what do you think?

[Hendrik]

What do you think of these?

[Bacon]

I think you're an idiot. We practice fighting systems, not construction equipment and as analogies for anything those are so oversimplified as to be useless.

[GlennR]

I think no one is really interested in what you put forward anymore.

Why do you think that is?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I really should not say anything but:

I thought a certain someone said they were done with this forum ;)

Sorry, just unable to resist. :D

[JPinAZ]

I don't think of these 3 things at all, and trying to sum up WC with a picture of a spring is one of the most idiotic things I've seen from this clown.

haha, yeah Dave, I remember the same. I guess he wasn't getting the attention he thought he would over on facebook/youtube, so he's come crawling back for more punishment and ridicule I guess.

[kentchang]

I think that's the shoddiest presentation I've ever seen.:p

[Happy Tiger]

O.K.,o.k. I think I've got it!! Southern Fist go >whammo!!<, CLF go >tic tok tic tok< and VT go >boing oing oing!< Am I right?... Did I figure it out? :)

[TenTigers]

I think you should have one that says Hung-Gar, showing all of the above!:D

[TenTigers]

Besides...aren't they ALL Southern Fist???

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you should have one that says Hung-Gar, showing all of the above!:D

Zing !!


TenTigers Besides...aren't they ALL Southern Fist???

Zing to the power of 2

[Yoshiyahu]

Certain lineages of Wing Chun as attributes of swinging and hammer motions Henrix...especially in various forms. One attribute of the hammer is bil gee with dropping elbows in YKS...an in Bil Gee the pull and turning hooks are swinging motions...

But i also get what your saying...Basically Choy Li Fut engine is swinging motions from the outside to inside...I get that


Your saying that hammer fist is bashing motion....

an your saying wing chun uses springy energy...but wc is more akin to drilling motion if you asked me...but i know a drill is not simple tool like the hammer...


With either case some one mention Hung Gar...Well in short hung gar and other arts have both swinging motions like teeter ball..As well as hammer fist motions...Which for instensive purpose is operating at the same engine of swinging motion just downward!

Wing Chun swinging motions are mostly found with in the WC elbows...Horizontal Inside, Horizontal Outside, diaganoal, and rising elbow in addition to that the dropping side scraping elbow.

[TenTigers]

I believe what Hendrick meant by the ball on the string was how CLF uses its energy-a steel ball on the end of a rope or chain, the waist is supple, shoulders loose and the power is relaxed, yet powerful-at least that's the analogy I use when teaching these strikes. I also use the Tibetan Prayer Wheel as an example.
The hammer illustrates the hard, solid smashing that apparently some feel is all we do in Hung-Gar. That is only one small part of our system.
Or bridge isn't simply hard and doesn't simply smash.
Read articles on Sup Yee Kiu Sao, Five Animals, and Five Elements for a little more understanding of Hung-Gar's energies..

[Vajramusti]

Besides...aren't they ALL Southern Fist???
----------------------------------------------

Yes- but the differences between them are huge IMO

[Wayfaring]

What do you think of these?

Talking with Hendrik about WCK will lead you on a circular path winding around and around and leaving you very close to where you started?

[Hendrik]

I believe what Hendrick meant by the ball on the string was how CLF uses its energy-a steel ball on the end of a rope or chain, the waist is supple, shoulders loose and the power is relaxed, yet powerful-at least that's the analogy I use when teaching these strikes. I also use the Tibetan Prayer Wheel as an example.
The hammer illustrates the hard, solid smashing that apparently some feel is all we do in Hung-Gar. That is only one small part of our system.
Or bridge isn't simply hard and doesn't simply smash.
Read articles on Sup Yee Kiu Sao, Five Animals, and Five Elements for a little more understanding of Hung-Gar's energies..


You are correct on the ball . As for the hammer , it is a muscular dominant deal mostly. Spring type is using the action and reaction force vector. Different type of platform for different type of art. Hung far can have different kiu sau but the engine is not spring type neither the iron wire.

It is comment to default to hammer type.
As the wcner is default to hammer type chain sun punch.

[Hendrik]

Certain lineages of Wing Chun as attributes of swinging and hammer motions Henrix...especially in various forms. One attribute of the hammer is bil gee with dropping elbows in YKS...an in Bil Gee the pull and turning hooks are swinging motions...

But i also get what your saying...Basically Choy Li Fut engine is swinging motions from the outside to inside...I get that


Your saying that hammer fist is bashing motion....

an your saying wing chun uses springy energy...but wc is more akin to drilling motion if you asked me...but i know a drill is not simple tool like the hammer...


With either case some one mention Hung Gar...Well in short hung gar and other arts have both swinging motions like teeter ball..As well as hammer fist motions...Which for instensive purpose is operating at the same engine of swinging motion just downward!

Wing Chun swinging motions are mostly found with in the WC elbows...Horizontal Inside, Horizontal Outside, diaganoal, and rising elbow in addition to that the dropping side scraping elbow.


IMHO, WCK doesn't do hammer type especially in biu jee set because hammer needs space and time, while biu jee set is for emergentcy while there is no time and space to spare. The short Jin must be available otherwise it is too late. Hammer and swing iron ball type needs some space and time, that is their physical characteristics. Yks WCK in the past in known for its massaging dummy or mo Jong woodern dummy practice . Thus, it cannot be hammer type.

Start 6.00, that is the truth in ancient WCK and yks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA5Q4AWeVU


If the body never is developed in the spring way, one default to hammer type. That is a reality. And the hammer and iron ball and string way is the body type power generation while the spring is the force line type. I don't invent these since you are a yks, the above clip from yks tell you the story of yks.

[Vajramusti]

IMHO, WCK doesn't do hammer type especially in biu jee set because hammer needs space and time, while biu jee set is for emergentcy while there is no time and space to spare. The short Jin must be available otherwise it is too late. Hammer and swing iron ball type needs some space and time, that is their physical characteristics. Yks WCK in the past in known for its massaging dummy or mo Jong woodern dummy practice . Thus, it cannot be hammer type.

Start 6.00, that is the truth in ancient WCK and yks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA5Q4AWeVU


If the body never is developed in the spring way, one default to hammer type. That is a reality. And the hammer and iron ball and string way is the body type power generation while the spring is the force line type. I don't invent these since you are a yks, the above clip from yks tell you the story of yks.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- some good points on short power but otherwise much un- helpful over simplification. Ip Man's biu jee has many kinds of power- some short jing and some different like fak sao. and some regaining the line motions,That video on "what your GM did not tell you"is a
self serving Sum Nun un-helpful slam against Ip Man. There is more to wing chun than Sum Nun and/or your yik kam system.It's a bigger boat than you suggest.Plus there is much more to jong work besides massaging it.

[Hendrik]

------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- some good points on short power but otherwise much un- helpful over simplification. Ip Man's biu jee has many kinds of power- some short jing and some different like fak sao. and some regaining the line motions,That video on "what your GM did not tell you"is a
self serving Sum Nun un-helpful slam against Ip Man. There is more to wing chun than Sum Nun and/or your yik kam system.It's a bigger boat than you suggest.Plus there is much more to jong work besides massaging it.

Joy,

WCK is WCK. It is as it is.

Everyone can evolve his WCK as Ipman and lots of yks or yik kam lineage have done so. However, is that still WCK? Or how much of it is WCK? What is the trade off?

We needs to take information as information instead of taking everything as slamming. WCK doesn't come out of thin air and ignoring the past practice is blinding oneself. IMHO.

[imperialtaichi]

Joy,

WCK is WCK. It is as it is.

Everyone can evolve his WCK as Ipman and lots of yks or yik kam lineage have done so. However, is that still WCK? Or how much of it is WCK? What is the trade off?

We needs to take information as information instead of taking everything as slamming. WCK doesn't come out of thin air and ignoring the past practice is blinding oneself. IMHO.

Taking one person's view as gospel while ignoring other people's opinions? The world is bigger than this.

[Hendrik]

Taking one person's view as gospel while ignoring other people's opinions? The world is bigger than this.


I lay my case , if you ask Sifu Sergio who visiting and interview WCK lineages all over in China, he will tell you the guy in the clip is honest.

As for the spring body, all the older WCK lineages are pointing to that direction. that is also an explanation of how WCK can applied close body range and force comes from ground via the six bows.

unless one has a good explanation of the different and solid evident of the past. what exist is an evident of existance in the past. and the solution for force comes from ground as it is in ancient WCK.

[Hendrik]

as simple as it sounds or as over simplify as it looks, the dominant factor is the coil spring body of WCK. without that develop in the SLT SNT set. one will default into hammer type. The clue is when stance is making bigger or tense or root to support the upper body. or using different static structure to bolt down the stance.

A spring doesnt need a bigger stance, grip, or tense rooting or bold down to support the upper body. that is because it plays with the six joints or bows and that is the way how force comes up from ground. the whole body is one piece with six joints or six bows link together.

as, bigger stance, grip, or tense rooting support the body support the weight that is not force comes up from ground as the old WCK saying. So, unless it is spring body, there is no alternative view in the field. I certainly love and open to different view. and always keep myself open.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1192425]Joy,

WCK is WCK. It is as it is.

((What does that mean exactly Hendrik?))Joy


We needs to take information as information instead of taking everything as slamming. WCK doesn't come out of thin air and ignoring the past practice is blinding oneself. IMHO.

((What information? A spring and a Sum Nun related video which gies on and on))joy

as simple as it sounds or as over simplify as it looks, the dominant factor is the coil spring body of WCK. without that develop in the SLT SNT set. one will default into hammer type. The clue is when stance is making bigger or tense or root to support the upper body. or using different static structure to bolt down the stance.

((the devil is in the details. Oversimplified images of hammer and spring does not do it))joy

A spring doesnt need a bigger stance, grip, or tense rooting or bold down to support the upper body. that is because it plays with the six joints or bows and that is the way how force comes up from ground. the whole body is one piece with six joints or six bows link together.

((Sure- all the joints should be aligned properly. Pretty obvious. In part preaching to the choir))Joy

[Hendrik]

WCK is WCK. It is as it is.

((What does that mean exactly Hendrik?))Joy


it means WCK is as it is. we can evolve it but what it is once upon a time is as it is.







We needs to take information as information instead of taking everything as slamming. WCK doesn't come out of thin air and ignoring the past practice is blinding oneself. IMHO.

((What information? A spring and a Sum Nun related video which gies on and on))joy


this is an information era, one can now take a look at Sergio interview in the youtube to see different lineages and compare.






as simple as it sounds or as over simplify as it looks, the dominant factor is the coil spring body of WCK. without that develop in the SLT SNT set. one will default into hammer type. The clue is when stance is making bigger or tense or root to support the upper body. or using different static structure to bolt down the stance.

((the devil is in the details. Oversimplified images of hammer and spring does not do it))joy


I disagree. it has to be real simple, otherwise, no one can applied it in real life. in fact, go to any CLF old master, and ask them if that iron ball and string describe their power? you might suppries on their answer.

as for spring,
The following is Spring but describe in the old chinese way from Ipman lineage. I dont use willow because spring explain the action / reaction force and force flow mechanics better.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.TheWayOfTheWillowByDonaldMak





A spring doesnt need a bigger stance, grip, or tense rooting or bold down to support the upper body. that is because it plays with the six joints or bows and that is the way how force comes up from ground. the whole body is one piece with six joints or six bows link together.

((Sure- all the joints should be aligned properly. Pretty obvious. In part preaching to the choir))Joy[/QUOTE]


aligned properly doesnt really say anything. IMHO. the iron ball and spring, the hammer, all aligned their joints properly too. but in a different way.

the iron ball is using the momentum to power. the hammer is using the heavy muscle to power. the spring is using the action / reaction play to power. all of these are different. IMHO.

[Hendrik]

one cannot avoid Spring or Willow or anyone wants to call it, because Chi Sau is a way to develop that in additional to the sets.

[imperialtaichi]

I prefer Windows 7 to Windows 3.1

Good Wing Chun is one that's practical, not the one that's old. Everyone has an opinion, it's the person still standing that counts.

[imperialtaichi]

Btw, if you know how to use a hammer properly, how much muscles do you need to hammer a nail into a tree? How much muscles do you need to break a rib?

[GlennR]

Btw, if you know how to use a hammer properly, how much muscles do you need to hammer a nail into a tree? How much muscles do you need to break a rib?

Exactly John, a proper tradesman does not use brute strength but technique to use a hammer. As usual, as Hendrick can't look past his own perceptions he misses reality.

[Hendrik]

I prefer Windows 7 to Windows 3.1

Good Wing Chun is one that's practical, not the one that's old. Everyone has an opinion, it's the person still standing that counts.

Every one is free to choose what they like.

However, the story of WCK, as we can see with evidence from yks to ip man lineage And other older lineages, spring or willow is the characteristics of the WCK platform.

Spring is independent of practical or old, it is how WCK works.

[Hendrik]

Btw, if you know how to use a hammer properly, how much muscles do you need to hammer a nail into a tree? How much muscles do you need to break a rib?

there are experts in iron ball and string or hammer art who is very good at it.

The question is how to generate and handling force at the contact point without a space or gap needed as in hammer as in chi sau of WCK.

[Frost]

there are experts in iron ball and string or hammer art who is very good at it.

The question is how to generate and handling force at the contact point without a space or gap needed as in hammer as in chi sau of WCK.

Both hung gar and CLF can generate short range power, and other arts it could be argued generate much more short range power than wing chun, bakmei and southern mantis for example

You generalise without any real experience in the arts you put down, and you can’t demonstrate anything you talk about in a real environment so it’s all theory and ill informed theory at that

[desertwingchun2]

Exactly John, a proper tradesman does not use brute strength but technique to use a hammer. As usual, as Hendrick can't look past his own perceptions he misses reality.

Old a55 Jimmy Carter can drive a nail building houses for humanity. How much brute force does he use?

Hand1ck is up to his old dazzle them with BS again.

Go back to Youtube and FB. Nobody misses you here. It's pretty bad if the majority would have appreciated Terrence's return here before yours.

[Hendrik]

Both hung gar and CLF can generate short range power, and other arts it could be argued generate much more short range power than wing chun, bakmei and southern mantis for example

You generalise without any real experience in the arts you put down, and you can’t demonstrate anything you talk about in a real environment so it’s all theory and ill informed theory at that


The thread is focus on different body platforms of different arts or mechanics and chatacteristics of different styles.

The above evidence from yks video and article from Ipman lineage are evidence of the description of sprint body of WCK.

It is not a theory but practice of the past wing chuners from different wck lineages .


WCK is not bai mei, not CLF, not hung gar, not southern mantis. It is a different art play a different game.

[JPinAZ]

The thread is focus on different body platforms of different arts or mechanics and chatacteristics of different styles.

unless you have direct experience in all of these arts, you're just guessing - as usual. You can't even speak for your own lineage since you do not represent cho family, but now you speak for ALL these different styles as well?!? haha, you're so clueless balloon boy :rolleyes:


The above evidence from yks video and writing in lineage are evidence of the description of sprint body of WCK.

a picture of a spring and hammer along with a clip of a guy talking for 10 minutes isn't 'evidence'. The only thing they might be evidence of is how horrible of a researcher you are.
I've seen your videos, you ramble on for hours & I've seen you even punch balloons like a circus performer - if videos are 'evidence', the only thing they are evidence of is that you have no idea what you're talking about.


It is not a theory but practice of the past wing chuners from different wck lineages .

You have to guess at what even your own own lineage did in the past, so how can you now speak for all these different lineages as well?? You can't

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

WCK is WCK. It is as it is.

Everyone can evolve his WCK as Ipman and lots of yks or yik kam lineage have done so. However, is that still WCK? Or how much of it is WCK? What is the trade off?

We needs to take information as information instead of taking everything as slamming. WCK doesn't come out of thin air and ignoring the past practice is blinding oneself. IMHO.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments and I am out of this thread which is likely to go pointlessly round and round.
1. WCK is WCK- is a meaningless non empirical tautology..not coming close to Getrude Stein's- a rose is a rose is a rose.
2. after an attempt at brevity- spring,swinging ball and hammer analogies- you have begun to go all
over the place..with your speculation on "original" wing chun, massaging the dummy etc.
3. With proper skill development- a hammer can be used effectively in small spaces-jewel cutters and silver smiths do that often.
4. There is a short power close quarters hammerfist that is developed in the chum kiu that I do.
5, good chor ma development can deliver short power in a more abbreviated form than that of the clf ball analogy.
6 the spring analogy is useful-but can do without convoluted explanations.
7 As alternative images I use neither a sledge hammer or jello.
8. I am not being personal btw.

[k gledhill]

I would add that, VT has weapons, they stab, chop, rotate.... a 9ft staff generates force to a small surface area than will terminate your plans for the rest of the day. Our body learns to create force similarly and to control its delivery, only with two arms in unison. We have finger tips, open hand strikes, fists, forearms, feet, shins, knees, hips, elbows, shoulders, body checks, head butts, biting, gouging...my point being, HOW do you take all that !!! and then show slinky resting :D

[Hendrik]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments and I am out of this thread which is likely to go pointlessly round and round.
1. WCK is WCK- is a meaningless non empirical tautology..not coming close to Getrude Stein's- a rose is a rose is a rose.
2. after an attempt at brevity- spring,swinging ball and hammer analogies- you have begun to go all
over the place..with your speculation on "original" wing chun, massaging the dummy etc.
3. With proper skill development- a hammer can be used effectively in small spaces-jewel cutters and silver smiths do that often.
4. There is a short power close quarters hammerfist that is developed in the chum kiu that I do.
5, good chor ma development can deliver short power in a more abbreviated form than that of the clf ball analogy.
6 the spring analogy is useful-but can do without convoluted explanations.
7 As alternative images I use neither a sledge hammer or jello.
8. I am not being personal btw.


Joy,

1. I have show the above Ipman linege article that spring is described , as it was called the way of willow. thus, it is across WCK lineage .

2. The iron ball and string is legitimate because the CLF is indeed called their power fei toh Jin . As describe by an iron ball and string.

3. Since the three sets , dummy, and chi sau is designed with spring body. One certainly can evolve their own practice otherwise with the consequence effect of the evolution.

4. Unless one get this basic identify one really cant progress further .

[Hendrik]

I would add that, VT has weapons, they stab, chop, rotate.... a 9ft staff generates force to a small surface area than will terminate your plans for the rest of the day. Our body learns to create force similarly and to control its delivery, only with two arms in unison. We have finger tips, open hand strikes, fists, forearms, feet, shins, knees, hips, elbows, shoulders, body checks, head butts, biting, gouging...my point being, HOW do you take all that !!! and then show slinky resting :D


So what do you do in your chi sau? Iron ball with string, hammer, or spring?

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

1. I have show the above Ipman linege article that spring is described , as it was called the way of willow. thus, it is across WCK lineage .

2. The iron ball and string is legitimate because the CLF is indeed called their power fei toh Jin . As describe by an iron ball and string.

3. Since the three sets , dummy, and chi sau is designed with spring body. One certainly can evolve their own practice otherwise with the consequence effect of the evolution.

4. Unless one get this basic identify one really cant progress further .
--------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- Donald Mak's essay is a good one - but then in a slippery way you say that the spring is a better analogy than the willow. Meanings fly all over the place.You can throw in- a springy fly wheel,
a bow, an arrow, an ice breaker- analogies can abound.To each his own.

[Hendrik]

--------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- Donald Mak's essay is a good one - but then in a slippery way you say that the spring is a better analogy than the willow. Meanings fly all over the place.You can throw in- a springy fly wheel,
a bow, an arrow, an ice breaker- analogies can abound.To each his own.



coil spring is better then willow to model the issue because.

1, human doenst have a root as willow.

2, one is manipulate action and reaction force via the contraction and expansion of the coil spring.

Thus, in order to implement in one's SLT or Chi Sau, coil spring is a good visualization tool to get a proper aligment. with the hand is one end of the coil spring and the sole is another end of the coil spring. any move in the hand will reflect in the sole. also an action force in the hand also reflect a reaction force in the sole.

While Willow analogy doesnt give that type of details. Thus, Coil Spring is a good first order model or visualization tool or in Chinese it refer to as Sum Faat or Heart Method to cultivate this type of body platform.

As for Willow, one cannot picture one as a willow , even if one picture one as a willow tree, one doesnt know what to do. as the coil spring model above shown.

[k gledhill]

So what do you do in your chi sau? Iron ball with string, hammer, or spring?

semi automatic magnum .45 ><.45 semi automatic magnum

[GlennR]

The thread is focus on different body platforms of different arts or mechanics and chatacteristics of different styles.

The above evidence from yks video and article from Ipman lineage are evidence of the description of sprint body of WCK.

It is not a theory but practice of the past wing chuners from different wck lineages .


WCK is not bai mei, not CLF, not hung gar, not southern mantis. It is a different art play a different game.

No, the thread is based on your opinion as usual, your crap video and even crapper picture are almost as bad as your non-evidence based verbal drivel.

Weren't you going for good last time?

[kentchang]

I lay my case , if you ask Sifu Sergio who visiting and interview WCK lineages all over in China, he will tell you the guy in the clip is honest. As for the spring body, all the older WCK lineages are pointing to that direction. that is also an explanation of how WCK can applied close body range and force comes from ground via the six bows. unless one has a good explanation of the different and solid evident of the past. what exist is an evident of existance in the past. and the solution for force comes from ground as it is in ancient WCK.

Sifu Sergio once said Ip Man wc came from Chi Sim weng chun and also said black flag hkb was the original wc along with red, black, yellow, white and green flags. Where were all these wc branches in chinese history and where are they now? Or, you will see and learn a different story from his latest videos. The last video he was talking about Vietnamese wc on his channel. Is Chi Sim weng chun the same as Ip Man wc in your research? You will be surprised to see "the coil spring body of WCK" all over Chi Sim weng chun. Is master Tio really a 18 lohan teacher or a wc teacher? Why so many different stories came from Sifu Sergio and your backyard? So...do you really think Sifu Sergio could back up your claim as well?

Sifu Sergio presents Vietnamese Wing Chun part 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm92rcFAbXQ&list=UURex0fFs_Ln2o769H3mFfZg&index=2&feature=plcp

[JPinAZ]

Spring, hammer, bow & arrow, willow trees, daisies, bunny rabbits, training videos of punching balloons & petting invisible dogs chi gung, etc... good lord - WHO CARES??
You can use any analogy you want, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't even fight.

So what do I think? I think this thread is really not about anything at all except Hendrik spouting off in circles about nothing in a desperate attempt to gain attention he wasn't getting on facebook/youtube when he left the last time. :rolleyes:

[desertwingchun2]

spring, hammer, bow & arrow, willow trees, daisies, bunny rabbits, training videos of punching balloons & petting invisible dogs chi gung, etc... Good lord - who cares??
You can use any analogy you want, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't even fight.

So what do i think? I think this thread is really not about anything at all except hendrik spouting off in circles about nothing in a desperate attempt to gain attention he wasn't getting on facebook/youtube when he left the last time. :rolleyes:

where is the like button!!

[JPinAZ]

where is the like button!!

On top of Hendrik's head - hit it as hard as you can with either a hammer or ball and chain for best effect :D