Cantonese kinship terms

[Faruq]

Can anyone post all the kinship terms for kung fu schools or clans like "hing dai", "si hing", "si mu", etc.?

[Golden Arms]

Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher's teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent

These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.

[GeneChing]

Hing dai - the hing is the same hing in sihing (兄) which means elder brother. The dai means 'big' (大), which adds more respect to the term. Sometimes you might hear it as dai sihing. The meaning is more or less the same.

Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (母), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that's a Confucian thing.

[TenTigers]

Gene-I was taught that Hing as in older, Dai-as in younger (Si-dai) Different character for dai. therefore Hing-dai is fellow training brothers,
Ji-Mui fellow training sisters.

So are there two different Hing-Dai?

[GeneChing]

I've always assumed it was a derivation of Dai Sihing, but I don't speak Cantonese. I stand corrected.

[ginosifu]

Hing dai - the hing is the same hing in sihing (兄) which means elder brother. The dai means 'big' (大), which adds more respect to the term. Sometimes you might hear it as dai sihing. The meaning is more or less the same.

Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (母), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that's a Confucian thing.

Gene:

I also heard that Simo was used for the wife of a Sifu (that did not practice kung fu) and that Simu was for a a wife of the Sifu that had a Black Belt (or comprable rank), but was not the Sifu. Clarify if you could.

ginosifu

[GeneChing]

The character 母 is mu in Mandarin and mou in Cantonese. Some say the character is symbolic of breasts, which is easy enough to visualize. Muqin (母親) is the formal term for mother. I'd have to see the character for this Simo. Note that I'm not a native speaker and don't really have any grasp of Cantonese beyond studying under a Hong Kong master (as you know Gino) for a few decades.

[Syn7]

Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher's teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent

These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.

What about just brother? Like an equal student? Not senior or junior. Is that Toudai?

Edit: I see you said Hing Dai. That is equal brother under the same sifu?

[Syn7]

Hing dai - the hing is the same hing in sihing (兄) which means elder brother. The dai means 'big' (大), which adds more respect to the term. Sometimes you might hear it as dai sihing. The meaning is more or less the same.

Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (母), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that's a Confucian thing.

Kinda sexist huh. A female must earn Sifu but her husband gets a free title? Cause he's her master? Sup?

[ShaolinDan]

Kinda sexist huh. A female must earn Sifu but her husband gets a free title? Cause he's her master? Sup?

Not 'sexist,' 'Confucian.' ;)

[taai gihk yahn]

Gene-I was taught that Hing as in older, Dai-as in younger (Si-dai) Different character for dai. therefore Hing-dai is fellow training brothers,
Ji-Mui fellow training sisters.


this was always my understanding as well;

[Syn7]

Not 'sexist,' 'Confucian.' ;)

Is that like "He didn't beat his wife, he was teaching her a lesson"?

[omarthefish]

What about just brother? Like an equal student? Not senior or junior. Is that Toudai?

Edit: I see you said Hing Dai. That is equal brother under the same sifu?
No such thing.

Even in you were metaphorical "twins" (born on the same day) there is still going to be one of you who kneeled and presented tea before the other one. Even if it was only earlier than you by one minute, that person is your shixiong and you are the shidi (Cantonese: Sihing and Sidai)

Don't forget that traditionally "seniority" is the same in Kungfu as in the workplace. It has nothing to do with rank or belts or what you've learned. It's simply a measure of how long you have been Sifu's student.

================================================== ======



Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (母), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that's a Confucian thing.

Interestingly, in northern China...well in Xi'an anyways...instead of Simu (师母) the term of preference is (Mandarin) Shiniang (师娘). It's an oddly old fashioned term as "niang"/娘 is a term for "mother" that you don't hear in contemporary Chinese. You usually only hear it in period pieces on TV.

[Faruq]

Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher's teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent

These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.

Thanks, everyone! Also to Omar the Fish, is Xi'an Uighur territory? They only do Turkish oil wrestling, right? No complete systems like the Chinese arts.

[Syn7]

No such thing.

Even in you were metaphorical "twins" (born on the same day) there is still going to be one of you who kneeled and presented tea before the other one. Even if it was only earlier than you by one minute, that person is your shixiong and you are the shidi (Cantonese: Sihing and Sidai)

Don't forget that traditionally "seniority" is the same in Kungfu as in the workplace. It has nothing to do with rank or belts or what you've learned. It's simply a measure of how long you have been Sifu's student.

================================================== ======


Interestingly, in northern China...well in Xi'an anyways...instead of Simu (师母) the term of preference is (Mandarin) Shiniang (师娘). It's an oddly old fashioned term as "niang"/娘 is a term for "mother" that you don't hear in contemporary Chinese. You usually only hear it in period pieces on TV.

In the workplace, people who are hired on the same day have the same seniority.

Thanx for the info tho.

[omarthefish]

Syn7,

Touche.

In any case, I just meant to contrast with the idea of ranks/belts.
================================================== ===
Faruq,

Jokes aside, no Turks in Xi'an. The language is Turkic but geographically it's pretty far from Turkey. Also, while there is a pretty sizable Ouigher population in Xi'an, the moslem population here is mostly Hui, not Ouigher or other Jinjiang based minorities. There are a lot of Ouighers in the southern part of town but the Moslem Quarter is primarily Hui.

As to MA, Xinyi, Xingyi and Tongbei are all very popular arts among the Hui in Xi'an.

[Syn7]

The language is Turkic but geographically it's pretty far from Turkey.

Is that from settling traders on the silk trade routes?

[omarthefish]

Is "what" because of the trader's on the silk routes?

A whole bunch of ethnic groups appear to be being conflated here. Grab yourself a map or head over to Google earth and find Turkey, Xinjiang and Xi'an.

Turkey is waaaay over the west. The turkic people in China come from Jinjiang and also from all those various countries with names ending in -stan. They are not ethnically Chinese but there presence in China has virtually nothing to do with the silk road history. Well maybe something but not much. Jinjiang is a massive territory that was just pretty much annexed an brought into China during the modern era. Historically there had been a tributary relationship (as in paying tribute) but no resources to take them by force.

The language is Turkic because...well...Turkic is a huge category. It's a linguistic family like latin or germanic. Most all of central asia speaks various turkic family languages just as most of Europe speaks romance languages (ie Latin based). Blame the Ottomans.

The Hui people, OTOH, speak languages having no relationship to Turkish. The Hui are also brought to China in general and Xi'an in specific as a result of ancient trade routes. They are far more assimilated than the Oughers, Kazaks, Ouzbeks etc. and other than their little white hats, are pretty much visually indistinguishable from Han Chinese.

[Syn7]

Yah, I am familiar with the geography, but not all the history. Thanx. What time period is that? Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire? The Ottomans ran things for quite a while.

Oh yeah, I know what a vassal state is:p thanx for being thorough though.

[omarthefish]

Thanx. What time period is that? Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire?

lol. I ain't that familiar with the history. I didn't even mention the Ottoman Empire in my original post. I was on my lunch break, took a nap and then suddenly thought, "Oh yeah. I bet they all speak Turkik because of the Ottomans. :o

My guess, without googling it, is that the Vassal state stuff with those central Asian border peoples goes back all the way to Tang dynasty. That's when they were the biggest. . . actually Yuan was bigger but the Yuan dynasty was when the Mongols came in and conquered the Han, not the other way around.


Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire?
Again, moving beyond what I actually know now. I'd expect they did but the name wouldn't make sense. We call Latin based languages "romance" languages because it was the Romans who spread them. We call central Asian languages "Turkic" because it was the ancient Turks who spread them.

I never really studied Central Asia. My major was in Chinese. You live in Asia and meet the people and you learn a few things. I'm no expert on this stuff. Just live a couple minutes from the muslim quarter is all. Before that I lived down by where all the Ouigher's hang out.

[xiao yao]

I did a search on wikipedia, as I find language and ethnicities interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkestan

Hope this answers your question

[jdhowland]

Maybe keep in mind that the culture of the people we now call "Turks" didn't originate in Turkey. They were in Siberia and Mongolia long before they came to Anatolia.

And why mention the Latinate Italic languages of Europe without bringing up the Germanic family--arguably the most widespread language group in the world due to the current popularity of English? This language I write didn't come from Latin.

[RenDaHai]

Interestingly, in northern China...well in Xi'an anyways...instead of Simu (师母) the term of preference is (Mandarin) Shiniang (师娘). It's an oddly old fashioned term as "niang"/娘 is a term for "mother" that you don't hear in contemporary Chinese. You usually only hear it in period pieces on TV.


I can confirm that in Henan also. I have never once heard the expression 'ShiMu'.... We always use Shi Niang for Shi Fu's Wife.

Also for Shifus father and/or Master we use the expression ShiYe (scholarly grandfather). Generally however this is age dependant, I would never use it for anyone who is not old enough to be my grandfather as it would be strange. Similarly if my master is old enough to be my grandfather I would directly call him ShiYe and not ShiFu. If I am referring to a great master in the 3rd person, I may occasionally use the term 'DaShi' (Great Scholar) but not directly to them.


Niang is a term we use quite a lot, but generally as 'XiaoGuNiang' ... Little girl. A generally flattering way to call someone who is younger or the same age as you. Much better than XiaoJie.

[omarthefish]

Well the character is still in common use, sure. Just not the word. Nobody calls their mother niang/娘.

Also, kind of funny how xiaojie/小姐 fell out of use. That's one of my favorite linguistic phenomena. I don't know the formal term but I am referring to when a colloquial meaning of a word evolves to mean the exact opposite of the formal meaning.

For those who don't know what we are talking about, xiaojie/小姐:

Colloquial meaning: prostitute

Formal meaning: a young women from the upper class. The kind of girl who has servants and a coming out party after finishing school. An aristocrat.

[GeneChing]

Kinda sexist huh. A female must earn Sifu but her husband gets a free title? Cause he's her master? Sup? The issue is that there are two different characters used for fu in shifu and they are phonetically identical: 師傅 and 師父. Fu #1 (傅) literally means teacher and is a little redundant to shi (師), which also means teacher but has a connotation of master as well. Fu #2 (父) means father. So fuqin (父親) means father and muqin (母親) means mother and fumu (父母) means parents.

[Faruq]

I did a search on wikipedia, as I find language and ethnicities interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkestan

Hope this answers your question

I was thinking more of these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

Though I have heard of these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

I had just heard the Uighurs were geniuses with herbal medicine, but had never heard of them having any complete martial art systems like the Chinese so when I saw your location I thought I'd ask. There seems to be a lot of racial strife and oppression of the Uighurs there from what I see on youtube, lol. I just think to myself, come on people, can't we all just get along?

[xiao yao]

In Shandong, we use Shi Mu, Ive never heard Shi Niang. We also use Shi Ye over Shi Gong, but it only refers to your own teachers teacher. For masters other than my own, Ive been told to call them Laoshi, regardless of age, rank or ability in comparison to my own teacher.

For kung fu uncle, we use both Shi Bo and Shi Shu, I dont think theres a difference. When I met my own Shifu's kung fu uncle, I was told to also call him Laoshi, as theres no word for "kung fu great uncle".

Also, I know in the south of China and Taiwan, xiaojie is still a respectable term, often used in daily life.

I know none of this is Cantonese,

[Syn7]

Maybe keep in mind that the culture of the people we now call "Turks" didn't originate in Turkey. They were in Siberia and Mongolia long before they came to Anatolia.

And why mention the Latinate Italic languages of Europe without bringing up the Germanic family--arguably the most widespread language group in the world due to the current popularity of English? This language I write didn't come from Latin.

He did mention Germanic.

I've heard a few refer to English as a Latin based language, but I think most people know it's Germanic in origin. I think the confusion is because of three things. 1- Because of loanwords and to a lesser extant, Calque which itself is, wait for it, a loanword lol. 2- Because of new words for new ideas that span multiple languages. 3- Because Academia has always used Latin, people just assume it's a precursor to our language.

Cross contamination is inevitable in such close quarters.

I'm no linguist, I just find it all fascinating. These are just my best guesses. I'm totally open to suggestions when it comes to this stuff.

I was taught in like 9th grade that English has a Germanic origin.

[Syn7]

I did a search on wikipedia, as I find language and ethnicities interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkestan

Hope this answers your question

It was the first thing I looked at when I got curious. Thanx tho. :)

It answered some questions, but not many. What I am specifically interested is Human migration routes and the effects they left behind along the way and/or brought with them to their ultimate destinations. While the wiki sites give great overall info, they don't get specific enough in those articles. I'm sure it's in wiki somewhere, I just need to dig a lil more. Find good wiki pages and then go straight to the bibliography and go that route. That is why I like wiki, I appreciate the sources, not the articles themselves. Not that it sucks, it's just so "minimal".

[Syn7]

The issue is that there are two different characters used for fu in shifu and they are phonetically identical: 師傅 and 師父. Fu #1 (傅) literally means teacher and is a little redundant to shi (師), which also means teacher but has a connotation of master as well. Fu #2 (父) means father. So fuqin (父親) means father and muqin (母親) means mother and fumu (父母) means parents.

LOL, doncha just hate that!!!

How do you type in Chinese with a US standard keyboard? WTF does a Chinese typewriter look like?

You know how kids are taught to spell by "sounding out" the word? Can you do that in Chinese at all? Do phonetics have characters? Or specific strokes? I've always wanted to learn, but I have so many pursuits that I have to be realistic in my endeavors. I can learn everything, as much as I would like to. But speaking Chinese seems to be an important one. I can speak English and French fluently and have a working knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese. A Lil Italian. I don't have any formal training in Latin, but I have so many pursuits that involve Latin terminology that I have managed to pick up quite a bit.

[Syn7]

Chinese Typewriter

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/MINGKWAI.jpg

Yeah, I don't get it. lol. I don't wanna put in the work, somebody just tell me :D Pretty please!?!

How does this create 90,000 characters? Lots of overlap?

[xiao yao]

I dont know how that typewriter works, but typing on normal US or UK keyboards in really easy. You install a program, and you just type in the pinyin and it brings up a list of possible characters, if you write a whole sentence it will auto select the right characters based on the context. its quick and efficient.

Kids learn pinyin before they learn to write characters. That way they can learn the standard way to pronounce words before they know how to write them.

[Syn7]

...........The typefaces fit on a drum. A "magic eye" was mounted in the center of the keyboard which magnifies and allows the typist to review a selected character.[1] Characters are selected by first pressing 2 keys to choose a desired character which is arranged according to a system Lin devised for his dictionary of the Chinese language. The selected Chinese character appeared in the magic eye for preview,[1] the typist then pressed a "master" key, similar to today's computer function key. The typewriter could create 90,000 distinct characters using either one or two of six character-containing rollers, which in combination has 7000 full characters and 1,400 character radicals or partial characters.[1]

The inspired aspect of the typewriter was the system Lin devised for a Chinese alphabet. It had thirty geometric shapes or strokes (somewhat analogous to the elements of a glyph). These became "letters" by which to alphabetize Chinese characters. He broke tradition with the long-standing system of radicals and stroke order writing and categorizing of Chinese characters, inventing a new way of seeing and categorizing.





That's the best description they had. As to what this "system" was and how he came up with it, I dunno. Something to do with a simplified Chinese dictionary method. I didn't wanna go too far since I don't even understand the basics.
The Chinese languages are very foreign to me. I don't understand how two keys can make a character???

[omarthefish]

Chinese Typewriter

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/MINGKWAI.jpg

Yeah, I don't get it. lol. I don't wanna put in the work, somebody just tell me :D Pretty please!?!

How does this create 90,000 characters? Lots of overlap?

Actually, there are only about 10,000 characters in common use. 90,000 words
might be in a typical dictionary but only about 10,000 or so characters. I still don't get how a typewriter could work that way but 10K is a much smaller challenge
than 90K.

[Syn7]

I dont know how that typewriter works, but typing on normal US or UK keyboards in really easy. You install a program, and you just type in the pinyin and it brings up a list of possible characters, if you write a whole sentence it will auto select the right characters based on the context. its quick and efficient.

Kids learn pinyin before they learn to write characters. That way they can learn the standard way to pronounce words before they know how to write them.

So what? You spell it out phonetically and then choose from the list of suggested words by the program?

[Syn7]

Actually, there are only about 10,000 characters in common use. 90,000 words
might be in a typical dictionary but only about 10,000 or so characters. I still don't get how a typewriter could work that way but 10K is a much smaller challenge
than 90K.

Well, it works by creating a combination of keys. As to what or how that combination works, I dunno. It says you type two keys then verify then print. That's all I really know. I suspect this would make a lot more sense if you can actually read Chinese.





Chinese input methods predate the computer. One of the early attempts was an electro-mechanical Chinese typewriter Ming kwai (Chinese: 明快; pinyin: míngkuài; Wade–Giles: ming-k'uai) which was invented by Lin Yutang, a prominent Chinese writer. It assigned thirty base shapes or strokes to different keys and adopted a new way of categorizing Chinese characters. But the typewriter was not produced commercially and Lin soon found himself deeply in debt.[1]

Before the 1980s, Chinese publishers hired teams of workers and selected a few thousand type pieces from an enormous Chinese character set. Chinese government agencies entered characters using a long, complicated list of Chinese telegraph codes, which assigned different numbers to each character. During the early computer era, Chinese characters were categorized by their radicals or Pinyin (or romanization), but results weren't completely satisfactory.





A typical keyboard layout for Cangjie method, which is based on United States keyboard layout
Chu Bong-Foo invented a common input method in 1976 with his Cangjie input method, which assigns different "roots" to each key on a standard computer keyboard. With this method, for example, the character 日 is assigned to the A key, and 月 is assigned to B. Typing them together will result in the character 明 ("bright").

Despite its difficulty of learning, this method remains popular in Chinese communities that use traditional Chinese characters, such as Hong Kong and Taiwan; it is also the first method that allowed users to enter more than a hundred Chinese characters per minute.

All methods have their strengths and weaknesses. The pinyin method can be learned rapidly but its maximum input rate is limited. The Wubi takes longer to learn, but expert typists can enter text much more rapidly with it than with phonetic methods.

Due to these complexities, there is no "standard" method.

In mainland China, wubi (shape-based) and pinyin methods such as Sogou Pinyin and Google Pinyin are the most popular; in Taiwan, Boshiamy, Cangjie, and zhuyin predominate; and in Hong Kong, Cangjie is most often taught in schools.

Other methods include handwriting recognition, OCR and voice recognition. The computer itself must first be "trained" before the first or second of these methods are used; that is, the new user enters the system in a special "learning mode" so that the system can learn to identify his handwriting or speech patterns. The latter two methods are used less frequently than keyboard-based input methods and suffer from relatively high error rates, especially when used without proper "training", though higher error rates are an acceptable trade-off to many users.

[omarthefish]

That's exactly how it works...but wait...there's more....

The software has been programmed with Chinese grammar so that if you type out an entire phrase phonetically, it can guess, with startling accuracy, which characters you needed. Most Chinese speakers simply type out the entire sentence and then tap the back arrow a couple times to make one or two corrections. Furthermore, the software "learns". The character you needed may have been number 15 in a list of 20 ****nyms but the next time you use it it will bump up to number 6 or something. Use it again and the next time it's your first choice. Usually this comes into play with names. It's not possible for the software to know that you were typing a name so the first time you type a name it tends to be cumbersome as you scroll through the list but the next time it will pop up all at once. Use it a couple more times an you may have only to type the first letter of the phoenetics of the characters.

For example, with Sougou pinyin, I just type "bzd" and 不知道 (I don't know) comes up. "wsm" produces 为什么(why?). The more you use it, the faster it gets. wdmzs produces: 我的名字是(my name is)

Pretty cool. ;)

[omarthefish]

My previous post was in response to your previous one to this:

Well, it works by creating a combination of keys. As to what or how that combination works, I dunno. It says you type two keys then verify then print. That's all I really know. I suspect this would make a lot more sense if you can actually read Chinese.
What they probably mean is how "radicals" create characters. Radicals are like word roots.

Take the character 你. It has two radicals a 亻and a 尔 which combine make the character 你. The 亻can be combined with all sort of other parts like 仁 or 化 or even 花 where you have the 亻as one of 3 separate radicals. If you could type the radicals separately and then combine them to form characters you could reduce the number from 10,000 down to about 200 or so pieces that need to be combines.

[Syn7]

Sorry, my connection wasn't very good. I edited a post right away but took forever to actually post. My bad :D

[Syn7]

That's exactly how it works...but wait...there's more....

The software has been programmed with Chinese grammar so that if you type out an entire phrase phonetically, it can guess, with startling accuracy, which characters you needed. Most Chinese speakers simply type out the entire sentence and then tap the back arrow a couple times to make one or two corrections. Furthermore, the software "learns". The character you needed may have been number 15 in a list of 20 ****nyms but the next time you use it it will bump up to number 6 or something. Use it again and the next time it's your first choice. Usually this comes into play with names. It's not possible for the software to know that you were typing a name so the first time you type a name it tends to be cumbersome as you scroll through the list but the next time it will pop up all at once. Use it a couple more times an you may have only to type the first letter of the phoenetics of the characters.

For example, with Sougou pinyin, I just type "bzd" and 不知道 (I don't know) comes up. "wsm" produces 为什么(why?). The more you use it, the faster it gets. wdmzs produces: 我的名字是(my name is)

Pretty cool. ;)

Same idea as predictive text then? My cell phone learns and adds words I use. It even remembers the slang terms and words I mis spell on purpose. Like ur, str8, etc etc. You know, net speak:D

[Syn7]

My previous post was in response to your previous one to this:

What they probably mean is how "radicals" create characters. Radicals are like word roots.

Take the character 你. It has two radicals a 亻and a 尔 which combine make the character 你. The 亻can be combined with all sort of other parts like 仁 or 化 or even 花 where you have the 亻as one of 3 separate radicals. If you could type the radicals separately and then combine them to form characters you could reduce the number from 10,000 down to about 200 or so pieces that need to be combines.

Yeah but there are only like 50 keys on that typewriter? How would they get all the 'radicals'? Can these radicals be broken down more?

[Syn7]

My previous post was in response to your previous one to this:

What they probably mean is how "radicals" create characters. Radicals are like word roots.

Take the character 你. It has two radicals a 亻and a 尔 which combine make the character 你. The 亻can be combined with all sort of other parts like 仁 or 化 or even 花 where you have the 亻as one of 3 separate radicals. If you could type the radicals separately and then combine them to form characters you could reduce the number from 10,000 down to about 200 or so pieces that need to be combines.

Some early printing tools like typewriters had a sh1tload of keys.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Large_chinese_keyboard.jpg/200px-Large_chinese_keyboard.jpg

Now it looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Keyboard_layout_Cangjie.png


Are these all radicals? Surely that isn't all of them?

LOL, in this case my curiosity is far exceeding my knowledge base. I should prolly slow it down if I really wanna learn.:)

[Syn7]

Is the Latin alphabet that much superior? Or is it a culture bias in that people who use the Latin alphabet invented these tools and everyone else was forced to assimilate best they could?

[Bacon]

Is the Latin alphabet that much superior? Or is it a culture bias in that people who use the Latin alphabet invented these tools and everyone else was forced to assimilate best they could?

It is to an extent but let me preface that with some background anthropological knowledge. Each of the writing systems morphology as far as writing goes has to do with the materials they were written on. Cuneiform, one of the oldest written languages, was pressed into wet clay using a kind of stamping pen. The Greek system of writing was meant to be carved into stone, and the runic system carved into wood. The Egyptian writing system was a step forward. The hieroglyphs were pictorial but also phonetic and could thus be written on paper and inscribed onto stone.

The reason languages based partially or entirely on a phonetic script of letters are superior is that is allows for easy recombination of the symbols to form new and innovative words. For example man can be combined into policeman, scottsman, and numerous other words. But the way Latin languages. Are written is still limited in a way. It is not simply the Latin script but it's use in English which is a combination of both Germanic and Latin and allows for a myriad of nonstandard word forms to come about more easily than most languages.

Compare this to a writing system like Chinese or Japanese Kanji and you'll see the difference in complexity of creating new words. In fact the traditional characters in the Chinese system derive their meaning from combination of other symbols so as much as the simplified writing make writing easier it makes recombination more difficult and the characters less meaningful. But if you go with the traditional writing it is a much more complicated system of writing and you must memorize far more than for a phonetic system.

Simply put, there's a reason the Japanese also have phonetic alphabets.

[Syn7]

It is to an extent but let me preface that with some background anthropological knowledge. Each of the writing systems morphology as far as writing goes has to do with the materials they were written on. Cuneiform, one of the oldest written languages, was pressed into wet clay using a kind of stamping pen. The Greek system of writing was meant to be carved into stone, and the runic system carved into wood. The Egyptian writing system was a step forward. The hieroglyphs were pictorial but also phonetic and could thus be written on paper and inscribed onto stone.


Is that because of the Papyrus from the delta? I know that during the Roman Republic the Egyptians were paper heavyweights. I'm not sure how far back it goes, I just know that it was the most desirable paper for Roman aristocrats. It doesn't age very well, but it is my understanding that there are many hermetically sealed samples out there. Wax lids on pottery I imagine. Dunno tho. If you're an anthropologist then I'm sure you know better than me.




The reason languages based partially or entirely on a phonetic script of letters are superior is that is allows for easy recombination of the symbols to form new and innovative words. For example man can be combined into policeman, scottsman, and numerous other words. But the way Latin languages. Are written is still limited in a way. It is not simply the Latin script but it's use in English which is a combination of both Germanic and Latin and allows for a myriad of nonstandard word forms to come about more easily than most languages.

Compare this to a writing system like Chinese or Japanese Kanji and you'll see the difference in complexity of creating new words. In fact the traditional characters in the Chinese system derive their meaning from combination of other symbols so as much as the simplified writing make writing easier it makes recombination more difficult and the characters less meaningful. But if you go with the traditional writing it is a much more complicated system of writing and you must memorize far more than for a phonetic system.

Simply put, there's a reason the Japanese also have phonetic alphabets.

I guess that's why their poetry is so admired. More words, more accuracy. No?

So the Latin roots make it easier for calque words(is that how you say that? or is it just calque?) and new words combined with older words rather than making a whole new word, or character in the case of Chinese? It sure makes it easier to translate.

I find it difficult to wrap my head around a non phonetic alphabet, or whatever it's called. Surely it isn't all arbitrary???


Is it harder to know Chinese and learn English(or any phonetic alphabet) or vice versa? Both, writing and speaking.

[Bacon]

Is that because of the Papyrus from the delta? I know that during the Roman Republic the Egyptians were paper heavyweights. I'm not sure how far back it goes, I just know that it was the most desirable paper for Roman aristocrats. It doesn't age very well, but it is my understanding that there are many hermetically sealed samples out there. Wax lids on pottery I imagine. Dunno tho. If you're an anthropologist then I'm sure you know better than me.


Yep. Once you get to a writing material where you're writing on the surface, like paper you can write rounded shapes. Chinese writing is theorized to have originally been carved into bamboo or wood similar.




I guess that's why their poetry is so admired. More words, more accuracy. No?

So the Latin roots make it easier for calque words(is that how you say that? or is it just calque?) and new words combined with older words rather than making a whole new word, or character in the case of Chinese? It sure makes it easier to translate.
Exactly. Latin allows a certain structural order, and in English the additional Germanic roots allow the language to be far more fluid.[/quote]


I find it difficult to wrap my head around a non phonetic alphabet, or whatever it's called. Surely it isn't all arbitrary???

According to Saussure yes. You have an idea represented by an arbitrary symbol. The difference between a writing system which uses logograms like chinese and a writing system like Latin script is that the symbols representing ideas in this system are based on recombination of letters which have no independent meaning in and of themselves. They do not require memorization of meaning, only their phonetic uses. So the symbol for computer is comprised of eight letters. In Chinese or traditional Japanese you must memorize the characters and either reconstitute other characters you've created or combine multiple characters to form a word (which are each in both cases comprised of multiple memorized characters). The alternative is constantly adding entirely new characters to the language.

The other advantage of phonetic writing systems is being able to read words from the symbols without prior memorization. Having an intuitive understanding of the Latin-Germanic construction of English you can take a huge word like "antidisestablishmentarianism" and not only hazard a guess at what it means but pronounce it even if you've never seen it before.
It quite simply requires less memorization and allows for more fluidity.


Is it harder to know Chinese and learn English(or any phonetic alphabet) or vice versa? Both, writing and speaking.
Well let's accept the fact that you're never truly fluent in an acquired language on the same level as native speakers. English is a tough language to learn to speak correctly because the rules are comprised of two distinctly different language bases which means pronounciation of words can vary using the same spelling, rules can be played with if you know how and when, or suspended entirely.

From what I've observed learning to construct English is difficult but once that is mastered the writing system is simple. On the other hand for Chinese in its various dialects learning the speech is easier because it tends to follow rules fairly well but the writing system is a nightmare for people coming from an unrelated writing system.

[Bacon]

And as for the poetry comment it's not as straightforward as more words more accuracy. But that's almost a whole essay itself.

[xinyidizi]

This is how a Chinese typewriter works: http://v.ku6.com/show/d70kja5mma3dAsMgeaazXA...html

[Syn7]

This is how a Chinese typewriter works: http://v.ku6.com/show/d70kja5mma3dAsMgeaazXA...html

Care to translate :rolleyes:

have you read any of this? lol

Dr. Lin Yutangs typewriter looks easier and faster. Mos def easier to transpot, lol.

[Syn7]

I have heard that English is hard to speak but easier to write.

What annoys me is words like metropolis and metropolitan. You see it alot with the O words.

Another thing that really annoys me about a phonetic based system is the freakin assumptions. Like the word Caesar. It is not Ceaser, it is SayZar. :o I can go for days. That must get confusing for new speakers.

[omarthefish]

The reason languages based partially or entirely on a phonetic script of letters are superior...
You are begging the question. You have not convinced anyone that they are superior. Your premise is more questionable than your conclusion. There are advantages to an alphabet but most of the ones you list are not relevant. For example;

... is that is allows for easy recombination of the symbols to form new and innovative words. For example man can be combined into policeman, scottsman, and numerous other words.
That is exactly the way it works in Chinese as well. Just take the examples you chose:

policeman: 警察 jing cha. A comination of 警 jing (warn or alarm) and 察 cha (inspect/investigate).

Scotsman: 苏格兰人 A combination of 苏格兰(rough phoenetic for 'Scotland') and 人 (person)


It is not simply the Latin script but it's use in English which is a combination of both Germanic and Latin and allows for a myriad of nonstandard word forms to come about more easily than most languages.
This is certainly an advantage but it comes at a cost. Modern Chinese words are made of the same characters as ancient Chinese words. So when you see a new word, it's far easier to understand it's meaning. There is no need to be famliar with ancient Latin, Greek and German. For instance I can read (with difficulty of course) Chinese writings from 400-500 years ago. In museums I can often read stuff from 1000 years back or more. Hardly fluently but I can make out a fair bit of it. Give me some "English" from that far back and well...it's not even English is it. It's an entirely different language.


In fact the traditional characters in the Chinese system derive their meaning from combination of other symbols so as much as the simplified writing make writing easier it makes recombination more difficult and the characters less meaningful.
You writing here is a bit confusing but what I think you are trying to allude to is how traditional characters look more like what they mean than modern ones. They are closer to pictographs. But what is lost is not meaning. What is lost is aesthetics. The new characters mean exactly the same things as the old ones. They are just, arguably, uglier. (a subjective judgement)



But if you go with the traditional writing it is a much more complicated system of writing and you must memorize far more than for a phonetic system.

Simply put, there's a reason the Japanese also have phonetic alphabets.
This is the one and only part of your argument I can agree with. Learning to write characters is much harder than learning to write with an alphabet. Although, and this ironically gets back to your earlier anthropological point, as we move into the digital age, that has become far less of an issue. The software is so good, it has pretty much erased the difference in difficulty on that front. As cell phones become pocket computers, even the need to hand write stuff while out and about is shrinking.

In any case, I dismiss all your arguments on the advantages except with regards to educational. Learning to read and write is easier in an alphabetized language than in a character based one.

[omarthefish]

p.s.

Yep. Once you get to a writing material where you're writing on the surface, like paper you can write rounded shapes. Chinese writing is theorized to have originally been carved into bamboo or wood similar.

Not "theorized" and not carved...in most cases anyways. Lots of actual bamboo strips with Chinese writing on them hanging out in museums. It was pretty standard at one point and is considered to be one reason why Chinese script originally was developed to be written vertically instead of horizontally.

[Syn7]

p.s.

Not "theorized" and not carved...in most cases anyways. Lots of actual bamboo strips with Chinese writing on them hanging out in museums. It was pretty standard at one point and is considered to be one reason why Chinese script originally was developed to be written vertically instead of horizontally.

It doesn't seem far fetched that they would write on any smooth surface. You can use mud, or some natural dye from berries or whatever. A million ways to make dies and paints. You would think the etching came first tho. It prolly started with sand or dirt etchings and drawings and went from there. I dunno, just a guess.

[omarthefish]

The absolute earliest Chinese writing is the jiaguwen or "oracle bones" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Jiaguwen.jpg/244px-Jiaguwen.jpg

By the time bamboo scrolls were in use Chinese brush work was already well established.

[wenshu]

It is to an extent but let me preface that with some background anthropological knowledge. Each of the writing systems morphology as far as writing goes has to do with the materials they were written on. Cuneiform, one of the oldest written languages, was pressed into wet clay using a kind of stamping pen. The Greek system of writing was meant to be carved into stone, and the runic system carved into wood. The Egyptian writing system was a step forward. The hieroglyphs were pictorial but also phonetic and could thus be written on paper and inscribed onto stone.

The reason languages based partially or entirely on a phonetic script of letters are superior is that is allows for easy recombination of the symbols to form new and innovative words. For example man can be combined into policeman, scottsman, and numerous other words. But the way Latin languages. Are written is still limited in a way. It is not simply the Latin script but it's use in English which is a combination of both Germanic and Latin and allows for a myriad of nonstandard word forms to come about more easily than most languages.

Compare this to a writing system like Chinese or Japanese Kanji and you'll see the difference in complexity of creating new words. In fact the traditional characters in the Chinese system derive their meaning from combination of other symbols so as much as the simplified writing make writing easier it makes recombination more difficult and the characters less meaningful. But if you go with the traditional writing it is a much more complicated system of writing and you must memorize far more than for a phonetic system.

Simply put, there's a reason the Japanese also have phonetic alphabets.

Ehhh. . .not exactly. You're putting the cart before the horse. Languages aren't "based" on written script; spoken natural languages always predate their writing systems.

There is a strong phonetic component to Chinese characters, it is not so explicit that you can easily learn to read Chinese by learning it's rules, but once you pick up a thousand or so characters it becomes rather easy to look at a heretofore unrecognized character and know how to pronounce it through recognition of its composition.

I would say that the reason Japanese requires an additional script is because it is not related to Chinese so Chinese characters are not an accurate representation of spoken Japanese.

I don't really know what you're getting at about traditional characters vs simplified characters. Supposedly some of the simplifications are actually older variants and in many cases just represent the same component as when it is written in one of the "cursive" scripts. It doesn't really have anything to do with the complexity of the language itself. Learning traditional is not that much more difficult or complicated than simplified. Chinese doesn't need to create new characters when it can just combine existing ones or repurpose ancient ones.

There is a reason that Literary Chinese spread all over Asia; it is a an incredibly concise and efficient way to communicate with completely one to one symbol to syllable/morpheme lexical structure. In fact even modern spoken Chinese with its standard bi-syllabic structure is far more concise and efficient than any romance language.

Horse stance and Chinese characters; helping to reinforce narrow Western cultural bias since whenever this guy joined the forum.

[TenTigers]

Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher's teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent

These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.
of course in the more commercial schools, many of these terms have become ranks.
I met a guy who told me he was a Si-Suk.
Dude, you ain't MY Si-Suk.

[David Jamieson]

I don't see any name for "little wife" there either.

:mad:

[Golden Arms]

Feel free to contribute.

[David Jamieson]

It's humour man.

I have nothing to contribute to this. It's been done up there.

Plus, I find the way that "westerners" turn these filial terms into ranking titles to be repulsive and silly on the face of it.

If a person is part of a Kung Fu family, that's great and that's where these names apply.

But, as stated, someone else's kung fu dad ain't mine, nor is their grandad or their uncle etc etc. These are not rank titles after all, they are filial attributes.

[jdhowland]

He did mention Germanic.

I've heard a few refer to English as a Latin based language, but I think most people know it's Germanic in origin. I think the confusion is because of three things. 1- Because of loanwords and to a lesser extant, Calque which itself is, wait for it, a loanword lol. 2- Because of new words for new ideas that span multiple languages. 3- Because Academia has always used Latin, people just assume it's a precursor to our language.

Cross contamination is inevitable in such close quarters.

I'm no linguist, I just find it all fascinating. These are just my best guesses. I'm totally open to suggestions when it comes to this stuff.

I was taught in like 9th grade that English has a Germanic origin.

You're right. He did mention Germanic. I was just taking opposition to this statement:


...just as most of Europe speaks romance languages

I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but I think the
most is an overstatement if you include the other language families of Europe. And some people do seem to have the idea that Latin is somehow older than English or that we have a Latin-based syntax.

Still fighting the Normans here, even if they are my ancestors now.

I love tangents.

[David Jamieson]

You're right. He did mention Germanic. I was just taking opposition to this statement:



I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but I think the is an overstatement if you include the other language families of Europe. And some people do seem to have the idea that Latin is somehow older than English or that we have a Latin-based syntax.

Still fighting the Normans here, even if they are my ancestors now.

I love tangents.

English is Germanic as a base, but uses many other languages as well to bring itself to what it is now. Latin is one of them, but you are correct, English is not based in Latin. It's more of a mish mash with mostly a german based.

[omarthefish]

You're right. He did mention Germanic. I was just taking opposition to this statement:



I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but I think the is an overstatement if you include the other language families of Europe. And some people do seem to have the idea that Latin is somehow older than English or that we have a Latin-based syntax.

Still fighting the Normans here, even if they are my ancestors now.

I love tangents.
Perhaps not "most" but certainly more than any other group. English is only more popular as a second language. It's pretty much only native to the UK. (Does that include Ireland? England vs. UK is confusing to us Yanks). Then there's Germany, Austria and ... any other Germanic places? I'm pretty sure Polish, Romania and other eastern European countries are different family. Slavic or something. :o)

I suppose most or southern and western Europe would be more accurate.

[jdhowland]

Perhaps not "most" but certainly more than any other group. English is only more popular as a second language. It's pretty much only native to the UK. (Does that include Ireland? England vs. UK is confusing to us Yanks). Then there's Germany, Austria and ... any other Germanic places? I'm pretty sure Polish, Romania and other eastern European countries are different family. Slavic or something. :o)

I suppose most or southern and western Europe would be more accurate.


Yup. You can include Norway, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, and parts of Belgium and Switzerland, with a respectful nod to the Sami, Finnish and Francophones in some of those countries. Not to disparage the Italic tongues--they became immensly important worldwide. And I wasn't trying to rag on your comment. It was valid. Tongue-in-cheek doesn't show itself well in text. I enjoy your posts and just wanted to keep the thread going in all its permutations.

[jdhowland]

English is Germanic as a base, but uses many other languages as well to bring itself to what it is now. Latin is one of them, but you are correct, English is not based in Latin. It's more of a mish mash with mostly a german based.

I cannot conscientiously disagree with anything you wrote here. But for the fun of it I will channel my inner pedant and vehemently quibble with your choice of words. English is solidly germanic with only lexical borrowings from other tongues. For that matter much of late Latin was heavily influenced by Germanic languages and much of the supposedly romance influence on Germanic tongues is in words with germanic roots. Saloon/salon sounds French until you lool at the etymology.

What this has to do with Cantonese kinship terms I'm not too sure. But carry on.

[omarthefish]

Yup. You can include Norway, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, and parts of Belgium and Switzerland, with a respectful nod to the Sami, Finnish and Francophones in some of those countries.

Those languages are Slavic? I really don't know what language families Sweedish, Dainish, etc. fall into. I always got the impression Switzerland and Belgium were Germanic but that the Norweigian was in a whole different category.

[omarthefish]

What this has to do with Cantonese kinship terms I'm not too sure. But carry on.

Meh. After GoldenArms summed it up back on page one I don't think there was much to add. :)

[Gru Bianca]

Perhaps not "most" but certainly more than any other group. English is only more popular as a second language. It's pretty much only native to the UK. (Does that include Ireland? England vs. UK is confusing to us Yanks). Then there's Germany, Austria and ... any other Germanic places? I'm pretty sure Polish, Romania and other eastern European countries are different family. Slavic or something. :o)

I suppose most or southern and western Europe would be more accurate.

Romanian is actually a Latin based language not Slavic.

[Gru Bianca]

Yup. You can include Norway, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, and parts of Belgium and Switzerland, with a respectful nod to the Sami, Finnish and Francophones in some of those countries. Not to disparage the Italic tongues--they became immensly important worldwide. And I wasn't trying to rag on your comment. It was valid. Tongue-in-cheek doesn't show itself well in text. I enjoy your posts and just wanted to keep the thread going in all its permutations.

Not sure I understood well what you were saying, but just in case, Finnish is a language of its own with unclear origins and not connected with any other of its neighbors; I was told by a Finnish friend that the closest language to Finnish is (in grammatical terms) Hungarian.

[Gru Bianca]

Those languages are Slavic? I really don't know what language families Sweedish, Dainish, etc. fall into. I always got the impression Switzerland and Belgium were Germanic but that the Norweigian was in a whole different category.

In Switzerland actually the have the three cantons with each its on predominant language, being German, French and Italian.

[jdhowland]

Those languages are Slavic? I really don't know what language families Sweedish, Dainish, etc. fall into. I always got the impression Switzerland and Belgium were Germanic but that the Norweigian was in a whole different category.

Nope. Sorry for the confusion. I was ranting about germanic. All germanic languages supposedly originated in the north. Those descending from Old Norse became their own sub-family, but still germanic.

[jdhowland]

Romanian is actually a Latin based language not Slavic.

Da. Romanest is a beautiful language, even with some borrowings from Slavonic, Hungarian and Turkish it is solidly in the Romance category. It is the only remnant of the language of the Eastern Roman Empire.

[Syn7]

Not hard to just wiki it. I was taught that English was based on Middle English which was based on old English which was based on languages brought from the Angles, hence the term English. The rest is just influence. But heres the wiki quote anyways.



English is a West Germanic language that was first spoken in England and is now the most widely used language in the world.[4] It is spoken as a first language by a majority of the inhabitants of several nations, including the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, Australia, the Republic of Ireland, New Zealand, and a number of Caribbean nations. It is the third most common native language in the world, after Mandarin Chinese and Spanish.[5] It is widely learned as a second language and is an official language of the European Union, many Commonwealth countries and the United Nations, as well as in many world organisations.

English arose in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of England and what is now south-east Scotland, but was then under the control of the kingdom of Northumbria. Following the extensive influence of Great Britain and the United Kingdom from the 17th century to the mid-20th century, via the British Empire, and of the United States since the mid-20th century,[6][7][8][9] it has been widely propagated around the world, becoming the leading language of international discourse and the lingua franca in many regions.[10][11]

Historically, English originated from the fusion of closely related dialects, now collectively termed Old English, which were brought to the eastern coast of Great Britain by Germanic (Anglo-Saxons) settlers by the 5th century – with the word English being derived from the name of the Angles, and ultimately from their ancestral region of Angeln (in what is now Schleswig-Holstein).[12] A significant number of English words are constructed based on roots from Latin, because Latin in some form was the lingua franca of the Christian Church and of European intellectual life.[13] The language was further influenced by the Old Norse language due to Viking invasions in the 8th and 9th centuries.

The Norman conquest of England in the 11th century gave rise to heavy borrowings from Norman-French, and vocabulary and spelling conventions began to give the appearance of a close relationship with Romance languages[14][15] to what had then become Middle English. The Great Vowel Shift that began in the south of England in the 15th century is one of the historical events that mark the emergence of Modern English from Middle English.

Owing to the assimilation of words from many other languages throughout history, modern English contains a very large vocabulary, with complex and irregular spelling, particularly of vowels. Modern English has not only assimilated words from other European languages but also from all over the world, including words of Hindi and African origin. The Oxford English Dictionary lists over 250,000 distinct words, not including many technical, scientific, and slang terms.[16][17]

[R0NiN]

Can someone please tell me what these titles mean.

Sifu

SiGung

SiSuk

Sibok

and if there is any more Chinese instructor titles, please tell me what they are and what they mean, Thanks!

[pazman]

Shifu in no way means "instructor". You call a guy "Shifu", usually, in two cases:

1. You have entered into a man's occupational space, in which case he is the "master" of his domain. An example of this would be calling the cab driver "shifu". This is a little old fashion but a good way to show friendly respect.

2. You have entered into a master-disciple or master-apprentice relationship. He will guide and observe your progress, but the person who directly instructs you might be different. I imagine the other terms you've used (I don't know Catonese) refer to familial relationships that are formed when one is initiated as a disciple.

Thus, if you are talking to a kung fu teacher, outside of his school and he is not your master, calling him shifu is a little strange, though this seems to be rather commonplace in the USA for Chinese teachers milking their students naivety.

These days, a proper term for a kung fu teacher would be jiaolian, or "coach".

[R0NiN]

i understand this now, but still what do the other names mean?

[Lebaufist]

These days, a proper term for a kung fu teacher would be jiaolian, or "coach".We need to adopt this. All this pretentious teacher worship is for the birds. We are just gloried P.E. teachers. The way people attach "Wu De" to everything to justify this is just as ridiculous.

[pazman]

We need to adopt this. All this pretentious teacher worship is for the birds. We are just gloried P.E. teachers. The way people attach "Wu De" to everything to justify this is just as ridiculous.

The use of shifu is warrented in some cases, but certainly not by a kung fu teacher running a commercial school in the US. Demanding the use of it by Chinese coaches in the US shows a grave misunderstanding and disrespect of their host country.

[Golden Arms]

Speak for yourself.

I learned the old way and teach under the Journeyman/Apprentice model. On any given day I may be asked about one or more of these things:


Nutrition
Meditation
Use of herbal formulas
Different methods for different body types
Fighting
Self control, mindset and ethics
Physiology
Recovery and treatment of injury as well as injury prevention
History as relates to our system and material
etc.

[pazman]

Speak for yourself.

I learned the old way and teach under the Journeyman/Apprentice model. On any given day I may be asked about one or more of these things:


Nutrition
Meditation
Use of herbal formulas
Different methods for different body types
Fighting
Self control, mindset and ethics
Physiology
Recovery and treatment of injury as well as injury prevention
History as relates to our system and material
etc.


Your disciple/apprentices should call you Master. But if you think anybody else should call you Master, you will be very disappointed.

[TenTigers]

My Mom even calls me Sifu.....
actually, no. It's, Mister Sifu.

[pazman]

My Mom even calls me Sifu.....
actually, no. It's, Mister Sifu.

Mister Sifu is permissible. As is Celestial Master.:D

[David Jamieson]

Can someone please tell me what these titles mean.

Sifu

SiGung

SiSuk

Sibok

and if there is any more Chinese instructor titles, please tell me what they are and what they mean, Thanks!

1. SiFu= Teacher/Father
2. SiGung = Teacher/Grandfather (sifu's teacher)
3. SiSuk = Sifu's (yours) junior classmate
4. SiBak = Sifu's (yours) senior classmate

[Lebaufist]

Suk and bak are aunt and uncle.

Its still a pretense. You can call yourself what you want but the amount of weight given to every Tom , dic and harry with a school is a burden. Some of these guys act like they are kwan kune or something.

[omarthefish]

You're right. He did mention Germanic. I was just taking opposition to this statement:



I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but I think the is an overstatement if you include the other language families of Europe. And some people do seem to have the idea that Latin is somehow older than English or that we have a Latin-based syntax.

Still fighting the Normans here, even if they are my ancestors now.

I love tangents.

Just stumbled onto this..."pure Germanic English" essay on atomic theory :) :

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/alt.language.artificial/ZL4e3fD7eW0/_7p8bKwLJWkJ

Just a bit of the opening:


The following item shows what English would look like if it
were purged of its non-Germanic words, and used German-style
compounds instead of borrowings to express new concepts.
This recently appeared in the Conlang mailing list.

=====cut here=====

Here is Poul Anderson's essay "Uncleftish Beholding" ("Atomic
Theory"), reprinted from the revised edition appearing in his
collection _All One Universe_.


For most of its being, mankind did not know what things are made
of, but could only guess. With the growth of worldken, we began
to learn, and today we have a beholding of stuff and work that
watching bears out, both in the workstead and in daily life.

The underlying kinds of stuff are the *firststuffs*, which link
together in sundry ways to give rise to the rest. Formerly we
knew of ninety-two firststuffs, from waterstuff, the lightest and
barest, to ymirstuff, the heaviest. Now we have made more, such
as aegirstuff and helstuff....

From the Vsauce on English (really worth watching. I'm totally addicted to Vsauce these days :o)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atI-JPGcF-k

[-N-]

Suk and bak are aunt and uncle.

Suk is your father's younger brother. Bak is your father's older brother.

In kung fu terms, junior and senior classmates of your teacher. Your teacher's kung fu brothers.

So Si Suk and Si Bak are the younger kung fu uncle, and the older kung fu uncle.
.

[-N-]

Suk and bak are aunt and uncle.

Goo ma and goo je are older and younger aunts on your father's side.

[GeneChing]

My latest essay for The Academy of Martial and Internal Arts - Becoming A Sifu (https://www.reelingsilk.com/academy/2020/11/11/becoming-a-sifu/).

https://i0.wp.com/www.plumpub.com/kaimen/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Gene10.jpg?resize=220%2C310&ssl=1

THREADS
My-personal-blog (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71788-My-personal-blog)
The-Academy-of-Martial-and-Internal-Arts (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71765-The-Academy-of-Martial-and-Internal-Arts)
Cantonese kinship terms (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?64569-Cantonese-kinship-terms)