I Give Up Kung Fu is lost

[wiz cool c]

Ok I have been living in china 6 years now,three in Beijing and now three in Shenzhen Guang Dong province. In Beijing I did Shuai Jiao and Bagua Zhang,and now here in shenzhen have done some Hung Chuan and now Shaolin.

So today i wanted to interview my teacher for an idea I have for an article. The applications from the form Da Hong Quan. Seems simple enough right? It is like pulling teeth trying to get any application or partner work from the teachers here. And not just me. My training partner, is from the uk,we meet in the park once a week to do Shuai Jiao and work some applications and partner drills. He is having the same experience from the guy teaching him Xing Yi.

At one point in today's class I did got him to show me an application from the form. After class during our interview at one point he mentions that kung fu or forms aren't for that,they aren't for fighting. So why did I just learn an application against an arm grab chin na lock is to pull away and then elbow the guy in the face!

The idea for the article was going to be about the applications of Da Hong Quan,and how the monks practice paired work together for fighting with these moves. I got every answer but how they train together. What info I did get was that they do forms for three years before doing any application work ,and when they do learn applications they do them once or twice a week.

Kind of makes you feel like what is the point. If you have to pull teeth to get the applications,and they try to discourage you from learning the fighting aspect,well then what? I can learn aerobics,and do judo if I want to actually train applications and do some fighting. At one point the teacher even said at this school we don't teach this type of fighting from the forms training. and guess what they have sanda classes at this school. So it is forms or fighting.I know this all stems from the cultural revolutions and the chinese goverment"doesn't want brothers fighting brothers'brain washing bull****. But they have destroyed the cutlure of kung fu, what a pitty.

[Subitai]

I'm not saying that any of these are true but I've often heard a couple of expressions or comments:

1) "Most of the good kung fu teachers either left the country or were killed" ... in reference to the cultural revolution.


2) That "if you want to fight with Kung Fu you have to go OUTSIDE of china"

- From the prospective of TCMA = I find it interesting that it's mostly Non Chinese that get the hype about fighting skills in the modern day ( Not forgotten fights from the past between 2 Chinese guys or clans) .
I'm talking about dudes from TCMA willing to throw down today as in the modern day. (Not San Da) For example, in WC...it's always NON Chinese I could name a few like Emin Boztep and others == I'm SORRY IF I DON'T NAME YOU IN THIS EXAMPLE. BUT SUFFICE TO SAY THAT IF YOU LIKE TO THROW DOWN AND YOUR NOT CHINESE THEN YOU PROVE MY POINT.

It's almost like a joke without punch line: Man walks into a bar and see's three martial artists, a Black guy a White Guy and an Asian guy... the bartender says which one do you want to learn from? Guess who gets picked every time?

What sux is what i'm always saying: RACE has nothing to do with martial arts, and neither does the location in which you learn it.

Now I must say the "B SIDE" of this. I believe Martial and Arts are just self expression man. So if you want to stress the Fighting martial aspects hey man, go for it. Also if you want to just focus on the Art's and cultural side mostly, that's cool too. To each his own man, you know?

So mabe, you just havn't found what you're looking for yet. So dude, move outta there and travel some more...you've got your forms (Art's Portion of the equation) So long as you never give up trying to discover the truths for yourself, as least you're on the journey man.

Also i'm available Monday - Fridays if you're ever in Southeastern, CT. :D:D:D

[LFJ]

That's just Songshan Shaolin you're talking about, and it's not surprising. I've been saying it also. Many of the monks and young guys from surrounding schools in the Shaolin area just do the forms for exercise or competition and then rely on Sanda for the "fighting" aspect, even though it's also just competitive sport.

They may have a few hypothetical applications for some moves, like you got, which may or may not be practical. But if you really want to learn the concepts and principles of the systems in Songshan Shaolin and how to actually use them, you have to go to Henan and search the area for the old folk masters who still know this stuff, or be fortunate enough to find someone who has. They exist. But unfortunately, you're right. In the majority of Shaolin practitioners, wherever you go, it is lost.

[TAO YIN]

In China, and this is NOT the golden rule happening all of the time, many teachers are still reluctant to show applications to foreigners. Also, it is a face saving issue...if the applications shown do not work against the foreigner asking, not good.

Most teachers are artists, some are fighters. And even so, sometimes the fighters do not want to show applications, for face issues, or simply for wanting the foreigner to think of it alone.

If you are in Shenzhen and are not finding people who know their stuff, look again and maybe travel a bit. Guangdong is filled with people who know what is up with the practical applications and are open about teaching fighting. Even some foreigners who have lived there for a while teach... If nothing else, go to Hong Kong and check out the scene there. There are some very good fighters/ teachers all over Southern China.

[YouKnowWho]

Many TCMA teachers do believe that "solo form training" is "combat training". When you ask, "Where is your opponent?", they won't even understand what you are talking about. Those teachers mis-lead their students totally to a wrong path. This happen in both China and Taiwan. Their execuse is "TCMA is more than just fighting". If those teaches can be honest to their students that they only teach "health" and "culture'. They can save their students a lot of time. By using "combat" label to promote "health" and "culture" is not only dishonest but also cheating.

My 1st Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" guy when I was 7. He told me that Taiji was good for fighting. First he had no "combat" experience himself. Second he didn't know application himself. If he was honest to me and told me that if I wanted to learn combat, I'll need to find another teacher, I will still respect him even today. Instead he had lied to me and had damaged Taiji reputation in my mind for the rest of my life.

[Neeros]

This kind of thing makes me so thankful for my teacher, and lineage where we emphasize combat, and the use of forms and kung fu techniques, stances, and footwork in live combat and sparring as past masters did, instead of discarding it all for kickboxing. Keep looking, you will find genuine traditional kung fu, possibly not in china, but it is out there.

[bawang]

you want real kung fu, and even travel to china. what do you look for? shaolin-taiji-xingyi-bagua. then you complain you got milked.

[SPJ]

Many TCMA teachers do believe that "solo form training" is "combat training". When you ask, "Where is your opponent?", they won't even understand what you are talking about. Those teachers mis-lead their students totally to a wrong path. This happen in both China and Taiwan. Their execuse is "TCMA is more than just fighting". If those teaches can be honest to their students that they only teach "health" and "culture'. They can save their students a lot of time. By using "combat" label to promote "health" and "culture" is not only dishonest but also cheating.

My 1st Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" guy when I was 7. He told me that Taiji was good for fighting. First he had no "combat" experience himself. Second he didn't know application himself. If he was honest to me and told me that if I wanted to learn combat, I'll need to find another teacher, I will still respect him even today. Instead he had lied to me and had damaged Taiji reputation in my mind for the rest of my life.

Yes. Most people are doing forms to exercise for health or fitness.

To learn to fight or combat is a whole different story altogether.

Start with basic punch and kick against pads, bags then moving targets.

Start with basic qin na with a partner.

Start with basic throws with a partner.

----

:)

[-N-]

Many TCMA teachers do believe that "solo form training" is "combat training". When you ask, "Where is your opponent?", they won't even understand what you are talking about.

What legit TCMA teacher does that?

[xinyidizi]

No not all of them are racist and not all of them want to rip off foreigners. Sometimes you need to be patient and humble until they start teaching. The important thing is to find a good teacher after some research and then you need work on the 人情 part.

[YouKnowWho]

What legit TCMA teacher does that?

Those who believes

- "principle" can be apply to "technique" without going through partner training.
- "Fajin into the thin air" is all you will need and refuse to talk about timing, opportunity, and angle.

[bawang]

most mainland traditional kung fu is anti western and anti modernization.

hongkongers teach kung fu freely to westerners because they were prostitute colony of britain for over 150 years. chinatown sifus teach westerners because they want to be accepted by americans.

shuaijiao freely teaches westerners because shuai jiao is not chinese marital arts. its mongolian wrestling. it has no chinese cultural background.



the boxer rebellion societies in the mainland are alive and well. they changed name into "cultural center" "cultural preservation society" "exercise society" etc.

of course its not fair having forms dangled in front of you, then denied learning the real thing. but this is real life. there are people that dont get along with you. not everybody is your friend. not everybody is eager to please westerners.

[YouKnowWho]

I have always believed that the praying mantis 乱接(Luan Jie) form is a very important form in the PM system training. It trains body push/pull limbs. Oneday I visted a PM school in China. The teacher taught a lot of forms but the 乱接(Luan Jie) form. I asked that PM teacher why. He said, "You just don't teach 乱接(Luan Jie) to anybody." If he treated his own students as "anybody", what kind of hope do you have to learn from him?

That teacher also asked me how many PM forms do I teach to my students. I told him 3 forms only, 崩步(Beng Bu), 乱接(Luan Jie), 摘要(Zhai Yao). He then said, "How long will you be able to keep your students with just 3 forms?" I was speechless after that. Of course I didn't tell him that I can teach my students 400 different throws that they will need more than one life time to learn.

[bawang]

post communist mainland kung fu became popular after jet li movie the shaolin temple in 1982.

the purpose of mainstream mainland kung fu is to make money.

[bawang]

. He declared that there was no good kung fu in Chengdu and left to shanghai.

the cash cows always go to beijing or shanghai. lol

[Fa Xing]

Are you doing things to further your teacher's family? Can you help his nephew get into school overseas? Are you willing to invest money in business projects to help his clan succeed? If you don't treat them as family, why would they treat you this way? What are you willing to sacrifice now to help others? If you don't even think that way, then you don't have a hero's heart and would never use your gongfu to help others and will be happy to forget your teacher in old age.

Kung fu was never meant for small people. It is designed to be lost on them. This is why it takes ten years to test a student.

When I was in China an Australian guy came to Chengdu to learn kung fu. He demanded that I show him a form and give him the applications. I lied and said that I wasn't good enough to teach him. He asked who else would show him. I told him truthfully that no masters in Chengdu could teach him what he wanted to know. He declared that there was no good kung fu in Chengdu and left to shanghai. Good riddance. He wanted to show off and say that he learned kung fu in China.

Another Australian was good enough to let me know that if I could beat him up then I could be his Shifu. I told him that I would never teach him, but invited him outside to spar. He was too scared and backed down, in spite of my friendly smile and promise not to hurt him permanently.

I really could care less what these wastes of oxygen thought of my ability. They didn't deserve my time, they deserved to get ripped off by some wushu school. They will eventually get beaten up by some mma guy. Good.

Euro centric thinkers tend to want a full explanation before going on to the next motion. They will especially demand proof from those they don't respect. They wouldn't demand so much proof at an entry level class at Harvard, but if it comes from a non European system of knowledge, then it must be held in suspicion as primitive nonsesense.

To Chinese it just makes them think that the foreigner is arrogant and stupid. I am inclined to agree.

Asking on every motions comes off as abrasive, impatient, and lazy. Challenging and testing everything is expected..on your own time.

Figure it out and ask a detail question and you will get an answer for that piece of the puzzle. You have to put the puzzle together by yourself.

The road is there. If you want to practice that movement for hours every day and practice it outside of class you will eventually figure it out.

Ask intelligent questions and you will get quality answers.

Be a bigger person and you will be trusted with bigger information.

My experience in a lot of martial arts, traditional and otherwise.

[YouKnowWho]

Are you doing things to further your teacher's family? Can you help his nephew get into school overseas? Are you willing to invest money in business projects to help his clan succeed? If you don't treat them as family, why would they treat you this way? What are you willing to sacrifice now to help others? If you don't even think that way, then you don't have a hero's heart and would never use your gongfu to help others and will be happy to forget your teacher in old age.
You should not treat teacher student relationship that complicate. If you are a teacher, as long as a student pays his hour fee, you will teach him whatever that he wants to learn. Besides that you don't want to mess with his personal life. You don't want him to get involved with your personal life either. Don't expect birthday card, Christmas card from your students. The less that you expect, the less that you will get your feeling hurt if you don't get it. In the middle of the night, your student calls you because his girlfriend breaks away from him. Will you spend hours try to calm him down? Is that part of teacher's responsibility? Or the student just expect too much out of his teacher? If your student goes to jail and calls you, will you go to jail and bail him out? If your student kills somebody and on the run, will you provide him money or find him a hidden place?

If you are a teacher and you are not willing to give what your student wants from you, how can you expect from your students to do more than they are willing to do?

[bawang]

The less that you expect, the less that you will get your feeling hurt if you don't get it.

its time to heal your broken heart. i will be the son you never had, baba.

[TAO YIN]

Oh well, I guess it is like... find better teachers, or use your own creativity and come up with your own applications if for some strange reason you don't want to find better teachers.

Students should be coming up with their own applications pretty fast. Nevertheless, good teachers, even in China, will be teaching them applications and how to come up with their own, from day one. These basic things should be common to any class practice. If not, walk away.

[taai gihk yahn]

its time to heal your broken heart. i will be the son you never had, baba.

you just want to get to his taai taai...she will be ur new mama; mayb u will work out ur attachment issues via surrogate breast feeding?

[mawali]

Ok I have been living in china 6 years now,three in Beijing and now three in Shenzhen Guang Dong province. In Beijing I did Shuai Jiao and Bagua Zhang,and now here in shenzhen have done some Hung Chuan and now Shaolin.

So today i wanted to interview my teacher for an idea I have for an article. The applications from the form Da Hong Quan. Seems simple enough right? It is like pulling teeth trying to get any application or partner work from the teachers here. And not just me. My training partner, is from the uk,we meet in the park once a week to do Shuai Jiao and work some applications and partner drills. He is having the same experience from the guy teaching him Xing Yi.

At one point in today's class I did got him to show me an application from the form. After class during our interview at one point he mentions that kung fu or forms aren't for that,they aren't for fighting. So why did I just learn an application against an arm grab chin na lock is to pull away and then elbow the guy in the face!

The idea for the article was going to be about the applications of Da Hong Quan,and how the monks practice paired work together for fighting with these moves. I got every answer but how they train together. What info I did get was that they do forms for three years before doing any application work ,and when they do learn applications they do them once or twice a week.

Kind of makes you feel like what is the point. If you have to pull teeth to get the applications,and they try to discourage you from learning the fighting aspect,well then what? I can learn aerobics,and do judo if I want to actually train applications and do some fighting. At one point the teacher even said at this school we don't teach this type of fighting from the forms training. and guess what they have sanda classes at this school. So it is forms or fighting.I know this all stems from the cultural revolutions and the chinese goverment"doesn't want brothers fighting brothers'brain washing bull****. But they have destroyed the cutlure of kung fu, what a pitty.

Take it for what it's worth and enjoy it! Don't be discouraged.
You know the score so do your own thang.

[bawang]

Take it for what it's worth and enjoy it! Don't be discouraged.
You know the score so do your own thang.

hes one of those big ego lao wais. thats why he keeps getting milked. u can spot them a mile away

he bragged about being a token white man on chinese tv and being human furniture for chinese businessmen, he thinks hes the next dashan lol

[-N-]

What legit TCMA teacher does that?


Those who believes

- "principle" can be apply to "technique" without going through partner training.
- "Fajin into the thin air" is all you will need and refuse to talk about timing, opportunity, and angle.

Haha. I believe the operative word is "legit".

The ones you described are fake/scam, not legit.

[-N-]

If you are a teacher, as long as a student pays his hour fee, you will teach him whatever that he wants to learn.

Just because the teacher teaches, doesn't mean that the student will/can learn.

Sometimes the student has no clue, or is just not ready yet. There is no point in giving advanced details when the student still has fundamental problems.

[Syn7]

Are you doing things to further your teacher's family? Can you help his nephew get into school overseas? Are you willing to invest money in business projects to help his clan succeed? If you don't treat them as family, why would they treat you this way? What are you willing to sacrifice now to help others? If you don't even think that way, then you don't have a hero's heart and would never use your gongfu to help others and will be happy to forget your teacher in old age.

Kung fu was never meant for small people. It is designed to be lost on them. This is why it takes ten years to test a student.

When I was in China an Australian guy came to Chengdu to learn kung fu. He demanded that I show him a form and give him the applications. I lied and said that I wasn't good enough to teach him. He asked who else would show him. I told him truthfully that no masters in Chengdu could teach him what he wanted to know. He declared that there was no good kung fu in Chengdu and left to shanghai. Good riddance. He wanted to show off and say that he learned kung fu in China.

Another Australian was good enough to let me know that if I could beat him up then I could be his Shifu. I told him that I would never teach him, but invited him outside to spar. He was too scared and backed down, in spite of my friendly smile and promise not to hurt him permanently.

I really could care less what these wastes of oxygen thought of my ability. They didn't deserve my time, they deserved to get ripped off by some wushu school. They will eventually get beaten up by some mma guy. Good.

Euro centric thinkers tend to want a full explanation before going on to the next motion. They will especially demand proof from those they don't respect. They wouldn't demand so much proof at an entry level class at Harvard, but if it comes from a non European system of knowledge, then it must be held in suspicion as primitive nonsesense.

To Chinese it just makes them think that the foreigner is arrogant and stupid. I am inclined to agree.

Asking on every motions comes off as abrasive, impatient, and lazy. Challenging and testing everything is expected..on your own time.

Figure it out and ask a detail question and you will get an answer for that piece of the puzzle. You have to put the puzzle together by yourself.

The road is there. If you want to practice that movement for hours every day and practice it outside of class you will eventually figure it out.

Ask intelligent questions and you will get quality answers.

Be a bigger person and you will be trusted with bigger information.



So you expect absolute loyalty on faith that you are as good as you think you are and think anyone who is skeptical of that is a waste of oxygen? Really?


I agree it is arrogant to make demands PERIOD. But as a consumer and somebody who is open to spending years learning a style, you need some providence. That is not arrogant, it's smart.

You don't stay young forever and the opportunity to condition yourself in a way that allows you to continue into old age is something that needs to be taken seriously. You may only get one chance. If you are overly trusting and naive and you spend 10 years learning something, waiting for the day to be taught the applications then realize it isn't going to happen you have missed your chance. Now you have ten years of bad habits to overcome and you are that much closer to old age. God forbid you actually do damage to yourself through bad advice. And that doesn't mean the teacher is a swindler, he may well believe he can fight and is sincere. Doesn't change the truth tho.

If you go to Harvard and say "show me the money" they will. They will show you all their successes, will explain what you will learn from A to Z and tell you as much as they can right up front. This is why people take their word. yes some will be swayed by the reputation alone, but then that goes both ways. To rely on reputation alone is a red flag for anyone who is not so easily baffled by bullsh1t. Not to say that everyone who goes by rep alone is a fraud, just that you can't blame some for questioning such a lack of transparency.

Harvard does not say "don't ask what 3rd year will be like, just do the work and when you are ready we will give you our great knowledge" to a first year med student.

I understand why those two examples bother you and yes they were idiots with ZERO tact. No doubt. But to pigeon hole every guy who questions the style as one of these guys is no different than when people call all TCMA useless crap that can't be used in a fight. It's a very narrow minded approach to learning. And teaching, for that matter.

[Syn7]

You should not treat teacher student relationship that complicate. If you are a teacher, as long as a student pays his hour fee, you will teach him whatever that he wants to learn. Besides that you don't want to mess with his personal life. You don't want him to get involved with your personal life either. Don't expect birthday card, Christmas card from your students. The less that you expect, the less that you will get your feeling hurt if you don't get it. In the middle of the night, your student calls you because his girlfriend breaks away from him. Will you spend hours try to calm him down? Is that part of teacher's responsibility? Or the student just expect too much out of his teacher? If your student goes to jail and calls you, will you go to jail and bail him out? If your student kills somebody and on the run, will you provide him money or find him a hidden place?

If you are a teacher and you are not willing to give what your student wants from you, how can you expect from your students to do more than they are willing to do?

I agree.

That is the difference between student and disciple.

Or students you are friends with and students you teach for money.

[taai gihk yahn]

the whole "it's rude to ask too many specific questions" bit is nothing more than a cultural convention that is used to obfuscate things in such a way as to keep the teacher indefinitely "higher" than the student: if the teacher is never really put on the spot, then it's hard to discredit them if they can't answer something - so discouraging too many (any) questions is one way to maintain their status; in China the teacher is meant to be venerated, like, forever; so if the student is always uncertain, even a little bit, as to whether or not they have got it just right, they will always be attached to that teacher; for all the talk about verifying for oneself, there will always be a lingering doubt if you can't just ask your teacher straight out what the scoop is; it's the whole "I've got a secret" mentality that drives this system, like there's always is going to be something that your teacher has that you just don't 'get"; it also breeds arrogance on the part of the teacher, and Andy is a great example of someone who feigns humility (e.g. - by lying to someone saying that he's not good enough to teach them) but in actuality thinks most highly of himself; the fact that he says kung fu is not for small people infers that he considers himself to be a big (essentially meaning better) person (and yet he refers to some people as "wastes of oxygen"; hmmm); and he can get away with this because of the way this system is set-up, to keep the student from seeing the man behind the curtain; and that's not to say that there aren't people with significant skill teaching legitimately and sincerely who don't want to reveal everything to just any old person - that's understandable; but at the same time, if a student has a legitimate question on day one, nothing should prevent them from asking - it blows my mind that someone asking a lot of questions would be considered abrasive, impatient and lazy - I'd consider them concerted, motivated and conscientious - they want to understand things as much as possible so that they don't go off on their own and practice something incorrectly! (of course, if the guy is a jerk, I may not want to teach him because he's, well, a jerk; but that's not the same...)
/rant

[xiao yao]

ive never met a teacher who is unwilling to answer questions. sometimes i think its the way we ask questions, westerners are often perceived as arrogant and in your face to chinese, who are shyer than us socially.

as far as teaching the application side, that just sounds like a common trait of a lot of modern shaolin, particularly the younger teachers.

[Orion Paximus]

If you are a teacher, as long as a student pays his hour fee, you will teach him whatever that he wants to learn.

If you are a teacher and you are not willing to give what your student wants from you, how can you expect from your students to do more than they are willing to do?

this is the opposite of what I subscribe to.

[Vajramusti]

Ok I have been living in china 6 years now,three in Beijing and now three in Shenzhen Guang Dong province. In Beijing I did Shuai Jiao and Bagua Zhang,and now here in shenzhen have done some Hung Chuan and now Shaolin.

So today i wanted to interview my teacher for an idea I have for an article. The applications from the form Da Hong Quan. Seems simple enough right? It is like pulling teeth trying to get any application or partner work from the teachers here. And not just me. My training partner, is from the uk,we meet in the park once a week to do Shuai Jiao and work some applications and partner drills. He is having the same experience from the guy teaching him Xing Yi.



Kind of makes you feel like what is the point. If you have to pull teeth to get the applications,and they try to discourage you from learning the fighting aspect,well then what? I can learn aerobics,and do judo if I want to actually train applications and do some fighting. At one point the teacher even said at this school we don't teach this type of fighting from the forms training. and guess what they have sanda classes at this school. So it is forms or fighting.I know this all stems from the cultural revolutions and the chinese goverment"doesn't want brothers fighting brothers'brain washing bull****. But they have destroyed the cutlure of kung fu, what a pitty.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mao and the Cultural revolution ruined the martial aspects of much kung fu. Many masters paid a stiff price. Some in the north as in Chen family preserved and understood their art. Some southern masters escaped to Hong Kong and preserved their wing chun, clf and bak mei.
Not all is lost.

[TenTigers]

some students place their teacher so high up on the pedestal that it never occurs to them to ask questions-which is different than "questioning your Sifu's teachings."
I remember learning an 'internal' set in Chinatown, and the 'seniors' said, "It's just for exercise. There are no fighting applications."
So, my training brother and I are in the corner, pulling out applications from the set and working them on each other, just trying things and ..thinking, and the Sifu, from across the room says,
"YES!" and runs over to us, all excited and says,"Yeah! Yeah! And you can do this. And this! And this! etc" and is working the applications with us.
The "Seniors," are just standing there, jaws agape...

Another teacher I know of has been teaching for many, many years, his skill is legendary. He has several disciples, who have been with him for decades...and none of them have developed to a high level. They never got his skill. They never will. Why? Because they don't think of asking him questions. They do pretty forms. When he dies, the system dies with him.

I remember taking private lessons with Sifu Yee Chi-Wai, and I would bring a notebook every class. I had written down at least ten questions each week, and he would sit down with me and generously answer whatever question I had.
After a while, when I would walk in, he would smile and say,"Did you bring your notebook?"

My present Sifu always asks the class, "Does anyone have any questions?"
We are good friends, and I often call him up in the middle of the night if something,"clicks."

I also ask my students if they have any questions and I also ask after each class,"What did you learn today?"
"Not what did I teach you, what did you learn?"
I want them to think, ponder, ask, learn.

[RenDaHai]

Its not lost.

It has always been this way... Some people just don't understand. Even in ShuiHuZhuan (a 14th century Chinese novel) the comparison is made between staff twirling and practical techniques. Clearly it was always a thing. It is not so much a difference in the movement. It is in understanding MA. A good MA can adapt any thing to become a weapon, even a ballet move. Some people have trained this way, some have not. Form is designed as a weapon so for someone who understands MA it is very easy to see how to use it.

YOu just didn't find the right person. But even when you do they will not answer interview type questions on applications. You would have to commit to training with them some time.

[bawang]

YOu just didn't find the right person. But even when you do they will not answer interview type questions on applications. You would have to commit to training with them some time.
he didnt find the teacher he wanted, but the teacher he deserved.

a prey pretending to be a predator, finding a predator disguised as prey.

[TenTigers]

he didnt find the teacher he wanted, but the teacher he deserved.

a prey pretending to be a predator, finding a predator disguised as prey.

impressive!:cool:

[bawang]

impressive!:cool:

i learned it from my second father john wang. the wisdom come from hims.



this thread is overreacting. its just another case of oblivious gullible gwailo syndrome.

[Vajramusti]

Its not lost.

It has always been this way... Some people just don't understand. Even in ShuiHuZhuan (a 14th century Chinese novel) the comparison is made between staff twirling and practical techniques. Clearly it was always a thing. It is not so much a difference in the movement. It is in understanding MA. A good MA can adapt any thing to become a weapon, even a ballet move. Some people have trained this way, some have not. Form is designed as a weapon so for someone who understands MA it is very easy to see how to use it.

YOu just didn't find the right person. But even when you do they will not answer interview type questions on applications. You would have to commit to training with them some time.
---------------------------------------------------------------

True
Not simple to find a good teacher or a good student in serious subjects.

[bawang]

---------------------------------------------------------------

True
Not simple to find a good teacher or a good student in serious subjects.

he wants to learn the old ways, ways of a purer time, a simpler, gentler time. he
want to find a wise master.
- goes straight to the most seedy, corrupt, anti tradition city in china


he wants to learn kung fu with real tradition and history without commercialization and greed
- goes looking for shaolin-taiji-xingyi-bagua

[wenshu]

It makes sense not to want to give up something right away that you had to work to get.

On the other hand the implicit "kung fu represents a more refined and noble form of combat than sport fighting" conceit is complete and utter bull****.

This whole thing reeks of exotic east asian fetishism; kung fu is magical and refined. . .


he wants to learn the old ways, ways of a purer time, a simpler, gentler time.

How exactly does your fetish for corporal punishment fit into this gentler time?

Gentle is the antithesis of noble.


I lied and said that I wasn't good enough to teach him.

Don't be so hard on yourself; you weren't really lying.

[bawang]

How exactly does your fetish for corporal punishment fit into this gentler time?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ0s6LMapnY

[YouKnowWho]

"it's rude to ask too many specific questions"

When I was 14, the 1st day I jointed in my longfist class, I asked my teacher what would he do if I punched at his face. He then said, "punch me." When I punched, he pulled my punching arm, blocked my leading leg, and made me to fall forward. I late on knew that move was 搂臂迎门踢(Lou Bei Yin Me Ti). I had learned that combat move even before I started my class with my longfist teacher.

50 years later, whenever someone talks about this theory, that theory, ... I still love to ask that person, "What will you do if I punch at your face?"

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I was 14, the 1st day I jointed in my longfist class, I asked my teacher what would he do if I punched at his face. He then said, "punch me." When I punched, he pulled my punching arm, blocked my leading leg, and made me to fall forward. I late on knew that move was 搂臂迎门踢(Lou Bei Yin Me Ti). I had learned that combat move even before I started my class with my longfist teacher.

50 years later, whenever people talk about this theory, that theory, ... I still love to ask people, "What will you do if I punch at your face?"

I wonder what he would have done if, after he told you to punch him in the face, you would have kicked him in the balls, LOL !

[YouKnowWho]

I wonder what he would have done if, after he told you to punch him in the face, you would have kicked him in the balls, LOL !

I was too innocent at that age. Today I will do exactly what you have just suggested. It's not that hard to deal with your opponent's attack if you know exactly what he is going to do to you.

[Dale Dugas]

yeah that would have worked out well...

I have changed attacks over the years and paid for it with a serious payback in pain on my end.:(

[SPJ]

50 years later, whenever someone talks about this theory, that theory, ... I still love to ask that person, "What will you do if I punch at your face?"

Yin Mian Zhao Yang Shou.

I was greeted with "Morning Sun Hand in my face".

When I first tried to punch my Ba Ji teacher, I was receiving a palm side up stab to my throat.

My fist was yang and his palm was yin.

He simply dodged his head by turning to the side an inch.

If you look at us from the top, our heads and hands are like a tai ji diagram.

I was forced to think about this and wrote an essay.

Yin and Yang or both sides of a coin was my first and never ending theory.

Theorize this and that.

Theory only makes sense when coupled with practice and it does not stand alone by itself.

;)

[YouKnowWho]

yeah that would have worked out well...

I have changed attacks over the years and paid for it with a serious payback in pain on my end.:(

IMO, it's not proper to do as sanjuro_ronin has suggested. You will burn that teacher-student relationship forever. It's perfect to do to a challenger though. That was Brendan Lai's favor trick. He would said, "I will just punch you once. If you can block my punch, you win. Otherwise, you lose." When he explained the role, his punch moved slowely toward his opponent's stomach a couple times. When he finally delievered his punch, his punch was toward his opponent's face.

[GeneChing]

I've got Dahongquan apps from each of the monks that I've studied it under. This would be Shi Decheng, Shi Guolin, Shi Yanxing and Yan Fei. Even one of the biaoyanseng monks that I trained alongside had apps for Dahongquan (they were really basic, tho). Not sure what your problem is exactly, wiz cool c. Maybe Andy Miles is right (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1193275#post1193275). Do you know what he means when he says '学问'?

[YouKnowWho]

When I first tried to punch my Ba Ji teacher, I was receiving a palm side up stab to my throat.

My solution to a face punch is very simple. When my opponent punches at my face, I'll front toes push kick at his belly, the harder that he punches, the harder that my kick may hurt him. Actually, I'll let him to run into my kick. I just borrow his forward momentum.

[wenshu]

Well aren't you clever. What is your name?

my name siwen

zhan siwen

[Lucas]

my name is bond

james bond

[wiz cool c]

couldn't open this page for a few days for some reason. i would like to mention that the teacher is a really cool guy, and we have a good rapport. i believe that he was taught this way. after all he mentioned in the interview, at shaolin they do only forms for three years before doing and partner training. the part that really got me was the we don't teach the fighting aspect in this school. now i do not blame him for the watering down of the teaching. firstly he doesn't own the school that he teaches in. secondly,i believe they are just following the non fighting way they are forced to follow. the extent of brain washing in this country is not be believed.


he also stated that in shaolin they learn a hand full of applications from a form. not what every move in the form means. and drill those few. in the end he agreed to teach me a few of the application from the form after i complete the form i am learning now.

[wenshu]

I remember learning an 'internal' set in Chinatown, and the 'seniors' said, "It's just for exercise. There are no fighting applications."
So, my training brother and I are in the corner, pulling out applications from the set and working them on each other, just trying things and ..thinking, and the Sifu, from across the room says,
"YES!" and runs over to us, all excited and says,"Yeah! Yeah! And you can do this. And this! And this! etc" and is working the applications with us.


Some people just have no imagination.

I've been taught to figure it out for myself. If I demonstrate something I discovered then sifu will clue me in to some subtlety or nuance I hadn't considered.

'Applications' is a misnomer anyways. Whenever someone starts up about applications it always ends up taking the form of crappy, unrealistic complaint partner b.s. instead of anything approaching actual usefulness.

Figure it out for yourselves people, stop begging sifu to hold your hand.

[wiz cool c]

Are you doing things to further your teacher's family? Can you help his nephew get into school overseas? Are you willing to invest money in business projects to help his clan succeed? If you don't treat them as family, why would they treat you this way? What are you willing to sacrifice now to help others? If you don't even think that way, then you don't have a hero's heart and would never use your gongfu to help others and will be happy to forget your teacher in old age.

Kung fu was never meant for small people. It is designed to be lost on them. This is why it takes ten years to test a student.

When I was in China an Australian guy came to Chengdu to learn kung fu. He demanded that I show him a form and give him the applications. I lied and said that I wasn't good enough to teach him. He asked who else would show him. I told him truthfully that no masters in Chengdu could teach him what he wanted to know. He declared that there was no good kung fu in Chengdu and left to shanghai. Good riddance. He wanted to show off and say that he learned kung fu in China.

Another Australian was good enough to let me know that if I could beat him up then I could be his Shifu. I told him that I would never teach him, but invited him outside to spar. He was too scared and backed down, in spite of my friendly smile and promise not to hurt him permanently.

I really could care less what these wastes of oxygen thought of my ability. They didn't deserve my time, they deserved to get ripped off by some wushu school. They will eventually get beaten up by some mma guy. Good.

Euro centric thinkers tend to want a full explanation before going on to the next motion. They will especially demand proof from those they don't respect. They wouldn't demand so much proof at an entry level class at Harvard, but if it comes from a non European system of knowledge, then it must be held in suspicion as primitive nonsesense.

To Chinese it just makes them think that the foreigner is arrogant and stupid. I am inclined to agree.

Asking on every motions comes off as abrasive, impatient, and lazy. Challenging and testing everything is expected..on your own time.

Figure it out and ask a detail question and you will get an answer for that piece of the puzzle. You have to put the puzzle together by yourself.

The road is there. If you want to practice that movement for hours every day and practice it outside of class you will eventually figure it out.

Ask intelligent questions and you will get quality answers.

Be a bigger person and you will be trusted with bigger information.

me and the teacher are cool,we get along well,he likes me and i like him. but yes westerners do want to known what they are learning now. lets be for real here. who has three years to learn a form before they know what it means? if it is a fighitng art,why can't you at least know what it means? but in the end he did explain to me, that in shaolin they do the form for three years before doing application to build strength inside and out,,,,,,. let us face it this waiting forever way of thinking has never been proved to work. if this is so superior where is the proof?

but anyway the teacher is cool and he explained that he will teach me after the form is done some application. but for an article on how they train applications,can't see how it is so rude and non chinese and arrogant to ask question on how they train. you can buy a dvd of top monks doing the shaoling pressure point and applications,so lests cut the whole grasshopper nonsense

in my personal opinion it all stems from the lies the government spreads. the government in china is always hiding information. no youtube no face book. everything is a way to hide, manipulate and keep the people weak and controllable.

[YouKnowWho]

Figure it out for yourselves people, stop begging sifu to hold your hand.

The problem is if you try to figure out all by yourself, you won't know what "guideline" to follow.

Let's take the "foot sweep" as example. It exists in many TCMA forms. The problem is, without teacher's help, it's very difficult to figure out the following all by yourself:

- Which angle to cut in?
- How to generate the sweeping force?
- What kind of weight distributation of your opponent's legs is the best time to sweep?
- How to remain balance after sweep?
- How to use your hand moves to cover your leg intention?
- Where are the proper contact points?
- What if your opponent escapes out of it?
- What if your opponent resists against your sweep?
- ...

It may take you a long time to figure out all these by yourself if you are lucky. Your teacher can explain all these to you within 30 minutes.

[SPJ]

my name is bond

james bond

Hey, moi 50 years of fan of 007 here.

will see "sky falling something".

:)

[-N-]

It's perfect to do to a challenger though. That was Brendan Lai's favor trick. He would said, "I will just punch you once. If you can block my punch, you win. Otherwise, you lose." When he explained the role, his punch moved slowely toward his opponent's stomach a couple times. When he finally delievered his punch, his punch was toward his opponent's face.

He gave away a free lesson in an important Praying Mantis principle, and the challenger may not even have realized it.

:)

[-N-]

Let's take the "foot sweep" as example. It exists in many TCMA forms. The problem is, without teacher's help, it's very difficult to figure out the following all by yourself:

- Which angle to cut in?
- How to generate the sweeping force?
- What kind of weight distributation of your opponent's legs is the best time to sweep?
- How to remain balance after sweep?
- How to use your hand moves to cover your leg intention?
- Where are the proper contact points?
- What if your opponent escapes out of it?
- What if your opponent resists against your sweep?
- ...

It may take you a long time to figure out all these by yourself if you are lucky. Your teacher can explain all these to you within 30 minutes.

I find that even after explaining for 30 minutes, week after week, the student still may not be able to do it right.

I don't worry about people stealing techniques. If they are able to do it just by watching or reading, they earned and deserved it.

Most of the time, you can't even give it away, no matter how hard you try.

Maybe they can do it after corrections. But next time, it's the same mistakes again.

We tell the students, "We gave you all our secrets on the first day of class." "How many ways can you invent to do it wrong?"

[wenshu]

It may take you a long time to figure out all these by yourself if you are lucky. Your teacher can explain all these to you within 30 minutes.

Cause every kid knows learning to ride a bike is as easy as having someone explain it to you.

[bawang]

the secret of kung fu techniques is there is no secret.


most real traditional techniques that are traceable back to ming dynasty are very basic. but people want fancy 5 hit combos, foearm bridging, complicated wrist qin na.

[YouKnowWho]

the secret of kung fu techniques is there is no secret.

For the foot sweep example, the simplest questions to ask are:

- When you move in and sweep your opponent's foot, should your body be moving, or stop moving when you sweep?
- Should you use your whole body force (body unification) to sweep, or should you just sweep with your leg (body isolation)?
- Should you sweep in 45 degree angle, 90 degree angle, 135 degree angle, or 180 degree angle?
- ...

The foot sweep "principle" can be mapped into more than 30 different foot sweep "techniques". It's very difficult to master it without a teacher.

[Minghequan]

Bawang wrote:

the secret of kung fu techniques is there is no secret.

most real traditional techniques that are traceable back to ming dynasty are very basic. but people want fancy 5 hit combos, foearm bridging, complicated wrist qin na.

Thank you Bawang for the above! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[sanjuro_ronin]

the secret of kung fu techniques is there is no secret.



I disagree in this regard:
There is a secret to making kung fu work, to taking theory and turning it into practice, to going from practioner to fighter to teacher to master.
There is a secret that all those "great ones" of the past had access to.
It was called FIGHTING and they did enough of it to "unlock" the secrets of their kung fu.
That is THE secret in kung fu.

[bawang]

I disagree in this regard:
There is a secret to making kung fu work, to taking theory and turning it into practice, to going from practioner to fighter to teacher to master.
There is a secret that all those "great ones" of the past had access to.
It was called FIGHTING and they did enough of it to "unlock" the secrets of their kung fu.
That is THE secret in kung fu.

no man. when you teach kung fu wrong, you can NEVER fight with it. ever.

[MightyB]

Hey man - I found the kung fu! It was over here hiding under this rock the whole time.

[ultimatekungfu]

Just my two cents.

1. Its aggravating when students want to know the application of movements in a form when they haven't learned the movement properly.
2. Most of the guys in the mainland (wushu types) don't know any fighting applications beyond a very shallow knowledge of some very basic chin na.
So both sides are right in a way. This is a very important issue in TCMA, IMO. Showing respect for traditional teaching methods vs. teachers taking advantage of this relationship and being lazy, egotistical, opportunistic ect. I imagine this tension has gone on since the beginning.

A few more thoughts, this guy has trained for 6 years. He should have a good concept of the basic movements. Its not like he's a beginner who needs to be tested for his character.

Another thought about Sanda, Sanda is a very good martial art for the ring or the street, and its on the rise I think. Second, you can find alot of the movement from your traditional forms in Sanda/ San Shou applications.

Traditional forms are an excellent way to train athleticism for fighting. Remember in the 80's when guys were training ballet for football. Wushu can be looked at in a similar way I think. In addition, training in forms is certainly more like fighting than ballet, some of the other methods people are doing to increase fight fitness/ athleticism.

One more thing about traditional forms especially for the Western student, learning these standardized forms of the North offers a connection with native Chinese who have learned the same forms and give you a chance to make new friends.

I guess my solution to all this is to keep studying hard, learn everything, boxing, grappling, muay thai, stick fighting, knife fighting, northern, southern styles, and deepen my background. Then you can see similarities in movements and add depth to your Kung Fu stuff. If you really love Kung Fu like I do you want to figure out how to build it up not always try to tear down. Granted, at times your faith and patience will be tested, but if you set your sites on improving kung fu for the past and coming generations you will find strength to persevere.


www.ultimatekungfu.com

[MightyB]

Good first post Ultimate, and welcome to the dog and pony show known as the Kung Fu Forum. :)


Just my two cents.

1. Its aggravating when students want to know the application of movements in a form when they haven't learned the movement properly.
2. Most of the guys in the mainland (wushu types) don't know any fighting applications beyond a very shallow knowledge of some very basic chin na.
So both sides are right in a way. This is a very important issue in TCMA, IMO. Showing respect for traditional teaching methods vs. teachers taking advantage of this relationship and being lazy, egotistical, opportunistic ect. I imagine this tension has gone on since the beginning.

A few more thoughts, this guy has trained for 6 years. He should have a good concept of the basic movements. Its not like he's a beginner who needs to be tested for his character.

Another thought about Sanda, Sanda is a very good martial art for the ring or the street, and its on the rise I think. Second, you can find alot of the movement from your traditional forms in Sanda/ San Shou applications.

Traditional forms are an excellent way to train athleticism for fighting. Remember in the 80's when guys were training ballet for football. Wushu can be looked at in a similar way I think. In addition, training in forms is certainly more like fighting than ballet, some of the other methods people are doing to increase fight fitness/ athleticism.

One more thing about traditional forms especially for the Western student, learning these standardized forms of the North offers a connection with native Chinese who have learned the same forms and give you a chance to make new friends.

I guess my solution to all this is to keep studying hard, learn everything, boxing, grappling, muay thai, stick fighting, knife fighting, northern, southern styles, and deepen my background. Then you can see similarities in movements and add depth to your Kung Fu stuff. If you really love Kung Fu like I do you want to figure out how to build it up not always try to tear down. Granted, at times your faith and patience will be tested, but if you set your sites on improving kung fu for the past and coming generations you will find strength to persevere.


www.ultimatekungfu.com

[sanjuro_ronin]

no man. when you teach kung fu wrong, you can NEVER fight with it. ever.

Fair enough.
When something is taught wrong there isn't much hope.
What I was trying to get at is simple:
What do all the great masters have in common (typically)? they all fought and they became great BECAUSE of the fighting.
They "unlocked the secrets" of their kung fu in the only way ANYONE ever can - by doing.
But doing what?
Simple again, doing what it ( kung fu) was designed for: fighting.

[David Jamieson]

Kung Fu is not lost because it fails to live up to someone's presupposition.

A person with Kung Fu can't give it to you, YOU have to build your own kung fu, so if it's lost, ever, it is only ever lost in you and you alone.

[Golden Arms]

I agree, for the most part Chinese Martial Arts ARE lost and unless something drastic changes, in a sorry state. Fortunately there are a few out there that still keep it real and they can be found if one is lucky enough or looks hard enough.

[ShaolinDan]

I think there's something to the OP. I've been in China two months now, and while I've seen some good kung fu practitioners, I haven't really seen any good classes--partner work just doesn't seem to be trained much here. Talked to an American martial artist who's been living here (Kunming) for 8 years--this guy owns a restaurant/bar, he knows everyone--and he said he's had the same problem, the best teachers he's found here are foreigners.
That said, I am in Yunnan, I'm sure it's different in other parts of China. Some posters here seem to have found good instruction in China...also, there's still plenty of good instructors in other parts of the world.

[Lebaufist]

I come from a time when fighting was not a separate or alien function to CMA. To this day I still can't quite wrap my head around it. I do not equate my practice to simple dance and mimicry. I don't spar much anymore as I'm getting a bit long in the tooth and recovery is slow. I still hit the bag and do all of the what I can for upkeep. But fighting is always in the back of mind. Not frozen man techniques.

I think the true change happened when tournaments started to do form and fighting events at the same time. Before, we would show up, do a open routine. Something fun. Multi person. Then we did empty hand , then weapons. Then at the end fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

When someone couldn't find a teacher to study, I usually suggest that person just to train "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years. After 3 years, he can add 1 or 2 kicks in front of his punches and 1 or 2 throws at the end of his punches. The secret of kung fu is how you train.

[xinyidizi]

I think there's something to the OP. I've been in China two months now, and while I've seen some good kung fu practitioners, I haven't really seen any good classes--partner work just doesn't seem to be trained much here. Talked to an American martial artist who's been living here (Kunming) for 8 years--this guy owns a restaurant/bar, he knows everyone--and he said he's had the same problem, the best teachers he's found here are foreigners.
That said, I am in Yunnan, I'm sure it's different in other parts of China. Some posters here seem to have found good instruction in China...also, there's still plenty of good instructors in other parts of the world.
Why Kunming? It's pretty far away from everywhere.

Also in my experience in China the few good martial artists who teach combat are very conservative about it. They usually have public classes where the the disciples and normal students both learn the forms and the foundation and there is a separate class for the few advanced disciples teaching them combat.

[MightyB]

...and there is a separate class for the few advanced disciples teaching them combat.

laap saap 垃圾

---


This is why kung fu is lost.

[xinyidizi]

laap saap

---


This is why kung fu is lost.

I'm not saying it is good. This is how it works here.

[No_Know]

I have always believed that the praying mantis 乱接(Luan Jie) form is a very important form in the PM system training. It trains body push/pull limbs. Oneday I visted a PM school in China. The teacher taught a lot of forms but the 乱接(Luan Jie) form. I asked that PM teacher why. He said, "You just don't teach 乱接(Luan Jie) to anybody." If he treated his own students as "anybody", what kind of hope do you have to learn from him?

That teacher also asked me how many PM forms do I teach to my students. I told him 3 forms only, 崩步(Beng Bu), 乱接(Luan Jie), 摘要(Zhai Yao). He then said, "How long will you be able to keep your students with just 3 forms?" I was speechless after that. Of course I didn't tell him that I can teach my students 400 different throws that they will need more than one life time to learn.

As to just anybody. Did you ever have something you treasured or an experience that you thought was full and purposeful and you shared it and someone with less insight said it's just a rainbow, a trick of light. They were technically correct. But They were incapable of appreciation, being too full of themselves for being Knowledgeable. Knowing stuff gives one an air of arrogance-which can be distasteful to people who earned and learned and appreciated.

Ex. [pet peeve] I heart [something]. Youngers saw it and gaining first-line facts found that that symbol was called, "heart," so now they act matter-of-fact. Oh I know that- That's a heart...as a consequence the shows include in the English language now, "I heart you." To the olders who understood the thing that a thing was might understand when I reveal the ancient teachings of the History of the thing that the youngers don't understand because they go too fast and understand incorrectly that they know all there is to know about a thing-ish...It's love. We used the symbol called, "heart," to represent Love. When you see a heart in the letter "I" the symbol "heart" and the word "you" it's saying, "I love you."

We got to think the point is the answer and learned the answers, but missing the point we become emptier people.Things don't make sense and seem to not have meaning and then things seem less worthwhile because there's less substance. So what's the most. Whaat's the best? I'll say that, do that and I'm as much as can be. Se x and Love so people have se x and people say they love you and that's supposed to be the greatest. So you have se x nd it's not so much or you try to have it all the time to prove things. You said you were in love but lost the relationship and said you fell out of love. Nnnnnnnoooooo! You called it Love more likely it was Lus t or te such you forced the name not knowing what to call it but wanting it to be the best. Love is eternal-ish.

But it Is there. There is more. You just don't deserve it 'cause you paid. 'Cause you are there some You've been there three years? Big Whuup!, there are so many Care-less people who'll hangout three years then pi ss on what they learn So that some might want to see your worth..not just I want an article then I don't care but I want to understand and pass-on this beauty to people of appreciation...[so i'll make a video and make people pay $20 each and some might appreciate my revealing all the formerly hard earned understandings.?. Nnnnnnooooo!]

Not to just anybody meant understand what the student is looking for and give them something. when they look like thy know there should be deeper to it or start to have understanding what they have guide those students and perhaps give them more give deeper what is there~.

No_Know

[David Jamieson]

The problem is if you try to figure out all by yourself, you won't know what "guideline" to follow.

Let's take the "foot sweep" as example. It exists in many TCMA forms. The problem is, without teacher's help, it's very difficult to figure out the following all by yourself:

- Which angle to cut in?
- How to generate the sweeping force?
- What kind of weight distributation of your opponent's legs is the best time to sweep?
- How to remain balance after sweep?
- How to use your hand moves to cover your leg intention?
- Where are the proper contact points?
- What if your opponent escapes out of it?
- What if your opponent resists against your sweep?
- ...

It may take you a long time to figure out all these by yourself if you are lucky. Your teacher can explain all these to you within 30 minutes.

That which we are taught we learn by doing. These things are learned by doing.
In many respects this is how you learn what the stuff inside the forms means and what it feels like when you are "doing" as intended. (Fighting and using the techniques)

[Syn7]

How many people here who train MA's have any sort of extensive street experience? I don't mean fist fights on drunken weekends within your circle, I mean real fights with real danger?

[YouKnowWho]

In many respects this is how you learn what the stuff inside the forms means ...

You can't learn foot sweep from solo form training because when you train solo, there is no such thing as timing, opportunity, and angle.

[ShaolinDan]

Why Kunming? It's pretty far away from everywhere.

Also in my experience in China the few good martial artists who teach combat are very conservative about it. They usually have public classes where the the disciples and normal students both learn the forms and the foundation and there is a separate class for the few advanced disciples teaching them combat.

The answer to why Kunming is here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63762

About combat instruction here: Getting applications hasn't been a problem, my previous training has allowed me to figure most of them out myself and when I have asked questions the teachers have had the answers. The problem for me so far is that while the teachers may seem to have done a lot of partner training, the classes they teach don't seem to have any...maybe it is an outside of class thing here. Anyway, tomorrow I have a training 'date' with another foreigner who the restaurant owner (from previous page) put me in touch with. See how that goes. If I can find training partners outside of class, I don't mind not having them during class.

[Syn7]

How many people here who train MA's have any sort of extensive street experience? I don't mean fist fights on drunken weekends within your circle, I mean real fights with real danger?

That many, huh!

[Golden Arms]

I have, I just think its kind of a dumb question to ask on a forum. "Street experience" is totally subjective, what one person considers assault another person may consider playing. I doubt there are that many fighters on the forums, scrapping regularly leads to different questions than most of the ones posted on here.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.

[Syn7]

I left it general on purpose. Cops, military, thugs, drunken frat boys, whatever. Experience is experience, and you can learn from that.

Picking fights has nothing to do with it. It was an amoral question.

Don't be sorry. Stay honest and we're all good, regardless of what you say. I have thick skin, nada worries, friend.

[Syn7]

Just to be clear, I wasn't asking so I can say "well if you don't find, you can't fight" or anything like that. Just waiting to see what people have to say then bring out the follow up questions. I just didn't wanna get ahead of myself. It seems you gotta go baby step by baby step around here if you want to ask anything specific, but covering a lot. Usually when I type a paragraph with ten questions, I get roundabout and selective answers. So I figured I would just wait and see who says they have done what.

I am interested to hear about tried and true techniques. Whether you are a j3rkoff thug, a cop, or just some cat that has red-lines that folks have crossed. I don't really care.

[Syn7]

Yes

drunk people

challenge matches

Thugs and thieves

people who deserved it


It changed the way I thought about real combat in that I took it more seriously in training than it was in real life. I listened to all this BS about how things are so serious and hardcore in real life and "nothing like kung fu training." Nonsense. It was for the most part really easy. It was only hard when I made it hard.

The only snags I had were from sparring too much MMA style. That had its good points, but it was also very bad. About ten years ago I had a scrap. I sized up my opponent and circled him. This allowed us even fear instead of attacking like a bursting dam. It was foolish to treat it like a sport fight. I ended up rolling in dirt and shards of something with some really strong drunk guy. It was night so I still have no idea if it was plastic, glass or wood. The mud, grass and hole beside the pavement was nothing like a mat. It was uneven and although I got an ankle lock, I realized that it could have been over much faster if I didn't believe the mma mythology.

Its easier than we make it, not harder. It has everything to do with mindset, alignment and good body movement.

No doubt...

What would you rather have done? Hard tactical? Just move in and finish it as quickly and efficiently as possible the moment the threat has been recognized? Or would you do a quick assessment first? Weapons check, anti swarm tactics? Were you confident it was gonna stay one on one empty hand?

[YouKnowWho]

I am interested to hear about tried and true techniques.

A guy tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl screamed for help. I went over, got the guy a "head lock". The guy let go the girl and screamed, "Please don't kill me." I didn't expect he could respond like that. I let go my head lock, the guy took off the oppposite direction away from the girl did. I stood there as if I was the bad guy. :(

[Syn7]

A guy tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl screamed for help. I went over, got the guy a "head lock". The guy let go the girl and screamed, "Please don't kill me." I didn't expect he could respond like that. I let go my head lock, the guy took off the oppposite direction away from the girl did. I stood there as if I was the bad guy. :(

Lol. People say weird stuff when they're scared, huh?

I saw one guy getting swung on by some kid and his response was "you can't do this, it's illegal!" I thought about stepping in, he seemed so defenseless. But he kinda deserved to get knocked around a little. He totally got on that kids case for nothing and invaded all sense of personal space. The kid finally had had enough. It was all quite entertaining.

Glad to see nobody got hurt. Did you not first try a verbal engagement or was it one of those time sensitive things? Was it a rape attempt or some disgruntled boyfriend, or what?

Many times I have seen a couple fighting and getting rough then when somebody steps in to help the "lady", the couple turns on the Samaritan and the nice guy gets knocked around for his trouble. Weird phenomenon, so common.

[Kellen Bassette]

Funny about the weird things people say, do....I was drilling some ground and pound defense tonight, I was in mount, only going about 50% but I caught my buddy square in the solar plexus, I guess he hadn't really experienced a hit that square there...he started freaking out and shaking, I asked if he was ok, he said no, then jumped up and said "Hold me! Hold me!" kept on shaking...when calmed down he just said it really scared him...never felt a punch that square on the solar plexus before...(he's from a grappling, not a striking background)...

As to street fights, haven't been in any since my early 20's. Then and in my teens ppl seemed to mess with me a lot, I'm a small guy...Punks and drunks.

Last two fights I got in both ended with one kick. One a roundhouse to the leg, collapsed his leg and he ran/hobbled away...the other a side kick to the ribs. After the dude collected himself he walked away without a word.

[Syn7]

He never got winded landing on his back too hard? That sh1t happened to me when I was a small child, quite often. I was in gymnastics and a lil too enthusiastic about flying than I should have been. In wrestling I felt it too, but by then I knew how not to land when I had a choice and was an accomplished tumbler.


The "hold me" thing is kind of weird. If I thought I was dying I don't think that's where I'd go with it. Dude must've been pretty shook. Have you considered that maybe you did more than just knocking the wind out of him? The convulsions are kinda weird.


I smoked salvia (or dmt or whatever) once, dude didn't really explain what was gonna happen and how fast it would happen, it took me off guard. I said something like "am I gonna die". I had never felt something that strong come on that fast, and I was like 16.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm sure he's been winded plenty of times...it was weird, I've seen tons of ppl dropped getting hit like that, but I never seen anyone respond that way before..I really felt like I didn't hit him that hard, and we had mma gloves on...but I know it was right on the solar plexus..kind of scared me for a minute...

[YouKnowWho]

Did you not first try a verbal engagement or was it one of those time sensitive things?
There was already another guy tried to have a verbal engagement with this guy. Since this guy just ignored the other guy, I didn't think I would have an chance by reasonable with this guy. If the guy got the girl into his car and drove away, there was nothing that I could do since my car was not with me at that moment. I needed to force him to let that gril go first. I didn't even know if he had any firearm in his pocket. at that moment, to attack was my best choice.

[ShaolinDan]

The answer to why Kunming is here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63762

About combat instruction here: Getting applications hasn't been a problem, my previous training has allowed me to figure most of them out myself and when I have asked questions the teachers have had the answers. The problem for me so far is that while the teachers may seem to have done a lot of partner training, the classes they teach don't seem to have any...maybe it is an outside of class thing here. Anyway, tomorrow I have a training 'date' with another foreigner who the restaurant owner (from previous page) put me in touch with. See how that goes. If I can find training partners outside of class, I don't mind not having them during class.

Training partner seems to be working out well, so it's all good now. :)

[Golden Arms]

In every other engagement after that I charged when they were trying to feel whether I was a threat. In their moment of questioning they feared what they didn't know. I didn't think of myself and instead put the focus on them. I trusted my traditional training and everything took care of itself.

My traditional training keeps me upright, mobile and fluid. It also teaches me to charge like a bursting dam, step into the empty spaces and consume the enemy with fear.

A small person can chase off a bull if she approach the right way.

When they are fleeing you can strike, but leave them hope so they don't get brave.

Everything later was traditional right down to the philosophy and meditation to rise through fear.

The biggest mistake I ever made was believing hype about "Street fighting" or "reality fighting." If you train realistically, you don't need to think about it.

Simple moves are all that is necessary. If you enter into the right spaces with footwork, relaxation and timing their confusion and panic causes them to defeat themselves.
Sounds about right to me other than the fact that you didn't mention luck as a factor. The confidence of the amateur is the envy of the professional.

[Kellen Bassette]

In every other engagement after that I charged when they were trying to feel whether I was a threat. In their moment of questioning they feared what they didn't know. I didn't think of myself and instead put the focus on them. I trusted my traditional training and everything took care of itself.

My traditional training keeps me upright, mobile and fluid. It also teaches me to charge like a bursting dam, step into the empty spaces and consume the enemy with fear.

A small person can chase off a bull if she approach the right way.

When they are fleeing you can strike, but leave them hope so they don't get brave.

Everything later was traditional right down to the philosophy and meditation to rise through fear.

The biggest mistake I ever made was believing hype about "Street fighting" or "reality fighting." If you train in a living system, your training will provide you with realistic training. It may not be what is popular, but it will work.

Simple moves are all that is necessary. If you enter into the right spaces with footwork, relaxation and timing their confusion and panic causes them to defeat themselves.

I know people in China who have never seen an MMA bout who can dislocate other people's knees with every step. They come from living systems and simply trained at they were taught. Most were taught as kids and they trained for much less time than we do, but have a much deeper skill set.

The tragedy in America is that people with dead systems practice fantasy religiously and people with living systems buy into the American hype and lose what is in their hands.


What do you mean by "living systems" and "dead systems".

[Kellen Bassette]

What systems would you consider dead?

[ginosifu]

shuaijiao freely teaches westerners because shuai jiao is not chinese marital arts. its mongolian wrestling. it has no chinese cultural background.

You are kinda right and kinda wrong here bawang. Chinese wrestling was influenced by Mongolian Boke / Shuai Jiao. Even though Mongolian wreslting is not inherently Chinese, the Chinese people emabraced it and mae it their own. They modified it and molded it to fit the Chinese people and it's culture.

Chinese Shuai Jiao of today may be very different then the Shuai Jiao of old. But it is still a Chinese Martial Art.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

You can't learn foot sweep from solo form training because when you train solo, there is no such thing as timing, opportunity, and angle.

I don't think I said that. I believe I was implying that the way you learn things is by doing them.

So, if you never spar or fight with others, I agree, it is highly unlikely you will ever learn to actually fight effectively in any way.

By practicing in the partner way, you learn what is in the forms by doing them in the pressure of actuality.

[bawang]

You are kinda right and kinda wrong here bawang. Chinese wrestling was influenced by Mongolian Boke / Shuai Jiao. Even though Mongolian wreslting is not inherently Chinese, the Chinese people emabraced it and mae it their own. They modified it and molded it to fit the Chinese people and it's culture.



no, chinese were not allowed to learn wrestling until 1911.

[YouKnowWho]

no, chinese were not allowed to learn wrestling until 1911.

Even today, SC is still only popular within the Chinese muslim community. A student of mine went to Baoding and talk to many Chinese Han people, they don't even know what SC is.

In China, SC is considered as "minority race self-defense skill".

[andyhaas]

O
So today i wanted to interview my teacher for an idea I have for an article. The applications from the form Da Hong Quan. Seems simple enough right? It is like pulling teeth trying to get any application or partner work from the teachers here. And not just me. My training partner, is from the uk,we meet in the park once a week to do Shuai Jiao and work some applications and partner drills. He is having the same experience from the guy teaching him Xing Yi. ... .I know this all stems from the cultural revolutions and the chinese goverment"doesn't want brothers fighting brothers'brain washing bull****. But they have destroyed the cutlure of kung fu, what a pitty.

I know what you mean. It was the same thing with my baguazhang teacher, who was from the PRC but in Seattle. Finally after years he taught me a lot of partner forms, but there was nobody except him to practice with unless I taught other people, and he wasn't applications oriented, and he would have expected payment.

There's long list of reasons they probably don't teach applications.

a) Chinese. If you're not Chinese, they don't like to share their culture with you.
b) Character. They want to see your character -- they don't want you to start fights or use it for fighting by starting fights.
c) Liability. If you use it to fight, they might get sued.
d) Other students. If they teach your applications right away, you might practice them with other students, without paying for lessons, or something like that.
e) Forms work. If they taught applications right away, a lot of people probably wouldn't learn a ton of forms from them.
f) PRC - under the Communists it was against the rules to do applications, so a lot of them probably don't know the applications. But with the Chinese (and Eastern) culture of saving face, they'd probably never admit they didn't know the applications, so it's a sticky issue.

[MightyB]

a real TCMA master can float through the air and **** bullets.

[ginosifu]

no, chinese were not allowed to learn wrestling until 1911.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Mine is a bit different.

ginosifu

[bawang]

sounds like you cant accept you learned mongolian barbarian wrestling.

[xinyidizi]

I know what you mean. It was the same thing with my baguazhang teacher, who was from the PRC but in Seattle. Finally after years he taught me a lot of partner forms, but there was nobody except him to practice with unless I taught other people, and he wasn't applications oriented, and he would have expected payment.

There's long list of reasons they probably don't teach applications.

a) Chinese. If you're not Chinese, they don't like to share their culture with you.
b) Character. They want to see your character -- they don't want you to start fights or use it for fighting by starting fights.
c) Liability. If you use it to fight, they might get sued.
d) Other students. If they teach your applications right away, you might practice them with other students, without paying for lessons, or something like that.
e) Forms work. If they taught applications right away, a lot of people probably wouldn't learn a ton of forms from them.
f) PRC - under the Communists it was against the rules to do applications, so a lot of them probably don't know the applications. But with the Chinese (and Eastern) culture of saving face, they'd probably never admit they didn't know the applications, so it's a sticky issue.

They might be true to some extent but the most important reason is that sometimes it's impossible to teach applications to the students who are not ready yet. In xinyi the applications are pretty clear however the beginners won't be able to imitate them even if you show it to them a hundred times. On the other hand application comes naturally to a student who has built up his basic skills and there won't be much explanation needed. Moreover the applications are alive and can easily transform into each other and this is how they should be taught but there is no way the beginners can make sense of it.

Sometimes the teachers are not good and don't know much about fighting but sometimes the students are lazy and instead of working hard on building their basic skills want to blame everything on their teacher.

[ginosifu]

sounds like you cant accept you learned mongolian barbarian wrestling.

You speak the exact same nonsense every other modern Chinese person says that has NOT learned older kung fu. You guys believe the modern crap history that your government feeds you. Many modern Chinese that I have spoken to, state their is no Chinese SC, only Chin Na Shou 擒 拿 拳.

Every country has some kind of wrestling. Wrestling is fundamental and close to nature. Wrestling in China thousands of years ago may have been more like the clip you showed of the folk wrestling. (nice clip by the way). However, as time goes on, things change and so did the flavor of the Chinese wrestling.

300 years ago SC or Chinese wrestling was not the same as it is today. If you go into Beijing right now you will find many modern SC schools teaching what is popular today. You can tell me all you want that real Chinese don't teach to us round eye..... WHATEVERRRRRR.

ginosifu

[bawang]

300 years ago SC or Chinese wrestling was not the same as it is today.

300 years ago chinese wrestling is exactly the same as it is today. its called shaanxi wrestling.

in modern sense, shuai jiao is chinese wrestling because republican government in 1920s said so. in traditional sense, buku has nothing to do with chinese martial arts.

[bawang]

its not that shuai jiao has non chinese influence. its that no chinese had ever been allowed to train or watch manchu buku until 1911. then republic government in 1920s renamed it shuai jiao.

chinese were forbidden by LAW from wrestling

[wiz cool c]

f) PRC - under the Communists it was against the rules to do applications, so a lot of them probably don't know the applications. But with the Chinese (and Eastern) culture of saving face, they'd probably never admit they didn't know the applications, so it's a sticky issue.

i think this is the main reason,i also believe strongly that the teachers have a bit of a fear that they might be challenged by their student,specially foreigners like myself

[MysteriousPower]

Uygurs, Kazakh and Mongols have more developed grappling. They are good at wrestling because they do it every day, not just for sport, to wrangle sheep. They are ranchers.

Traditional Chinese martial arts have a different way of thinking than shuai chiao. Later many Chinese arts like 8 step mantis incorporated shuai chiao, but actually it was redundant. The key is that shuai chiao has superior training and continuations for body controls. Sure, the concepts are already there, but the specific training from shuai chiao makes people more effective at grappling.

Can you elaborate on that second paragraph? What does chimes wrestling offer in terms of superior(your words, not mine) training methods and why does it make you a better grappler? Would not any grappling system make you a better grappler?

[wenshu]

sounds like you cant accept you learned mongolian barbarian wrestling.

Mongol, Chinese, Manchu, who cares? It's all the same. http://www.goiclan.eu/forum/images/smilies/trollface.jpg

You don't make the butsecks with unwilling partners cause it's Chinese, you do it cause it's fun.

I'm not Chinese, I don't give a **** about blindly adhering to notions of Chinese racial purity (a notion which represent weakness in the first place). Especially when it comes to the butsecks.

[bawang]

Mongol, Chinese, Manchu, who cares? It's all the same. http://www.goiclan.eu/forum/images/smilies/trollface.jpg

You don't make the butsecks with unwilling partners cause it's Chinese, you do it cause it's fun.

I'm not Chinese, I don't give a **** about blindly adhering to notions of Chinese racial purity (a notion which represent weakness in the first place). Especially when it comes to the butsecks.

does that mean you will let us have tibet

[ginosifu]

300 years ago chinese wrestling is exactly the same as it is today. its called shaanxi wrestling.

in modern sense, shuai jiao is chinese wrestling because republican government in 1920s said so. in traditional sense, buku has nothing to do with chinese martial arts.


its not that shuai jiao has non chinese influence. its that no chinese had ever been allowed to train or watch manchu buku until 1911. then republic government in 1920s renamed it shuai jiao.

chinese were forbidden by LAW from wrestling

I do Bao Ding / 保 定 Shuai Jiao. Bao Ding Shuai Jiao's history goes back before 1911. Bao Ding Shuai Jiao proves you wrong just because the style is different than ShaanXi wrestling. It has more throws like mongoilian style but still conforms to Chinese wrestling.

ginosifu

[bawang]

baoding buku comes from 2 mongol brothers who taught it to muslim dongans.

[Faruq]

I know people in China who have never seen an MMA bout who can dislocate other people's knees with every step. They come from living systems and simply trained at they were taught. Most were taught as kids and they trained for much less time than we do, but have a much deeper skill set.

The tragedy in America is that people with dead systems practice fantasy religiously and people with living systems buy into the American hype and lose what is in their hands.

What is this, knee dislocation? With kicks to the other guy's knee? This is really interesting. What is this kind of training called. Was it just some self defense course they had in grammar school, or did like a uncle who was also a shifu just happen to teach the 5 or 6 really good techniques over like a year period when they were kids and they just always kept those techniques in practice? Man, I gotta find a way to get outta the U.S. every so often so I can get a more realistic look at the world, lol.

[YouKnowWho]

Traditional Chinese martial arts have a different way of thinking than shuai chiao.

This statement is absolute true. TCMA doesn't try to build technique one at a time like SC does (such as single leg, hip throw, ...). They try to develop many techniques at the same time.

[YouKnowWho]

What is this, knee dislocation? With kicks to the other guy's knee? This is really interesting. What is this kind of training called.

"Shin bite" will be a good example for this. If you train with partner back and forth, your leg can sense the correct angle, pressure, footwork, ... in very little time.

[Faruq]

Interesting answers. Thanks, guys. Too many possible legal ramifications to learning bone setting in the U.S. I guess, lol. Oh well... But based on Andy Miles' description, everyone would probably know how to counter the knee dislocation kicks as well then, right?

[Kellen Bassette]

sounds like you cant accept you learned mongolian barbarian wrestling.

Is there any historical proof that Shuai Jiao came from Mongolian folk wrestling?

It makes sense that there would be cross pollination in Inner Mongolia/North China and many Asian M.A. trace back to common ancestors...but...the two arts do not look much alike as they exist now. Not even superficially.

It seems like it would be as difficult to confuse Mongolian Wrestling with Shuai Jiao, as it would to confuse Long Fist with Tae Kwon Do.

You don't consider them different arts?

[bawang]

silence, woman.

[Lucas]

Long Kwon Fist Do?

[Kellen Bassette]

silence, woman.

Hey I'm a big fan of the Mongol Empire...I'm not attacking your position, I'm asking how you arrived at it. Is there more to why you hold this opinion, or are you being contrary for the sake of it?

[MysteriousPower]

Interesting answers. Thanks, guys. Too many possible legal ramifications to learning bone setting in the U.S. I guess, lol. Oh well... But based on Andy Miles' description, everyone would probably know how to counter the knee dislocation kicks as well then, right?

Are you guys really trying to have a serious discussion? Nobody is dislocating anyone's knee unless he just stands there or it happens by accident. You cannot dislocate my knee with shin biting because I will not let you.

[bawang]

Hey I'm a big fan of the Mongol Empire...I'm not attacking your position, I'm asking how you arrived at it. Is there more to why you hold this opinion, or are you being contrary for the sake of it?

this is well known fact from history.

[Kellen Bassette]

this is well known fact from history.

It's also well known that Jiu Jitsu, Karate and Tae Kwon Do originate from CMA, if you follow the history back far enough. But no one argues that they are the same art.

[bawang]

It's also well known that Jiu Jitsu, Karate and Tae Kwon Do originate from CMA, if you follow the history back far enough. But no one argues that they are the same art.

r u sexy woman wit the yellow hairs? i only explain martial knowledge to sexy womans wit the yellow hairs.

[Kellen Bassette]

No Bawang I'm an unreasonably handsome man and the order of things is white man/Asian girl, not Asian man/white girl...unless your Cung Le....

[Lucas]

No Bawang I'm an unreasonably handsome man and the order of things is white man/Asian girl, not Asian man/white girl...unless your Cung Le....

or bruce lee

[bawang]

then why u have name of woman? u trick me

hey guys hes a PHONY

[Kellen Bassette]

or bruce lee

Good call...

[bawang]

my answer to ur question is no han chinese was allowed to participiate and watch any form of wrestling, until 1911.

[Kellen Bassette]

my answer to ur question is no han chinese was allowed to participiate and watch any form of wrestling, until 1911.

Then I would assume you don't buy the Shuai Jiao is 3000 to 5000 years old story...but do you consider modern SJ and modern Mongolian Wrestling to be different arts?

[bawang]

Then I would assume you don't buy the Shuai Jiao is 3000 to 5000 years old story...but do you consider modern SJ and modern Mongolian Wrestling to be different arts?

i dont know. i dont train mongolian wrestling. i dont care either. they have nothing to do with chinese martial arts.

[Kellen Bassette]

Also, being as I don't know much Chinese history...how long was that law in effect? Couldn't have dated back to the countries beginning; and just about every culture did some form of wrestling...do you know when the ban was first enacted?

[Kellen Bassette]

i dont know. i dont train mongolian wrestling.

Fair enough...

[bawang]

Also, being as I don't know much Chinese history...how long was that law in effect? Couldn't have dated back to the countries beginning; and just about every culture did some form of wrestling...do you know when the ban was first enacted?

mongols banned it in 1200s to 1300s then manchus banned it from 1700s to 1911.

[Syn7]

my answer to ur question is no han chinese was allowed to participiate and watch any form of wrestling, until 1911.

So do you think that forced it underground and was a closed door thing, or do you think everyone just followed that rule? China has a long history of going against the state and keeping quiet about it. Instead of protesting and lining up to be slaughtered by the state, they just shut up about it and keep it in the fam. No?

[bawang]

So do you think that forced it underground and was a closed door thing, or do you think everyone just followed that rule? China has a long history of going against the state and keeping quiet about it. Instead of protesting and lining up to be slaughtered by the state, they just shut up about it and keep it in the fam. No?

shaanxi villlages preserved chinese wrestling by wrestling at night.

but when the government lifted the marital art ban in 1850s chinese wrestling never got popular again, because chinese boxing took on a mystical and performance oriented element.

[Syn7]

I guess people were so used to watching performances they forgot what real fighting actually looks like.

It's ironic, like in the US is such a huge wrestling country, but when combined with standup, they still just wanna see somebody get punched out and boo when there is high level technical grappling unless it's continuously kinetic. And even then, they only tolerate it for a short time.

[Kellen Bassette]

I wonder if anyone is teaching the Shanxxi style wrestling outside of China...

[wiz cool c]

beijing shuai jiao is hard core, i did it for three. the guys i trained with live at the school and train 6 days a week 4 hours a day. they do lots of strength training traditional and modern. they spar all out regularly. compete regularly and are straight up bad ass. i already had a black belt in traditional jujitsu and a green belt in judo,and the guys even 25 pounds lighter then me would easily toss me around. so anyone doubting the effectiveness of beijing shuai jiao needs to go train for themselves before typing too much.

[MysteriousPower]

beijing shuai jiao is hard core, i did it for three. the guys i trained with live at the school and train 6 days a week 4 hours a day. they do lots of strength training traditional and modern. they spar all out regularly. compete regularly and are straight up bad ass. i already had a black belt in traditional jujitsu and a green belt in judo,and the guys even 25 pounds lighter then me would easily toss me around. so anyone doubting the effectiveness of beijing shuai jiao needs to go train for themselves before typing too much.

I can see why they beat you so badly. A black belt in traditional jujitsu is no more helpful against seasoned athletes than a black belt in knitting. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

mongols banned it in 1200s to 1300s then manchus banned it from 1700s to 1911.

That's because wrestling is gay.

[MysteriousPower]

That's because wrestling is gay.

Oh thstop it!(as I twirl my shirt in a knot to show off my sexy belly while I wrestle)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh thstop it!(as I twirl my shirt in a knot to show off my sexy belly while I wrestle)

Watch it, or I'll give you such a pinch !

[MysteriousPower]

Watch it, or I'll give you such a pinch !

Joint locks are not allowed!

[wiz cool c]

I can see why they beat you so badly. A black belt in traditional jujitsu is no more helpful against seasoned athletes than a black belt in knitting. :)



you got a point there, but i have done judo,bjj and sombo too. but they are hard core athletes, those shuai jiao in beijing. one of the guys that trained there, and was also a good friend and coach of mine even went on to be a mma champ[yao hung gong]. the organization is called Legeneds i beleive in hong Kong and there was an article about him on this website [the people's champ]

[bawang]

you got a point there,

shouldve stopped right here

[Lucas]

you got a point there, but i have done judo,bjj and sombo too. but they are hard core athletes, those shuai jiao in beijing. one of the guys that trained there, and was also a good friend and coach of mine even went on to be a mma champ[yao hung gong]. the organization is called Legeneds i beleive in hong Kong and there was an article about him on this website [the people's champ]

I watched his fights. he is indeed a bad ass

[YouKnowWho]

I wonder if anyone is teaching the Shanxxi style wrestling outside of China...
In this clip, the clallenger was a Shanxi style SC guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEMMYwh1ryo

[Lucas]

what movie is that?

[YouKnowWho]

what movie is that?

跤王 Jiao Wang

http://www.youku.com/show_page/id_zcbfe54fa962411de83b1.html

[Lucas]

跤王 Jiao Wang

http://www.youku.com/show_page/id_zcbfe54fa962411de83b1.html

Thanks. :D

[bawang]

comparison between hebei and shanxi wrestling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFfu6-RWSxA

[YouKnowWho]

There are a lot of fun in wrestling that you just can't get from your striking art training. You can wrestle 15 rounds and don't have to worry about getting hurt.

Sometime, it's not that easy to find someone to wrestle with. Here is an E-mail that I got from one of my students.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will most likely be hanging out at a big MMA gym that I know some people from. MMA guys love to wrestle/spar and train hard, so I enjoy working out with them very much. Plus I don't have to reveal anything to them about my tricks or style. I usually have a very different style than most MMA/BJJ guys, so it is good for me. The gym I am thinking about has some outstanding wrestlers, so that is a huge deal for me.

[Lucas]

dont believe bawang, he loves mongolia.

here is rare footage of me and bawang wrestling. he has the blue underoos and i have the pink ones. he always makes me wear the pink ones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFpFW8kHCdo&feature=relmfu

[Kellen Bassette]

comparison between hebei and shanxi wrestling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFfu6-RWSxA

Yeah I checked this clip when were talking about it last night, it's the only one that came up as "Shanxxi Wrestling" in a quick You Tube search....

[bawang]

Yeah I checked this clip when were talking about it last night, it's the only one that came up as "Shanxxi Wrestling" in a quick You Tube search....

video.google.com 挠羊赛

[bawang]

挠羊赛 (http://www.google.ca/search?tbm=vid&hl=en-CA&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=948&q=%E6%8C%A0%E7%BE%8A%E8%B5%9B&gbv=2&oq=%E6%8C%A0%E7%BE%8A%E8%B5%9B&gs_l=video-hp.3...3357.3357.0.5295.1.1.0.0.0.0.69.69.1.1.0... 0.0...1ac.1.ylB07rzA8Bo)


voila! linkage!

what is this foul magic

[Kellen Bassette]

So this is why China won't allow You Tube or Facebook, to keep me away from their wrestling secrets! Thanks for the clips Bawang; and for making it easy David!

[MightyB]

Found it, oh sh*t, No wait, darnit- lost the kung fu again.

[wiz cool c]

I watched his fights. he is indeed a bad ass


yeah thanks man, yao is a f@%king awesome guy. one of my best friends in china. He weighs about 140 pounds and no joke has the strength of a 200 pounder. the e magazine here had a great interview with him [the people's champ] i think was the name of the article. i also wrote an article with him in it called [shuai jiao mma connection] in sep 2010 kung fu tai chi issue