposes, or form purposes, or bragging rights, or mental toughness, or personal goals, or anything else, then train horse stance! But if your goal is pretty much anything else, there are much more effective ways to get there.

[bawang]

no one on this forum said you only need to train horse stance for legs.

sounds like you cant let go of your mcdojo past.

[wenshu]

For a while I was probably in horse stance for 30-40 minutes per day, every day, with all the stuff I used to do.

I don't believe you.


But by TCMA doctrine I should've been super strong.

No.

Nearly two decades and you're still repeating the same three boring ass stories over and over and over and over.

[Bacon]

no one on this forum said you only need to train horse stance for legs.

sounds like you cant let go of your mcdojo past.

No we've simply said the given the alternatives which do a lot more to increase strength and endurance it is barely useful at best.

[IronFist]

I don't believe you.



Ok. I'm sure you would've believed me if I had tales of mystic powers that I developed from horse stance training, though.

Don't get me wrong; I got all the benefits one gets from horse stance training: crazy static endurance and minimal strength gains. And the confidence/mental toughness that comes from doing horse stance from a long time. It felt good and I almost always enjoyed it, but that's really all. I deluded myself into believing there were more benefits, and that's part of why I enjoyed it so much.

In hindsight, it was fun, though. Well, afterward when you stand up and your quads can finally relax and you get that little endorphin rush.

I will even go so far as to say that in terms of enjoyment and motivation, weight lifting is at best equal to my TCMA training, but definitely not superior to it. But I think that has more to do with my mindset:

Obviously I know weight lifting is better for my personal goals, and I'm lightyears beyond where I ever got with TCMA training in terms of strength, speed, power, technique, etc., but comparing how much I enjoy weight lifting now to how much I enjoyed TCMA training then, and it's a tie at best. TCMA may win by a slight margin.

Well, I dunno. I do enjoy weight lifting most days at the gym. It feels good and it's awesome when you put up new PRs. But I dunno... there's something about TCMA training that is enjoyable. I don't know that I would enjoy it now as much anymore (since I would likely view it as inefficient), but then I didn't see it that way. It was my obsession and I loved it.

Sometimes I do want to go through an old strength set just for old time's sake, though.


No.

Nearly two decades and you're still repeating the same three boring ass stories over and over and over and over.

Fortunately it only took me the experiences of 3 stories to realize TCMA training wasn't the most efficient ways to accomplish my goals.

And my stories aren't boring; they're awesome. I wish I had had an IronFist talking to me when I was young and doing all that training (although I probably wouldn't have listened to him... you know cuz weight lifters are making themselves big and slow and inflexible and don't understand the troo secretz of strength training).

Fortunately, I met cool people who explained things to me rather than just throwing dogma at me and expecting that I believe it.

So I pay it forward now.

[Oso]

where do you guys find the time?

[sanjuro_ronin]

where do you guys find the time?

If you arew referring to doing the horse stance for centuries at a time, that is one of the reasons I stopped doing static horse stance training.
When 2 hour workouts get reduced to 60 min or less, you need to get the most bang for your buck.

[Oso]

lol, no. that's not at all what I meant.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol, no. that's not at all what I meant.

Ah, the posting thing eh?
LOL !

[Oso]

or to keep arguing the same topic for years on end...take your pic. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

or to keep arguing the same topic for years on end...take your pic. :)

Consistency is the mark of great martial arts !!
:D

[IronFist]

There are lots of impressionable youngsters and noobs out there.

Gotta make sure they get the right information.

Plus I type fast so it doesn't take that much time :D

[bawang]

in the ancient world you cant afford a spinal injury. it makes sense that before you start lifting heavy weights, northern kung fu has u do 3 months of of horse stance and a couple more with weights before you start squatting (this is traditional protocol). its safer to strengthen the discs and ligaments first.

[IronFist]

in the ancient world you cant afford a spinal injury. it makes sense that before you start lifting heavy weights, northern kung fu has u do 3 months of of horse stance and a couple more with weights before you start squatting (this is traditional protocol). its safer to strengthen the discs and ligaments first.

Or you could just start squatting with light weights.

Although I suppose in the ancient world they didn't have barbells with interchangeable weights, nor squat racks. You probably just used whatever you could find. I would imagine a lot of lunge type exercises with weights held at the side.

Also, horse stance training does nothing to strengthen the back. If anything, it creates an imbalance as your legs get a little stronger and your back stays the same strength.

Here is where brainwashed TCMA people will use their "creative" interpretation of physiology to try and say that horse stance training makes the back stronger.

[bawang]

Or you could just start squatting with light weights.

in northern kung fu you hold stance with heavy weights, then start squatting light weights.

Here is where brainwashed TCMA people will use their "creative" interpretation of physiology to try and say that horse stance training makes the back stronger.

horse stance training makes the back stronger.

[omarthefish]

Most all the argument revolving around strength training completely misses the point. You get stronger legs, sure. After a while, it becomes more about endurance than absolute strength. Well duh.

There's a reason it's called "stance training" and not "leg training". Leg strength is a periphery benefit. The main point is to train the entire posture. It's ingraining specific postures that are critical points in the techniques of whatever art it's being trained for. Horse and bow stances are critical to most Shaolin based arts. You spend hours upon hours in those stances so that in the heat of the moment you will still nail those details. In a striking art, training a bow will help you to really lung in deep with your punches. The combination of horse and bow are the beginning and end positions of a lions share of attacks in Hung Gar. It's the natural extension of slow practice. Spending a long time in those positions makes it easier for the body to "remember" them under pressure.

I don't do any Shaolin stance training any more. For Baji though, you don't just stand in a horse with your hands at your sides. You take one of the positions from one of your forms. A major one is ding zhou. The stance is higher than a shaolin horse, knees are slightly aimed pronated, both hands are up protecting the face and torso and the elbows are out to the sides. It's a combination block/elbow strike. It's the final position of the strike. You want to be able to "pop" that position with power from wherever you are. You don't want to have to think about it. Training the movement is good, of course. But if you really want to sharpen that technique, then find that position, hold it and really check everything. Hang out in there checking and adjusting and trying to perfect that final "pose" as long as you can handle it. It's the same principle as a golfer statically checking his stroke or a classical guitar player just really spending some serious time examining his posture and fingering. As martial artists, those static postures just happen to be a bit more painful to hold.

People always get caught up in the strength part of stance training and miss out completely on how it works as technical training.

[xinyidizi]

My experience in xinyi and taiji is that standing develops power but it's not limited to the muscles of the leg. Standing is the only way that I know to develop that certain static power and in doing the forms or moves I just follow that energy by expanding and pulling it back. The standing positions are were you can access that power and after some time of training the standing power becomes part of the form or moves however at one point I stopped training standing and after a while I noticed that I couldn't maintain as much power that's why I usually train standing, standing/moving and moving because it's the most efficient way. After learning standing to a certain degree training standing with weights, squatting, ... are also important but I think they are not exactly for the same goal and at least IMO it's better to continue doing the empty hand standing postures as well.

[YouKnowWho]

People always get caught up in the strength part of stance training and miss out completely on how it works as technical training.
Agree! Most people just associate horse stance with strength. It has to do with balance as well.

MA = timing + opportunity + angle + strength + balance

[wenshu]

Ok. I'm sure you would've believed me if I had tales of mystic powers that I developed from horse stance training, though.

Nah, still wouldn't believe you.

[Crushing Step]

and a few years under my current CLF and hung gar sifu.


Hey Neal, quick question... By this statement, are you saying that you currently still stufy CLF and Hung Gar?

[Frost]

Hey Neal, quick question... By this statement, are you saying that you currently still stufy CLF and Hung Gar?

sorry who is neal? Anyway if it was aimed at me yes my sifu teaches a family art which is a combination of hung gar and CLF, as well as the hakka arts

[bawang]

sorry who is neal? Anyway if it was aimed at me yes my sifu teaches a family art which is a combination of hung gar and CLF, as well as the hakka arts

i think he got u confused with phrost from bullshido

[Frost]

i think he got u confused with phrost from bullshido

oh, i think thats happened once before :)

[Crushing Step]

i think he got u confused with phrost from bullshido

^This.

The way you started the thread, with switching to MMA, and people seemed to come down on you about criticism of traditional martial arts... Yeah I thought for sure it was Phrost. My bad!