Chum Kiu

[Paul T England]

Ok guys,

I have seen and trained several different versions of Chum Kiu form. What amazes me is the huge differences in movement, positions, sequence, applications and structures.

The third section with the double low bong (dai bong) seems to vary the most. Would anyone care to give deep review of what is going on in this section?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Paul T England]

Thanks LFJ,

I have been taught and expereinced these methods but so many teachers do it different to this such as mot yat and some mainland branches, I wonder what their application or principle is.

Some also might think it has less to do with the arms and more to do with the legs and hips.

There should not be any wasted movements. life is to short to train movement swith no value.

I like the duel dai bong and gaan sau understanding but I also feel there are principles going on in the form that most people don't see.

just to get people thinking! not saying I have all the answers

how about timing....3 bong sau's

Lower and upper body together
Upper Body First
Lower Body First

Paul

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D-GNodGKNU

ours is high double bong

[Robinhood]

Like everything else, how you do something depends on your level of development, as you improve or change, your sets will also change. If you are still executing your sets the same as when you first learned them and they feel basically the same, then you have not advanced much.

Some people teach beginning sets, some teach more developed sets, you still should start with beginning set, and develop into advanced set. The problem is some people think beginning set is same as advanced set, it only looks similar on outside, inside is very different.


Cheers

[Bacon]

The dual dai bong sau to double tan sau is for:
-Learning to apply power in as your foot lands from the kick
-Learning to maintain a forward structure while stepping
-Learning to maintain a forward changing structure while stepping
-Learning to apply power from the back leg into the forward structure on the initial part of the step and first change (double tan to double dai bong bong) and power as the back leg moves in during the second phase of change (double dai bong to tan)
-Learning to coordinate the above as efficiently as possible.

The end of the three tan-bongs where the feet come together and you press is further learning of wing chun power generation. The idea is that since the weight should never be on the front leg, learning how to generate power properly with both legs parallel forces you to do it essentially on one leg because you don't have a second leg to stabilize your forward power.

The kick at the end of the third section is a 45 degree off-centerline kick used for kicking to the back or side of the knee once you've entered. There is no retraction of the leg. The foot goes directly back to ygkym without the knee bending.

The jum sau and wu sau are for learning to coordinate both hands as the kick lands and learning to coordinate two hands for later development in the use of gan sau and kwan sau.

The punch which originates from the low jum sau directly toward head level is to shift and recover back to center from low positions such as being trapped by lap sau. The next two punches are just follow up.

[Yoshiyahu]

thanks for sharing....very precise....



The dual dai bong sau to double tan sau is for:
-Learning to apply power in as your foot lands from the kick
-Learning to maintain a forward structure while stepping
-Learning to maintain a forward changing structure while stepping
-Learning to apply power from the back leg into the forward structure on the initial part of the step and first change (double tan to double dai bong bong) and power as the back leg moves in during the second phase of change (double dai bong to tan)
-Learning to coordinate the above as efficiently as possible.

The end of the three tan-bongs where the feet come together and you press is further learning of wing chun power generation. The idea is that since the weight should never be on the front leg, learning how to generate power properly with both legs parallel forces you to do it essentially on one leg because you don't have a second leg to stabilize your forward power.

The kick at the end of the third section is a 45 degree off-centerline kick used for kicking to the back or side of the knee once you've entered. There is no retraction of the leg. The foot goes directly back to ygkym without the knee bending.

The jum sau and wu sau are for learning to coordinate both hands as the kick lands and learning to coordinate two hands for later development in the use of gan sau and kwan sau.

The punch which originates from the low jum sau directly toward head level is to shift and recover back to center from low positions such as being trapped by lap sau. The next two punches are just follow up.

[Paul T England]

Thanks for the input guys.

So what about the start of the form after the punches?. Many of the mainland branches including Ip Man students in Foshan do a similar set of moves before going onto turning.

Paul

[Vajramusti]

Ok guys,

I have seen and trained several different versions of Chum Kiu form. What amazes me is the huge differences in movement, positions, sequence, applications and structures.

The third section with the double low bong (dai bong) seems to vary the most. Would anyone care to give deep review of what is going on in this section?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------A big subject!

I have seen many variations but work on improving only one version. I see variations in practically every motion in the details.
In the double dai bong section lots of things are happening- including among other things- balance while moving forward, balanced energies from both shoulders and elbows, sinking the bridge while maintaining structure , elbows controlling the lin, timing coordination between stepping, structure and elbows. There are other concepts. Concepts-- lead to applications which can be many .

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the input guys.

So what about the start of the form after the punches?. Many of the mainland branches including Ip Man students in Foshan do a similar set of moves before going onto turning.

Paul
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That is biu jong sao motion with both hands while maintaining balance in all directions.
There are differences in details in lineages.

[LoneTiger108]

-------------------------------------------------------------
That is biu jong sao motion with both hands while maintaining balance in all directions.
There are differences in details in lineages.

How many do you do in your form Joy?

I think this is what Paul is refering to as the mainland systems have three that specifically revolve down to upwards. Very similar to Lee Shing family fme as we retain the three but they're more linear.

Most Ip Man lineages only use one, then turn...

[Paul T England]

Yes its the three rpes that I am referring to. This is also done in ip man foshan students versions of the forms but from the information I have its more of a motional technique but I have not seen applications or a underlying principle.

As to why it was dropped from the hong kong versions, now that would be interesting.

Paul

[k gledhill]

Yes its the three rpes that I am referring to. This is also done in ip man foshan students versions of the forms but from the information I have its more of a motional technique but I have not seen applications or a underlying principle.

As to why it was dropped from the hong kong versions, now that would be interesting.

Paul

HK dropped 3 reps of bong sao in chum kil ?

[LoneTiger108]

HK dropped 3 reps of bong sao in chum kil ?

The convo has moved on dude Paul is talking about the opening sets now ;)

I was taught a varied application but very distinct idea about distancing. I have no idea why it was dropped from Ip Mans HK teaching, and doubt it ever was to be honest. May be something his students didn't catch?

Although my Sigung was known for learning from many, it was Ip Man that finalized all his hand forms before sending him to Europe in the 60's. We also have other variations within the three hand forms too but nothing that's too complicated. They do all seem to be 'extended' though and I guess that's connected to Fatshan and Ng Jung So to be fair... and Ip Man knew this anyway.

[Bacon]

Okay so that opening move after the punches is for teaching:

-Coordinating power generation from both arms through squeezing the elbows (in coordination with the rest of the body's proper power generation)
-Coordinating sinking from both elbows (again in concert with the body)
-Coordinating the two one after the other
-Keeping the elbows fixed in the same place as the arms turn into double lan sao.

It can be applied in a number of different ways in practical application but usually the most recoginizable one is with the neck pulling hand (single collar tie for you grapplers).

[Vajramusti]

Yes its the three rpes that I am referring to. This is also done in ip man foshan students versions of the forms but from the information I have its more of a motional technique but I have not seen applications or a underlying principle.

As to why it was dropped from the hong kong versions, now that would be interesting.

Paul
--------------------------------------------------------
Conceptually economy of motion. Don't have to wave up and down.

[LoneTiger108]

--------------------------------------------------------
Conceptually economy of motion. Don't have to wave up and down.

What waves up and down?? There is method to everything and it sure sounds like you may not be open to learning about the older ways...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PcdY8R7po&feature=share&list=PL1ABAEB7A99B7154F

[Vajramusti]

What waves up and down?? There is method to everything and it sure sounds like you may not be open to learning about the older ways...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PcdY8R7po&feature=share&list=PL1ABAEB7A99B7154F
----------------------------------------------

Spencer- I do not do what is called biu jong sao in the way that is shown in the Foshan clip that you cite above. But, I will listen to a decent concept based explanation of the way that both hands are sent out at the beginning of the cited video.By-you or anyone else who thinks that two handed motion as shown in the video, has considerable merit. Best not to create stereotyping of lack of open-ness.

[desertwingchun2]

What waves up and down?? There is method to everything and it sure sounds like you may not be open to learning about the older ways...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PcdY8R7po&feature=share&list=PL1ABAEB7A99B7154F

I have seen this branch before or one similar. Is this another lineage through Lueng Jan?

[Phil Redmond]

Wow, it never stops. So much talk about this form and that form, who has the right way, who is wrong. I don't come here much anymore because my priority is teaching people how to fight. The way to prove your method is by testing it against people outside of Wing Chun. But we all know that Wing Chun is too deadly to compete.....lol. Over the years I've met martial artists from many styles and I learned to expect that look of disdain when I say that I do Wing Chun. We are the laughing stock of the "fighters" in the martial arts world. :(

[Wayfaring]

Wow, it never stops. So much talk about this form and that form, who has the right way, who is wrong. I don't come here much anymore because my priority is teaching people how to fight. The way to prove your method is by testing it against people outside of Wing Chun. But we all know that Wing Chun is too deadly to compete.....lol. Over the years I've met martial artists from many styles and I learned to expect that look of disdain when I say that I do Wing Chun. We are the laughing stock of the "fighters" in the martial arts world. :(

Yes, a lot of talk. I don't get disdain when mentioning Wing Chun to the fighters I train with. Most of them are completely unaware of the art. Maybe a few will say "didn't Bruce Lee study that"?

Which actually may be worse.

[Ali. R]

Wow, it never stops. So much talk about this form and that form, who has the right way, who is wrong. I don't come here much anymore because my priority is teaching people how to fight. The way to prove your method is by testing it against people outside of Wing Chun. But we all know that Wing Chun is too deadly to compete.....lol. Over the years I've met martial artists from many styles and I learned to expect that look of disdain when I say that I do Wing Chun. We are the laughing stock of the "fighters" in the martial arts world. :(

Get e’m Phil, your right on point.

[Bacon]

Wow, it never stops. So much talk about this form and that form, who has the right way, who is wrong. I don't come here much anymore because my priority is teaching people how to fight. The way to prove your method is by testing it against people outside of Wing Chun. But we all know that Wing Chun is too deadly to compete.....lol. Over the years I've met martial artists from many styles and I learned to expect that look of disdain when I say that I do Wing Chun. We are the laughing stock of the "fighters" in the martial arts world. :(

You know Phil I didn't see anyone arguining over who has the right way of doing the form. I saw people sharing bits of information about what they feel their way of doing the form trains. Heck looking back on my post I missed including several things because each of the sections trains a slew of things. Now someone could've jumped on me and pulled the whole "nuh uh, William Cheung's way of doing it is the only way" kinda deal but no one did.

Cool your jets. We were having a lovely discussion before you pooped in.


Now if you have have something to contribute about the things you think you sections of chum kiu train please feel free to share.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am sure that all 3 hand forms tend to vary amongst individuals more than between lineages. My dad taught WC to many young men, and he taught them up to different levels of skill. Mostly they were intended to be able to fight. I suspect that each one has or had his own methods of doing his own thing eventually, and it probably followed down his line as well. I suspect that there are a fair number of individuals that have still got some of their WC training as passed down from their elders as taught by my dad, and I suspect that they are all pretty much different.
Sil Lim is a basic form that teaches a lot of basic things. It can be altered and still teach all the necessary basics. As one progresses into the Chum Kil form they can add and subtract as they feel the need, depending on what they feel they most need to work on. Sil Lim refers to Using a Little Imagination. And that applies to the other forms as well.
Dad always felt that once you had a good set of skills with the first 2 forms you would not really need the third one. It is something quite different from the other 2 and in todays teachings it might not actually reflect it's true purpose.
I can not do the first 2 forms like I did 50 years ago because I can't remember how I did them. I have altered them to fit my own needs somewhat, but if you seen me doing them you would have absolutely no difficulty in knowing what I was doing. The reason for this is because I realized that it made no difference in keeping tradition in appearance. It only mattered that I did them in the proper application. Anything that felt a little off or clumsy, you could repeat several times, both sides. This is the beauty of Sil Lim and Chum Kil, and right or wrong way never did matter.

[Bacon]

Biu jee still serves its purpose. It's fair to say that SLT and CK are the core basis of the movements of the wing chun system and that a lot of what's in Biu Jee is recovery techniques for retaking the centerline if you screw up (just like some of the MYJ stuff is set up for that).
So as far as fighting basics it's not necessary. It is the more advanced recovery stuff though.

And people do their forms a little different for body type, that's a given. Emphasizing stuff in your training a bit because you need to shape it up is cool. But forgetting how or what parts of the form are for because you've been overemphasizing stuff and have forgotten the other stuff is just lazy or incompetent. Not meaning to be mean it's just you've lost some knowledge which could be useful because of shoring up YOUR shortcomings and I don't think that bodes well for your students.

[GlennR]

Wow, it never stops. So much talk about this form and that form, who has the right way, who is wrong. I don't come here much anymore because my priority is teaching people how to fight. The way to prove your method is by testing it against people outside of Wing Chun. But we all know that Wing Chun is too deadly to compete.....lol. Over the years I've met martial artists from many styles and I learned to expect that look of disdain when I say that I do Wing Chun. We are the laughing stock of the "fighters" in the martial arts world. :(

Yep, I'm losing interest in the forum as well Phil, though I'm more a smart a55 than contributor at best.
Having said that, any posts truly fighting related run for a few replays and fade away.
But tell someone that the form they do is wrong and watch out!!! ;)

And I think that WC isn't a laughing stock a,onset the youngsters, that dont even know what it is

[GlennR]

What waves up and down?? There is method to everything and it sure sounds like you may not be open to learning about the older ways...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PcdY8R7po&feature=share&list=PL1ABAEB7A99B7154F

That actually looks a little bit like the style I originally learnt

[wingchunIan]

Losing the forms or failing to pay them due attention is one of the causes of the disintegration of any martial art over time. In the same way that forms can never be the only thing you do so too can they never be completely disregarded. From where I'm standing a few folks on here could do with reflecting on the principle of the centre line. There seems to be two camps, those who would like their Wing Chun to be trained like MMA and those who would prefer their Wing Chun to be trained as a TCMA. There is plenty of room for both and IMHO a good training regime includes both. From my perspective Wing Chun training should take the middle ground and the best from both schools.

[LoneTiger108]

I have seen this branch before or one similar. Is this another lineage through Lueng Jan?

I believe so. They're Fatshan based and coach through the Chinwoo school so they would be 'official' so to speak. One of the Sifus I met there years ago, Mak Yiu Ming, has some very talented and tough students and the Chum Kiu is very similar to his... Cheung Bo lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlWEl7FTTEM

They have a real hard line on the basics and train like the guys 'used to' here in the UK back in the eighties. Full-on, hardcore basic kung fu practise with all the ingredients of Wing Chun added in for good measure!!!

Sifu Mai Yau Ming has the same approach too (but probably because it's the SAME dude lol!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5venPU4CB0

[Lee Chiang Po]

Biu jee still serves its purpose. It's fair to say that SLT and CK are the core basis of the movements of the wing chun system and that a lot of what's in Biu Jee is recovery techniques for retaking the centerline if you screw up (just like some of the MYJ stuff is set up for that).
So as far as fighting basics it's not necessary. It is the more advanced recovery stuff though.

And people do their forms a little different for body type, that's a given. Emphasizing stuff in your training a bit because you need to shape it up is cool. But forgetting how or what parts of the form are for because you've been overemphasizing stuff and have forgotten the other stuff is just lazy or incompetent. Not meaning to be mean it's just you've lost some knowledge which could be useful because of shoring up YOUR shortcomings and I don't think that bodes well for your students.

I don't feel I have lost anything at all. In fact, being able to alter and use the forms like they were intended has probably helped me considerably. I don't have students. Only have ever trained a hand full of people. I just never felt that tradition by way of how a form is done was all that important as much as how it was used to improve skills. My Sil Lim is probably twice as long as what I see on utube because of my altering.