Jut Sao?

[Yoshiyahu]

Does your JUT SAO grab with the thumb to jerk the arm or just uses the four fingers...

In other words do you grab with all four fingers an jerk your opponent into the fist,

or

Do you use four fingers to guide your opponent into the punch with hand jerking motion with out actually holding your opponents bridge?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPjFUPMPaU

[Bacon]

1. Wing chun does not grab. No thumb... Ever.
2. You never control with the fingers. You use the palm or the heel for all controls.

[JPinAZ]

I'm confused because the title of the thread 'jut sau' and there is a link to a clip but there was no real jut sau in the clip that I saw. I did see some bad lap sau-looking grabs. I say bad because lap sau isn't a 'grab' using the thumb, and you should NEVER pull the opponent into you giving up space as seen in this garbage clip.

Besides the clip, I have a hard time even knowing where to start answering the OP questions. I guess first you would have to define exactly what you mean by jut sau/lap sau? Next, to have any real discussion, you would have to look further than just the technique because WCK is not technique based - it is concept/principle based.

So a better question might be "What concepts/idea suport and dictate usage of jut sau, and what is the proper mechanics with these ideas in mind?" - because things like leverage, contact point, energetic on the bridge, gate theroy, box theory, etc all play into in why and how a given technique is being used.

And I would ask, why not answer your own question?

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what you mean..My jut sao is different because we use the thumb to grab...infact in some cases we dig the fingers into your arm while we jerk you...But this motion is done for just a second...while punching you.

how ever the way you mention Jut Sau is also apart of our salutation in SLT...We utilize it that way as we do with the jum sao...The Jum Sao is good tool from the bridge to utilize...



But i speak the last part as basically my experience from sparring and chi sau with different people....Because in sparring a non-wing chun person their attacks and strikes will be different!



I'm confused because the title of the thread 'jut sau' and there is a link to a clip but there was no real jut sau in the clip that I saw. I did see some bad lap sau-looking grabs. I say bad because lap sau isn't a 'grab' using the thumb, and you should NEVER pull the opponent into you giving up space as seen in this garbage clip.

Besides the clip, I have a hard time even knowing where to start answering the OP questions. I guess first you would have to define exactly what you mean by jut sau/lap sau? Next, to have any real discussion, you would have to look further than just the technique because WCK is not technique based - it is concept/principle based.

So a better question might be "What concepts/idea suport and dictate usage of jut sau, and what is the proper mechanics with these ideas in mind?" - because things like leverage, contact point, energetic on the bridge, gate theroy, box theory, etc all play into in why and how a given technique is being used.

And I would ask, why not answer your own question?

[JPinAZ]

I understand what you mean..My jut sao is different because we use the thumb to grab...infact in some cases we dig the fingers into your arm while we jerk you...But this motion is done for just a second...while punching you.

how ever the way you mention Jut Sau is also apart of our salutation in SLT...We utilize it that way as we do with the jum sao...The Jum Sao is good tool from the bridge to utilize...

But i speak the last part as basically my experience from sparring and chi sau with different people....Because in sparring a non-wing chun person their attacks and strikes will be different!

Is there a picture or video on youtube that shows what you mean by 'jut sau'? Or are you saying there is jut sau in the clip you already provided? If so, please give a timestamp for when it happens, because I only see lap sau happening there, because I am still not sure what 'tehcnique' you are referring to.

Regardless of technique - From a mechanics POV, in HFY we never 'commit' to anything by using a 'grab'. We may guide, tug, pull, etc using the striking point, palm, outside knife edge, outside fingers (ring/pinky), etc with the correct leverage. But in most cases to grab as shown in the first clip using fingers and wrapped thumb is a big no-no! It is far too commited, tends to roll the elbow out of position losing structural integrity, gives up fwd intent, as well as allowing the opponent a chance to roll the arm over (And again. never pulling into our own space is shown in the clip - but again, that is lap sau).

Our SNT has ngnoi 'jut sau'. Can see the double hand jut saus at 1:31 and 1:37 in the following clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84n...feature=relmfu
Is this what you are meaning when you say jut sau?

[Phil Redmond]

1. Wing chun does not grab. No thumb... Ever.
2. You never control with the fingers. You use the palm or the heel for all controls.
And who told you that? I thought so 40 something years ago but I was wrong. I just got over an online discussion with people saying what Wing Chun has and doesn't have. You can use your thumb above the elbow. To say never means you have experience in ALL aspects of Wing Chun and ALL lineages. Which clearly you don't have by your umbrella statement. People once told me that Wing Chun must fight down the middle. Then people discovered Pien San WC. ;-)
Wing Chun people. Research other Wing Chun lineages/concepts before making uninformed statements.
You put yourself in a bad light when you talk only based on your experiences/teachings/lineages without seeing the whole picture.

[Phil Redmond]

Does your JUT SAO grab with the thumb to jerk the arm or just uses the four fingers...

In other words do you grab with all four fingers an jerk your opponent into the fist,

or

Do you use four fingers to guide your opponent into the punch with hand jerking motion with out actually holding your opponents bridge?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPjFUPMPaU
Jut is an energy. It can be applied using different shapes.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jut is an energy. It can be applied using different shapes.

Jut sao is just that, a jerking hand. It is an energy or action, but can be applied many different ways. I don't mind using my thumbs at all. Jerking someones hand or arm violently toward you can make him brace against that and attempt to draw back away, which makes him very easy to catipult backwards since he is wanting to go that way anyway.

[imperialtaichi]

Does your JUT SAO grab with the thumb to jerk the arm or just uses the four fingers...

In other words do you grab with all four fingers an jerk your opponent into the fist,

or

Do you use four fingers to guide your opponent into the punch with hand jerking motion with out actually holding your opponents bridge?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPjFUPMPaU
Why the hell would anyone want to pull the opponent's elbow into your mid-section?

[Yoshiyahu]

I can understand what you mean.

heres a one jut sao from Siu Lien Tao....We have two different ones...

Everytime the hand closes and draws back its a grabbing jut sau...then the snake hand cycle at the beginning is a side motion jut sau simliar to what this video is showing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuThh_y9-M


now similiar to other motion is this video below time stamp 1:56...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svChDqwzib8&feature=related

this I use for outside fighting, gaining entry while bridging the gap...An the second one can be use for long range fighting and defense as well as inclose fighting with the use of your structure.

Basically its any hand with the use of jerking motion to use your opponents balance against them an get them plowing into your fist...its good way to shock them an give more force!


Is there a picture or video on youtube that shows what you mean by 'jut sau'? Or are you saying there is jut sau in the clip you already provided? If so, please give a timestamp for when it happens, because I only see lap sau happening there, because I am still not sure what 'tehcnique' you are referring to.

Regardless of technique - From a mechanics POV, in HFY we never 'commit' to anything by using a 'grab'. We may guide, tug, pull, etc using the striking point, palm, outside knife edge, outside fingers (ring/pinky), etc with the correct leverage. But in most cases to grab as shown in the first clip using fingers and wrapped thumb is a big no-no! It is far too commited, tends to roll the elbow out of position losing structural integrity, gives up fwd intent, as well as allowing the opponent a chance to roll the arm over (And again. never pulling into our own space is shown in the clip - but again, that is lap sau).

Our SNT has ngnoi 'jut sau'. Can see the double hand jut saus at 1:31 and 1:37 in the following clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84n...feature=relmfu
Is this what you are meaning when you say jut sau?

SORRY I CANT PULL UP YOUR VIDEO!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

You can use it as pull...But thats more of lop sau motion grabbing arm in my opinion...I utilize the jut sao to shock or shake the opponents structure just long enough to land my punch with my structure moving in unison with his face moving into the punch. If you catch the opponent off guard his neck will whip forward an his head will be exposed allowing you a clear shot...its more of a quick jerk to distrupt his balance or stance...


You dont hold there hand...the entire exchange should take no more than two or three seconds an your off to controlling your opponent with various other techs and succession of attacks!



Why the hell would anyone want to pull the opponent's elbow into your mid-section?

[Yoshiyahu]

wow i was just thinking that


Jut is an energy. It can be applied using different shapes.

Yes this work on opponents not use to this tactic which makes WC tricks of the trade so very useful...

Jut sao is just that, a jerking hand. It is an energy or action, but can be applied many different ways. I don't mind using my thumbs at all. Jerking someones hand or arm violently toward you can make him brace against that and attempt to draw back away, which makes him very easy to catipult backwards since he is wanting to go that way anyway.

Right...I utilize Wrist grabbing and punch technique as a distraction or disruption for the opponent so i can hit them...If you jerk their arm hard enough they wont be elbow to raise the elbow...Just pulling the elbow will allow your opponent to basically use a lifting bong sau....So you jerk it hard like you wanna pull they arm out of socket...As for grabbing the elbow or above the elbow...i utilize that as a controlling technique...Basically its good for leg sweeps and kicks...because you can turn their centerline away an kick the back of knee to drop them down!




And who told you that? I thought so 40 something years ago but I was wrong. I just got over an online discussion with people saying what Wing Chun has and doesn't have. You can use your thumb above the elbow. To say never means you have experience in ALL aspects of Wing Chun and ALL lineages. Which clearly you don't have by your umbrella statement. People once told me that Wing Chun must fight down the middle. Then people discovered Pien San WC. ;-)
Wing Chun people. Research other Wing Chun lineages/concepts before making uninformed statements.
You put yourself in a bad light when you talk only based on your experiences/teachings/lineages without seeing the whole picture.

[JPinAZ]

I can understand what you mean.

heres a one jut sao from Siu Lien Tao....We have two different ones...

Everytime the hand closes and draws back its a grabbing jut sau...then the snake hand cycle at the beginning is a side motion jut sau simliar to what this video is showing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuThh_y9-M

Yes, this is what I refer to as somthing that could be labeled 'jut sau'. While I don't agree with his application ofa ngling off centerline when he demo'd going from 2 hand contact to one, this looks like the technique.

Here's is the correct link I was referring to for ngoi jut saus in HFY SNT. Not sure why I'm having such trouble with video links lately! Anyway, as stated before you'll see double hand jut saus at 1:31 and 1:37:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84nEJOiYk&feature=plcp


now similiar to other motion is this video below time stamp 1:56...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svChDqwzib8&feature=related

this I use for outside fighting, gaining entry while bridging the gap...An the second one can be use for long range fighting and defense as well as inclose fighting with the use of your structure.

yeah, I would still call that a type of laap sau, but a very very poor one since it's really nothing more than just a fully committed grab and far from a guiding/jerking motion of jut sau. I guess that's where we'll have to agree to differ.
And actually, I would loosely term the full action on the 'second one' as Laap Saat Geng Sau.


Basically its any hand with the use of jerking motion to use your opponents balance against them an get them plowing into your fist...its good way to shock them an give more force!

That's a pretty broad stretch of the term 'jut' to say it applies even when someone grabs and pulls as in both the Wong clip and the first one you posted, but again, to each his own.

[Ali. R]

And who told you that? I thought so 40 something years ago but I was wrong. I just got over an online discussion with people saying what Wing Chun has and doesn't have. You can use your thumb above the elbow. To say never means you have experience in ALL aspects of Wing Chun and ALL lineages. Which clearly you don't have by your umbrella statement. People once told me that Wing Chun must fight down the middle. Then people discovered Pien San WC. ;-)
Wing Chun people. Research other Wing Chun lineages/concepts before making uninformed statements.
You put yourself in a bad light when you talk only based on your experiences/teachings/lineages without seeing the whole picture.

Great post,

He never mention the ulna and radius which gets you deep into your opponents structure dealing with the ideal of jamming and wedging, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact. Good structure is what controls the fighting lines and not the hands.

Once the hands gets tight the arms become stiff, when the arms gets stiff the torso or chest becomes hard and flexed and when that happens the throat gets dry, causing overall tension within one’s structures or intent (rigged and hard force).

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes this Jut Sao is also at 1:55 in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4RQ8wpSEb4

But also at 0.10-0.20 you have a Jut Sao...simliar to what STAN was doing his videos showing an outside defense...



Yes, this is what I refer to as somthing that could be labeled 'jut sau'. While I don't agree with his application ofa ngling off centerline when he demo'd going from 2 hand contact to one, this looks like the technique.

Here's is the correct link I was referring to for ngoi jut saus in HFY SNT. Not sure why I'm having such trouble with video links lately! Anyway, as stated before you'll see double hand jut saus at 1:31 and 1:37:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84nEJOiYk&feature=plcp



yeah, I would still call that a type of laap sau, but a very very poor one since it's really nothing more than just a fully committed grab and far from a guiding/jerking motion of jut sau. I guess that's where we'll have to agree to differ.
And actually, I would loosely term the full action on the 'second one' as Laap Saat Geng Sau.



That's a pretty broad stretch of the term 'jut' to say it applies even when someone grabs and pulls as in both the Wong clip and the first one you posted, but again, to each his own.

[Yoshiyahu]

Please explain on what is key to advoid the latter stiffness from occuring?


Great post,

He never mention the ulna and radius which gets you deep into your opponents structure dealing with the ideal of jamming and wedging, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact. Good structure is what controls the fighting lines and not the hands.

Once the hands gets tight the arms become stiff, when the arms gets stiff the torso or chest becomes hard and flexed and when that happens the throat gets dry, causing overall tension within one’s structures or intent (rigged and hard force).

[JPinAZ]

Yes this Jut Sao is also at 1:55 in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4RQ8wpSEb4

That's fine, so we half-agree on what jut sau is..
I say that because it seems to me like you are calling 2 very different actions the same technique (one is jut sau and one is laap sau I say you are incorrectly labeling as also being jut sau). What is your definition of laap sau, and how does it differ from jut sau?

Also to get into the real meat of things and away from 'technique' thinking, what WCK concepts or ideas are behind each one and what makes the 2 technques different? For me, things like gate theory, facing, leverage points, contact points, box theories etc come to mind, but I'm curious what in WCK dictates the usages of the 2 different techniques for you?


But also at 0.10-0.20 you have a Jut Sao...simliar to what STAN was doing his videos showing an outside defense...

Oh my.. IMO you would do yourself a BIG favor by distancing yourself from that 'clown'. I wouldn't view call of anything stan does in his clips as 'wing chun'. First clue is he's bridging with jut sau in the first place:eek:, and far the correct proper range the tool typically operates in. heck, he's even bridging outside of bridging range! Ahhh, not worth talking about any more really..

[Ali. R]

Please explain on what is key to advoid the latter stiffness from occuring?


The first rule of thumb is to master your stance a lot of work but very much worth it to develop a sense of assuredness and confidents (frame of mind) while keeping the hands relaxed, and in some cases limped.

Each block/strikes has its own group or family stemming from the ulna and radius, when one has mastered his or her structural concept within their forms, one should begin to use or develop ‘jing lik’ tendon usage; either with the thumb or pinky side of the arm.

By tucking the thumb (lose tuck) and keeping all of the fingers relaxed one would feel the tendons in play to support forward vector force and the same goes for the pinky, by aligning it up with the forearm and the rest of the finger should stay lose/relaxed as well.

Meaning once the fingers (as a group) comes into play, sensitivity and softness is automatically thrown out the window. This is why the hands are nothing until the moment of impact to maintain and keep the idea of sensitivity and softness when under pressure.

[Yoshiyahu]

My Definition of Jut Sao is jerking motion...my definition of lop Sao is pulling motion....

When i pull your hand down subtlely its lop...when i jerk you its jut...

One is soft the other is hard...Yin and Yang if you will.


Too your second question...Techniques are trained and drilled to become natural an flow after awhile...when sparring you dont have time to think about this technique for that...at best you hope your endless drilling programmed your body to react instinctively...but sometimes your body wont do said technique correct or at all....thats why you have a abunance of tools at your disposal...some work better for certain situtations and fighters. But you use the tools as best you can but the main thing is to always be on the offense forever attacking your opponent and forever moving into his space moving forward aggressively...in the midst of moving forward you want to control him by using uprooting techniques, blind sidind and jamming techniques...constinously destroying his structure and balance while landing strikes.

As for facing...you should always be facing so your mass can merge with you...like a snake...when the head moves the tail follows. If you get turned around or off center to where your not facing....a technique like whisking hand can be utilize to regain the center line an recompose your structure...contact points from my experience i assume you mean from the bridge anything else is hit or landed strike...contact points depend on the range or gap...One range is wrist...the other is beyond the elbow where you have the best control for jamming and barring...At the wrist pulling and jerking is best...At the elbow jamming, pushing and barring is best...of course you can use both at any range...for me personally i find when sparring what i mentioned to be the best range against non-wing chun fighters.

Gate theory...Well we break it down early on into techniques best utilize for defending the gates. One theory you disagree with will be the Fak Sau/Bil Sau...the other will be the outside jut sau...anyway...there are others...But basically these are what i use to set up the control. As for the box theory...i go by centerline and gate theory...We train to enter our opponents gates or doors...the doors lead to center line...At any rate...We train to protect or gates and centerline....personally i see Tan Sao, Bong Sau and Pak Sao among others best for protecting the center line from around your lower dan tien. I see Low Gan Sao best for protecting the lower gates....I see Gum sau and Jum sau for protecting the centerline around your middle dan tien...of course you have high techniques of each like bil or bong for the above your upper dan tien. But each technique is train vigourously until you get use to it instinctively defending in that fashion different ranges and levels of attack. But in the same breath as you defend you time your opponent so you can enter and take his centerline and destroy his balance and structure....


That's fine, so we half-agree on what jut sau is..
I say that because it seems to me like you are calling 2 very different actions the same technique (one is jut sau and one is laap sau I say you are incorrectly labeling as also being jut sau). What is your definition of laap sau, and how does it differ from jut sau?

Also to get into the real meat of things and away from 'technique' thinking, what WCK concepts or ideas are behind each one and what makes the 2 technques different? For me, things like gate theory, facing, leverage points, contact points, box theories etc come to mind, but I'm curious what in WCK dictates the usages of the 2 different techniques for you?



Oh my.. IMO you would do yourself a BIG favor by distancing yourself from that 'clown'. I wouldn't view call of anything stan does in his clips as 'wing chun'. First clue is he's bridging with jut sau in the first place:eek:, and far the correct proper range the tool typically operates in. heck, he's even bridging outside of bridging range! Ahhh, not worth talking about any more really..

[wtxs]

That would be the Jut Sao action, followup with striking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuThh_y9-M

Since you can't differentiate between jut sao and laap sao, let me rewite part of your post, may be then you'll get the idea. :p:D


Does your jut sao grab with the thumb to JERK ... or just PULL using the four fingers...]

[Fa Xing]

In JKD, we use jut sao as a jerking motion to clear the line for a hit.

Check out at 1:20 with Lamar Davis (http://youtu.be/ln4OjwnuKyA).

[TenTigers]

if your opponent is too strong to pull with your jut-sao, then you can become soft and control him with fook-sao.
In other words....


wait for it....





Fook him if he can't take a jut.":D






(remembered somewhat from a Randy Williams vid...many moons ago...)

[Yoshiyahu]

That would be the Jut Sao action, followup with striking.



Since you can't differentiate between jut sao and laap sao, let me rewite part of your post, may be then you'll get the idea. :p:D

i GUESS what im a saying is too far of a forieng concept...Both Jut and Lop Grab...


But the Lop pulls and the Jut jerks or shocks...For instance you can pull someone to the side, pull them down, or pull them into you or simply pull their guard down subtle like...thats lop sau...Most of the time its just to open a door so i can hit or fak..

Jut Sau is basically a distracting, to shock you while i strike you...to make you flinch, resist or stiffen up from the intial shock...most fighters are not use to the jerking motion an it throws them off the first few times you do it to them...allowing you to create an opening...


As for the lop you can use only four fingers or you can use the thumb to hold on if your opponent tries to punch through your lop...But basically the Jut sao is what you need the thumb for...to jerk the opponent hard...of course you can utilze jut sao energy with blade like hand too...not really the fingers persay...

[wtxs]

Since you can't differentiate between jut sao and laap sao, let me rewrite part of your post, may be then you'll get the idea. :p:D

Here is the revised version of what you had wrote: "Does your jut sao grab with the thumb to "JERK" :p ... or just "PULL" :p using the four fingers ..."

Read between the lines my son, or do you know how to read? Oh never mind ... you can't even ...


i GUESS what im a saying is too far of a forieng concept...Both Jut and Lop Grab...

You are so right ... because you are all in your own little fantasy world.:rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Well my fantasy fu i love sir...lol....

anyway thanks for sharing with me...


Here is the revised version of what you had wrote: "Does your jut sao grab with the thumb to "JERK" :p ... or just "PULL" :p using the four fingers ..."

Read between the lines my son, or do you know how to read? Oh never mind ... you can't even ...



You are so right ... because you are all in your own little fantasy world.:rolleyes: