Longfist guys

[JamesC]

This has been bOthering me for a while.

Why is the power generation so much more apparent in other northern styles like bak sil lum? When you see a good bak sil lum guy do a set you can see the power. They look solid.

You see guys like dr yang's students performing sets and it is much less apparent. I'm wondering why. Is it because of a more internal focus? Are they attempting to use more fa jing? Is this some type of pollution from the communist influence?

Not saying their Kung fu is bad of course. I just notice a huge difference when comparing. Again, another way that bak sil lum seems to be more connected to songshan

[bawang]

do u mean the cripsy snappyness

give video example pls

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have not noticed that amongst Master Yang's students.

The ones that I have seen have demonstrated excellent power generation in their form practice. It is something that I expect to see with his students, much like a hallmark.

So yes, I would like to see video footage as well.


mickey

[ShaolinDan]

Don't really understand---I'm pretty sure Bak Si Lum is longfist. Tongbi is long fist, so is Songshan Shaolin (mostly)... Longfist is a big big family encompassing many Northern Styles... An example would be great, except I'm in China and won't be able to watch a youtube clip. :(

[Jimbo]

This has been bOthering me for a while.

Why is the power generation so much more apparent in other northern styles like bak sil lum? When you see a good bak sil lum guy do a set you can see the power. They look solid.

You see guys like dr yang's students performing sets and it is much less apparent. I'm wondering why. Is it because of a more internal focus? Are they attempting to use more fa jing? Is this some type of pollution from the communist influence?

Not saying their Kung fu is bad of course. I just notice a huge difference when comparing. Again, another way that bak sil lum seems to be more connected to songshan

I don't believe there could have been communist influence, since I believe Dr. Yang's Long Fist lineage was brought to Taiwan from China before the communist influences (meaning, modern standardized wushu).

As ShaolinDan already mentioned, Bak Siu Lum is Long Fist. Long Fist is an umbrella term for many northern systems. Taiji is a type of Long Fist.

In southern systems, CLF is often considered a type of 'southern long fist'.

[MasterKiller]

Northern Longfist is played loose and relaxed. As for power, Western boxers don't "snap" at the end of their shadowboxing techniques either.

[JamesC]

Fair enough. Not trying to start an argument or create drama. It's just a little hard to type well enough what I mean on this dang phone. I'll try to post some video comparisons later when I get a chance.

Obviously wasn't very articulate in my first post.

[JamesC]

I think you may have hit it on the head MK. It probably also has to do with the fact that I've had more exposure to longfist lineage of dr yang compared to bak sil lum.

Holy crap I hate this phone

[MasterKiller]

This is the worst LongFist performance I've ever seen. Comletely destroys the flavor and flow of the form and techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Compare that to the flow in this version. You can still see power, but it's not "snappy" (which, by the way, is horrible for your joints anyway):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

[mickey]

Greetings,

MasterKiller: That worst performance was done by one of Master Yang Jwing Ming's students. I like it.

There are many ways to play a form. Soft and flowing is only one way.

JamesC was talking about power in Shaolin Longfist. It is quite obvious that the performer has that.


mickey

[MasterKiller]

Greetings,

MasterKiller: That worst performance was done by one of Master Yang Jwing Ming's students. I like it.

There are many ways to play a form. Soft and flowing is only one way.

JamesC was talking about power in Shaolin Longfist. It is quite obvious that the performer has that.


mickey

I don't care whose student he was. It's a horrible expression of Northern principles.

Have you ever seen anyone EVER successfully punch with that much snappiness in a real fight?

Tsunamis don't impact like meteors, but they still f@ck sh1t up.

[mickey]

MasterKiller,

I understand what you are talking about. I have seen those who do the snappy stuff and they suck. What is being demonstrated there is entirely different. Fajing is different from snappiness.

mickey

[MasterKiller]

MasterKiller,

I understand what you are talking about. I have seen those who do the snappy stuff and they suck. What is being demonstrated there is entirely different. Fajing is different from snappiness.

mickey

Fa Jing comes from hip and body intergration into strikes. He is clearly just jerking wildly for performance effect.

[mickey]

Hi MasterKiller,

That is how they move, very strong and powerful.

YouKnowWho is the person you linked doing the form the way you appreciate. My feeling is that it is for purposes of documentation. Now if I had a choice to get beat up by someone who plays their form like Yang's student or the way you like, I would choose the latter. I know I would survive it.


mickey

[MasterKiller]

Hi MasterKiller,

That is how they move, very strong and powerful.

YouKnowWho is the person you linked doing the form the way you appreciate. My feeling is that it is for purposes of documentation. Now if I had a choice to get beat up by someone who plays their form like Yang's student or the way you like, I would choose the latter. I know I would survive it.


mickey

You would survive the first one, too, because that's not how proper power is generated. I doubt he would even move a heavy bag hitting like that. Seriously, if it worked, that's how REAL FIGHTERS would hit. But they don't. None of them. Not one.

Everyone has seen a high school fight where two kids punch each other 100 times but no one has a bloody nose. I suspect that's what a fight between two of Yang's students would resemble.

[MasterKiller]

Snappy Power =
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7D8EUz_b9Y

Not Snappy Power=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAW1jAIh6VM

[mickey]

Wait a minute. Foul! Foul!

We are talking about Long fist aren't we?

The link on snappy power was not snappy at all.

The second on is more in line with what i am talking about. Is it a good punching power? Yes. Can a practitioner get there by doing his practice in a graceful, flowing, way? NO!!!

Form practice, when done correctly, successfully integrates your auxiliary training. What you put into your practice is supposed to show there. Even the results of your chi practice can show there. Even your knowledge of real time fighting should show there. There is nothing wrong with playing your form in real time with speed and power. I have seen people play their forms with such aggression that I can hear their punches and kicks. By the way, they were wearing T shirts and shorts.

I see that this debate can continue to go on indefinitely. So let's agree to disagree. I am totally cool with your stance on this matter. It is not the first time I have encountered it.

It is interesting that JamesC disappeared on this. I guess he is working on Avatar 2. :)

We need eternal, heavenly, wisdom here. Where is CYMAC?

Peace to you both,

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

Let's look at how the 1st longfist generations did in Taiwan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWY4joNlUk&feature=relmfu

The 2nd longfist generations in Taiwan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

The 3rd longfist generation in Taiwan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

The 4th longfist generation in Taiwan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

The Shao Fu Yen form is 1/2 longfist and 1/2 praying mantis. It can be done by either the longfist way or the praying mantis way. If the 4th generation treats this form as a pure praying mantis form, link the end of the previous move to the beginning of the next move, their moves will have the snappiness effect as showing in the clip. IMO, the praying mantis snappiness should be a fast punch out and fast pull back. It should not be like Baji or white crane type of Fajin snappiness.

We can see the snappiness in Su Yu Cheng's praying mantis form. When you emphasize on "speed", you have to add fast punch with fast pull back snappiness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFMS4bjRk0

[mickey]

Hello YouKnowWho,

If you looked at the first post by JamesC he was talking about the lack of power generation displayed by Yang Jwing Ming's students. And when requested by bawang and myself to show footage, neglected to do so.

I am very aware that the energy expressed byYang Jwing Ming's Shaolin Long Fist differs from other lineages. I don't see it as a bad thing. If thee is any concern it is that the students' chi is strong enough to handle the energy expressed.

What are you bringing to the discussion with those links?


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

Those links just prove that by using the "pure" longfist approach, those snappiness should not be there.

- Longfist is like rifle.
- Praying mantis is like machine gun.
- Baji is like grenade.

They all have different flavor. Just because the longfist Fajin and speed are not noticeable compare to other systems, many longfist guys had cross trained praying mantis for speed, and Baji for Fajin.

Should we mix longfist, pray mantis, and Baji flavor together? To me it has no true meaning in combat or work on heavy bag.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The form linked by MasterKiller is influenced by the mantis style. Should it not have the mantis flavor? I do remember you writing that you like to perform you Long Fist forms with a baji flavor. What has changed since then?

I also remember you being supportive of Master Yang's innovations. What has happened since then?

If something advances the art and the abilities of its practitioners, where is the wrong? This is a component of how styles develop in the first place.

When I look at Master Yang's students, the rifle is there.


mickey

[SPJ]

long fist is huge family.

long fist could be defined as continuous fist like water or river running long.

long fist could also be defined as big opening and big closing. arms fully stretched.

Most evidently would be tong bei or pi gua.

in contrast, praying mantis has both long and short power and even hidden power.

short arm and leg movements

in contrast, ba ji is about body contact or kao.

springiness or bouncy are evident in all styles long or short.

We practice relaxation drills in all joints in Tong bei and pi gua.

so that we may produce springiness or bouncy from feet up all the way to the hand.

Muddle the discussions a bit.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

I'm just pointing out the possible reason why those 2 clips (same forms) had different flavors. There is no right or wrong there. Evolution is always a good thing.

I don't train form any more. When I work on my striking dummy or heavy bag, those flavor has little meaning one way or another.

[mickey]

YouKnowWho,

I was not knocking your performance.

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

I was not knocking your performance.

Don't worry. I know you are not. :D

I did that form in 1978 San Francisco Kung Fu Exhibition.

http://imageshack.us/a/img847/6121/kungfudemo.jpg

Since Brendan Lai looked at that form from the praying mantis point of view, he said I was not fast enough. Since then I had added more praying mantis flavor into it. Later on I also added some Baji flavor into it until oneday I totally gave up my form training.

[bawang]

We can see the snappiness in Su Yu Cheng's praying mantis form. When you emphasize on "speed", you have to add fast punch with fast pull back snappiness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFMS4bjRk0

snappy punches is extremely unrealistic. first you hold back your power to make the snappy effect. the force is not transfered to a target, its back up your arms.

secondly you leave your arms out extended to make that shaky effect so you cant pull back your arms to a guard.

the snappy effect is for looking good and performance. thats why its so common in modern wushu, and you always wear pajamas so the sleeves will vibrate.


snappy punches can also be caused by lack of punching real objects and lack of sparring. when i dont punch bags for a long time, my punch gets snappy. i punch bags to correct it.







example of explosiveness without snappiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM

this style is related to bak sil lum

[YouKnowWho]

snappy punches is extremely unrealistic.

You can use a slap at your opponent's eyes to set up a lot of your favor "finish moves".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3i_nkGyOmo

Both "groin kick" and "eyes slap" don't need much force but speed. As long as your opponent will respond to it (99% of the time, your opponent will), that's all you need.

[JamesC]

Lol wow. Guess I'm not allowed to sleep...

Mickey, I didn't fail to post clips. I was at work until 8 this morning. I just woke up god's sake. I'll try tk get to a real computer today and watch the vids

[bawang]

You can use a slap at your opponent's eyes to set up a lot of your favor "finish moves".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3i_nkGyOmo

Both "groin kick" and "eyes slap" don't need much force but speed. As long as your opponent will respond to it (99% of the time, your opponent will), that's all you need.

we are not wing chun h0m0sexuals. we dont need this.

long fist is the epitomy of manliness and trength.

[YouKnowWho]

we are not wing chun h0m0sexuals. we dont need this.

long fist is the epitomy of manliness and trength.

The faster that you slap at your opponent's eyes, the faster that your opponent will try to block it. The faster that you pull your hand back, the faster that you can strike back with the real powerful punch again.

Why do you want to use 2 steps punches? The reason is simple. 99% of the time, your 1st punch will fail. Why do you want to commit your 1st punch if you know it will fail anyway?

When you use your hand to touch your girl's boob, 99% of the time she will push your hand away. If you move your hand to her groin area, when she move her hand to stop your groin touching hand, her boobs will be exposed to your 2nd hand attack. All my life, I had applied this strategy on my girls. It never failed me.

[bawang]

The faster that you slap at your opponent's eyes, the faster that your opponent will try to block it. The faster that you pull your hand back, the faster that you can strike back with the real powerful punch again.

Why do you want to use 2 steps punches? The reason is simple. 99% of the time, your 1st punch will fail. Why do you want to commit your 1st punch if you know it will fail anyway?



resist, my brother. fight the wing chun demon within you.



When you use your hand to touch your girl's boob, 99% of the time she will push your hand away. If you move your hand to her groin area, when she move her hand to stop your groin touching hand, her boobs will be exposed to your 2nd hand attack.

thx for pro dating tips

[JamesC]

The comparison MK posted of John and one of yang's student will suffice.

Mickey I'm not interested in an Internet fight. I was merely asking a question from thr viewpoint of someone who had no training in Kung fu why there seems to be such a difference even in longfist styles. From thr eyes of the common viewer.

Also, jf you expect me to answer you within mi utes you'll be disappointed. I don't have Internet access except for on my phone.

[Sima Rong]

You can use a slap at your opponent's eyes to set up a lot of your favor "finish moves".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3i_nkGyOmo

Both "groin kick" and "eyes slap" don't need much force but speed. As long as your opponent will respond to it (99% of the time, your opponent will), that's all you need.

I've had to use this eye slap. Very fast and effective- you can do a couple in a row. I don't think it permanently damages people (unlike finger jabs etc), and like the groin kick is a good distraction and shock to apply other techniques. I think it's really useful with qin na.

[YouKnowWho]

the groin kick is a good distraction and shock to apply other techniques.
In one wrestling match,

- A used a groin kick,
- B moved his groin away,
- A dragged B down to the ground.
- B blamed on A by using illegal move in sport.
- A said, "I used a fake kick. You took it as a real kick. It was your fault and not mine."

How will you judge this if you are the referee for that "sport" wrestling match?

[bawang]

In one wrestling match,

- A used a groin kick,
- B moved his groin away,
- A dragged B down to the ground.
- B blamed on A by using illegal move in sport.
- A said, "I used a fake kick. You took it as a real kick. It was your fault and not mine."

How will you judge this if you are the referee for that "sport" wrestling match?

i will tie him with rope, make him kneel down, beat with stick 40 times. if he does not die, expel.

[Subitai]

I think it's kinda being "Too Picky" .... in reference to flavor and snappiness and all that jazz.

With the problems that the Wing Chun guys have arguing over every little detail.... In the end, is it really that big a deal???

The only thing that ultimately sums it up is when 2 dudes cross hands and then you see who's got the "Juice".

Other wise, as I get older I'm also allot more forgiving. In solo form fundamentals do matter from style to style but also it's the individuals ART Expression. Mabe a guy is sick of doing it a certain way for 10yrs and now he's playing with the energies differently. It doesn't take away from a guy or mean that he can't apply it if you happen to see him change his expression.

It's kinda like a singer who gets a hit song and for a while (on tour) everybody expects him to play the song just like on the radio. After awhile the artist get's sick of doing it that way and in a concert or open "Mic" nite...he'll bust out a totally new rendition.
Many will say...I didn't like that version, he still knows his song however.

[Sima Rong]

In one wrestling match,

- A used a groin kick,
- B moved his groin away,
- A dragged B down to the ground.
- B blamed on A by using illegal move in sport.
- A said, "I used a fake kick. You took it as a real kick. It was your fault and not mine."

How will you judge this if you are the referee for that "sport" wrestling match?

I wasn't talking about sport. But this is a real quandary, yes.
If the training was sport, and the rules stipulated that there was to be no use of stamps, shouts,etc, to distract the opponent, then maybe I'd disallow A's win. If I was the referee and thought that there was no way the fake kick was going to connect, I'd probably let A win. But if it looked like it would have connected if B didn't move out of the way, and looked to be a real technique, maybe I'd disqualify A if groin kicks were illegal. But then again, maybe they are only illegal techniques if they connect and the referee sees.

[MasterKiller]

I think it's kinda being "Too Picky" .... in reference to flavor and snappiness and all that jazz.

With the problems that the Wing Chun guys have arguing over every little detail.... In the end, is it really that big a deal???

The only thing that ultimately sums it up is when 2 dudes cross hands and then you see who's got the "Juice".

Other wise, as I get older I'm also allot more forgiving. In solo form fundamentals do matter from style to style but also it's the individuals ART Expression. Mabe a guy is sick of doing it a certain way for 10yrs and now he's playing with the energies differently. It doesn't take away from a guy or mean that he can't apply it if you happen to see him change his expression.

It's kinda like a singer who gets a hit song and for a while (on tour) everybody expects him to play the song just like on the radio. After awhile the artist get's sick of doing it that way and in a concert or open "Mic" nite...he'll bust out a totally new rendition.
Many will say...I didn't like that version, he still knows his song however.

I hear you, bro.

But one of these is gangsta, yet one is not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i-n_NhSHmI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZNFo5lL4iw

[Sima Rong]

The second one is so funny. Love it! :)

[YouKnowWho]

I wasn't talking about sport.

I just use that example to point out that even an experience TCMA guy won't be able to tell a fake groin kick from a real one.

[Sima Rong]

I just use that example to point out that even an experience TCMA guy won't be able to tell a fake groin kick from a real one.

Oh, OK. :D

[JamesC]

Think I unintentionally opened a can of worms here lol.

I wasn trying to be picky O. Because I am using my phone I don't really have the patience to write everything out. So it probably seems like I'm knocking dr yang and his students. Definitely not meaning to.

The whole thread was just an inquiry that I was hoping could be answered by a simple explanation. Like I said before, I'm not a trained CMArtist. I'm what most would call a MMA guy. I just have a lot of respect for the CMA.

The explanation that MK gave me pretty much summed it up. I think it was simply a matter of practicing differences that I've been exposed to. As I mentioned before my exposure to both is limited.

Hope that clears some stuff up.

[mickey]

Hi JamesC,

You had me puzzled with your first post because you chose Yang Jwing Ming's students. That was a mistake for sure. :)

Looking back, it seems that you like the power delivery of Bak Sil Lum. That is totally okay. If you plan to take that up, have fun.


mickey

[Jimbo]

Since Bak Siu Lum (Bei Shaolin) is northern Long Fist that was taught in the south, it's likely that at least some practitioners' power generation (form-wise) had some southern-style influence.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Jimbo
Since Bak Siu Lum (Bei Shaolin) is northern Long Fist that was taught in the south, it's likely that at least some practitioners' power generation (form-wise) had some southern-style influence.
If some of the BSL practitioners power generation had a southern-style influence then it was probably because they were the students of Choy Lay Fut master Tarm Sam who learned BSL from Kuo Yu Cheung. But honestly, I don't know what you mean by the power generation being southern. It seems to me that power is generated with Choy Lay Fut the same way it's generated with BSL, and Hung Gar uses the same stances as the Long Fist styles (especially the horse). From the foot to the fist, the principles are the same.

Also, it shouldn't take videos of BSL practitioners to show that a great deal of power can be generated with Bak Siu Lum.
http://www.buksing.com/history/ku_yu_cheung/k_y_c_3.html

[XinKuzi]

This is the worst LongFist performance I've ever seen. Comletely destroys the flavor and flow of the form and techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Compare that to the flow in this version. You can still see power, but it's not "snappy" (which, by the way, is horrible for your joints anyway):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

I agree - first video is pretty bad. His stances are weak. The way he's punching/kicking actually makes him slower. Not realistic and not real power.

The video of John Wang shows good mechanics and precision.