weight training for explosive power

[CanadianBadAss]

I plan to start training at my school gym. And was wondering If any one could tell me what sort of weight training builds up endurance, and what kind helps build up that explosive energy that we need in wing-chun?

Also, if any one knows of any specific training methods for building "explosive" power post that here too

Thanks

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[prana]

plyo

http://dharmatours.com/hbmc/Prwhbl1.gif

[Silumkid]

I know there are a few people who disagree with me on this, but I feel that explosive power is relative to maximal strength. Lift heavy! You can use heavy weights and use explosive lifts, just be aware that the weight won't really move all that fast and you do need to control the negative, I like to go at least twice as slow eccentric as I do concentric.

Plyometrics are darn good too. From what I have seen, many strength coaches usually don't consider plyometrics "safe" until you can squat (I think, this figure may be off) 2-2 1/2 times your body weight. So lift big and keep up with your motor skills and stretching.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[IronFist]

I would say big weights.

But you have to remember, there are a ton of other factors. If me and you can both 1RM bench 400lbs, but it takes me 5 seconds to put it up and you can do it in 2 seconds, you have more explosive power than me.

But if I could bench 400lbs, I wouldn't be complaining now matter how long it took me to put it up :)

Haha, actually, yes, I probably would ;)

Iron

[CanadianBadAss]

Thanks for the info Silumkid and IronFist, could you explain what plyometrics are?

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[prana]

Sudden lenghtening of muscular fibers by shock (or something). Basically, loading your muscles more than 1RM.

Like when you jump from a chair, to the ground and back up into a chair. Makes your muscular fibers learn to fire all fibers at the same time, for explosive power.

Though, strictly, I think if you are referring to Wing Chun, you are referring to "Kheng" which is in the tendons and cannot be trained by weights, it is a different concept. Talk to your sify perhaps ?

[Silumkid]

Prana has the right idea...it is indeed a loading of the muscle coupled with a sudden unloading, such as box jumps, jump squats, or "clap-ups". A "clap-up" is starting in push-up position, lowering yourself down to 'start' position, pressing up with enough force that you can clap your hands before catching yourself. Again, I prefer to control the negative portions (the lowering). The drawback to an exercise like this is that you need to use darn near perfect form (in my opinion).

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[ElPietro]

Well plyometrics are very hard on your joints in general and I'm sure if you did them as a regular routine you would suffer the wear and tear in the long run. Just lift weights...drop body fat and practice and you will be quicker. Want a quick punch or kick? Just practice with perfect form, slowly going faster each time and you will always progressively get a bit faster. I think this would be more advantageous from a technical point of view than plyos. If you do plyos I'd say cycle them maybe go 1 or 2 weeks of plyos every 3 months. Or maybe one day every couple weeks.

[Silumkid]

ElPietro,

Absolutely right....regular (but not TOO often) variations in training will (in my view) offer the most results. The human body was made to be challenged! :D

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[SanSoo Student]

To build explosiveness, I have used a method developed by my JKD friend; he fills a tin coffee can full of sand or steel shot and does close range wingchun 45 punches, he does this at a range of 1-3 inches away.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Iron fist you usually give such great advice but the bench for explosive power? Please.

CNDBA Do a search on plyometrics there is alot of advice on the net as well as excersises to be had.

You might want to look into Olymic Weight lifting. Clean Pulls and The snach are in my experience awsome for building explosiveness.

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

[ElPietro]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Iron fist you usually give such great advice but the bench for explosive power? Please. [/quote]

Wow that was a great response. I guess football players shouldn't do bench press then since it only contributes to almost 100% of their pushing power. It's pretty simple...muscle development, technique, and efficiency of movement are what can help you increase explosive power. When you punch you are pushing away from your body, which is with your chest and triceps. And now let's really try and think hard on what exercise works chest and triceps. Hmmm...well if you haven't figured it out...the answer is bench press.

But believe what you want...just do plyos only and you'll be crippled before the end of middle-age. What allows you to move with more power...muscle does...what will give you more power...more muscle...speed is gained through repetitive training.

[Anand Paul]

This is just an opinion, but, I think weights and gung fu do not go together. When you weight train you condition the tendons and muscle to do a single movement. Then when it comes to gung fu training, your body is still conditioned to your weights training and both will be in conflict. Wing Chun in itself has the trainings you require to develop the required explosive power.

[ElPietro]

There are two ways to look at something...scientifically speaking:
power=mass x speed or so I believe if i remember way back from highschool. :D

So if you increase your mass you are increasing your power...or if you increase your speed you are also increasing your power. Training in kung fu only forms etc is not going to give you good mass. You are training a different type of muscle fibre which is more endurance based. Muscle will not slow you down as it is muscle and the main component in moving your body parts around. It's all the excess flab that would slow you down. I wouldn't say they are conflicting as having more muscle is never a bad thing...the only thing that would perhaps conflict is time spent on each as you can't do both at the same time.

As far as the single movement goes...i'm not sure I exactly understand what you mean. If you look at a muscle it can only do two things...and that's contract or expand (flex or unflex) so movement isn't really an issue. If you work out and train your motor skills will still be well tuned to your kung fu. Most of what I say is scientific and factual I try not to impose ideas as fact so as far as movement goes other than being stiff from a tough workout I think there can only be benefits from weight training.

[Lost_Disciple]

There's a good article on Speed Cycling by Louie Simmons in Powerlifting USA. Someone else might be able to give good credentials for Louie Simmons, but in a nutshell he's a trainer at Westside Barbell, one of the best powerlifting gyms in the nation.

Basically the article discusses different phases of training to develop different ratios of strength, speed, and explosiveness.

To back up IronFist; in the article they talk about 4 methods for developing explosive strength in the bench press:
1. Dynamic Method 8 to 10 sets 3 reps 45~50% max weight Lower quick Explode up as quick as possible
2. Ballistic Benching 8 to 10 sets 3 reps 45-50% max Drop the bar quick, controlling with the lats not the arms Catch the bar 1 to 3 inches off the chest Put it up fast as possible.
3. Floor Press 8 to 10 sets 3 reps 45~50% shirtless max weight Lie on the floor in a squat rack Lower the pegs so they support the bar in a way that your triceps are on the floor and your arms are relaxed, gripping the bar Violently contract all the pressing muscles and drive the bar to completion This is similar to the box squat.
4. Weight Releasers Load the bar with 50% shirtless max Add weight releasers (chains) to the bar with the chain weight equalling 30% of max bench Lower the bar, loaded to 80% of your max bench Strip the chains at the bottom Press up the remaining 50% max weight as fast as possible

This is just the explosive part of the Bench Press section of the Speed Cycling program.

I know this argument's been played out before- whether or not weights build as much explosive power as plyos. I think what's going on here is pretty much "plyos with weights". I refuse to believe a guy like Ed Coan, who squats 964, doesn't have explosive power. Workouts like the one above add legitimacy to the argument that powerlifters seem to be incorporating the theory behind plyometrics into their weight training.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/4_3/images/gk1.jpg
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[IronFist]

Hey, I read an article a while ago, but I forgot where. I know someone here will know what I'm talking about, however, and be able to provide the source.

(really abbreviated version cuz I have midterms to study for...)

On Explosive power...

A study was conducted somewhere with two different groups of bench pressers. One group was trained normally. The other group was given specially designed equipment that would allow them to push the bar up as fast as possible. Now pay attention here. Usually, when you bench, as you near the top of the movement your muscles begin to compensate for the end of the movement. In otherwords, you're not pushing with as much force at the end of the movement because you don't want to slam your elbow joints when you lock out.

So, remember that group I mentioned with the special equipment? This equipment allowed them to push as fast and explosively as possible during their bench movement. Since there was no slowing or compensating at the end of the movement, their arms continued at top speed through the entire movement. The result? The bar would fly out of their hands, to be caught somehow by the special equipment (to protect the bench presser. Try this on a normal bench and the bar will come back down and crush you).

In the end, the people who were allowed to use the special equipment gained more on their bench.

I may have messed up something in my post here, I don't remember the exact specifics of the article, but this is the jist of it as I remember it.

Look like something can be said for explosive training, eh? Now if only my gym would purchase some of that special equipment :)

Iron

[baji-fist]

In Bajiquan, we develop our fa jing through the Xiao Baji training form. Xiao Baji consists of 24 postures and holding each of these psotures for about 8 breaths (about 1-2 minutes). In Baji, the legs is the source of the power and by developing strong legs. Along with this we practice singular strikes hundreds of times to develop the speed and muscles necessary for combat. For advance training the Da Qiang (Lance) training is necessary. The lance is 10-12feet long and is a pretty good weight. In Baji, we practice mostly thrusting actions with the lance and holding the posture at the completion of the thrust. Very challenging and I can assure practicing this will help to develop the explosive power you want.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Anand Paul]

What I ment to say is that all gung fu styles are intricatly made systems. The motions are designed to use bone, tendon and muscle as a single unit to attack and defend effectivly. The forms and drills help the practitioner to do this. When you weight train you are not really developing your body in the same way. Excessive weight training will give you what is called dead power, where your power is completly muscular because the practitioner has not developed the muscle, bone and tendon, or learnt to unite all three, which would other wise give rise to what is called internal power later on. I can understand if what is required is muscle mass, but weight training for explosive or dynamic power I belive is not possible. Further more when you weight train whilst practicing gung fu, you are disturbing the body development provided from you gung fu.

[Ford Prefect]

LD,

Louie Simmons is the man.

[turk]

I was body building before I started training kung fu, and I was 82 kg/ 160 lbs. I began kung fu training and figured I wasn't able to do any kicks or punches because the streching I did at the gym obviously was not good enough. I gave-up weight training and dropped dorn to 72 kg/140 lbs. and I had to do months of proper streching. Now, the kicks and jumps are higher and the punches are faster, and I sure can strech. Here is what I figured out, while wheight training you have no choice other than training (contracting) your opposite muscles if you are training your whole body. Therefore, for example, when you punch using your chest muscles, the back muscles can't strech enough for the speed and the power you need. So, now I think reps and form is the best way to develop speed & power if you are OK with giving up the body-builder look :-)

[ElPietro]

Turk when you first started kungfu you are using motions your body has never used before...therefore it's going to be tough no matter what. Then you got better at it...well you really think that's because you stopped working out? You may have gotten better faster if you continued working out...but you can't tell because you haven't tried. Muscles are muscles...there isn't any rocket science involved...the movements are difficult to do first off because your body's motor skills aren't used to the movement...has very little to do with muscle mass...and flexibility you gain through bodybuilding not the opposite. But if what you are doing now is making you happy than that's good enough.

[IronFist]

I agree with ElPietro. I doubt the reason you couldn't do MA movements was because you were a Bodybuilder.

Turk said:

Therefore, for example, when you punch using your chest muscles, the back muscles can't strech enough for the speed and the power you need.

I don't believe that, because a punch is a normal range of motion that almost anyone can do. If punching required some awkward stratch of the lats to do, then it might make sense, but there's no way someone's lats couldn't stretch enough for a punch.

Also, people who aren't bodybuilders who start MA can't do punches or kicks either at first :)

Welcome to KFO, turk.

Iron

[turk]

I have also been thinking of all these, too. As a matter of fact I am kind of thinking about getting back to weights a little. You know how it is when you stop doing it, your body still expects the routines. Anyways, I will probably try and see if how it works out for me eventually. Thanks for the welcome , glad to be here !!!

[Repulsive Monkey]

Obviously I take it that none of you are refering to Fa-Jing AKA "Explosive strength"? C'os if you are then weight training won't do a single thing with it. Fa Jing needs to be trained internally.