Meridian striking and recovery

[Crushing Step]

This thread is somewhat related to my research of internal martial arts.

As a disclaimer, I don't believe in chi as a magical force, and I acknowledge that a lot of demonstrations are trickery. I just watched the national geographic special on "testing qigong" and it was an obvious fraud. A Shaolin monk's assistant struck his abdomen using a physics sensor bat, while the monk employed iron shirt qigong. The assistant not only struck the monk at far less than the force he did a crash test dummy, but in slow motion he very obviously "pulled" his strike.

On to the meridian, pressure point, and "dim mak" striking. I have experienced meridian striking against myself firsthand, as a skeptic. I would swear that a strike on the right side of my body cause pain inside my body on the left. Magic aside, we might try to explain this with nerves that carry an electric pulse from point A to point B.

OK, so let's say there is something to this. And let's say that a practicioner looks at one of the many availbe meridian diagrams, and decides to pressure point strike his buddy to see what happens. According to kung fu folklore, these could cause disruptions in the internal organs. Further according to the same stories, a properly trained master could massage certain pressure points to prevent long term damage and help the person recover.

I would love to hear from someone who practices such techniques. At one time I thought I would buy Erle Montaigue's book "Encyclopedia of Dim Mak" so that I might get a good study of the meridians. Then I watched his tai chi videos, and I hate to talk bad about someone who as passed, but he did not instill in me a sense of confidence.

So do you believe that a properly aligned and placed strike will be more effective for hitting a dim mak point? If so, what has your practical experience been? What do you say of the supposed TCM medical oversight required to recover from such strikes?

[Bacon]

I'm with you in the same side of the "not believing in chi" thing.

Having learned a fair amount about both "ten d3adly dim mak" and pressure point/nerve striking I can say that they're just points of vulnerability on the body. Some if you strike hard enough can cause death.
The ones which are not quite so serious are generally nerves, blood vessels close to the surface etc. For recovery the massage is mainly just about bringing blood to these areas so they can recover, depending on the amount of damage and if hemorrhaging is occurring.

The prevention of long term damage is pretty much a crock. Either it's an area which adapts on its own based on repeated exposure to pressure and pain such as a nerve, or you're going to have long term damage, or both.

[mawali]

We strike meridians all day and there is nothing to recover!

That being said, hitting certain area with 'pressure' of x pounds per sq in. can incapacitate as evidenced by 'old school' Okinawan karate <Kyusho>. ALlso, one periodically hears about kids getting hit by baseballs and many of the injureis from incapacitation to sometimes death, isn't mystical.

[pateticorecords]

This thread is somewhat related to my research of internal martial arts.

As a disclaimer, I don't believe in chi as a magical force, and I acknowledge that a lot of demonstrations are trickery. I just watched the national geographic special on "testing qigong" and it was an obvious fraud. A Shaolin monk's assistant struck his abdomen using a physics sensor bat, while the monk employed iron shirt qigong. The assistant not only struck the monk at far less than the force he did a crash test dummy, but in slow motion he very obviously "pulled" his strike.

On to the meridian, pressure point, and "dim mak" striking. I have experienced meridian striking against myself firsthand, as a skeptic. I would swear that a strike on the right side of my body cause pain inside my body on the left. Magic aside, we might try to explain this with nerves that carry an electric pulse from point A to point B.

OK, so let's say there is something to this. And let's say that a practicioner looks at one of the many availbe meridian diagrams, and decides to pressure point strike his buddy to see what happens. According to kung fu folklore, these could cause disruptions in the internal organs. Further according to the same stories, a properly trained master could massage certain pressure points to prevent long term damage and help the person recover.

I would love to hear from someone who practices such techniques. At one time I thought I would buy Erle Montaigue's book "Encyclopedia of Dim Mak" so that I might get a good study of the meridians. Then I watched his tai chi videos, and I hate to talk bad about someone who as passed, but he did not instill in me a sense of confidence.

So do you believe that a properly aligned and placed strike will be more effective for hitting a dim mak point? If so, what has your practical experience been? What do you say of the supposed TCM medical oversight required to recover from such strikes?

I don't believe in magic. All Kung Fu traditions are surrounded by truth and legend, taking all the stories or "histories" too literally won't benefit your understanding of the fundamentals behind the true nature of what was taught or what you can learn.
Though the meridians and their striking points are shrouded in mysticism and mystery the practice is no different than learning acupressure, acupuncture, and massage therapy. The principles are the same the applications very different.
Though science has not been able to fully explain what happens physiologically... there is something there.
If you study the nervous system along side the meridians you will notice some similarities as well.
As far as striking an area and the person dying 3 days later, etc... think about the times when the stories originated. 2 people fight, one uses his knowledge of nerve/pressure point striking to strike the spleen, the spleen slightly ruptures... the fight ends both fighters go their separate paths and 3 days later the fighter struck on the spleen dies... the story gets out and within a few days the story changes to: 2 fighters battle it out, one does dim mak 3 day strike, fighter dies 3 days later;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hitting people in the right place is much better than hitting them in the wrong place.
It really is just that simple.
Science has been able to explain every single REPEATABLE effect of REAL "meridian striking", at least the points that work on everyone.
One thing that needs to be remembered is that not ALL the points are striking points (bare handed),
Also, every striking MA has "vital points" in their training, actually EVERY MA has them.

[Crushing Step]

I'm with you guys all the way so far. Agreed that the pressure points coincide with nerves, agree that correct application of martial forms should also coincide.

So then, how do you practice? If two people were in practice, and person A hit person B in one of those "dim mak" points that connect the skin surface to an internal organ, how do you prevent damage?

I remember being a skeptic. I was hit in three pressure points in a row, and at the third hit my leg gave out from under me. I wasn't even told what effect was going to happen so I am certain it was not a suggestion. But as in my first post, students are warned not to practice hitting each others in these areas unless you know how to counteract the effects as well.

I'm in the camp of "there has to be something to it, but don't know what."

[Empty_Cup]

...

So then, how do you practice? ...

Could always practice on monkeys. Just know that PETA will be out for your head.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You practice by fighting since, obviously, when you used them you will be doing just that, fighting.

[scholar]

The ancient Roman gladiators used to eat barley and beans every day to develop a uniform layer of subcutaneous fat on their bodies that would protect them from impacts on some of their more vulnerable areas. This tells me that in some respects varieties of this idea were common in the old days. My Chinese (actually, Manchu) teachers told me that qi just meant breath, and to theorize beyond that was painting legs on a snake. If you can breathe well you have good stamina and your metabolism will generate lots of heat. If you are out of breath or cold all the time your qi is weak. It is the shysters that turn simple breathing mechanics into comic book stuff.

[taai gihk yahn]

I
Though science has not been able to fully explain what happens physiologically... there is something there.

actually, it pretty much has; it's just that typically people who claim it hasn't just aren't aware of it...

[taai gihk yahn]

My Chinese (actually, Manchu) teachers told me that qi just meant breath, and to theorize beyond that was painting legs on a snake. If you can breathe well you have good stamina and your metabolism will generate lots of heat. If you are out of breath or cold all the time your qi is weak. It is the shysters that turn simple breathing mechanics into comic book stuff.

this


x 1000...

[scholar]

Instead of barley and beans I use beer and Mexican food!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Instead of barley and beans I use beer and Mexican food!

I like the way you think !

[Lee Chiang Po]

I'm with you guys all the way so far. Agreed that the pressure points coincide with nerves, agree that correct application of martial forms should also coincide.

So then, how do you practice? If two people were in practice, and person A hit person B in one of those "dim mak" points that connect the skin surface to an internal organ, how do you prevent damage?

I remember being a skeptic. I was hit in three pressure points in a row, and at the third hit my leg gave out from under me. I wasn't even told what effect was going to happen so I am certain it was not a suggestion. But as in my first post, students are warned not to practice hitting each others in these areas unless you know how to counteract the effects as well.

I'm in the camp of "there has to be something to it, but don't know what."

There are different kinds of strikes and effects. If you can disrupt a large vessel or artery you will also disrupt the electrical flow. Organs are hard to disrupt as most of them are fed from the large, deep vains like the aorta. Shock waves from striking will cause extreme kidney pain, heart flutter or fribulation, and it can paralyze the diaphram. In most cases the pain goes away and the flow will continue, but certain organs can sustain perminent injury, such as a kidney, spleen, and the liver. A fairly slight blow, chop or palm strike or even the fist, in a slight downward direction just above the pelvic bridge will cause a paralyzing pain. It feels much like you are having the rectum pulled out with a big fish hook.
There is no recovery from an injured organ so you might consider staying off of them in practice. That is exactly what the dummy is for. The Mooky Man.

[mawali]

This thread is somewhat related to my research of internal martial arts.

As a disclaimer, I don't believe in chi as a magical force, and I acknowledge that a lot of demonstrations are trickery. I just watched the national geographic special on "testing qigong" and it was an obvious fraud. A Shaolin monk's assistant struck his abdomen using a physics sensor bat, while the monk employed iron shirt qigong. The assistant not only struck the monk at far less than the force he did a crash test dummy, but in slow motion he very obviously "pulled" his strike.

So do you believe that a properly aligned and placed strike will be more effective for hitting a dim mak point? If so, what has your practical experience been? What do you say of the supposed TCM medical oversight required to recover from such strikes?

This has little to do with what is called internal martial arts! Okinawan karate has a tradition of hitting target areas that causes the person to "drop out" as it were.
One needs to have a 'strong punch (hit/block) and the hit has to be in an area that blocks 'nerve transmission', where degree of strike/hit (pounds per square inch) disables the nerve trnasit area to cause 'knockout'. There are even resuscitation techniques to bring the person back! It isn't mystical and is usually taught to "advanced' students by virtue of training, form (kata) and sibsequent x step sparing/kumite.

[Tame The Tiger]

Fakery, fraud and just pure ignorance exist in the martial arts world - past and present.

On the other hand, hard working, practical and intelligent practitioners have built up a body of knowledge over thousands of years. It's not wise to conclusively discount it merely because there's no obvious proof.

There was a time when there was no proof that the world was round, that it orbited the sun or that nicotine caused cancer......

[Crushing Step]

Yeah it's so funny that you can still find people talking about the different cycles of chi flowing through the body, etc... But if chi is an ancient way of describing actual scientific facts, then there is a connection. Like striking point so and so because it causes pain due to nerves being there is a scientific explanation that trumps over "disruption of chi".

The internal organ damage some people still say with so much confidence, but I doubt the scientific approach to this. For example if hitting meridian point so and so is supposed to damage the gall bladder, well who tested this theory? Did someone hit point so and so, and then perform a cat scan or MRI of the victim? Since it came from historic China, I would say no.

But that actual connection does still leave me curious. If hitting a point causes a reaction due to nerves, or due to a pressure surge in arteries, is there any credit to the recovery of said damage?

Leaning ever more towards the total bunk of it all. Hoping for scientific evidence for or against.

[David Jamieson]

The ancient Roman gladiators used to eat barley and beans every day to develop a uniform layer of subcutaneous fat on their bodies that would protect them from impacts on some of their more vulnerable areas. This tells me that in some respects varieties of this idea were common in the old days. My Chinese (actually, Manchu) teachers told me that qi just meant breath, and to theorize beyond that was painting legs on a snake. If you can breathe well you have good stamina and your metabolism will generate lots of heat. If you are out of breath or cold all the time your qi is weak. It is the shysters that turn simple breathing mechanics into comic book stuff.

YOU!!!!

I like you.

You know stuff.

:p

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yeah it's so funny that you can still find people talking about the different cycles of chi flowing through the body, etc... But if chi is an ancient way of describing actual scientific facts, then there is a connection. Like striking point so and so because it causes pain due to nerves being there is a scientific explanation that trumps over "disruption of chi".

The internal organ damage some people still say with so much confidence, but I doubt the scientific approach to this. For example if hitting meridian point so and so is supposed to damage the gall bladder, well who tested this theory? Did someone hit point so and so, and then perform a cat scan or MRI of the victim? Since it came from historic China, I would say no.

But that actual connection does still leave me curious. If hitting a point causes a reaction due to nerves, or due to a pressure surge in arteries, is there any credit to the recovery of said damage?

Leaning ever more towards the total bunk of it all. Hoping for scientific evidence for or against.

In jiujitsu we have a technique that is probably widely known. If you take a kick or punch in the Jewels , rising up on the toes or ball of the foot and suddenly dropping hard to the heel will make them come back down and relieve the pain. If the injured is not able to do that, simply striking the bottoms of his feet with a strong palm blow will do the same. You are dealing with ancient culture compared to modern medicine here. If you get shot in the middle and you are bleeding out, a western doc would say, he got shot and is bleeding out. A chinese doc might say, he got shot and it has disrupted his flow and his chi is leaking out. there is always a medical or scientific reason for anything that happens. Our nerve centers fire some sort of neurons to make the body work, and a great number of these follow the flow of our blood. It is not majic being able to disrupt the flow by striking along this blood flow. Making an artery or large vain swell to seriously restrict the blood flow will also cause a disruption in the flow of neurons. I am sure there are others here that know more about that stuff without knit picking. But that is how it happens.
I had an old friend named Reginald Fung that could just slightly poke you in the front of your shoulder joint and the arm would drop to the side and you could not move it for upward of 5 minutes. He could do one and as you turned away slightly he would do the other. You would be completely helpless in that time.