Yuen Kay San - Bridge from the outside

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_4_ZnxUmqw&feature=relmfu

What do you think?

[JPinAZ]

What do we think about what??? I couldn't even tell what you think that clip was supposed to be trying to show, or the point of posting it up. All I saw was a lot of hand chasing and grabbing, poor 'attacks' with no skill challenge, bad facing, no structure, etc....

This is a clear example of another thread where you give no opinion/views of your own, ask a very general question and are not clear about what you are even looking for in the way of a discussion... :rolleyes:

[EternalSpring]

I gotta agree with JPinaz in regards to having no clue as to what you're trying to show us through the video. I know the title of the thread is "bridge from the outside," but "bridging from the outside" is extremely vague and a common Ving Tsun concept in my opinion. What do i think of the video? It's a guy doing expressing his Ving Tsun using some of the many many ways of "bridging from the outside." It's hard to say anything else because the guy doing the techniques is obviously not putting in much effort and neither is his partner. Not saying the guy is bad or cant kick ass, but verall, to my limited perspective, it's a video of a teacher or older brother showing his junior(s) something and thus he has no need to "prove" himself.

[Yoshiyahu]

Im sorry i posted the video to show how the guy which is using Maninland Wing Chun is using techniques to control the other guy...Is he chasing hands or intercepting hands?

I see it as intercepting...But also its very much a basic drill...Also you see him grabbing an pulling the guy with seize the sparrow technique a few times!



What do we think about what??? I couldn't even tell what you think that clip was supposed to be trying to show, or the point of posting it up. All I saw was a lot of hand chasing and grabbing, poor 'attacks' with no skill challenge, bad facing, no structure, etc....

This is a clear example of another thread where you give no opinion/views of your own, ask a very general question and are not clear about what you are even looking for in the way of a discussion... :rolleyes:


I gotta agree with JPinaz in regards to having no clue as to what you're trying to show us through the video. I know the title of the thread is "bridge from the outside," but "bridging from the outside" is extremely vague and a common Ving Tsun concept in my opinion. What do i think of the video? It's a guy doing expressing his Ving Tsun using some of the many many ways of "bridging from the outside." It's hard to say anything else because the guy doing the techniques is obviously not putting in much effort and neither is his partner. Not saying the guy is bad or cant kick ass, but verall, to my limited perspective, it's a video of a teacher or older brother showing his junior(s) something and thus he has no need to "prove" himself.

[EternalSpring]

Im sorry i posted the video to show how the guy which is using Maninland Wing Chun is using techniques to control the other guy...Is he chasing hands or intercepting hands?

I see it as intercepting...But also its very much a basic drill...Also you see him grabbing an pulling the guy with seize the sparrow technique a few times!

well to be honest, I'm not sure what his intention is but my guess is that he's intercepting by moving forward though it can look like chasing since there's no actual forward intent because the partner is moving slowly and in compliance. I'm not familiar with the term "sparrow technique" but to me, it seems like he follows the basic "roads" of making contact outside the bridge by moving his hands forward and then using either some variation of lop-da or a combination of any technique that puts some pressure or at least checks the kiu while hitting.

it does look strange sometimes, but i figure that's just because the guy is doing whatever technique he wants and perhaps is trying to show some sort of emphasis on the part where he pins the lower hand to the chest area and uses that to move into a lop-da (if i was seeing that correctly). But that's my take on it.

[JPinAZ]

Im sorry i posted the video to show how the guy which is using Maninland Wing Chun is using techniques to control the other guy...Is he chasing hands or intercepting hands?

I would agree, he's 'using techniques' to be sure! :rolleyes:
But as Eternal already mentioned, there appears to be no idea of fwd intent at all (along with the improper facing, poor usage of range, etc that I mentioned earlier) which tells me there is no real idea of WC's primary concept of centerline being implied which lead to my comment of chasing hands.

As for controlling, I would disagree. He is moving around a guy that isn't even trying to fight back (for demo puproses I hope!), so it's not really showing much imo. And you'd think he would look a little better against the super compliant parnter you see in the clip, even if he's just playing around.


I see it as intercepting...But also its very much a basic drill...Also you see him grabbing an pulling the guy with seize the sparrow technique a few times!

Not sure what the sparrow technique is either, but I'd agree this appears to be very basic WC. Whether that is intentional or not I have no clue, but I hope so for thier sake! ;)

My quesiton is, what do YOU think of the clip? Do you think this is representive of good drilling of WC concepts?

[Wayfaring]

Im sorry i posted the video to show how the guy which is using Maninland Wing Chun is using techniques to control the other guy...Is he chasing hands or intercepting hands?

I see it as intercepting...But also its very much a basic drill...Also you see him grabbing an pulling the guy with seize the sparrow technique a few times!

I don't know what the YKS guy was really doing in that video - we don't speak the language it was recorded in.

It was some kind of demo. I'm guessing some kind of concept demo - as they weren't really drilling anything. It looked like a blend between a self-defense one-step technique and a real slow version of basic chi sau. All that was happening is one guy was turning his horse 90 degrees to influence the bridge contact.

Could it be he is showing the concept of intercepting long range on the bridge and turning the horse to bring your distance into WCK range? Possibly. But again we don't know. Someone would have to translate what they are saying to know. And his partner wasn't helping standing in YJKYM and throwing compliant punches with no energy.

So all I can really say about it is it is "some YKS guy demoing something".

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_4_ZnxUmqw&feature=relmfu

What do you think?
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A bridge too far!

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_4_ZnxUmqw&feature=relmfu

What do you think?

Ok, may be the teacher there was showing some specific concepts and not focused on the most fundamentally important issues. I am guilty of that often.

However, my two pet hates: chasing hands and controlling someone at the wrist/hand/first gate. If you want to stop the opponent, control at least the second gate or elbow; chase hands and you will always be a step behind your opponent. Every move is an attack.

[Yoshiyahu]

my Mistake...I said sparrow...I meant white crane...sorry!



well to be honest, I'm not sure what his intention is but my guess is that he's intercepting by moving forward though it can look like chasing since there's no actual forward intent because the partner is moving slowly and in compliance. I'm not familiar with the term "sparrow technique" but to me, it seems like he follows the basic "roads" of making contact outside the bridge by moving his hands forward and then using either some variation of lop-da or a combination of any technique that puts some pressure or at least checks the kiu while hitting.

it does look strange sometimes, but i figure that's just because the guy is doing whatever technique he wants and perhaps is trying to show some sort of emphasis on the part where he pins the lower hand to the chest area and uses that to move into a lop-da (if i was seeing that correctly). But that's my take on it.

[JPinAZ]

my Mistake...I said sparrow...I meant white crane...sorry!

Mistakes happen, but this is just as confusing. What does "grabbing an pulling the guy with seize the white crane technique a few times" mean?

[desertwingchun2]

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A bridge too far!

Great Movie!!
And map in BF2 MC:cool:

[Yoshiyahu]

Mistakes happen, but this is just as confusing. What does "grabbing an pulling the guy with seize the white crane technique a few times" mean?

White Crane seizes fox is one YKS signature techniques...

He is simply showing a possible application and self defense technique against various slow attacks so you can practice it with a partner an get use to the motion!

0.17 is basically showing how to bridge when your opponent attacks basically meeting his attack thus closing the gap before he has a chance to launch his second strike then utilize chi sau senstivity to redirect his energy an destroy/sink his bridge so his structure is compromise!

2:01 is the technique white crane seizes fox...basically its suppose to be sweep technique where you pull your opponent an kick his lead leg while he stumbling forward...Basically its to knock one opponent down on the ground so you can attack another! although one can use it to finish a solidary opponent too once on the ground you can kick em while they down or ground and pound!

[imperialtaichi]

White Crane seizes fox is one YKS signature techniques...

He is simply showing a possible application and self defense technique against various slow attacks so you can practice it with a partner an get use to the motion!

0.17 is basically showing how to bridge when your opponent attacks basically meeting his attack thus closing the gap before he has a chance to launch his second strike then utilize chi sau senstivity to redirect his energy an destroy/sink his bridge so his structure is compromise!

2:01 is the technique white crane seizes fox...basically its suppose to be sweep technique where you pull your opponent an kick his lead leg while he stumbling forward...Basically its to knock one opponent down on the ground so you can attack another! although one can use it to finish a solidary opponent too once on the ground you can kick em while they down or ground and pound!

You CANNOT control an opponent at the wrist, and leave your body vulnerable to his elbows! I keep seeing all the gaps the opponent can charge in with the elbows. In controlled demos the opponent may not want to get aggressive nor commit. In a real fight your opponent is going to charge in and want to finish you. He WILL use his elbows, full forced elbows.

[Bacon]

You CANNOT control an opponent at the wrist, and leave your body vulnerable to his elbows! I keep seeing all the gaps the opponent can charge in with the elbows. In controlled demos the opponent may not want to get aggressive nor commit. In a real fight your opponent is going to charge in and want to finish you. He WILL use his elbows, full forced elbows.

You can control at the wrist but the best control in wing chun is always at the elbow.

[SAAMAG]

If you're going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you're going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.

In a real fight...the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it's best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.

[Yoshiyahu]

Its not wise to charge in from outside the gate with elbows. You leave your self vunerable because the elbow is a short range weapon...The wing chun punch is longer...So charging in will take you a moment to get close enough to land one...especially if im agile an non-committed. In WC i learn you are relentless and aggressive but you dont fully committ to the point where you open or able to be controlled. Come in with elbows if you want to..i will simply deflect or redirect while flanking you an kicking your knees out from under you simultaneously...


You CANNOT control an opponent at the wrist, and leave your body vulnerable to his elbows! I keep seeing all the gaps the opponent can charge in with the elbows. In controlled demos the opponent may not want to get aggressive nor commit. In a real fight your opponent is going to charge in and want to finish you. He WILL use his elbows, full forced elbows.

[Yoshiyahu]

You can control at the wrist but the best control in wing chun is always at the elbow.

There is away to control the elbow so your opponent can not collasp an use it as weapon!

[Yoshiyahu]

:) Great post


If you're going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you're going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.

In a real fight...the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it's best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.

[imperialtaichi]

You can control at the wrist but the best control in wing chun is always at the elbow.

Not the way he's doing it.

[imperialtaichi]

Its not wise to charge in from outside the gate with elbows. You leave your self vunerable because the elbow is a short range weapon...The wing chun punch is longer...So charging in will take you a moment to get close enough to land one...especially if im agile an non-committed. In WC i learn you are relentless and aggressive but you dont fully committ to the point where you open or able to be controlled. Come in with elbows if you want to..i will simply deflect or redirect while flanking you an kicking your knees out from under you simultaneously...

Completely missing the point.

[imperialtaichi]

If you're going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you're going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.

In a real fight...the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it's best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.

In a real fight, it only lasts seconds. You just need to completely dominate those seconds and destroy the opponent. You are not chasing hands while watching an entire episode of Tom and Jerry. You don't have to do the entire set of Gangnam moves.

[SAAMAG]

So then the way to dominate is by controlling their elbows? Is that what you're saying?

[imperialtaichi]

So then the way to dominate is by controlling their elbows? Is that what you're saying?

Know your opponent's "gates"; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro's and con's of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.

In general, I would not go straight for the opponent's head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is "attack is my defense", I don't mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent's ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.

While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.

[GlennR]

Know your opponent's "gates"; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro's and con's of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.

In general, I would not go straight for the opponent's head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is "attack is my defense", I don't mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent's ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.

While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.

Totally agree John.
If you're going to go blasting in for head shots that's a reall limited way to look at wing chun. Boxers would label you a headhunter, the difference being that boxing has more shots than WC to use this approach and that's why WCers are shwn as one dimensional when they apply this.
WC is all about the bridge and controlling the opponent WHILST striking him, that's its trick up its sleeve so to say..... And IMO kicking is an important part of ths strategy.

My two bobs worth for the day

[SAAMAG]

Know your opponent's "gates"; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro's and con's of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.

In general, I would not go straight for the opponent's head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is "attack is my defense", I don't mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent's ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.

While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.

That was a great post actually. The idea of controlling their gates as you enter is a given if you're advancing from distance to clinch to ground, and thats essetially what I'm saying. Added to that--the notion that you're not going to control someone an entire fight by their limbs, assuming he fight is with someone of about the same skill.

If you're fighting some joe blow it might end after the first blow, but if not one has to move and transition either into closer ranges or maintain distance and control the fight with positioning and striking. If you just hang out in the pocket--unless you're Floyd Mayweather--you're going to take a lot of damage as you'll be in range for every single weapon they have.

That said--you guys should watch some of Jack Johnson and Willie Pep fights. I was turned onto these older aged boxers because of their use of clinch work and very CMA-like bridge work to maintain defense.

[GlennR]

That was a great post actually. The idea of controlling their gates as you enter is a given if you're advancing from distance to clinch to ground, and thats essetially what I'm saying. Added to that--the notion that you're not going to control someone an entire fight by their limbs, assuming he fight is with someone of about the same skill.

If you're fighting some joe blow it might end after the first blow, but if not one has to move and transition either into closer ranges or maintain distance and control the fight with positioning and striking. If you just hang out in the pocket--unless you're Floyd Mayweather--you're going to take a lot of damage as you'll be in range for every single weapon they have.

Exactly, the idea that you can dominate in close (using WC) without controlling bridges and hopefully the opponents COG just doesn't work against a stylist such as a boxer

[Wayfaring]

While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.

Controlling the first gate at the wrist can provide you with an instant of leverage to move in closer protected and feed towards controlling the second gate. The window of opportunity at the wrist is smaller than the elbow or shoulder though.

[Yoshiyahu]

I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory...very good...

Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist...in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily...some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily...But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist...i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking...My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so...Not with the intent to grab his wrist...but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!

[Bacon]

I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory...very good...

Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist...in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily...some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily...But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist...i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking...My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so...Not with the intent to grab his wrist...but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!

If you go in with intent to do this or that you will be chasing a trap when you should let it go and chasing hands when you should not. The goal should be to hit him. Anything else is only how to get there and if the current road has too many potholes.. Switch!

[imperialtaichi]

I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory...very good...

Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist...in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily...some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily...But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist...i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking...My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so...Not with the intent to grab his wrist...but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!

My single purpose is to attack; collecting the gates are collateral damage. Force your opponent to deal with you, make him play your game.

Chase the opponent's bridge and you will always be a step behind.

[jesper]

I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory...very good...

Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist...in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily...some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily...But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist...i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking...My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so...Not with the intent to grab his wrist...but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!

You think to much. hit him and if something gets in the way, remove/control and hit him again

[Yoshiyahu]

I dont think people understand what im saying...

Im not saying approach the bloke with hands up trying to look for a trap...im saying the same thing your saying im just skipping to part dealing with the bridge work...

Theory: Attack Relentless, Control Aggressively, Flow continously...

You should always be attacking and sticking close to opponent...If your goal is to stay close to him he will strike defenseviely or he will retreat or side step. In all cases your always attacking and advancing upon him trying to maintain contact or a occupy space where theres a bridge. Its not about putting you hands out to touch his guards or trying to grab his hands to do some chin na move...

Nope its all about attacking or moving obstructions. If he has his guards up to face i attack his guards an his face simultaneously...Not chasing hands. If he punches, i intercept his punch while striking.

The first thing you do is ATTACK...When you attack relentlessly you keep close to him stick to him everywhere he goes your right infront of him not letting him go...When you control basically you flow from techique to technique causing him to be off balance, loss of structure or destroy his bridge by pressing in to him while hitting. Kinda like an ole school fight in the streets when someone pulls the other guy shirt over his head an starts hitting him when he cant be hit back...the entire time he was attacking..an when an opening presented itself he took advantage thus protecting his centerline by destroying his opponents structure an ability to fight back...If you have no control or flow attacking wont work unless you can get off a one hitter quitter!