What's the deal with roundhouse kicks???

[Kellen Bassette]

Here's one that's bothered me for years...where is the roundhouse kick in all the old forms? The roundhouse is one of the most basic kicks in practically every striking style...and it is usually drilled and used pretty aggressively in most Asian martial arts.

The problem is that you never see roundhouse kicks in, pre-Communist forms, or in classical Okinawan Karate katas either. I'm sure someone will come up with some example, (maybe in Choy Lay Fut forms, not sure), but the question remains. If the roundhouse is such an important kick, why isn't it all over in the old forms?

Obviously the kick was utilized in TCMA, it's fundamental in Sanda; and it's the most natural, instinctive kick there is, besides the front kick. (Even untrained children will use some variation of a roundhouse kick on each other.)

The same phenomenon exists in classical Okinawan Karate. The roundhouse kick is drilled at every dojo out there, but not to be found in any traditional, (we'll say pre-WWII,) katas. This may be because most the classical Karate material is derived from Fujian Kung Fu systems, but why is the roundhouse so important to those arts today?

Then we have the different styles of roundhouses. The two most common variations are the snapping roundhouse, where the instep is used for the kick and the leg is rechambered after kicking, (what I call the Korean roundhouse,) and the kick with the shin; with follow through and no rechambering, (the Thai roundhouse.) I've trained under several different senseis and shifus and have learned both those styles of kicking, depending on the teacher, not the style.

Besides those, there is also the roundhouse with the ball of the foot; and a cutting roundhouse on a 45 degree angle with the heel. Of course there's tons of subtle differences in the "proper" execution, school to school, but we won't worry about the technical stuff.

I'm curious as to which kick you learned as the roundhouse. (I'm sure many of you train more than one version, but there's probably one style your school used day in and day out.)

I was told that the "traditional" Okinawan roundhouse kick, was with the ball of the foot, to the knee. In spite of the fact that 90% of Karateka, use the snapping roundhouse with the instep. I think this may be correct, (even though you don't see the other roundhouse in the old katas either.)

Now my theory. I think Karate borrowed the "Korean" roundhouse from Tae Kwon Do. I also think most of the early Chinese MA schools in the States; (and probably the Hong Kong schools,) did the same thing. Tae Kwon Do spread more rapidly than any other MA, due to their aggressive, world-wide, franchising. The "Korean" roundhouse was also popular in the early MA movies.

I think the roundhouse has always been around in TCMA, in various incarnations, but has risen considerably in importance since the '60's due to the reasons above.

Or maybe it was invented by Chuck Norris and he delivered each variation to the respective disciplines, while keeping the most powerful for himself.

[Jimbo]

Muay Thai had its version of the roundhouse kick, probably for centuries.

I heard somewhere that the Japanese roundhouse kick (mawashi-geri) was developed by Gigo(?) Funakoshi, son of Shotokan founder, Gichin. Supposedly, he designed it as a variation of the Mae-Geri (front kick), to enable one to land it at a different angle, in kumite (free-sparring). This was with the ball of the foot. Gigo supposedly liked the sporting/competitive aspect, which his father disapproved of. I don't think that Gichin himself ever practiced the roundhouse kick. Gigo died sometime in the mid-to-late '40s, I believe. He was also responsible for making Shotokan's stances wider/deeper, the kicks higher, and the movements more expansive. Basically, making it as it's seen today.

For most MA, I think the instep roundhouse is a more recent development, maybe becoming more commonly practiced in the 1960s or so.

[Sima Rong]

When I did Shorinji Kempo, we did the chambered ball of the foot roundhouse kick to the body and a kind of shin kick to the leg when in close. I'm not sure if the shin kick was part of the art though, or whether some high level practitioners that did Thai boxing threw it in as part of the mix.

I'm more familiar with this kind of motion in Shaolin as the lihe tui, a kind of full leg swing from the ground which I guess can use any part of the lower leg to connect with, or the side of the heel/foot (maybe like the okinawan karate inward crescent kick?) but Shaolin contains a whole lot of different kinds of kicks, many of which I haven't encountered yet. I wouldn't be surprised if there are 'roundhouse' kicks with the toes in there somewhere too.

[Lee Chiang Po]

There was a time in history when people made a living with their fighting prowess. It also seemed to be a practice in safety too. Your very life would usually depend on whether or not you lost or won a fight. Fancy high kicks and kicks that required one to use lots of dance skill and coordination were probably avoided. Only in more modern times have such kicks been developed, and for the most part it is for show and tell. TV and movies you know.

[RenDaHai]

It does appear, but not much, not in old forms.

Why? When would you use it? Sure I know it is used in competition, but realistically it is always trumped by a kick to the nuts. To do it you have to lean your body and open your groin, even when you kick low it is simply too much risk for too little reward. It is possible but rare to finish someone with a roundhouse to the knee, much easier to finish with a snap to the groin.

Generally Kung fu uses LiHe Tui, the cresent kick, can be done with the back straight and no telegraphing. It can be used with simultaneous strike of the hand. Often for example use the ball of the foot to kick upwards into your opponents kidneys while simultaneously striking 'Guan Er' with the opposite hand (off hand covers groin, or grabs opponents arm), (Guan Er is a cupped hand slap to the ear). If you are wearing 'TiSiNiuXie' (kick bull to death shoes) then just strike with the spike.

[GeneChing]

realistically it is always trumped by a kick to the nuts. Ain't everything? :p

[kwaichang]

Round house is a derivationof the front kick it was developed in Japan , at the Tokyo University along with the Lower stances not by Gigo but by the teacher there named / Shoot cant remember. However the art of Tae Kwion do as taught as a National past time derives from Tae Gyun the trad Koreanart. And Shotokan and the Kata are derived from the Heian forms taught by Gichin Funakoshi. That is where the RH kick originated as it is thrown in Okinawan and Japanese arts. Ie the ball of the foot snapping style. The follow through kickis Thai and the invert Kick derives from Savat and is also well known in Tang Lang styles. I will think of the mans name and let you know KC

[Vajramusti]

Correct on the karate round house.Pre TKD.TKD forms got started when Gen Choi who had studied in Japan
adapted tkd from shotokan... changing some key things.

Wing chun gung fu has a roundhouse kick but it uses the top of the instep.

[Kellen Bassette]

Well I've certainly seen the "Karate" or "TKD" roundhouse used in many Chinese arts as well. I've also seen pictures from the '20's of Shaolin practitioners kicking bags with the roundhouse, using the shin. I don't believe the concept is new at all, just the amount of importance placed on it.

As to the practicality, a high roundhouse is hard to land and leaves you open, I've never liked it that much, but a low roundhouse is a devastating street fighting technique. Sure, the kick to the balls is the end all best technique, no argument there, but a shin to the thigh is very high probability, often easy to land on a fighter with experience and extremely easy on an untrained fighter. One solid roundhouse to the thigh by a conditioned shin can easily end the fight, the instep can also do a number on the leg. The low roundhouse is extremely practical and I'm sure this was known to old TCMA practitioners, since Iron Leg training was fairly common.

[Syn7]

Ain't everything? :p

Unfortunately it is not as effective as one would think in an adrenaline filled battle. Especially if it's for real, life or death.

When somebody accidentally knocks you in the sac, you have that quick delay then the OUCH comes. You walk it off or whatever. It hurts like a motherfukcer. But when it's in a real fight, you can fight through it cause you have to. That's not to say it doesn't work, or is a bad move. It's just not an end all solution to any violence like some people seem to think. Like forms that end with a downside backfist to the sac? Seriously? That's your end move? I find it most effective in the middle of a combo. More of a distraction than a dropper. It sets up knees and uppercut type punches. Solar plexus is a better non lethal stopper. And you aren't potentially ending a bloodline:D I've seen more people drop from being winded than nutsacked, during a fight that is.

[Kellen Bassette]

Correct on the karate round house.Pre TKD.TKD forms got started when Gen Choi who had studied in Japan
adapted tkd from shotokan... changing some key things.

Wing chun gung fu has a roundhouse kick but it uses the top of the instep.

By the way, I'm well aware Karate predates TKD, but as I said you never see the roundhouse in the old katas, but you see them in TKD forms. Hence my theory of the younger art influencing the older ones...kind of like the back and forth influence between Dylan and the Beatles...just a theory though.....

[Kellen Bassette]

Unfortunately it is not as effective as one would think in an adrenaline filled battle. Especially if it's for real, life or death.

When somebody accidentally knocks you in the sac, you have that quick delay then the OUCH comes. You walk it off or whatever. It hurts like a motherfukcer. But when it's in a real fight, you can fight through it cause you have to. That's not to say it doesn't work, or is a bad move. It's just not an end all solution to any violence like some people seem to think. Like forms that end with a downside backfist to the sac? Seriously? That's your end move? I find it most effective in the middle of a combo. More of a distraction than a dropper. It sets up knees and uppercut type punches. Solar plexus is a better non lethal stopper. And you aren't potentially ending a bloodline:D I've seen more people drop from being winded than nutsacked, during a fight that is.

You shouldn't stop because you hit them in the balls. You then hit them again somewhere else.

Right on about the backfist to the groin, awesome for setting up a serious strike but can't be relied on alone...an open backhand slap to the nuts works real well for this too...easy to slip in and just enough distraction for the cross, palm or elbow.

Solar Plexus is beautiful, often easier to hit the ribs or kidneys with a similar, satisfying effect.

[bawang]

Here's one that's bothered me for years...where is the roundhouse kick in all the old forms? The roundhouse is one of the most basic kicks in practically every striking style...and it is usually drilled and used pretty aggressively in most Asian martial arts.

The problem is that you never see roundhouse kicks in, pre-Communist forms, or in classical Okinawan Karate katas either. I'm sure someone will come up with some example, (maybe in Choy Lay Fut forms, not sure), but the question remains. If the roundhouse is such an important kick, why isn't it all over in the old forms?

Obviously the kick was utilized in TCMA, it's fundamental in Sanda; and it's the most natural, instinctive kick there is, besides the front kick. (Even untrained children will use some variation of a roundhouse kick on each other.)

The same phenomenon exists in classical Okinawan Karate. The roundhouse kick is drilled at every dojo out there, but not to be found in any traditional, (we'll say pre-WWII,) katas. This may be because most the classical Karate material is derived from Fujian Kung Fu systems, but why is the roundhouse so important to those arts today?

Then we have the different styles of roundhouses. The two most common variations are the snapping roundhouse, where the instep is used for the kick and the leg is rechambered after kicking, (what I call the Korean roundhouse,) and the kick with the shin; with follow through and no rechambering, (the Thai roundhouse.) I've trained under several different senseis and shifus and have learned both those styles of kicking, depending on the teacher, not the style.

Besides those, there is also the roundhouse with the ball of the foot; and a cutting roundhouse on a 45 degree angle with the heel. Of course there's tons of subtle differences in the "proper" execution, school to school, but we won't worry about the technical stuff.

I'm curious as to which kick you learned as the roundhouse. (I'm sure many of you train more than one version, but there's probably one style your school used day in and day out.)

I was told that the "traditional" Okinawan roundhouse kick, was with the ball of the foot, to the knee. In spite of the fact that 90% of Karateka, use the snapping roundhouse with the instep. I think this may be correct, (even though you don't see the other roundhouse in the old katas either.)

Now my theory. I think Karate borrowed the "Korean" roundhouse from Tae Kwon Do. I also think most of the early Chinese MA schools in the States; (and probably the Hong Kong schools,) did the same thing. Tae Kwon Do spread more rapidly than any other MA, due to their aggressive, world-wide, franchising. The "Korean" roundhouse was also popular in the early MA movies.

I think the roundhouse has always been around in TCMA, in various incarnations, but has risen considerably in importance since the '60's due to the reasons above.

Or maybe it was invented by Chuck Norris and he delivered each variation to the respective disciplines, while keeping the most powerful for himself.

hy

wrassling

[Syn7]

You shouldn't stop because you hit them in the balls. You then hit them again somewhere else.

Right on about the backfist to the groin, awesome for setting up a serious strike but can't be relied on alone...an open backhand slap to the nuts works real well for this too...easy to slip in and just enough distraction for the cross, palm or elbow.

Solar Plexus is beautiful, often easier to hit the ribs or kidneys with a similar, satisfying effect.

Ever been dropped by a kick to the liver? It's a very scary feeling because you don't feel pain as much as a loss of bodily control. You're legs betray you and down you go. It sucks!

[Bacon]

Lo and behold! I have the answer!

You're thinking too much of empty handed styles only. Keep in mind that up until quite recently pretty much all martial arts were either integrated weapon and hand styles, weapon primarily with some hand, or weapon only. The empty hand stuff had to assume you were fighting an armed opponent.

The roundhouse is not something you're going to go pulling against an opponent wielding a sword, or staff, or naginata, or spear, or bolo etc. even if you got close you're then in the wrong range.

In most of the older arts like Muay Boran which have roundhouse or spinning head kicks, anything above the waist basically, you are facing an empty handed opponent or using it as a last ditch attack because you're trying to be unpredictable and/or out of options. Most martial arts styles coming out of that kind of weapons integrated environment won't advocate head kicks and if they do then not as something to train often. Waist and below is the old school way of doing things so even with something like wing chun any group which has a roundhouse... It's a modern addition.

[RenDaHai]

My point about hitting the balls is not so much just its power, but if someone roundhouses you you can immediately counter with a kick to the balls. A shin to the thigh is not as powerful in the adrenaline either. If you are fast you can parry a roundhouse with a kick to the balls. It is also the easiest of the kicks to catch, and if your leg is caught you can't protect your balls, if you have iron balls, the perineum and bladder are both great targets.

Also Bacon has a point here.

Also If you see a form where kicks appear seemingly too much, this may be because it is designed for wearing either steel capped shoes, or the infamous (in china) TiSiNiuXie (Kick a Bull to death shoe). This has a spike hidden on the end of the shoe. With such a weapon off course you would focus on kicks, and kicks that can be done with the toes.






When somebody accidentally knocks you in the sac, you have that quick delay then the OUCH comes. You walk it off or whatever. It hurts like a motherfukcer. But when it's in a real fight, you can fight through it cause you have to. That's not to say it doesn't work, or is a bad move. It's just not an end all solution to any violence like some people seem to think. Like forms that end with a downside backfist to the sac? Seriously? That's your end move? I find it most effective in the middle of a combo. More of a distraction than a dropper. It sets up knees and uppercut type punches. Solar plexus is a better non lethal stopper. And you aren't potentially ending a bloodline:D I've seen more people drop from being winded than nutsacked, during a fight that is.


Its not a finisher, but often it is a control move. For example, kick in the balls, as they bend foreward (most people do), jingang pounds morter on the back of the head. There are many moves that will momentarily collapse the persons body enough for you to grab the head and push it down and hit it.

What is a downside backfist? I use a backfist moving upwards for the groin. Often a downwards moving backfist is not to the groin but attacking the back of the head of an opponent who is bent over... That is a finisher. The move before is probably one that will collapse him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There were no CLASSICAL roundhouse kicks in any forms before the 20th century (typically) because, quite simply, they didn't have any because those styles did not use it.

The round house kicked was borrowed from Muay Thai round kick in the sense that, when Karatekas saw it, they modified their existing crescent kick into a round house.
The differences were that, just like the crescent kick, the round house became an "in close" kick, as opposed to the more "distance" round kick from MT.
The round house kick owes its popularity to TKD, it was TKD that made the round house a staple of its fighting. far beyond what it was in shotokan ( where Choi MAY have learned it, but there is debate about that since some old Taekyon forms SEEM to have a round kick of sorts).
There are "triangle kicks" in some TCMA that MAY be viewed as round houses.

Forms were used as a "catalog" of techniques and the fact that the oldest forms do NOT have the round house kicks speaks volumes.

Even in TKD, you only learn the round kick (form wise) when you get into the brown/red belt level, in the form called Hwarang I think ( going on memory here).

There are no JKA or traditional okinawan forms that have mawashi-geri.

[Brule]

Ever been dropped by a kick to the liver? It's a very scary feeling because you don't feel pain as much as a loss of bodily control. You're legs betray you and down you go. It sucks!

YEs, and how about a shot to the kidneys? Almost the same feeling, all of a sudden you need to lie down and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

[David Jamieson]

In the Kung fu I learned, there are no roundhouse kicks at all.
Roundhouse kick is in none of the sets.

we played it outside the regular curriculum on the bag and in sparring, but it is not in the system(s) I learned.

[MasterKiller]

In the Kung fu I learned, there are no roundhouse kicks at all.
Roundhouse kick is in none of the sets.

we played it outside the regular curriculum on the bag and in sparring, but it is not in the system(s) I learned.

Kung Fu no workie when you break your leg.

http://www.mma4life.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/corey_hill_leg_break.jpg

[omarthefish]

...A shin to the thigh is not as powerful in the adrenaline either....

You have clearly never experienced one...or even watched on in a match. The shin to the thigh does not depend on pain. You kick the illio-tibial tract hard enough around mid thigh and the entire leg just goes limp. It doesn't really matter what kind of pain tolerance adrenaline has given you. The leg will be useless for a while.

[MightyB]

There were no CLASSICAL roundhouse kicks in any forms before the 20th century (typically) because, quite simply, they didn't have any because those styles did not use it.

There are "triangle kicks" in some TCMA that MAY be viewed as round houses.



I'm not sure what you mean by "triangle Kick" but there is a kick that I'd say could be classified as a "round house" kick that's in many traditional 7* Praying Mantis kung fu forms. It's not a lead technique, it's used as a follow up after you've tied up the person's hands. You set it up by catching the opponent's right hand punch with your left in an overhand grip (foom sau) (sp?) while simultaneously delivering a right downward angled backfist (bung choi) (sp?), the opponent blocks with his left hand - and that's when you throw the kick.

[Golden Arms]

You have clearly never experienced one...or even watched on in a match. The shin to the thigh does not depend on pain. You kick the illio-tibial tract hard enough around mid thigh and the entire leg just goes limp. It doesn't really matter what kind of pain tolerance adrenaline has given you. The leg will be useless for a while.

I don't agree if you are well conditioned. Not only have I seen Thais in Lumpinee take round kick after round kick and keep fighting, I have taken many of them from opponents of equal and greater size in over 30 San Shou and Kuo Shu fights and never been dropped by one. I did have a fight where my legs were so banged up I couldn't walk without a limp for a week after, but that did not kick in until that evening.

I also agree however that against the untrained they are generally devastating, most have no answer for them and it makes them wary to be close enough to hit you if you don't drop them with the first one.

Reliable show stoppers in my experience tend to be things that:
1) Over-ride the nervous system in some way (KO, some liver shots, blood and air chokes, attacks to the side of the neck, causing the diaphragm to spasm)
2) Break the structure of the body (bone breaks on a major limb or the back and neck, dislocations, severing/amputation)
3) Injuries that cause psychological distress or concern in the individual that they are not prepared to push though (torn or injured eyes, testicles, disfigured or torn parts off the body, and anything else that can fit in that category)

Depending on the person an mental state what stops one may not even register for another. I watched a guy on PCP or something similar once work at dislocating both shoulders and smash his face into the ground repeatedly until it was a mess while being restrained for example. These same injuries might have stopped another person in their tracks.

[Subitai]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai
realistically it is always trumped by a kick to the nuts


Ain't everything? :p

HAHAHAHAHAHA, DUDE I SAT BACK AND BELLY LAUGHED WHEN I READ THESE QUOTES PUT TOGETHER!!!

I guess it just hit me the right way....:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not sure what you mean by "triangle Kick" but there is a kick that I'd say could be classified as a "round house" kick that's in many traditional 7* Praying Mantis kung fu forms. It's not a lead technique, it's used as a follow up after you've tied up the person's hands. You set it up by catching the opponent's right hand punch with your left in an overhand grip (foom sau) (sp?) while simultaneously delivering a right downward angled backfist (bung choi) (sp?), the opponent blocks with his left hand - and that's when you throw the kick.

A "triangle kick" is a kick that comes up and in at a 45 to the target.
Usually ball of the foot but not always.
A classical round house lifts the knee and the kick comes in at a 90 degree angle, it doesn't typiclaly go Up or down, but straight in.
ROUND kicks, like the MT ones( called hooks kicks in some systems and NOT to be confused with hooks kicks/reverse round houses in TKD) can come in straight, upward or down ward.

[RenDaHai]

You have clearly never experienced one...or even watched on in a match. The shin to the thigh does not depend on pain. You kick the illio-tibial tract hard enough around mid thigh and the entire leg just goes limp. It doesn't really matter what kind of pain tolerance adrenaline has given you. The leg will be useless for a while.

I've played sanda over my weight category in China, it can drop you to your knee, but it doesn't render you ineffective in combat. No way near as devastating as the easier, faster and more protective kick to the nuts.

The worst was when I was kicked by a small sanda player. He relaxed his foot so that when he kicked bian tui, he aimed at the knee and his foot hooked around the knee in a whipping motion at high speed so he caught the back of my knee with the full force of the strike. That made me limp for a month, but it did not take me out of the fight at the time.



Bian tui is comparitively easy to guard, easy to see coming, easy to catch, leaves you open and can only do a lot of damage if you land it dead on target.

[GeneChing]

I guess it just hit me the right way....:)
The best place to kick a guy = the nuts
The best time to attack someone = when he's taking a dump*

*I learned that from you, bro, but I haven't tested this theory yet. I'll take your word on it. ;)

[Bacon]

The best place to kick a guy = the nuts
The best time to attack someone = when he's taking a dump*

*I learned that from you, bro, but I haven't tested this theory yet. I'll take your word on it. ;)

Really? I learns that from Pulp Fiction :p

[-N-]

You set it up by catching the opponent's right hand punch with your left in an overhand grip (foom sau) (sp?) while simultaneously delivering a right downward angled backfist (bung choi) (sp?), the opponent blocks with his left hand - and that's when you throw the kick.

Fung sau with bung choi.

The kick is a groin kick. Up and arcing in at the top.

Throw the kick even before the person blocks. Right when he first thinks about blocking.

[MightyB]

Fung sau with bung choi.

The kick is a groin kick. Up and arcing in at the top.

Throw the kick even before the person blocks. Right when he first thinks about blocking.

It makes me think that must be what Sanjuru was calling a triangle kick. I still think you can classify it as a type of round-house because of the path it takes and it's probably the precursor to the modern round-house that tkd uses since it has the same basic mechanics albeit less exaggerated.

[omarthefish]

I don't agree if you are well conditioned....I also agree however that against the untrained they are generally devastating, most have no answer for them and it makes them wary to be close enough to hit you if you don't drop them with the first one.
I suppose you're right. I was thinking about the people I have seen dropped by one. It wasn't with a cry of pain. More a look of fear and confusion and I've seen how they tried to stand on the leg and then just fell over. But yes, I've also seen more experienced fighters keep fighting. Heck, just last year a buddy of mine lost his fight due to a leg kick but not at the moment. It was an amateur fight and they just called it at the end of the round rather than let him take another round of punishment. The next day (evening) the two of us decided to check out the rest of HK and he was barely able to walk. He was limping severely and if we had to climb stairs like at a subway station....lol.

So kind of similar to a nuts shot that way. I guess, after thinking about it some more, I was wrong about that one.

[Syn7]

Its not a finisher, but often it is a control move. For example, kick in the balls, as they bend foreward (most people do), jingang pounds morter on the back of the head. There are many moves that will momentarily collapse the persons body enough for you to grab the head and push it down and hit it.

What is a downside backfist? I use a backfist moving upwards for the groin. Often a downwards moving backfist is not to the groin but attacking the back of the head of an opponent who is bent over... That is a finisher. The move before is probably one that will collapse him.

Isn't that what I said? Strike the groin, collar tie and dummy his ass.



When I said downside backfist it was just an example to make a point. But the move I had in my head was when the lead arm swings down sort of looking like a bell in a side horse, but swings thru to the groin. More of a hammerfist than a backfist on the downside really. I was trying to keep the term as generic as possible to avoid confusion. Sorry. You see it all the time, where they go up down up down by rotating the elbow. A distraction maybe, but not exactly a power strike.

[RenDaHai]

When I said downside backfist it was just an example to make a point. But the move I had in my head was when the lead arm swings down sort of looking like a bell in a side horse, but swings thru to the groin. More of a hammerfist than a backfist on the downside really. I was trying to keep the term as generic as possible to avoid confusion. Sorry. You see it all the time, where they go up down up down by rotating the elbow. A distraction maybe, but not exactly a power strike.

Oh, ok, got ya. I was confused.

[Syn7]

I am dazed and confused :D

I'll sleep it off later! My ride is late and I'm already buzzing hard. Don't ya hate having to rely on others?

Did I describe it well? I'm not sure what the Chinese terms for that would be. Like I said before, whenever I'm told names I hear GYUT^&RFR5FTRY3KJY^%48$6E4DF!!!! In one ear, out the other. The only time I remember is when I make silly associations in my head.

[TenTigers]

contrary to what Korean MAists claim, Taekyon was not a martial art at all, but a classical dance that was employed in the early development of TKD to separate it from Shotokan making it more,"Korean." The histories were created later.
Check out the book, "A Killing Art." about the development of TKD. A real eye opener.

[taai gihk yahn]

contrary to what Korean MAists claim, Taekyon was not a martial art at all, but a classical dance that was employed in the early development of TKD to separate it from Shotokan making it more,"Korean." The histories were created later.
Check out the book, "A Killing Art." about the development of TKD. A real eye opener.

really; besides, everyone knows that the true original Korean MA is Hwarang Do...

http://wwwmartialarts2010.wikispaces.com/file/view/bro80-1.jpg/124825535/504x381/bro80-1.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

contrary to what Korean MAists claim, Taekyon was not a martial art at all, but a classical dance that was employed in the early development of TKD to separate it from Shotokan making it more,"Korean." The histories were created later.
Check out the book, "A Killing Art." about the development of TKD. A real eye opener.

An excellent read.

[TenTigers]

An excellent read.
I can't recall who turned me on to this book..probably you!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can't recall who turned me on to this book..probably you!:D

Maybe, I got it before it went to the public.

[Jimbo]

I read The Killing Art, and IMO it's very good.

I have a book somewhere that I read in the early '80s about the history of Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do and TKD, which talked about some of the political stuff between General Choi and Hwang Kee, and how many TSD teachers/practitioners were enticed or pressured to switch the name of their art to TKD. That's why you also have Moo Duk Kwan TKD. I guess for a time, TSD was being repressed in Korea to some degree(?). It's been a long time since I read it. I believe the author's name was Robert Caputo.

Nowadays, though, the divide is very noticeable, with TSD pretty much retaining its obvious karate roots, which TKD has sought more and more to distance itself from.

[mooyingmantis]

The round house kicked was borrowed from Muay Thai round kick in the sense that, when Karatekas saw it, they modified their existing crescent kick into a round house.


Sanjuro,

About 20 years ago I read a book by Yamaguchi or Funakoshi that stated the opposite. The cresent kick was developed by students too lazy to master a proper mawashi-geri.

My statement doesn't have a lot of authority I know. But I do remember having read this. Perhaps someone else more up to date on karate knowledge remembers reading this too.

[YouKnowWho]

Do people realize that those who are good in roundhouse kick are always bad in "foot sweep". Both roundhouse kick and foot sweep are similiar but the training and principle are completely different.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro,

About 20 years ago I read a book by Yamaguchi or Funakoshi that stated the opposite. The cresent kick was developed by students too lazy to master a proper mawashi-geri.

My statement doesn't have a lot of authority I know. But I do remember having read this. Perhaps someone else more up to date on karate knowledge remembers reading this too.

Going on forms alone, that have always been a catalog of sorts for MA systems, we do NOT see any mawashi-geri in any of the traditional forms.
That says a lot because, typically, we do see almost every other basic technique.
Since the crescent kick is NOT used the way a roundhouse kick is used, I am not sure about that comment from Funakoshi.
SInce the crescent kick is, if I recall correctly, first seen in the more advanced katas, that doesn't seem to make sense either.

[Kellen Bassette]

Got to agree with Sanjuro...Crescent kick shows up in higher Okinawan Kata. Kusanku and Suparenpai come to mind....of course it's in countless Chinese forms...

[mawali]

contrary to what Korean MAists claim, Taekyon was not a martial art at all, but a classical dance that was employed in the early development of TKD to separate it from Shotokan making it more,"Korean." The histories were created later.
Check out the book, "A Killing Art." about the development of TKD. A real eye opener.

I am aware that much of TKD has a Shotokan origin while the Taekyon remnants was an attempt to resurrect Korean martial art and lore. Many of the Shotokan Korean experts had belts in japanese karate so when the nationalist shift came about, they attempted to go back in history and form this new landmark.

[Neeros]

Roundhouse or Naught Monkey Kicks Tree is one of our 4 basic kicks. It differs from muay thai in that it is more from the knee rather than the hip, and I was taught to use it from a unicorn step for easy retreating, and pressing.