clip

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXEbFLUL5w&sns=em

Nice work Sean!

[Yoshiyahu]

i really enjoyed that video...good bridge work....

[JPinAZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXEbFLUL5w&sns=em

Nice work Sean!

UH OH, @1:57 I see him hitting a wall bag!! Some might call that iron palm, hope he got an ok from the board to do that ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Imagine how much better they would be if they did Iron Palm, Dim mak and qi gong !!

Sorry, couldn't resist !
:D

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXEbFLUL5w&sns=em

Nice work Sean!

Nice clip, immin Belgium right now, shame I can't drop in and say hi

[Bacon]

UH OH, @1:57 I see him hitting a wall bag!! Some might call that iron palm, hope he got an ok from the board to do that ;)

Hitting a wall bag isn't iron palm. It's just working penetration power. Mind you some of us have lots of that already.

[Sean66]

Thanks for posting the vid, Kev.

The goal of the video is just to show different aspects of training. It doesn't show everything, and shows more drills than anything else. But does show some of the basic grappling and ground fighting that we've also been working on (I guess that'll also burn my chances with the WSL association in Hong Kong)

I promise the next clip I put up will highlight sparring!

Hey GlennR, it would be great if you could swing by. I don't know where in Belgium you are, but Lille is right on the border about an hour away from Gent. If per chance you do get some free time your always welcome to drop in!

[Frost]

nice clip, would have liked to see more glove work and more contact to keep things honest but i liked it

nice to see some ground work although it looks like its just been introduced and the guys are still new at it

looks like everyone was having fun!

[GlennR]

Thanks for posting the vid, Kev.

The goal of the video is just to show different aspects of training. It doesn't show everything, and shows more drills than anything else. But does show some of the basic grappling and ground fighting that we've also been working on (I guess that'll also burn my chances with the WSL association in Hong Kong)

I promise the next clip I put up will highlight sparring!

Hey GlennR, it would be great if you could swing by. I don't know where in Belgium you are, but Lille is right on the border about an hour away from Gent. If per chance you do get some free time your always welcome to drop in!

Hi Sean
My gf comes from a town called diest an hour east from Brussels. I'm probably a bit pressed for time but there's a chance I'll be down that way next week. What days do you train?

[GlennR]

Sean,

Again, just to reiterate... It is perfectly fine for you to train grappling and ground fighting as long as you let the students understand that the WSLVT itself did not have any grappling and ground fighting.

Or iron palm for that matter!!

And don't mention death touches lol

[Sean66]

Hi Glenn,

We train Tuesday and Thursday nights starting at 20:00, Wednesday at 18:30 and 20:00, and on Saturday from 09:00 to 12:00. Drop on by if you can.
Here is a link to the associations site with the address and directions (but in French):
http://www.sixharmonies-lille.fr/cours-stages/cours/

[JPinAZ]

Sean,

Again, just to reiterate... It is perfectly fine for you to train grappling and ground fighting as long as you let the students understand that the WSLVT itself did not have any grappling and ground fighting.

Just curious, what does it matter what another man trains? I ask because it sounds like you are giving him 'permission' to train grappling..

[Sean66]

@JPinAZ
Yeah, I got that feeling as well. But it really doesn't matter because I have absolutely no interest in this WSL students association.

[Buddha_Fist]

Sean,

Good work!

Emil

[GlennR]

@JPinAZ
Yeah, I got that feeling as well. But it really doesn't matter because I have absolutely no interest in this WSL students association.

A voice of reason..... Bravo!

[GlennR]

Hi Glenn,

We train Tuesday and Thursday nights starting at 20:00, Wednesday at 18:30 and 20:00, and on Saturday from 09:00 to 12:00. Drop on by if you can.
Here is a link to the associations site with the address and directions (but in French):
http://www.sixharmonies-lille.fr/cours-stages/cours/

That's tough as I'm in the Ardennes Wednesday and Thursday. I'll see about Saturday. Thanks for the hospitality all the same Sean

[wkmark]

Just curious, what does it matter what another man trains? I ask because it sounds like you are giving him 'permission' to train grappling..

Actually it doesn't matter what another man trains. What we wanted to convey was what was on WSLVT's teaching curriculum. For example our PVT GROUP teaches VT and Kickboxing for fitness, but we separate the 2 for our students so they know that Kickboxing was not part of WSLVT. It's only fair to the students so they know what they are training.

[JPinAZ]

Actually it doesn't matter what another man trains. What we wanted to convey was what was on WSLVT's teaching curriculum. For example our PVT GROUP teaches VT and Kickboxing for fitness, but we separate the 2 for our students so they know that Kickboxing was not part of WSLVT. It's only fair to the students so they know what they are training.

I understand your desire to preserve the teachings of a sifu to avoid people teaching a mix-bag of chop suey (WCK, BJJ, etc) and then labeling it all as coming from that original sifu. I've experienced some of this myself in the past, and it can cause confusion at times as to what 'is' and what 'isn't' WCK.

But you do come off as some newly self-appointed authority that is now giving already established teachers 'permission' to continue doing what they are doing, for now. Curious, who appointed you? Since this is a new organization, I'm sure it wasn't WSL... And what happens to guys like Sean if he starts breaking the 'new rules'?

I am an outsider to WSL, so doesn't really matter to me. But I am interested in the preservation of WCK and the lengths some people will go to in this regard. And since it's been brought up publicly, I'm just curious in how your new association might handle 'rogues' like Sean in the future that say they have no interest in the new association? :)
Will you still continue to tell him what is acceptable/not acceptable to do in his school as you did here?

And in case you forgot, you did in fact give Sean your 'permission' to continue doing what he is doing with stipulations, even though he is not interested in your governing body. This is pretty quick work for an association that only announced themselves a week ago:

Again, just to reiterate... It is perfectly fine for you to train grappling and ground fighting as long as you let the students understand that the WSLVT itself did not have any grappling and ground fighting.

Are you his sifu?

[wkmark]

I understand your desire to preserve the teachings of a sifu to avoid people teaching a mix-bag of chop suey (WCK, BJJ, etc) and then labeling it all as coming from that original sifu. I've experienced some of this myself in the past, and it can cause confusion at times as to what 'is' and what 'isn't' WCK.

But you do come off as some newly self-appointed authority that is now giving already established teachers 'permission' to continue doing what they are doing, for now. Curious, who appointed you? Since this is a new organization, I'm sure it wasn't WSL... And what happens to guys like Sean if he starts breaking the 'new rules'?

I am an outsider to WSL, so doesn't really matter to me. But I am interested in the preservation of WCK and the lengths some people will go to in this regard. And since it's been brought up publicly, I'm just curious in how your new association might handle 'rogues' like Sean in the future that say they have no interest in the new association? :)
Will you still continue to tell him what is acceptable/not acceptable to do in his school as you did here?

And in case you forgot, you did in fact give Sean your 'permission' to continue doing what he is doing with stipulations, even though he is not interested in your governing body. This is pretty quick work for an association that only announced themselves a week ago:


Are you his sifu?

Apologies to Sean if he had felt that way as I certainly did not mean it as that. If ppl want to join or not join the association, it's perfectly fine. The association was started with request from John Wong (who is Sifu WSL's son) I am part of the people involved with helping getting it started.

All I wanted was to clear up some general confusion with regards to WSLSA. If that lead to even more confusion then again my apologies to all.

Should any of you have any future questions, you can direct it to the relevant contacts as per the facebook page or the homepage.

[Sean66]

@wkmark
No worries mate, I didn't take your comment the wrong way at all.
Actually, I already make it very clear to my students that grappling, ground fighting and the chin na techniques that I teach do not come from the Ving Tsun that I learned from Michael Kurth. Transparency is always the best policy.

However, I still ask myself how exactly an association of this kind will really promote the Ving Tsun of WSL. The WSLSA is about standardization and control. And what made WSL different, presumably, was his focus on innovation and the individual needs/abilities of his students.

[Vajramusti]

Before Kevin does his favorite thing and delete his thread when things go his way::

. WSL was a great fighter and brought much recognition to Ip man's wing chun. Many WSL students are continuing with WSL's contributions.

I don't see the need for a policing agency. WSL was nota dogmatist and besides there is no papacy in wing chun.

[LFJ]

I still ask myself how exactly an association of this kind will really promote the Ving Tsun of WSL. The WSLSA is about standardization and control. And what made WSL different, presumably, was his focus on innovation and the individual needs/abilities of his students.

That's my question. It seems so non-WSLVT to standardize "WSLVT"...

I think David Peterson for example has done a great job at passing on the material as he learned it from WSL. But why be so bent on standardization? WSL himself experimented and found his way, and even encouraged YM to change certain things.

Is it that these folks really believe that now after centuries of development, with WSL we have reached a perfect system and we should protect it from further alteration? Or is it just that they aren't as skilled and have less practical fighting experience and so must adhere as close to their master's instruction as possible for fear of making mistakes, especially now that he no longer with us?

Might it be a little of both?

[Paul T England]

It's always nice to see Sean's work. Great Film.

I think its great that WSL groups have an association representing Wong Shun Leung's teachings. I just hope it does not become to political and I would like to think of it as a family/brotherhood to promote their methods.

Its sad that they exclude people who promote other arts or skills. To me qigong & iron palm don't need to be mystical and I would suggest wing chun has both to some degree. The basics of qigong can be understood as relax, root, centre and extend which most people practice in SLT.

I wonder what bruce lee and WSL would have thought of MMA, BJJ and the development of wing chun.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Sean66]

Thanks for the compliment, Paul.

And well put concerning qi gong and iron palm.
If you are conditioning your hands through lots of bag work, etc. you are developing "iron palm" skills.
If you are concentrating on your structure and your breathing you are doing qi gong.

WSL was reacting against people who made outrageous and even magical claims with regards to iron palm and qi gong. And rightly so, for there were/are quite a few charlatans out there when it comes to these things. But both are actually very straightforward and practical.

And I bet that if there had been MMA in Hong Kong at the time, WSL would have been training it!

[Vajramusti]

And I bet that if there had been MMA in Hong Kong at the time, WSL would have been training it!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really? He didn't have wc based answers for MMA-ists?

[LFJ]

And I bet that if there had been MMA in Hong Kong at the time, WSL would have been training it!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really? He didn't have wc based answers for MMA-ists?

He trained other martial arts/fighting sports from Karate to Western Boxing, but left them all in favor of the street effectiveness of WC which can face them and isn't bound by rules. What would a mix of such martial arts/fighting sports have to bring him to train MMA? Anyway, I don't think any of us can really speak for him, as to what he would or would not have trained. But I believe his system of VT indeed had/has answers for any type of fighter.

[Sean66]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

I'm just saying that if there had been mma schools in Hong Kong back when WSL was a young lad, before he started ving tsun, he probably would have gone in and signed up for some classes.

A young fellow like him, interested in practical fighting, would have been naturally drawn to mma....just my opinion. Of course I could be totally wrong, but it doesn't really matter. It's just pure speculation on my part.

I'm not making any claims of superiority of one art over the other.

[Wayfaring]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really? He didn't have wc based answers for MMA-ists?

Well, considering that his student/junior Bruce Lee is considered among the "pioneers" of MMA, and that was quite a bit later, I would say that whatever the answers are, the questions hadn't been posed yet.

Nowadays that the questions have been posed, my observation is the majority of WCK practitioners avoid sparring with "MMA-ists" like they are all lepers.

[jesper]

Well, considering that his student/junior Bruce Lee is considered among the "pioneers" of MMA, and that was quite a bit later, I would say that whatever the answers are, the questions hadn't been posed yet.

Nowadays that the questions have been posed, my observation is the majority of WCK practitioners avoid sparring with "MMA-ists" like they are all lepers.

they smell funny :D

[Frost]

they smell funny :D

and can also fight:)

[Sean66]

Hey guys,

We did an exchange with a local mma school here in Lille. Was good. My students got to work on some ground fighting skills, and did some good sparring at the end. They all did well. One of them got submitted twice in a row by the same technique (he was sparring against one of the instructors). Funnily, though, this student had the most ground fighting experience. I guess he was more willing/comfortable with going to the ground. The others didn't get taken down.

[Kaybee]

Cool! That sounds really good, Sean. :)

[k gledhill]

Hey guys,

We did an exchange with a local mma school here in Lille. Was good. My students got to work on some ground fighting skills, and did some good sparring at the end. They all did well. One of them got submitted twice in a row by the same technique (he was sparring against one of the instructors). Funnily, though, this student had the most ground fighting experience. I guess he was more willing/comfortable with going to the ground. The others didn't get taken down.

How was stand-up comparisons ?

[Wayfaring]

Hey guys,

We did an exchange with a local mma school here in Lille. Was good. My students got to work on some ground fighting skills, and did some good sparring at the end. They all did well. One of them got submitted twice in a row by the same technique (he was sparring against one of the instructors). Funnily, though, this student had the most ground fighting experience. I guess he was more willing/comfortable with going to the ground. The others didn't get taken down.

Good job Sean and team. Keep advancing it forward.

[Sean66]

Hey Kev,

Stand-up was even. In general there was a lack of mobility, but my guys used (or tried to use) angling more.

Footwork, footwork, footwork.....

The mma guys were not that technically advanced, but young and full of energy. They go at it pretty hard.

[Frost]

Out if interest what was the average training time between you guys and theres? What gear did you use and what were the rules you sparred under?

Nice to see you taking your students along to these things is it something you do a lot of?

[k gledhill]

Hey Kev,

Stand-up was even. In general there was a lack of mobility, but my guys used (or tried to use) angling more.

Footwork, footwork, footwork.....

The mma guys were not that technically advanced, but young and full of energy. They go at it pretty hard.

Good observation, I too use much more footwork and angling for boxers in my gym. Our simultaneous actions and lat sao jik cun work great to follow hands back to guard. The boxers in the gym commonly ask how I would deal with a combination, incorrect thinking is to stand still and try to hand chase as the boxer throws random stuff, but when I start moving 'tactically' to their line of force, they have to move too, so I can read them easier and set up counters from angles and low kick as they try to face me.
I add take-down defense on the same premise to including simple angling with low palm strikes . So balanced multi angle movement under pressure from seung ma toi ma is very important and correlates perfectly.
btw : I have adopted a small group from a NYC VT group recently who where not taught ANY movement other than static ygkym in chi-sao drilling after years in the school, hand chasing as well....
Some input from a boxing coach I am teaching, he said that the static nature of the basic intro level of VT is misleading to a beginner. A new boxer is shown movement straight away. I try to give beginners an over view of movement to come and make them do simple shadowing drills with management of tactical positions being the goal. Our footwork drills in Seung ma toi ma are very similar to the boxing methods the coaches use in my gym.

[Sean66]

Here is a pic of the mma group.

http://tmp.lavoixdunord.fr/mediastore/VDN/A2011/M11/la-lutte-contact-une-synthese-de-tous-1448347.jpg

The guy on the far right (looking at the pic) is The owner of the school, Claude Speekaert. He used to be a French Greco-Roman champion. I think he started giving the "lutte contact" (that's what he calls it) classes several years ago, together with two other teachers who have experience in mma. So I think it's fair to say that his students have been doing their thing about as long as mine (I started my school four years ago).

Claude let us use his space for a ground-fighting and Taijiquan seminar with Tim Cartmell, and invited us to come train and spar with his group whenever we want. Very cool guy.

When we sparred with them it was with minimal equipment. Just mouthpieces and either light boxing gloves or mma gloves. No one really set down any rules. Just went for it and tried to employ what we'd been working on.

[Sean66]

Kevin, those are some excellent observations.
I, too, try to introduce my students to the footwork right away.
I start with basic forward, backward and lateral movement keeping the proper "facing" and then add diagonal advancing and retreating movement.
Then I have them do the basic footwork drills with a partner, respecting the idea of safe distance.
Then I add the retreating and cutting-off movement (angling).

The more static drills and entering drills that start in ygkym help reinforce the proper body positioning. Add to that the "schieben" exercises from Philipp and you got some great ways to train your footwork.

[k gledhill]

Kevin, those are some excellent observations.
I, too, try to introduce my students to the footwork right away.
I start with basic forward, backward and lateral movement keeping the proper "facing" and then add diagonal advancing and retreating movement.
Then I have them do the basic footwork drills with a partner, respecting the idea of safe distance.
Then I add the retreating and cutting-off movement (angling).

The more static drills and entering drills that start in ygkym help reinforce the proper body positioning. Add to that the "schieben" exercises from Philipp and you got some great ways to train your footwork.

I can see it in the clips, nice work. We do very similar stuff ( no surprise !)

[sihing]

Kevin, those are some excellent observations.
I, too, try to introduce my students to the footwork right away.
I start with basic forward, backward and lateral movement keeping the proper "facing" and then add diagonal advancing and retreating movement.
Then I have them do the basic footwork drills with a partner, respecting the idea of safe distance.
Then I add the retreating and cutting-off movement (angling).

The more static drills and entering drills that start in ygkym help reinforce the proper body positioning. Add to that the "schieben" exercises from Philipp and you got some great ways to train your footwork.

I do similar things as well. The new ppl are introduced to footwork right away, chasing drills, and in the stepping dan chi sau it is there too, all over the place. But the thing they need to get right off is stability in stance, being able to gather the force from the leg/glutes and use it stationary, then doing the samethings while moving around,,,its all a progression, most find it hard to get it while moving around. VT is different mechanics, set up and basic strategy than boxing so we need more stability than they do IMO.

Nice video:)

James

[desertwingchun2]

Did Tim share any of his TCMA styles?

[Frost]

Here is a pic of the mma group.

http://tmp.lavoixdunord.fr/mediastore/VDN/A2011/M11/la-lutte-contact-une-synthese-de-tous-1448347.jpg

The guy on the far right (looking at the pic) is The owner of the school, Claude Speekaert. He used to be a French Greco-Roman champion. I think he started giving the "lutte contact" (that's what he calls it) classes several years ago, together with two other teachers who have experience in mma. So I think it's fair to say that his students have been doing their thing about as long as mine (I started my school four years ago).

Claude let us use his space for a ground-fighting and Taijiquan seminar with Tim Cartmell, and invited us to come train and spar with his group whenever we want. Very cool guy.

When we sparred with them it was with minimal equipment. Just mouthpieces and either light boxing gloves or mma gloves. No one really set down any rules. Just went for it and tried to employ what we'd been working on.

thanks for the reply, its good that you can train lioke this with the local MMA fuys without any problems it will help both groups out.
Do you get together with other kung fu groups to train this way as well?

[Sean66]

Hi desertwingchun2,
Yes, Tim corrected me on my Sun Taiji and spent a day working with us on taiji body method, fighting strategy and applications....it was awesome! He even showed a couple of applications from Bagua.
He is one of those rare gems in the TCMA world - someone who can really fight with the stuff as well as teach it in an extremely clear way.

We're inviting him back this year for some more on taiji, grappling and ground-fighting.

If any of you have the chance to go out to Cali and train with him, I highly recommend it.

[Sean66]

Hey Frost,

There are two other schools that invited us to spar with them: a Tae Kwon Do school and another Kung Fu school (they do Shaolin Quan).

I have a new student who teaches Hung Gar, so maybe there's a possibility to spar with his students as well.

I invited the other wing chun school here as well, but they didn't want to have anything to do with us :-(

[Frost]

Hey Frost,

There are two other schools that invited us to spar with them: a Tae Kwon Do school and another Kung Fu school (they do Shaolin Quan).

I have a new student who teaches Hung Gar, so maybe there's a possibility to spar with his students as well.

I invited the other wing chun school here as well, but they didn't want to have anything to do with us :-(

cheers Sean just interested because in my expereince its easier to get an invite to train with the local MMA clubs (and much less ego involved) than it is to spar with local kung fu clubs.
This is my sifus expereince as well. He used to run open sparring sessions for guys all round the area but other clubs stopped coming along so now he goes to the nearest pro MMA club to train and the local judo club as well.
Its good that you are getting your students out there and letting them expereince other arts and other areas of combat

[desertwingchun2]

Hi desertwingchun2,
If any of you have the chance to go out to Cali and train with him, I highly recommend it.

I have thought about it. He teaches about an hour from me. His first sifu and I are friends. He has been telling me to go check Tim out.

[Sean66]

Man, if Tim is just an hour away from you you should really go out there and train with him. Truly a great teacher, and a very nice guy as well.