The TCMA is more than just fighting

[YouKnowWho]

We have heard this saying from different people many times in this forum. Of course we can use TCMA to:

- improve health. But we can run, walk, swim, lift weight, ...
- achieve self-cultivation. But we can go to church, temple, bible study, ...
- have fun. But we can play tennis, golf, make love, ...
- understand art. But we can dance, paint, play piano, ...
- ...

If "combat" is not important to you then why do you want to train "hammer fist", "upper cut", "foot sweep", "hip throw", "wrist lock", ... What's the reason that you spend 2 hours infront of your heavy bag daily but you don't care about "combat"? Do 2 men drills and equipment training have any meaning for those who don't care about fighting? Is "solo drill/form" the only thing that you train if "combat" is not on your priority list? Will Fajin (power generation) be needed if "health" is your main goal?

What's your though?

[sanjuro_ronin]

We have heard this saying from different people many times in this forum. Of course we can use TCMA to:

- improve health. But we can run, walk, swim, lift weight, ...
- achieve self-cultivation. But we can go to church, temple, ...
- have fun. But we can play tennis, golf, ...
- understand art. But we can dance, paint, play piano, ...
- ...

If "combat" is not important to you then why do you want to train "hammer fist", "foot sweep", "hip throw", "wrist lock", ... What's the reason that you spend 2 hours infront of your heavy bag daily but you don't care about "combat"?

What's your though?

I never got into ANY MA for "health reasons" or any other reason other than to fight better.
That you can get MORE from TCMA than fighting is a PLUS, the icing on the cake if you will. It is NOT the cake.

I don't get how learning how to punch someone in the face and knock them out, how learning how to breaks bones and crack ribs and choke someone unconscious or learning how to hurt someone real bad = fun, health and spiritual cultivation.
:confused:

[YouKnowWho]

Why do we train to

- punch on heavy bag,
- kick on banana tree,
- bite shin bone into a small tree,
- roll stick along shin bone,
- ...

if we don't intend to hurt people? Those training such as "iron palm" will have no "health" benefit IMO.

- "Combat" is to hurt others.
- "Health" is to benefit ourselves.

If "health" is the only concern, there are a lot of TCMA training that's not good for "health". Is punching on the heavy bag good for health? I don't think so. So why train TCMA for health?

[MightyB]

I don't get how learning how to punch someone in the face and knock them out, how learning how to breaks bones and crack ribs and choke someone unconscious or learning how to hurt someone real bad = fun, health and spiritual cultivation.
:confused:

hmmmmmm... let me answer that with this image.

http://i.cocoperez.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/zooey-deschanel-s-and-m-outfit-the-new-girl__oPt.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do we train

- iron palm,
- heavy bag punching,
- banana tree kicking,
- bite shin bone into a small tree,
- roll stick along shin bone,
- ...

if we don't intend to hurt people? Those training will have no "health" benefit IMO.

In all fairness, outside of bag work, not everyone does the other stuff and bag work has great cardio and muscle toning properties.

I think that the reason people say that stuff is this:
Fighting hurts and not everyone is "built" for fighting, most people are basically sheep and pansies.
The don't like fighting BUT they still like to "role play" being "martial artists".

[MightyB]

In all fairness, outside of bag work, not everyone does the other stuff and bag work has great cardio and muscle toning properties.

I think that the reason people say that stuff is this:
Fighting hurts and not everyone is "built" for fighting, most people are basically sheep and pansies.
The don't like fighting BUT they still like to "role play" being "martial artists".

Truisms brought to you by Sanjuro

[sanjuro_ronin]

hmmmmmm... let me answer that with this image.

http://i.cocoperez.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/zooey-deschanel-s-and-m-outfit-the-new-girl__oPt.jpg

Some people pay good money for that too, so MA and S&M sessions cater to the same people.

[MightyB]

I have a manic / depressive like relationship with TCMA

There's times when I think - F*ck, I wasted a lot of time learning something that isn't applicable in real situations... And then there's times of holy sh*t this stuff works!

---

I think it's now time to quote my older brother who's very wise. He said...

Does it matter if you have the biggest c0ck in the county if you're not f**king anybody with it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a manic / depressive like relationship with TCMA

There's times when I think - F*ck, I wasted a lot of time learning something that isn't applicable in real situations... And then there's times of holy sh*t this stuff works!

---

I think it's now time to quote my older brother who's very wise. He said...

Does it matter if you have the biggest c0ck in the county if you're not f**king anybody with it?

Much wisdom in that.
And yes, a big **** is a big **** regardless of what you do with it.
as the old proverb goes:

When things look bad
I remember I have a really big ****
And things seems much better.

[YouKnowWho]

If you have developed an excellent "foot sweep" skill, but you have never used it on anybody in your lifetime. The day when you die, what will be in your mind at that moment? Accomplished? Wasted?

[ginosifu]

We have heard this saying from different people many times in this forum. Of course we can use TCMA to:

- improve health. But we can run, walk, swim, lift weight, ...
- achieve self-cultivation. But we can go to church, temple, bible study, ...
- have fun. But we can play tennis, golf, make love, ...
- understand art. But we can dance, paint, play piano, ...
- ...

If "combat" is not important to you then why do you want to train "hammer fist", "upper cut", "foot sweep", "hip throw", "wrist lock", ... What's the reason that you spend 2 hours infront of your heavy bag daily but you don't care about "combat"? Do 2 men drills and equipment training have any meaning for those who don't care about fighting? Is "solo drill/form" the only thing that you train if "combat" is not on your priority list? Will Fajin (power generation) be needed if "health" is your main goal?

What's your though?

John:

You have the right atitude. Martial Arts means fighting. I think they should get rid of the "ART" and just make it "Martial Science" or the "Science of Fighting"

On the other side of the coin. People who created, trained and practiced martial arts over the centuries have had times of peace and tranquilty. Where martial arts are not needed as a daily part of life, they decided to pursue it as a recreation or a spiritual endeaver.

When civil breaks out, the fighters will train the "Science of Fighting" because this is a neccessity to survive. John, you are one of those fighters.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you have developed an excellent "foot sweep" skill, but you have never used it on anybody in your lifetime. The day when you die, what will be in your mind at that moment? Acomplished? Wasted?

There are a few things that I have developed that I hope I never use on anyone, LOL !
I don't see going though life doing something you enjoy, for whatever reason, and thinking, "was it worth it"?

[Bacon]

Allow me to quote from a member on another forum:


"The primary purpose of martial arts is always combative proficiency. Anything else is an aid to or result of the training for that primary purpose."
Sketco

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see going though life doing something you enjoy, for whatever reason, and thinking, "was it worth it"?

You are right. As long as we have fun. That's all it matters. If I can't use my head lock to squeeze someone's skull, I still have fun to use it to squeeze watermelon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are right. As long as we have fun. That's all it matters. If I can't use my head lock to squeeze someone's skull, I still have fun to use it to squeeze watermelon.

For you John:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM17URoyKbk

[MightyB]

If you have developed an excellent "foot sweep" skill, but you have never used it on anybody in your lifetime. The day when you die, what will be in your mind at that moment? Accomplished? Wasted?

This is the beauty of martial sports like Judo, Shuai Jiao, Sambo, and BJJ. You get to not only train, but you get to use. That's what I personally enjoy about martial arts.

[YouKnowWho]

For you John:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM17URoyKbk

Not quite the same but similiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjTHnBPJtxI

[taai gihk yahn]

why do you all hate on the watermelon?:(:(:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

why do you all hate on the watermelon?:(:(:(

Watermelons, like chestnuts, are LAZY !!
http://www.videogameobsession.com/personal/drevil/drevilpic1.jpg

Dr. Evil's father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner
from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery.
His mother was a 15 year old French prostitute named Chloe with
webbed feet. His father would womanize, he would drink, he would
make outrageous claims, like he invented the question mark.
Sometimes, he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy - the sort of
general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane
lament. Childhood was typical: summers in Rangoon, luge
lessons. In the spring, He'd make meat helmets. When he was
insolent, He was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds.
Pretty standard, really.

[MightyB]

why do you all hate on the watermelon?:(:(:(

because if left to go wild, they always ALWAYS go evil!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-28aUhFcp_kU/TrNoVqEEQ6I/AAAAAAAAASE/woC6HjEZ1js/s1600/evil+watermelon.JPG

[Subitai]

Guess I have to be the one looking for a Bone inside an Egg again????

I can't believe all combat hype i'm reading....and not the majority of people feel the way some of you guys do.

Too many factors to just SUM up TCMA training into just "One Sphere" of fighting.

All you guys must have chips on your shoulders and are Forever ready to kick someones a$$. So all you combat loving guys fight 24/7.... I don't believe it.

Everyones different:
Up till my 20's yes, I thought allot about combat.

Through my 30's Life goes on and family and I focus more on my kids. it's only natural. But I never stop training.

Now in my early 40's I focus on improving my self and yes teaching too.

You cannot teach a person to be a fighter or like combat...it's in a persons' nature or NOT.

My personality is always, If someone steps in my face and gives me sh!t, YEAH THEN, I'm ready to kick his A$$. But to say that the bulk of training should be comsumed by a desire for combat is nonsense.

I consider myself in really good shape, I can fight now better and smarter then I ever could. I have no significan't injuries...but I don't go looking for trouble in this part of my life. Yes I do like combat, but only because it's my personality.

There is nothing wrong that I also enjoy my Martial / Arts for other reasons...OTHER than just the combat aspect. There is nothing wrong if I want to do it also for the reasons YouKnowWho listed. So what if I also want to improve health or that I do for enjoyment? Mabe I like it.

It's like saying you can only like ONE type of music....BULL Sh!T, if it makes you happy and do it...so be it.

YouKnowWho... every thing is black and white with you dude, you have to learn "Shades of Grey" Man.

[ginosifu]

My personality is always, If someone steps in my face and gives me sh!t, YEAH THEN, I'm ready to kick his A$$. But to say that the bulk of training should be comsumed by a desire for combat is nonsense.

"O"

What was the original reason for the creation of any Martial Arts in the beginning of time?

The answer is SELF PRESERVATION.

I do not go around picking fights nor would I enjoy getting into any fights.... at all. But the real reason I started training in martial arts is cuz I saw Quai Chan Caine kick a$$ back in the 70's as a kid.

Not cuz I enjoyed the training.

Not cuz I wanted to become healthier

Not cuz I wanted to teach it some day.

Cuz I wanted to learn how to defend myself like that character did on TV.

Now, I enjoy teaching, I enjoy Qi Gong and getting healthy but the true intent of my training is still combative. I still like to roll around on the matt. I still like to spar. I still enjoy drilling with my kung fu brothers here.

Yes, you can enjoyment from Martial arts other than fighting / combat. However, looking at the original nature of kung fu..... what is it really supposed to be?

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

What was the original reason for the creation of any Martial Arts in the beginning of time?
Through the ancient history, men

- first fight against nature,
- later on fight against animal,
- finally fight against other men.

This is the origin of TCMA. It's killed or not to be killed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF3mjfL7NpU

[Subitai]

To Each his own man...

What was the original purpose of Archery? Let me guess, FOOD? or Protection or War... right?

Why should I practice it now in my yard (which I do shoot long bow)
... if MAJORITY of the time, I don't kill things to eat? Or Protect myself or make war on my fellow man?

Because I enjoy the challenge and the concentration it brings me. Nobody can convince me that it's a waist of time.

Your too rigid Gino... Sure lots of things have an original purpose but they evolve...just like our culture and technology.

So I say, who cares about the original intent of it...what matters to me is YES even though I like fighting, I also believe that TCMA is more than just fighting.

Sue me. :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

you have to learn "Shades of Grey" ...

When you throw your opponent over your head, it's good for your health. It's not good for your opponent's health. Where is the grey area?

[RenDaHai]

Of course we can use TCMA to:

- improve health. But we can run, walk, swim, lift weight, ...
- achieve self-cultivation. But we can go to church, temple, bible study, ...
- have fun. But we can play tennis, golf, make love, ...
- understand art. But we can dance, paint, play piano, ...
- ...
What's your though?

But..... With MA you get all those things at the same time...making it awesome. Why do people build models? Collect stamps? Do anything?



I don't get how learning how to punch someone in the face and knock them out, how learning how to breaks bones and crack ribs and choke someone unconscious or learning how to hurt someone real bad = fun, health and spiritual cultivation.

Spiritual Cultivation is about confronting all sides of your human nature. Violence is a gigantic part, and one that most people lock away. Confronting it through MA allows one to absorb it without being consumed by it.




I think that the reason people say that stuff is this:
Fighting hurts and not everyone is "built" for fighting, most people are basically sheep and pansies.
The don't like fighting BUT they still like to "role play" being "martial artists".

No, no-one likes fighting. It does hurt. YOu find the people who say they like fighting actually don't like fighting, they like beating someone up. Turn it around on them and they change their tune too. It is not a fight when you beat on someone who barely hits back. It is an assault and people who enjoy that are in prison or on their way there. A fight is when you have to struggle to conquer. People who boast about 'never losing' ….Well, just sounds to me like they never had a fight, just bullied some people. Wushu does not mean Martial Arts even, it is Lit. 'Art of stopping violence'.

[Lucas]

i do think i remember reading in a few sources that the oldest translation of wushu is the art of resisting the spear. which would make sense, seeing as how the spear is pretty much the mother of all weapons.

[bawang]

What's your though?

culture and tradition


i do think i remember reading in a few sources that the oldest translation of wushu is the art of resisting the spear. which would make sense, seeing as how the spear is pretty much the mother of all weapons.

wu means using the spear to stop resistance.

[RenDaHai]

culture and tradition

wu means using the dagger axe to stop a conflict. its a pictogram from stone age.

I don't think it means using a 'Ge' to stop conflict, in the pictogram the 'Ge' is the conflict. It just means to stop conflict.

'Ge' is a stick with a blade on the end but pointing perpendicularly out. Like you say, Dagger Axe.

[Lucas]

wu means using the spear to stop resistance.

ahhh

but what if you dont have a spear and only have a baby?

[bawang]

'Ge' is a stick with a blade on the end but pointing perpendicularly out. Like you say, Dagger Axe.

peace -> grain + mouth

war -> conflict + spear


ahhh

but what if you dont have a spear and only have a baby?

baby are high in fat. they are good incendiary weapons

[RenDaHai]

If "combat" is not important to you then why do you want to train "hammer fist", "upper cut", "foot sweep", "hip throw", "wrist lock", ... What's the reason that you spend 2 hours infront of your heavy bag daily but you don't care about "combat"? Do 2 men drills and equipment training have any meaning for those who don't care about fighting? Is "solo drill/form" the only thing that you train if "combat" is not on your priority list? Will Fajin (power generation) be needed if "health" is your main goal?


Combat is of course important to everyone who trains Kung Fu. Combat is important to everyone on the planet. Combat is intrinsic to our nature, our essence.

Combat at its most primitive exists as physical violence. At its most primitive MA is to entrain the ability to commit violence. But this is no longer a good thing in our world . Once civilisation begins the nature of MA changes.

Violence is a thing of Evil. But as with many things it is Evil only when it is undisciplined. Used wisely in the hand of a skilful man it can bring relief where there is suffering. So in todays world the MA are inseparable from wisdom. The wisdom of how and when to use it. Kung Fu begins with combat but teaches wisdom.

As a society becomes great so wisdom becomes more respected than all other things. These vast systems of Kung Fu are unnecessary if you only consider combat. If you only want to be good at fighting then you do not need Kung Fu.

You only really need the ability to commit violence. Do you need powerful strikes too? Why learn to hit the heavy bag so hard? If your wrists are unwrapped and your hand ungloved and you punch that hard against a human skull you will smash your hand to pieces. So why spend so long on it?
Why? Because practicing a skill is a catalyst. The pursuit of it Changes ones perception.

'From the perpetual pursuit of the highest springs a series of realisations, each of which gives us the joy and pride of conquest. We use these realisations, these advantages gained over ourselves, in the realisation of another ideal which, once attained will allow us to pursue yet another of a form more nearly perfect.' - Yoritomo Minamoto, 1st Shogun of Japan

TO Consider any one thing as only its perceived function is…. unimaginative

But these things, they are intertwined inside our human nature. We want to reanimate all the forces that lie dormant in our natures. I said that the violence of MA was inseperable from the wisdom, well as is the wisdom from the violence. They are trained together, not one without the other.

[wenshu]

Character: 武
force / military / warlike / martial / footprints / steps / the length of half a pace / the string of an ancient hat / to inherit / a Chinese family name

Etymology (文字來源):
Remnant Primitive, to walk 止 with a weapon 戈 - military

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E6%AD%A6



Character: 戈

a spear / a lance / a javelin / a Chinese family name

Etymology (文字來源):
Remnant Primitive, A long handled non descript instrument - usually a hoe or ax

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E6%88%88



Character: 止
to stop / to desist / to still / to rest in / to stay / deportment / to detain / to prohibit / to come to / to arrive at / still / calm / stagnant / only

Etymology (文字來源):
Remnant Primitive, Foot

之止夊久步夂廴癶舛足走辵辶韋韦 all have feet in them. One or Two, pointing up, down, right or left. (They all have to do with motion, see 步)http://www.chineseetymology.org/ChinesePictures/foot1.jpg

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E6%AD%A2

[YouKnowWho]

Combat at its most primitive exists as physical violence.

Combat is not violance. Your friend comes to visit you, you throw him a wrestling jacket (or boxing gloves), You and your friend wrestle (or spar) for 15 rounds, have good time, and then enjoy nice meal on dinner table. This kind of fun, even money can't buy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we1SipG531A

[RenDaHai]

Combat is not violance. Your friend comes to visit you, you throw him a wrestling jacket (or boxing gloves), You and your friend wrestle (or spar) for 15 rounds, have good time, and then enjoy nice meal on dinner table. This kind of fun, even money can't buy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we1SipG531A

Combat AT ITS MOST PRIMITIVE exists as physical violence

Frankly I'm a little dissapointed thats all you took away from my post...

[SPJ]

What's your though?

Fighting skills are consisted of 3 skills.

1 weapon skills.

2 striking skills.

3 throwing skills.

I would add running and dodging skills.

If you think you may prevail, you fight.

If not, run.

So I include running and swimming as "fighting" skills.

You want to be at your physical best at any moment of your life.

so that you may out run your opponent if needed.

Health and fitness exercises are all part of it.

Take home maxims.

We may lose fights but do not lose health.

so that we may live to fight in another day.

In short, knowing how and when not to fight

is as important as knowing how and when to fight.

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

"Combat" can be a lot of "fun". It doesn't have to be "violence". I don't think we should associate "combat" with "violence". We should associate "combat" with "fun" instead. You just can't get this kind of "fun" in "solo" training. How much fun can you have when you play chess game against yourself?

In the following clip, I don't see any "violence" at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92vxyFBHgE

[RenDaHai]

"Combat" can be a lot of "fun". It doesn't have to be "violence". I don't think we should associate "combat" with "violence". We should associate "combat" with "fun" instead. You just can't get this kind of "fun" in "solo" training. How much fun can you have when you play chess game against yourself?

In the following clip, I don't see any "violence" at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92vxyFBHgE

Well thats fine. But Fighting IS about violence. It is about confronting it, committing it and receiving it. If we want MA to be all about fighting then it is all about violence. The type of Combat you talk about has another name, 'sport'. It is a wonderful pursuit we'll all agree. ANd it is fine to make your MA about sport. But sport is not violence (entirely). Fighting is about violence. Real violence. And when we say it like that it suddenly seems less savoury...... We spend hours a day practicing and contemplating violence. For our very sanity MA must be about other things as well.....

[Kellen Bassette]

Combat is of course important to everyone who trains Kung Fu. Combat is important to everyone on the planet. Combat is intrinsic to our nature, our essence.

Combat at its most primitive exists as physical violence. At its most primitive MA is to entrain the ability to commit violence. But this is no longer a good thing in our world . Once civilisation begins the nature of MA changes.

Violence is a thing of Evil. But as with many things it is Evil only when it is undisciplined. Used wisely in the hand of a skilful man it can bring relief where there is suffering. So in todays world the MA are inseparable from wisdom. The wisdom of how and when to use it. Kung Fu begins with combat but teaches wisdom.

As a society becomes great so wisdom becomes more respected than all other things. These vast systems of Kung Fu are unnecessary if you only consider combat. If you only want to be good at fighting then you do not need Kung Fu.

You only really need the ability to commit violence. Do you need powerful strikes too? Why learn to hit the heavy bag so hard? If your wrists are unwrapped and your hand ungloved and you punch that hard against a human skull you will smash your hand to pieces. So why spend so long on it?
Why? Because practicing a skill is a catalyst. The pursuit of it Changes ones perception.

'From the perpetual pursuit of the highest springs a series of realisations, each of which gives us the joy and pride of conquest. We use these realisations, these advantages gained over ourselves, in the realisation of another ideal which, once attained will allow us to pursue yet another of a form more nearly perfect.' - Yoritomo Minamoto, 1st Shogun of Japan

TO Consider any one thing as only its perceived function is…. unimaginative

But these things, they are intertwined inside our human nature. We want to reanimate all the forces that lie dormant in our natures. I said that the violence of MA was inseperable from the wisdom, well as is the wisdom from the violence. They are trained together, not one without the other.

"Kung Fu begins with combat but teaches wisdom." That is the objective. I didn't understand that 15 years ago, but I'm beginning to. When I'm 90 I won't be able to throw a tornado kick, but if you learn wisdom, you probably won't have to.

[bawang]

We spend hours a day practicing and contemplating violence
we dance around and twirl sticks.

For our very sanity MA must be about other things as well.....

then think about whose heritage you are learning and if you are worthy of that heritage

[wenshu]

More of the Kung Fu is Refined conceit; NeoConfucianism did more to kill kung fu than the Cultural Revolution ever did.



Combat at its most primitive exists as physical violence. At its most primitive MA is to entrain the ability to commit violence. But this is no longer a good thing in our world . Once civilisation begins the nature of MA changes.

Civilization is violence. It is humans exercising control over their environment and by environment I mean mostly other humans.

Violence didn't become obsolete, the tools used to commit it did. Martial arts ceased to be the most effective way to exercise our Will centuries ago and martial artists have been busy convincing themselves that they are something they're not ever since.



Violence is a thing of Evil. But as with many things it is Evil only when it is undisciplined.


As a society becomes great so wisdom becomes more respected than all other things.

You really need to get out of the dengfeng bubble more often bro.


Combat AT ITS MOST PRIMITIVE exists as physical violence

I don't understand how kicking people in the nuts and then rabbit punching them on the back of the skull when they're doubled over is representative of Wisdom and Refinement?

Let's not delude ourselves with self gratifying conceits about Wisdom and Righteousness.We do it cause its fun and against our better judgement we think it looks cool. True Righteousness is volunteering at a soup kitchen or needle exchange and donating the trust fund to the indigent.

[bawang]

More of the Kung Fu is Refined conceit;

please apply cream to bruised anus

True Righteousness is volunteering at a soup kitchen or needle exchange and donating the trust fund to the indigent.

people dont understand the "righteousness" thrown around in kung fu is a differnt kind of righteousness. its righteous as in "society of righteous harmonious fists".

[YouKnowWho]

Does "TCMA for health" apply only to the striking art? When you train your striking art solo forms, I can see that's good for your health. I just don't see how can anybody train the grappling art for health? Can you train your grappling art by throwing an imaginary opponent? What's "Judo for health" or "wrestling for health" suppose to look like? Is there such thing as "ground game for health"?

[bawang]

What's "Judo for health" or "wrestling for helth" suppose to look like?

push hands

[RenDaHai]

More of the Kung Fu is Refined conceit; NeoConfucianism did more to kill kung fu than the Cultural Revolution ever did.

Civilization is violence. It is humans exercising control over their environment and by environment I mean mostly other humans..

Ok


Violence didn't become obsolete, the tools used to commit it did. Martial arts ceased to be the most effective way to exercise our Will centuries ago and martial artists have been busy convincing themselves that they are something they're not ever since.

I'm talking about in terms of our evolution to a social structure. So in Nature violence is more apparent than in society.




You really need to get out of the dengfeng bubble more often bro.

true... I may well have gone mad.....I've been worried about it for some time...




I don't understand how kicking people in the nuts and then rabbit punching them on the back of the skull when they're doubled over is representative of Wisdom and Refinement?

Duality of nature. Contemplation and experience of violence and evil creates our aversion to it and the necessity of 'Do as thy would be done' ethics and morality. We can't have one side without the other and we must understand both intimately. The violence is not representative of wisdom but the confrontation of it, the coming to terms with it, that is. When we practice these things it makes us think about the consiquences.



Let's not delude ourselves with self gratifying conceits about Wisdom and Righteousness.We do it cause its fun and against our better judgement we think it looks cool. True Righteousness is volunteering at a soup kitchen or needle exchange and donating the trust fund to the indigent.

I'm not talking about rightiousness... I was talking about self knowledge.... Its kind of selfish isn't it? I'm not saying you have to be entirely altruistic.

[wenshu]

please apply cream to bruised anus


But you told me you liked it rough.

about that, yeah, uh, you're gonna need a cream with a little more medication. . .

just trust me on this



people dont understand the "righteousness" thrown around in kung fu is a differnt kind of righteousness. its righteous as in "society of righteous harmonious fists".

We both know he was implying Banal White People Righteousness not Bad Ass Eating White Babies Sino Centric Righteousness.

[bawang]

I'm not talking about rightiousness... I was talking about self knowledge.... Its kind of selfish isn't it? I'm not saying you have to be entirely altruistic.

u can go on and on about words and phrases and knwo a bunch of forms, despite your years spent at dengfeng, you have failed the very fundamental lesson of shaolin chan buddhism.


read this
http://www.coldsiberia.org/webdoc8.htm

[RenDaHai]

http://www.coldsiberia.org/webdoc8.htm

Thats why my master named me DaHai.... it means ocean. (lit. Big Sea) I think he wanted me to learn that principle.

[wenshu]

I'm talking about in terms of our evolution to a social structure. So in Nature violence is more apparent than in society.


No.



Duality of nature. Contemplation and experience of violence and evil creates our aversion to it and the necessity of 'Do as thy would be done' ethics and morality. We can't have one side without the other and we must understand both intimately.


Violence and evil are words used to describe interpretations of events. If you don't arbitrarily ascribe metaphysical characteristics to them there is no duality.



I'm not talking about rightiousness... I was talking about self knowledge.... Its kind of selfish isn't it? I'm not saying you have to be entirely altruistic.
'ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyou kinda were though

selflessness in the face of evil, the wisdom to do what is right . . .


Violence is a thing of Evil. But as with many things it is Evil only when it is undisciplined. Used wisely in the hand of a skilful man it can bring relief where there is suffering. So in todays world the MA are inseparable from wisdom. The wisdom of how and when to use it. Kung Fu begins with combat but teaches wisdom.

[xinyidizi]

We have heard this saying from different people many times in this forum. Of course we can use TCMA to:

- improve health. But we can run, walk, swim, lift weight, ...
- achieve self-cultivation. But we can go to church, temple, bible study, ...
- have fun. But we can play tennis, golf, make love, ...
- understand art. But we can dance, paint, play piano, ...
- ...

If "combat" is not important to you then why do you want to train "hammer fist", "upper cut", "foot sweep", "hip throw", "wrist lock", ... What's the reason that you spend 2 hours infront of your heavy bag daily but you don't care about "combat"? Do 2 men drills and equipment training have any meaning for those who don't care about fighting? Is "solo drill/form" the only thing that you train if "combat" is not on your priority list? Will Fajin (power generation) be needed if "health" is your main goal?

What's your though?

Combat is in human nature and IMO lacking combat is a source of all kinds of mental problems in the society. There is no place for real combat in a civilized world which is good but it is also good to have a safe version of it in the form of sparring and sport MA. I think other competitive sports have a similar effect but some of us prefer MA.

[RenDaHai]

Violence and evil are words used to describe interpretations of events. If you don't arbitrarily ascribe metaphysical characteristics to them there is no duality.

If we do as you say we won't have much of a conversation going about anything.



'ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyou kinda were though

selflessness in the face of evil, the wisdom to do what is right . . .

Wisdom is impartial

[MightyB]

Combat is not violance. Your friend comes to visit you, you throw him a wrestling jacket (or boxing gloves), You and your friend wrestle (or spar) for 15 rounds, have good time, and then enjoy nice meal on dinner table. This kind of fun, even money can't buy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we1SipG531A

Quoted for truth. Some people like me, and apparently YouKnowWho are just different. We enjoy the practice, and we enjoy the skill. The only way you know the skill is to apply it. Arts like SJ, Judo, Sambo, Boxing, and BJJ allow you to apply skill in a live matter. It doesn't matter if you win or lose because that's not the point. The point is the perfect foot sweep, or the correctly timed counter. It's not beating the person up. I think Fight Club touched on this notion correctly. It's not about the fight - it's about men doing what men do in a society that doesn't really like men being men.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/14309_10152213444110297_430942664_n.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fact is that one will never be a Martial anything, without exploring the martial aspect and that doesn't mean role playing "kung fu fighting" !

[David Jamieson]

We have heard this saying from different people many times in this forum. Of course we can use TCMA to:

- improve health. But we can run, walk, swim, lift weight, ...
- achieve self-cultivation. But we can go to church, temple, bible study, ...
- have fun. But we can play tennis, golf, make love, ...
- understand art. But we can dance, paint, play piano, ...
- ...

If "combat" is not important to you then why do you want to train "hammer fist", "upper cut", "foot sweep", "hip throw", "wrist lock", ... What's the reason that you spend 2 hours infront of your heavy bag daily but you don't care about "combat"? Do 2 men drills and equipment training have any meaning for those who don't care about fighting? Is "solo drill/form" the only thing that you train if "combat" is not on your priority list? Will Fajin (power generation) be needed if "health" is your main goal?

What's your though?

TCMA is indeed about the martial arts and fighting.

Kung Fu though? not so much.

TCMA is a term/acronym that is used in context to the fighting aspect of Kung Fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If we do as you say we won't have much of a conversation going about anything.



Wisdom is impartial

Wisdom is subjective to perception of reality at any given point in time.

[MightyB]

Well thats fine. But Fighting IS about violence. It is about confronting it, committing it and receiving it. If we want MA to be all about fighting then it is all about violence. The type of Combat you talk about has another name, 'sport'. It is a wonderful pursuit we'll all agree. ANd it is fine to make your MA about sport. But sport is not violence (entirely). Fighting is about violence. Real violence. And when we say it like that it suddenly seems less savoury...... We spend hours a day practicing and contemplating violence. For our very sanity MA must be about other things as well.....

I find this thought that's pervasive in traditional martial arts of all types to be particularly dangerous and delusional. There's this quasi righteous attitude that some traditionalists have thinking that what they do is somehow more effective and violent than the sport stylists. In some regards this was and can be true, but not without the sport... yet sport is denied as being low brow or beneath the high and mighty art. We've discussed this to death on this forum, but it does hold true.

Sparring in a safe and friendly matter has to be included whenever possible... everyday if you can. Serious sparring has to be included at some point too. What I mean by serious sparring is that you have to spar with the intent of knocking the person out at least a couple of times in your life. If you don't, you'll be forever stuck at an intermediate level as a martial artist.

[RenDaHai]

I find this thought that's pervasive in traditional martial arts of all types to be particularly dangerous and delusional. There's this quasi righteous attitude that some traditionalists have thinking that what they do is somehow more effective and violent than the sport stylists. In some regards this was and can be true, but not without the sport... yet sport is denied as being low brow or beneath the high and mighty art. We've discussed this to death on this forum, but it does hold true.

Sparring in a safe and friendly matter has to be included whenever possible... everyday if you can. Serious sparring has to be included at some point too. What I mean by serious sparring is that you have to spar with the intent of knocking the person out at least a couple of times in your life. If you don't, you'll be forever stuck at an intermediate level as a martial artist.

I'm not doing the whole 'Too dangerous for the ring' thing. I'm not saying what I do is more effective, I have no idea what you practice.

I don't say sport is low brow. Nor is it any way beneath the other pursuits of anything.

Don't twist my meaning.

Fighting is about VIOLENCE. If you want to deny this then you try.

I am in NO WAY saying that any MA deals with violence in a better way than any other.

But it is VERY important to recognise the component of VIOLENCE.

It is very disturbing to have violence with intent used against you, and to use it against someone. This psychological component is paramount.

YOu are the one who is dangerous and delusional if you ignore it.

YOu are arguing with your preconceived image of me as opposed to what I actually say.

The original point in this thread is about what more there is to MA other than fighting. Well, all the things you mention can go on that list. They should. MA should be about having fun with technique, definately. My whole argument centers on their being more than violence. But violence is there.

[RenDaHai]

Wisdom is subjective to perception of reality at any given point in time.

Indeed, and in that frame of reference it is impartial.

[MightyB]

YOu are arguing with your preconceived image of me as opposed to what I actually say.

Actually I'm not arguing against you, I do understand what you're saying and it's true to a point. That's why combat schools always try to include stress and disorientation into their training... but let's be real - how many TCMA or any traditional schools put stress and disorientation (perceived threat of violence) into their training, let alone just basic sparring using their most basic skill sets? And then they say they are training some Jedi like next generation of warrior scholars. It's just plain silly.

[RenDaHai]

Actually I'm not arguing against you, I do understand what you're saying and it's true to a point. That's why combat schools always try to include stress and disorientation into their training... but let's be real - how many TCMA or any traditional schools put stress and disorientation (perceived threat of violence) into their training, let alone just basic sparring using their most basic skill sets? And then they say they are training some Jedi like next generation of warrior scholars. It's just plain silly.

Well, yeah. But its not even about the method of this training.

What I mean is if we strip MA down to its bare minimum, to its most basic and ancient component, that is to prepare someone to commit violence. Off course, that is not what most of us do, and so MA is already about a lot more than violence. I'm saying violence begets wisdom, because someone who experiences violence develops a distaste for it and methods of avoiding it quickly appear. And I believe we should embrace all aspects of that expansion. Not tie them down to what we believe is effective because the truth is we never know in what way MA will help a person, or be used by them. It is different for everyone, every time they use it.

I'm not saying my way is better, I'm saying no-one's way is better. And all aspects of how MA evolved should be enjoyed. Not accused of being Pansies and nerds, and not accused of being jock sports stereotypes.

[MightyB]

I'll give you a scenario that you can use next time you have class...

put on some gear (head gear w/ face guard, and a good cup). Turn off all the lights. Have a gallon of fake blood handy and a starter pistol. Call your top student. Tell him you're running late and ask him to open the class for you. Hide in the corner of the kwoon.

When he comes in and proceeds to nonchalantly turn on the lights - scream "mothuh f*cker!) while throwing the fake blood on him and fire your starter pistol a couple of times - then proceed to physically attack him. See how he does in that situation. Does he freeze up? Scream? Run Away? Pee his pants? Faint? Curl up in the fetal position? Adopt a fighting stance?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll give you a scenario that you can use next time you have class...

put on some gear (head gear w/ face guard, and a good cup). Turn off all the lights. Have a gallon of fake blood handy and a starter pistol. Call your top student. Tell him you're running late and ask him to open the class for you. Hide in the corner of the kwoon.

When he comes in and proceeds to nonchalantly turn on the lights - scream "mothuh f*cker!) while throwing the fake blood on him and fire your starter pistol a couple of times - then proceed to physically attack him. See how he does in that situation. Does he freeze up? Scream? Run Away? Pee his pants? Faint? Curl up in the fetal position? Adopt a fighting stance?

If he's a real kung fu fighter, he'll break out into a form !
:D

[MightyB]

BTW - I'd probably scream and pee my pants the first time someone ambushed me like that... by the fifth, I'd probably be ok.

[taai gihk yahn]

See how he does in that situation. Does he freeze up? Scream? Run Away? Pee his pants? Faint? Curl up in the fetal position? Adopt a fighting stance?

what if he becomes aroused, grabs u, starts moaning and says, "oh, it's been such a long two weeks since last time!"

:eek::eek::eek:

[MightyB]

what if he becomes aroused, grabs u, starts moaning and says, "oh, it's been such a long two weeks since last time!"

:eek::eek::eek:

Then he has the realz kung fu!

[MightyB]

Scenario 1: Potential student walks into a kwoon.

"Hi, I'm here to learn Chinese Martial Arts."

Sifu "Great. What would you like to know?"

student "So, if I do this, will I learn to kick arse like in the movies?"

Sifu "Well we don't really do that here..."

student "What do you mean?"

Sifu "What we do here is teach Chinese culture and traditions. Plus we teach self cultivation"

Student "but the sign says martial arts"

Sifu "well martial arts aren't really about fighting per se..." as he begins pouring the cool aid the potential student slowly walks out the door.

[MightyB]

Scenario 2:

Potential student walks into kwoon...

student "Hi I'd like to learn Chinese Martial Arts?"

Sifu "Why?"

student "so I can kick arse like in the movies"

Sifu "Cool, what would you like to know?"

student "Awesome! So do I need to buy some equipment to start sparring?"

Sifu "not yet, first we have to teach you the basics - I'll do that with a form"

student "understandable, but after I learn that, will I be able to practice fighting?"

Sifu "no - not yet, then I'll have to teach you another form to get you ready"

student "ok, but after that it's fight training right?"

Sifu "not exactly, you'll then have to get some silk pajamas and I'll teach you how to swing a tin foil sword.. but it'll be really cool"

student "all right, I guess I can do that and it'd be neat, but then it's fight training right?"

Sifu "well, kind've - but first I'll have to teach you how to Lion Dance"

student " (to self) wtf... ok, but what about fighting, when do I start training to fight?"

Sifu "when you're ready, I'll teach you"

student "how will I know when I'm ready?"

Sifu "don't worry, I'll tell you when you're ready to fight"

student begins to sip the cool aid.

Student "Mmmm this is good cool aid - I'll be able to fight someday if I do all this?"

Sifu "why yes you will... someday"

[Orion Paximus]

I think my eyes just rolled right out of my head

[hskwarrior]

Scenario 2:

Potential student walks into kwoon...

student "Hi I'd like to learn Chinese Martial Arts?"

Sifu "Why?"

student "so I can kick arse like in the movies"

Sifu "Cool, what would you like to know?"

student "Awesome! So do I need to buy some equipment to start sparring?"

Sifu "not yet, first we have to teach you the basics - I'll do that with a form"

student "understandable, but after I learn that, will I be able to practice fighting?"

Sifu "no - not yet, then I'll have to teach you another form to get you ready"

student "ok, but after that it's fight training right?"

Sifu "not exactly, you'll then have to get some silk pajamas and I'll teach you how to swing a tin foil sword.. but it'll be really cool"

student "all right, I guess I can do that and it'd be neat, but then it's fight training right?"

Sifu "well, kind've - but first I'll have to teach you how to Lion Dance"

student " (to self) wtf... ok, but what about fighting, when do I start training to fight?"

Sifu "when you're ready, I'll teach you"

student "how will I know when I'm ready?"

Sifu "don't worry, I'll tell you when you're ready to fight"

student begins to sip the cool aid.

Student "Mmmm this is good cool aid - I'll be able to fight someday if I do all this?"

Sifu "why yes you will... someday"


i love comedy. this is hella funny. sounds like some plot from an american made kung fu movie. awesome!!!!! :D :rolleyes::)


Scenario 1: Potential student walks into a kwoon.

"Hi, I'm here to learn Chinese Martial Arts."

Sifu "Great. What would you like to know?"

student "So, if I do this, will I learn to kick arse like in the movies?"

Sifu "Well we don't really do that here..."

student "What do you mean?"

Sifu "What we do here is teach Chinese culture and traditions. Plus we teach self cultivation"

Student "but the sign says martial arts"

Sifu "well martial arts aren't really about fighting per se..." as he begins pouring the cool aid the potential student slowly walks out the door.

more comedy. awesome! i needed to laugh like that. rough morning. laughter is a great cure for depression.

[RenDaHai]

Scenario 1: Potential student walks into a kwoon.

"Hi, I'm here to learn Chinese Martial Arts."

Sifu "Great. What would you like to know?" (good a new student)

student "So, if I do this, will I learn to kick arse like in the movies?"

Sifu "Well we don't really do that here..." (geez, better get rid of this guy, he's a moron)

student "What do you mean?"

Sifu "What we do here is teach Chinese culture and traditions. Plus we teach self cultivation" (this will put him off)

Student "but the sign says martial arts"

Sifu "No, the sign says Kung Fu..."

[hskwarrior]

Scenario 1: Potential student walks into a kwoon.

"Hi, I'm here to learn Chinese Martial Arts."

Sifu "Great. What would you like to know?" (good a new student)

student "So, if I do this, will I learn to kick arse like in the movies?"

Sifu "Well we don't really do that here..." (geez, better get rid of this guy, he's a moron)

student "What do you mean?"

Sifu "What we do here is teach Chinese culture and traditions. Plus we teach self cultivation" (this will put him off)

Student "but the sign says martial arts"

Sifu "No, the sign says Kung Fu..."


i like this one better hahahahaha

[MightyB]

i like this one better hahahahaha

it is funnier.


---
Unfortunately a LARPing Sifu ends up with a class full of pu$$y LARPers and children, but to each his own eh. :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

I'll just join a klingon martial art class. cuz everyone knows klingons are hardcore.

[MightyB]

I'll just join a klingon martial art class. cuz everyone knows klingons are hardcore.

Thing is that I don't mind the LARPing. It's relaxing and kind've fun to do if you recognize it for what it is. It's neat swinging swords and twirling through the air. It is athletic... it's even fun to contemplate your navel while channeling the force to your extremities utilizing proper breathing techniques. I enjoy it as much as the next guy and under no false pretense am I doing it - meaning I know that it's not making me into some kind've invincible warrior. It is what it is and I appreciate that. Same as the sport stuff. It is what it is - I'm not going to be an Olympian, or MMA super athlete - or even a tough guy on the street - it's just a good workout where you get to throw people around after work.

[GeneChing]

Have a gallon of fake blood handy and a starter pistol. Call your top student.

It was similar to that surprise attack scenario, only there was no fake blood. It was a real gun too, but he had the hammer pulled out so it was rendered inoperative.

I was only like 8 or 9 at the time.

[hskwarrior]

it is funnier.

that too. but i see it as being more accurate.

here's my scenario:

PS (potential student).

a PS walks in and out of wanting to be respectful, does a karate style bow.

Sifu: (whoa whats he doin?) Uh, we don't bow like that here. a simple hello will suffice.

PS: "Hi, I'm here to learn Chinese Martial Arts."

Sifu: (Uh-oh, he looks like a little nutty) Smiles and asks " what attracted you to the chinese martial arts?"

PS: oh, health, spirituality, self cultivation, and enlightenment.

Sifu: oops, sorry, let me turn the lights on so we can see. there we go. (oh sh1t, he is a nut.) uh, we don't teach that here. we teach you have to kick ass when you need to.

PS: oh wonderful. i would love to become a fighter and protect myself too one day. how many forms do you teach?

Sifu: uh, forms won't teach you how to fight. (oh lord, what can i say to get him to go to Shaolin Do instead of here? :confused:) they just catalog our techniques.

Sifu: have you ever been in a fight?

PS: no, but i watch a lot of UFC and wear Tap Out Gear cause it makes me feel kind tough.

Sifu: (oh sh1t no he didn't). the UFC huh? nice. now strike these pads with a typical one two punch combo and lets see where you are.

PS: ok cool. i'm a hard hitter.

student launches a series of two hit combo's..........................

Sifu: (omg, my baby sister hits harder than this guy). oh nice work. (not).
ok, now, we train stances too here as its important to build a strong foundation. lets sit in what we call our SEI PING MA, ok? cool.

20 seconds later, the PS is sweating, shaking and ready to fall to the floor and begs to stop.


Sifu: (fakkin sissy can't do a single minute hahahaha). ok, well, first lets build your stances and train your strikes before moving on to the forms. (he ain't learning **** till he can stops striking like a dying old man and can sit in a fakkin horse longer than 3 minutes.)

see you next week.

[MightyB]

that too. but i see it as being more accurate.

here's my scenario:

PS (potential student).

a PS walks in and out of wanting to be respectful, does a karate style bow.

Sifu: (whoa whats he doin?) Uh, we don't bow like that here. a simple hello will suffice.

PS: "Hi, I'm here to learn Chinese Martial Arts."

Sifu: (Uh-oh, he looks like a little nutty) Smiles and asks " what attracted you to the chinese martial arts?"

PS: oh, health, spirituality, self cultivation, and enlightenment.

Sifu: oops, sorry, let me turn the lights on so we can see. there we go. (oh sh1t, he is a nut.) uh, we don't teach that here. we teach you have to kick ass when you need to.

PS: oh wonderful. i would love to become a fighter and protect myself too one day. how many forms do you teach?

Sifu: uh, forms won't teach you how to fight. (oh lord, what can i say to get him to go to Shaolin Do instead of here? :confused:) they just catalog our techniques.

Sifu: have you ever been in a fight?

PS: no, but i watch a lot of UFC and wear Tap Out Gear cause it makes me feel kind tough.

Sifu: (oh sh1t no he didn't). the UFC huh? nice. now strike these pads with a typical one two punch combo and lets see where you are.

PS: ok cool. i'm a hard hitter.

student launches a series of two hit combo's..........................

Sifu: (omg, my baby sister hits harder than this guy). oh nice work. (not).
ok, now, we train stances too here as its important to build a strong foundation. lets sit in what we call our SEI PING MA, ok? cool.

20 seconds later, the PS is sweating, shaking and ready to fall to the floor and begs to stop.


Sifu: (fakkin sissy can't do a single minute hahahaha). ok, well, first lets build your stances and train your strikes before moving on to the forms.

see you next week.

Awesome and the way it should be! :)

[MightyB]

It was similar to that surprise attack scenario, only there was no fake blood. It was a real gun too, but he had the hammer pulled out so it was rendered inoperative.

I was only like 8 or 9 at the time.

See it worked! You're like a semi-famous professional martial arts writer/author and you've met some super hot chicks! All because of that experience.

[Lucas]

invincible warrior. .

speak for yourself, my klingon training made me into the ultimate warrior.

http://cdn.cnwimg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ultimate_warrior_2.jpg

[MightyB]

speak for yourself, my klingon training made me into the ultimate warrior.

http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/13.jpg

Fixed it for you.

[Lucas]

Fixed it for you.

quit stalking me

[GeneChing]

See it worked! You're like a semi-famous professional martial arts writer/author and you've met some super hot chicks! All because of that experience. Actually, that's what inspired me to move on to another school. But for the record, I was also involved in Klingon martial arts (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=910733#post910733).

It's a weird life, but it's mine. :o

[sanjuro_ronin]

My scenarios are so much simpler:

PS: I want to learn kung fu
ME: Why?
PS: to protect my self, to fight.
ME: good, lets see what you can do..
* beat the crap out of potential student*
Me: Not bad.
PS: I have to go now...
REAL Student: When can I join?

Or:
PS: I wanna learn kung fu
Me: Why?
PS: exercise and mental disciplne
ME: what about fighting?
PS: What?
* beat the crap out of potential student*
Me: Not bad.
PS: I have to go now...
REAL Student: When can I join?


:D

[Lucas]

last time we went larping at the trek convention mighty b got lucky and walked home with this beauty:

http://www.thefullmooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pink_klingon.jpg

[MightyB]

Haven't you guys met some super hot chicks? Hmm, that might explain a few things....

I met one but she was already Lucas's girlfriend. I did take this pic of her though:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aDrdQUi--FE/Tu64pw7D7hI/AAAAAAAADWk/oawa3B9-Cvs/s1600/pink_klingon.jpg

(don't tell Lucas I took pics of his girlfriend - also she used to date Sanjuro)

[MightyB]

This is just weird, yet strangely on-topic for our derail:

http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/TheKlingonHamlet.jpg

[Lucas]

I met one but she was already Lucas's girlfriend. I did take this pic of her though:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aDrdQUi--FE/Tu64pw7D7hI/AAAAAAAADWk/oawa3B9-Cvs/s1600/pink_klingon.jpg

(don't tell Lucas I took pics of his girlfriend - also she used to date Sanjuro)

HAHAHAH great minds my friend great minds.

[MightyB]

Here's what a Klingon who smokes too much pot looks like:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z167/Great_WhiteSnark/Klingon_Rapper.jpg

[MightyB]

HAHAHAH great minds my friend great minds.

well it was a finger trap night! Hahahahaha

Needs a visual for the kids in the audience:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxw46dNKB31qbeu0t.png

[Lucas]

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6416/klingon.jpg

[MightyB]

Thread derailed by Klingons Beyotches!!!
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRN-a8edipcmfw1fLAHRxI9th7cAp5pgWMtJwqZxmz5Mcdb05t7gj8 7DSvkww

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://api.ning.com/files/XjhMMZugbJfkmtYJVy2JulIABLnmc3SkxH-sBHQZctU_/6453_1167744444880_1566008565_30428930_7168283_n.j pg

http://nerv27.tripod.com/WW02.JPG

http://www.klingon-empire.org/photopost/data/500/B_Etor_02.jpg

[MightyB]

and this is one of those things.

KLINGON RAP
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBtj4WoC6XA)

http://c25460.r60.cf1.rackcdn.com/2010/09/Pimp-Worf-225x275.jpg

[hskwarrior]

**** you beat me to it hahahahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiB1A9c-KQA&feature=related

[GeneChing]

It's Kung-Fu Klingons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVM2qIPg4y0). The other styles ain't got that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Cross posting I know, but I'm awesome, so I can !
:D

Kung fu isn't JUST about fighting, we all know this and not everyone does kung fu "to fight" or to be prepared to fight.
The problem is when kung fu is NEVER about fighting.
This is what I mean:
From the first time I started MA in 78 till the day I "retired" my "competitive spirit", MA ( including kung fu of course) was always PRIMARILY about fighting, a good 90% if not more.
Now, kung fu is about fun, exercise and maintaining as much of a "combat mindest" as I can now that I am no longer a fighter (literally).
In short, kung fu can be about "something else" NOW because it was "all about fighting" then.
If a person never goes through that "all about fighting" phase, IMO they will never know Kung Fu.
__________________

[hskwarrior]

Cross posting I know, but I'm awesome, so I can !

Me TOOOOOOOO! :D


kung fu is whatever you put your mind to. whether its forms, lion dancing or fighting. some people do it for themselves. others do it to test themselves in competition and reach for the gold. it when we start letting others tell us how we should feel, want, or do becomes the problem.

i am happy with what i do. my students are happy. they don't have dreams of becoming ufc champs. they're satisfied with what they're learning and confident in using it effectively in a hostile situation.

kung fu itself is the umbrella and under it falls the fighting, forms, lion dancing, basics and stance training then into weapons.

all of those who hate kung fu, thats your problem. deal with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Never did
Me TOOOOOOOO! :D


kung fu is whatever you put your mind to. whether its forms, lion dancing or fighting. some people do it for themselves. others do it to test themselves in competition and reach for the gold. it when we start letting others tell us how we should feel, want, or do becomes the problem.

i am happy with what i do. my students are happy. they don't have dreams of becoming ufc champs. they're satisfied with what they're learning and confident in using it effectively in a hostile situation.

kung fu itself is the umbrella and under it falls the fighting, forms, lion dancing, basics and stance training then into weapons.

all of those who hate kung fu, thats your problem. deal with it.

Never did a lion dance or even learned a step.
Probably got more immersed in Japanese culture ( due to my time training at the Japanese cultural centre) than I ever did in the Chinese one.
I guess I don't have the "real" kung fu !
:eek:

[hskwarrior]

Never did a lion dance or even learned a step.
Probably got more immersed in Japanese culture ( due to my time training at the Japanese cultural centre) than I ever did in the Chinese one.
I guess I don't have the "real" kung fu !

there is more to lion dancing than meets the eye. there is a lot of combative things a lion dancer does that is hidden to the untrained eye.

for instance, in my sifu and his sifu's days the lion heads were equipped with butterfly knives. there were times they actually fought with the lions. this can still happen today in the old school chinatown groups.

other than that, there are strikes and blocks commonly found in kung fu that are involved with lion dancing. lots of the leg work is actually beneficial to fighting imo. there are even kicks involved.

but you have be into lion dancing to see what i mean.

[MightyB]

Never did

Never did a lion dance or even learned a step.
Probably got more immersed in Japanese culture ( due to my time training at the Japanese cultural centre) than I ever did in the Chinese one.
I guess I don't have the "real" kung fu !
:eek:

All these poseurs do Southern Lion <Pffft> now Northern Lion, that's Kung FU!

Now here's a very very young MightyB being chased by a lion:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/299498_2118114150013_1919217086_n.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

All these poseurs do Southern Lion <Pffft> now Northern Lion, that's Kung FU!

Now here's a very very young MightyB being chased by a lion:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/299498_2118114150013_1919217086_n.jpg

That's a very gay looking lion.
I will refrain on commenting about the flameness of your younger self.
:D

[Lucas]

I think it comes down to the fact that people who are interested in martial arts, but not fighting, are drawn to cma because there is more that you can learn besides fighting and still spend all your days learning. There is that much volume.

Not many martial arts can offer that.

Then you have people who are interested in combat and are drawn to cma because of basically the same reason. There is a large volume of material within cma that is combat oriented.

Personally for me I think it is important to have combat in mind. I always have and I always will view everything first from a combat stand point. I would not practice chinese martial arts for health. Qi Gong yes, but not the martial. That is for combat orientation. If someone wants health, you never have to ever throw a punch or a kick in your entire life. The very act of fighting in itself is not healthy. If you have ever fought or trained hard to fight, you will have injuries in your body that you will have forever. Thats the trade off you accept as someone interested in fighting. You will be hurt. To quote mike tyson: "I have some pain I'm going to have for the rest of my life. So every now and then I kick your f*cking ass."

I think one of the major qualities someone must have in order to truly be interested in learning to fight is to not be afraid to be hurt badly. You have to accept that you will be eventually. You have to be ok with the knowledge you may have your bones broken.

[hskwarrior]

That's a very gay looking lion.
I will refrain on commenting about the flameness of your younger self.

tell em! its a straight up mess!!!!! lol

[Lucas]

just to derail a bit, and speaking of mike tyson. here is one of my favorite mike tyson quotes:

here is what he said to a reporter in the crowd who made a comment to him that he did not like:

"White boy, f*ggot, you can't touch me you're not man enough, I eat your ass all alive, you b*tch, can't anybody in here f*ck with this, this is the ultimate. F*ck you, you hoe! Come say it to my face, you b*tch. Come on you b*tch, you're a scared coward, you're not man enough to f*ck with me, you can't last two minutes in my world b*tch. (At this point the reporter backs away deeper into the crowd) Look you scared now, you hoe. Scared like a little cracker b*tch. Scared of the real man! I'll f*ck you till you love me."

[hskwarrior]

"White boy, f*ggot, you can't touch me you're not man enough, I eat your ass all alive, you b*tch, can't anybody in here f*ck with this, this is the ultimate. F*ck you, you hoe! Come say it to my face, you b*tch. Come on you b*tch, you're a scared coward, you're not man enough to f*ck with me, you can't last two minutes in my world b*tch. (At this point the reporter backs away deeper into the crowd) Look you scared now, you hoe. Scared like a little cracker b*tch. Scared of the real man! I'll f*ck you till you love me."

don't let your parents see you using words like those man. hurry up and delete hahahahaha JK.

[MightyB]

That's a very gay looking lion.
I will refrain on commenting about the flameness of your younger self.
:D

Straight off of Fire Island!!! You know, you were there :eek::):eek::):eek::):eek::eek:

[Lucas]

don't let your parents see you using words like those man. hurry up and delete hahahahaha JK.

mike tyson is my mother and my father

[hskwarrior]

mike tyson is my mother and my father

oh what a cool relationship. one day you can call him Damma and the other Maddy.
i'm so happy for you bro. Cheers! :D

[YouKnowWho]

I met someone who did sword form in the park yesterday. I asked him if he is interesting in application and he said no. I suppose to meet him 3 PM today (in less than 2 hours). I don't know what we will do. I'm interest in spar/wrestle or partner application drills with him but he is not. He is interest in solo form training and I'm not. May be I just skip this meeting because I don't see any value for it. Maybe I just do my 4 miles running for health instead.

I have serious problem dealing with "TCMA for health" people. I don't know what I can do with them. I truly don't want to watch someone to do his form. I don't feel like to do form for someone to watch either. The is no "fun" to be around those kind of people.

[Lucas]

did you had asked him of why he isnt interested in application or sparring? maybe his answer is the key. in my experience sometimes when some guys are not interestedin the real combat relation, its because they think they dont need the training and that they get enough from their form. most likely those people have never been in a helpless situation where they are being dominated. if he is only interested in health that is one thing, but if he does interest in combat, you should dominate him so that his eyes open to the truth, that he is not learning how to really help himself in defense.

[TenTigers]

My Gung-Fu training is strictly for longevity.




If I outlive my enemies, then I will have achieved longevity.

[Lucas]

I have serious problem dealing with "TCMA for health" people. I don't know what I can do with them. I truly don't want to watch someone to do his form. I don't feel like to do form for someone to watch either. The is no "fun" to be around those kind of people.

I do too. What bother me is people who use martial arts for health. if they are truly interested in health, they are wasting a lot of time practicing combat movements.

you think they do in a training week 1000 punches from all the form they do. if they spent that time instead doing something directly related to health, they will work toward their goal more progressively and realistically.

if someone likes health only, they are wasting a lot of time with combat form. just do yoga, qi gong, and general health practice.

so, imo, someone who does martial arts for health, is not making wise use of their time. they are wasting a good deal of their time and are not approaching their goals intelligently.

[YouKnowWho]

did you had asked him of why he isnt interested in application or sparring?

I have met so many Taiji guys in California. None of them are interesting in application. When a "TCMA for health" guy meets another "TCMA for health" guy, all they can do is just working on solo form together. How boring that kind of life is?

[taai gihk yahn]

http://c25460.r60.cf1.rackcdn.com/2010/09/Pimp-Worf-225x275.jpg

He is NOT a merry man!

[TenTigers]

I am the same way with Tai-Chi people. They say they're doing it for health, chi-gung, etc, but they don't practice combat application. Not that I'm all about ch'i-gung and ch'i-bawlz, n'such but...

In TCM, and in TCMA, yi leads ch'i. Your intent leads your energy. No intent, energy stagnates.
If you know the applications, when you practice the solo form, you are still visualizing, feeling, the application, hence, you are moving ch'i.
Just doing the form, is a step above bedsores.

Well, as much as I try to teach this in my Tai-Chi classes, people don't stay.
Sadly, they don't want it. They just want to do the slow wave their arms movements and learn the fan set....

Everyone wants to learn the fan set!
No, seriously. That's what they want. The lady teaching at the library has a separate fan set class, and it's packed.
Calvin Chin has a separate class, and it's packed.

gonna have to buy me a fan..

[YouKnowWho]

someone who does martial arts for health, is not making wise use of their time.

I agree with you 100% on this. Running, swimming, sit up, push up, ... all can lead to a very healthy life. No matter how slow you punch and kick, it will still be bad for your joint. When you swim in the water, you won't have any joint problem. The swimming can be good for your healthy better than your TCMA training.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am the same way with Tai-Chi people. They say they're doing it for health, chi-gung, etc, but they don't practice combat application. Not that I'm all about ch'i-gung and ch'i-bawlz, n'such but...

In TCM, and in TCMA, yi leads ch'i. Your intent leads your energy. No intent, energy stagnates.
If you know the applications, when you practice the solo form, you are still visualizing, feeling, the application, hence, you are moving ch'i.
Just doing the form, is a step above bedsores.

Well, as much as I try to teach this in my Tai-Chi classes, people don't stay.
Sadly, they don't want it. They just want to do the slow wave their arms movements and learn the fan set....

Everyone wants to learn the fan set!
No, seriously. That's what they want. The lady teaching at the library has a separate fan set class, and it's packed.
Calvin Chin has a separate class, and it's packed.

gonna have to buy me a fan..

see, the funny thing is, IMPO, whereas qigong is great for health (as that's what it was designed for), taiji actually isn't! first off, it's an asymmetrical practice, which means you don't get balanced movements on each side; second, the form is really impractical space-wise for many people; third, you can't tailor it to a given pathology the way you can qigong; fourth, it takes a while to teach the form and is too complex for many people - much easier to teach qigong;

so, you can do taiji in a "non-martial" way, for a nice parasympathetic rush, which is n't a bad thing, but really, u r wasting ur time - qigong is a much more efficient way of doing that across the board...

of course, if u want to look cool, then sure, go for it!

P.S. - Rik, feel free to send those people to me - I'll be happy to hug some trees, crunch some granola and weave some hemp with them...;)

[YouKnowWho]

I met someone who did sword form in the park yesterday. I asked him if he is interesting in application and he said no. I suppose to meet him 3 PM today (in less than 2 hours).

After waiting for that guy for 20 minutes in the park, he didn't show up. My partner training suggestion must turn him off. :(

Here is something fun.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Cd6C1vIyQ3w

[Lucas]

After waiting for that guy for 20 minutes in the park, he didn't show up. My partner training suggestion must turn him off. :(

he was scared you would hurt him. or maybe his gynecology appointment ran long.

[Lucas]

wow that does look like fun

[tungmojingjung]

When I first started learning martial arts it was simply to learn how to fight, fighting was the focal point back in those days. It is most important to know what the movements are for but most important how to use in a realistic manner. This aspect of our kung fu training can be best exercised by free sparring next to actual fighting.

Now after about 4 decades I feel I have a good understanding of myself as far as fighting is concerned, I am confident in myself and my abilities, however now fighting is no longer the focal point because if I limit myself to this one aspect of my kung fu training I will miss out on so much more.

When we were taught my sifu taught us to practice to forget, don't worry about it is what sifu would say, "if we practice our skills with intent, it will be there when we needed it", he would always use this for example, when you first learn to tie our shoe strings in the beginning, we put some thought and repitition into it, after awhile, it became second nature no thought, we just did it. Hopefully our martial arts is progressing in the same manner, to the point that through our continuous practice with serious intent we will begin to develop the unconscious reaction, and if we aquire that, then is there really a need to use so much of our time focusing on one aspect of our training, Sifu would always tell us, to have confidence in ourselves and our abilities.

[hskwarrior]

Now after about 4 decades I feel I have a good understanding of myself as far as fighting is concerned, I am confident in myself and my abilities, however now fighting is no longer the focal point because if I limit myself to this one aspect of my kung fu training I will miss out on so much more.

thats the thing about kung fu being a personal path. i believe the fighting side is for the young folk. thats if you start young in martial arts. ring or the street, its important to get it out of your system. once you do you can focus on everything else. still, even on a light to mid-weight scale, a teacher should always try to keep his own skills up to par. sometimes we neglect our own training for the sake of our students.


"if we practice our skills with intent, it will be there when we needed it",

right. repetition with intent. even if the motion is slow and soft as long as the mental intent is there it will be embedded in your mind eventually turning it into second nature.

whether directly or indirectly Sifu taught me to own my gung fu. and this is part of the reason most people aren't that good with gung fu, because they don't know how to own it.

[YouKnowWho]

repetition with intent.
I don't think "intend" is the main issue here. The main issue is

- Partner training vs. solo training.
- Heavy bag training vs. strikingt into the thin air training.

In order to make your "hip throw" work, you have to throw a 200 lb guy over your head. Just repeating the "hip throw" solo training with "intend" won't help you that much.

IMO, it's better to have partner train with "no intend" than to have solo training with intend. If you can make your opponent to fly over your head with "no intend", that will be even better.

[hskwarrior]

In order to make your "hip throw" work, you have to throw a 200 lb guy over your head. Just repeating the "hip throw" solo training with "intend" won't help you that much.

i agree. still,when you are solo training it is a MUST that you train mentally as well as physically. you can train with intention on any level with or without a partner. your mind is a very big part of making it work for you.


IMO, it's better to have partner train with "no intend" than to have solo training with intend. If you can make your opponent to fly over your head with "no intend", that will be even better.

so are you saying since one doesn't have a partner he shouldn't train unless he does?

[YouKnowWho]

so are you saying since one doesn't have a partner he shouldn't train unless he does?

That's heavy bag, striking dummy, throwing dummy, elastic punching ball, cane bundle, ... are designed for. I even design my own training equipment so I can still train my combat skill when partner is not available. 1/4 mile away from my house, some new trees are planted in the park. The trees are just the human leg size. I can use it to train a lot of leg moves. I can also use body size tree to train my body moves. First you have to decide what skill that you want to develop. You then design your training tools to enhance your skill.

Here are just 2 simple ideas.

http://imageshack.us/a/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img685/5167/singleheadbow.jpg

I prefer to use my striking dummy to train my kick punch combos. I feel no satisfaction to strik into the thin air.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/347/strikingdummy.jpg

[Bacon]

i agree
so are you saying since one doesn't have a partner he shouldn't train unless he does?

if you're training on your own you're not really training. Anyone who doesn't have a partner would be better off just doing physical conditioning work.

[hskwarrior]

if you're training on your own you're not really training. Anyone who doesn't have a partner would be better off just doing physical conditioning work.

a good martial artist will know what he has to train with or without a partner. It doesn't take a genius to understand this. Don't limit yourself.

[hskwarrior]

that's heavy bag, striking dummy, throwing dummy, elastic punching ball, cane bundle, ... Are designed for. I even design my own training equipment so i can still train my combat skill when partner is not available. 1/4 mile away from my house, some new trees are planted in the park. The trees are just the human leg size. I can use it to train a lot of leg moves. I can also use body size tree to train my body moves. First you have to decide what skill that you want to develop. You then design your training tools to enhance your skill.

Here are just 2 simple ideas.

http://imageshack.us/a/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img685/5167/singleheadbow.jpg

i prefer to use my striking dummy to train my kick punch combos. I feel no satisfaction to strik into the thin air.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/347/strikingdummy.jpg

i don't disagree with you. I'm saying that you can still train without a partner. I never said its the best way. Just that its a way. I'd rather have a way than no way.

I'M NOT SURE IF YOU'RE SAYING EVEN SHADOW BOXING IS A WASTE OF TIME????

[wenshu]

if you're training on your own you're not really training. Anyone who doesn't have a partner would be better off just doing physical conditioning work.

Speed bag, heavy bag, double end bag, shadow boxing, footwork drills. . .

[hskwarrior]

Speed bag, heavy bag, double end bag, shadow boxing, footwork drills. . .

BACON, SHOULD ONE NOTPRACTICE WHAT EVEN WENSHU POSTED? IS THAT A WASTE OF TIME TOO? SHOULD HE JUST GO DO MORE CONDITIONING INSTEAD? :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

I'M NOT SURE IF YOU'RE SAYING EVEN SHADOW BOXING IS A WASTE OF TIME????

I can only speak for myself. Striking into the thin air gives me no satisfaction. I still don't know how to punch/throw a non-exist opponent. Any physical target is better than no target at all. I have an unused carpet. I roll it into a bundle. When I let it stand in front of me, I can image that's my opponent's leading leg. With that target, I can

- move in with the correct footwork,
- land my foot at the right position,
- sweep that carpet bundle from the correct angle,
- remain perfect balance after sweep.

Without that physical target, I don't have any "reference point" and my training will be "for health only".

[hskwarrior]

i can only speak for myself. Striking into the thin air gives me no satisfaction.

just because you may not, others may indeed get something out of it, so i think its wrong to tell anyone not to do it.


any physical target is better than no target at all.

sure. But you limit yourself to just that. Others won't. Hope that doesn't affect your training nonethe less.


without that physical target, i don't have any "reference point" and my training will be "for health only".

there's absolutely nothing wrong with reinforcing your "reference points".

[YouKnowWho]

Again, I can only speak for myself. I prefer to use my

- right hand to grab my left wrist.
- left arm to break my wrist grip,
- right hand to grab my left elbow,
- left arm to break my elbow grip again,
- ...

Without training partner doesn't mean that solo form training is the only thing that you can do.

[hskwarrior]

again, i can only speak for myself. I prefer to use my

- right hand to grab my left wrist.
- left arm to break my wrist grip,
- right hand to grab my left elbow,
- left arm to break my elbow grip again,
- ...

Without training partner doesn't mean that solo form training is the only thing that you can do.

congratulations. You own your gung fu. :d

[Jimbo]

Among some nowadays, there is an "all or nothing" way of thinking. There are different ways to train. "Hitting air" and striking a bag use the muscles in a different way. And though it's more realistic, hitting a bag is not exactly like hitting a person, either. Some people who only hit or kick air will have great difficulty in striking actual objects, especially something heavy and solid, and with distancing/timing, etc. And some people who only strike solid objects can hurt themselves or go more off-balanced/open if their strike or kick misses.

Obviously, boxers and MT fighters practice hitting air, in shadow boxing. It isn't their main focus of training, maybe not even that big a part, but it IS a part of it. If they or their trainers thought it was a total waste of time, they wouldn't do it at all.

Every training method has its advantages and its drawbacks. Some methods work for some, and not for others. Some are more inherently practical or "results-building" than others, but who's to say that someone else can't benefit from something just because we might not like it or disagree with it?

[PalmStriker]

if you're training on your own you're not really training. Anyone who doesn't have a partner would be better off just doing physical conditioning work.
:) Which is a load of crap. A black bear can shatter an iron pot with a palm-swipe, a leopard can crack the skull of an antelope with a palm-swipe (while on the run). A fresh water shrimp can punch a shellfish with the ballistic impact of a 22 bullet (muzzle), all without the help of a sparring partner and for survival. Intent is everything. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HjZ6hxRxKc

[bawang]

:) Which is a load of crap. A black bear can shatter an iron pot with a palm-swipe, a leopard can crack the skull of an antelope with a palm-swipe (while on the run). A fresh water shrimp can punch a shellfish with the ballistic impact of a 22 bullet (muzzle), all without the help of a sparring partner and for survival. Intent is everything.



predators spar all the time and fight for real every single day

[PalmStriker]

predators spar all the time and fight for real every single day
:D And for every meal. Did you fight for your one-dogmeal of the day so you will have the energy to fight for your next meal?

[-N-]

After waiting for that guy for 20 minutes in the park, he didn't show up. My partner training suggestion must turn him off. :(

He was reenacting the fight between Miyamoto Musashi and Kojiro Sasaki.

You didn't wait long enough :)

[ginosifu]

I am the same way with Tai-Chi people. They say they're doing it for health, chi-gung, etc, but they don't practice combat application. Not that I'm all about ch'i-gung and ch'i-bawlz, n'such but...

In TCM, and in TCMA, yi leads ch'i. Your intent leads your energy. No intent, energy stagnates.
If you know the applications, when you practice the solo form, you are still visualizing, feeling, the application, hence, you are moving ch'i.
Just doing the form, is a step above bedsores.

Well, as much as I try to teach this in my Tai-Chi classes, people don't stay.
Sadly, they don't want it. They just want to do the slow wave their arms movements and learn the fan set....

Everyone wants to learn the fan set!
No, seriously. That's what they want. The lady teaching at the library has a separate fan set class, and it's packed.
Calvin Chin has a separate class, and it's packed.

gonna have to buy me a fan..

I gave up on teaching the martial side of Tai Chi as well. All I teach now is a bit of Chi Gung and the form. I have a fan form too and the older ladies all want to learn that.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

if you're training on your own you're not really training. Anyone who doesn't have a partner IS just doing physical conditioning work.

Fixed it for you.

[MightyB]

I'll elaborate. Anything you do on your own is nothing more than an attempt to improve some aspect that you want to use against an opponent. But only in use against someone can you achieve mastery.

Tai Chi and Judo both believe in the power of yielding - no amount of solo training can teach you how to be an empty jacket against an opponent - only by constantly working out against an opponent with the intent of learning how to yield can you learn how to yield fully. You'll never achieve mastery of a combination by shadow boxing.

[MightyB]

This is a dumb argument. The goal of every martial artist on this board should be to be able to train against and with a competent martial artist until the day both of you can no longer stand... then you wrestle. Solo training is intrinsic and can help and has benefits, but mastery requires a competent partner to fight and train with.

[MightyB]

In Mantis there are people who know all the forms, all the sets, all the theories, all the lingo... yet they can't do a diu sau against a live opponent in free sparring. There are people who only know two or three forms, could care less about the philosophical jargon and can and will hit you with ou lou choi, they can and will tie you up with a proper tiu sau, and they can and will simultaneously punch you face while kicking you in the nuts. Which one of the above has achieved mastery?

[ShaolinDan]

This kind of discussion always gets a little ridiculous here. Of course TCMA should be about combat, but it's not like if it's about combat it can't be about other things as well. Ultimately I think the real reason most of us practice TCMA (or any MA) is because we enjoy it.

[YouKnowWho]

Ultimately I think the real reason most of us practice TCMA (or any MA) is because we enjoy it.
Where can you find your "fun" by training "solo"?

[ShaolinDan]

Where can you find your "fun" by training "solo"?

Granted solo practice isn't the same kind of fun that sparring is, but neither is a lot of partner practice. It still makes me feel good to do it though--like going for a run. Also (I guess it's the LARPER in me), I do find solo weapons practice to be truly fun.

My intended point was really that it's a false dichotomy. If someone does solo practice that doesn't mean they don't do partner practice, and if someone trains kung fu for reasons besides combat that doesn't mean that they don't train it for combat also.

[ultimatekungfu]

I gave up on teaching the martial side of Tai Chi as well. All I teach now is a bit of Chi Gung and the form. I have a fan form too and the older ladies all want to learn that.

ginosifu

Same here. So frustrating. Its a fighting style, if you have no MA aspect you have what flowing motions. Why take a class then just move around however you want and wave your hands around slowly. I don't even do Tai Chi classes anymore only private sessions, if people don't want Martial Arts parts, at least push hands I don't really want to take them.

[xinyidizi]

My intended point was really that it's a false dichotomy. If someone does solo practice that doesn't mean they don't do partner practice, and if someone trains kung fu for reasons besides combat that doesn't mean that they don't train it for combat also.

This is a very simple and reasonable opinion but I don't understand why this topic comes up over and over. I personally enjoy solo practice a lot because that's where many specific problems can be solved and I can do it whenever I want as I don't have access to a training partner everyday. I also do a lot of yansheng qigong because I like to be healthy and that's the foundation of martial neigong. These things are all related to each other and how much we focus on each of them is really a personal choice as long as we know the main purpose is combat.

[ginosifu]

Same here. So frustrating. Its a fighting style, if you have no MA aspect you have what flowing motions. Why take a class then just move around however you want and wave your hands around slowly. I don't even do Tai Chi classes anymore only private sessions, if people don't want Martial Arts parts, at least push hands I don't really want to take them.

Most modern people choose Tai Chi because they heard somewhere that it is healthy and they will learn a beautiful Asian art form. No lay person comes to Tai Chi class with the idea that they will do any fighting or martial aspect of it.

It is sad but this is what the American view of Tai Chi is.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

I don't understand why this topic comes up over and over.

Because "combat" is for others and "healh" is for oneself. Sometime even the training are difference. If you train

- combat for health, you will hurt yourself.
- health for combat, it won't work.

For example, when you punch into the thin air, if you pretend that you are punching at your opponent, you may hurt your elbow joint in the long run. If you want to use TCMA for health, you will need to modify your training differently.

[xinyidizi]

Taiji for health is where the money is. Some people have got so rich by focusing on teaching it as a health exercise. Many of the hippies who want to learn it would even mind if you show them fajin and the applications as they view it just as a spiritual complementary course after their whatever yoga class. Personally I don't think I can resist the cash when I start teaching.

[xinyidizi]

Because "combat" is for others and "healh" is for oneself. Sometime even the training are difference. If you train

- combat for health, you will hurt yourself.
- health for combat, it won't work.

For example, when you punch into the thin air, if you pretend that you are punching at your opponent, you may hurt your elbow joint in the long run. If you want to use TCMA for health, you will need to modify your training differently.

So what's wrong with doing both?

Yin and Yang are the opposite of each other but they can both help each other as well. When I practice for health my breathing and my focus are different but it certainly helps my combat. The key is to do them both separately and they will automatically help each other.

[YouKnowWho]

So what's wrong with doing both?
You may look at this only from a striker point of view but not from a grappler point of view. How will you train your "hip throw" or "ground game arm bar" for health?

When you train "solo", you are not training "combat". Because in "solo" training, there are no such thing as

- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle.

[xinyidizi]

You may look at this only from a striker point of view but not from a grappler point of view. How will you train your "hip throw" or "ground game arm bar" for health?

When you train "solo", you are not training "combat". Because in "solo" training, there are no such thing as

- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle.

Health is not the same as the solo form as the solo form can be practiced for both. For combat the solo form is where we can prepare the body in terms of flexibility,balance, speed and to some extent power. It's certainly not enough for combat and is just a part of the preparation.

[Syn7]

There are more efficient and less damaging ways to strengthen the body. If you learn MA's, it should be for combat. Anything else you get from your training is secondary.

[ShaolinDan]

One of the most important aspects of a fitness plan is that it isn't boring. If you get bored then you won't stick with it. MA keeps it interesting.

Staying healthy is part of being prepared for combat.

[Bacon]

There are more efficient and less damaging ways to strengthen the body. If you learn MA's, it should be for combat. Anything else you get from your training is secondary.

Believe me i agree. But any kind of wrestling whether judo, catch, Greco, bjj, they are a good workout in and of themselves. But again if you're in a martial arts class just for fitness...leave.

[Syn7]

I think if I didn't train MAs I would swim more. In fact I wanna swim more anyways. It just feels so low impact. I always feel good after laps. Mos def a better aerobic exercise than running. And you can create a pretty kick @ss anaerobic program in the pool too. I run way more than I swim. I wish I had my own pool. It's hard for me to tell exactly what gives me what sometimes because most my hobbies physical. Am I getting stronger from practicing Air Flares or is it the weights? Both I'm sure, but it's hard to narrow it down sometimes. I just know that swimming feels awesome. I imagine it's pretty good on the lungs too. Something I need work on from all that pot as a youth.

I always get a great workout sub grappling. Always good on the core and it gives that retard farmboy strength that comes in handy in a pinch.

[RenDaHai]

One of the most important aspects of a fitness plan is that it isn't boring. If you get bored then you won't stick with it. MA keeps it interesting.


Exactly.

This Sums up the argument for people who do it for fitness. There are more efficient ways of getting fitter, off course. There are more efficient ways at doing everything. But we do the ones we can stand to do. Fitness would be a main goal but most people who start MA relise beforehand there will be many aspects to enjoy with it.

Taiji in a park may be less efficient for fitness than many other things. But it trains the stamina, flexibility, co-ordination in a way other things don't.

It trains to focus on breathing (we breath all the time but think about it seldom).
It forces the mind to wonder about the mystical element (be it existent or not, we still wonder and I think that is good for a healthy mind).
There is a social aspect, people like to be in groups and a MA group will accept people who don't always fit well in other groups (we all have wierdos in our class but accept them anyway).
It has a learning curve. Sure you get better at jogging, but you don't notice it like getting better at Taiji, thats obvious. And getting better at something is addictive.
These are some things that make it a more enjoyable fitness pursuit than going to the gym. Not to mention all the other aspects MA have that people who start for health will later discover. I find Taiji boring, but when I am old I am certain I will prefer Taiji to just going to the gym, jogging on the treadmill then doing a few machines.

[bawang]

Exactly.

This Sums up the argument for people who do it for fitness. There are more efficient ways of getting fitter, off course. There are more efficient ways at doing everything. But we do the ones we can stand to do. Fitness would be a main goal but most people who start MA relise beforehand there will be many aspects to enjoy with it.



tahts right.

"when im busy i farm, when im bored i make forms" tai chi founder chen wangting

forms have an aspect of fun and enjoyment to them, otherwise we wouldnt want to do them.

[YouKnowWho]

I find Taiji boring, but when I am old I am certain I will prefer Taiji to just going to the gym, jogging on the treadmill then doing a few machines.

I feel exactly the opposite. I started my Taiji when I was 7. Now I have reached my medicare age. I still prefer to go to gym than to work on my Taiji and strike into the thin air. My teacher did say that I would appreciate Taiji when I get older. Maybe I'm still not old enough yet.

[Lebaufist]

This subject seems a bit narrow in scope.

[Syn7]

I feel exactly the opposite. I started my Taiji when I was 7. Now I have reached my medicare age. I still prefer to go to gym than to work on my Taiji and strike into the thin air. My teacher did say that I would appreciate Taiji when I get older. Maybe I'm still not old enough yet.

When you CANNOT move fast, you will appreciate slower exercise alot more. I'm sure. But as long as you have the ability to move fast and strong, do so. By all means. As long as you aren't hurting yourself, rocksteady!

[4 Dragons]

Are you saying there is not more to TCMA than fighting? I'm sure there are plenty of Kung Fu styles that don't really teach anything more than fighting but traditional Shaolin is far more than just fighting. Of course I can get good exercise outside of TCMA but I doubt better. Sure Yoga is good but it will never put you in shape like Kung Fu. Swimming is great too but will never get you into Kung Fu shape. Real Kung Fu will train the body, mind and spirit to a degree that nothing else can. My question to you is... If you only want fighting why do you train Kung Fu? Fighting is pretty simple.

[David Jamieson]

Are you saying there is not more to TCMA than fighting? I'm sure there are plenty of Kung Fu styles that don't really teach anything more than fighting but traditional Shaolin is far more than just fighting. Of course I can get good exercise outside of TCMA but I doubt better. Sure Yoga is good but it will never put you in shape like Kung Fu. Swimming is great too but will never get you into Kung Fu shape. Real Kung Fu will train the body, mind and spirit to a degree that nothing else can. My question to you is... If you only want fighting why do you train Kung Fu? Fighting is pretty simple.

While I am a stalwart practitioner of traditional Kung fu, I don't actually agree with your assessment.
It is certainly not an accurate reflection of all the people I know who practice Kung Fu. They are all different shapes and sizes and different levels of fitness. Some of the less fit ones can fight like hell and some of the real fit ones can't fight worth beans and so on and so forth.

Also, persistent practice of Yoga or swimming or any other regimen is an equally valid and useful way to get in shape and can in fact be incorporated into one's overall kung fu.

Kung Fu is more than fighting, but I wouldn't say it's above all other forms of working out or that it is a superior work out to be had in TCMA. that simply isn't true and I've been practicing for literally decades. Still trying to get my own Kung Fu at a level I deem acceptable. So far...well, getting there. :-)

PS (I don't actually expect to ever know all there is about kung fu and fully anticipate my death before I do. :-) )

[Bacon]

Are you saying there is not more to TCMA than fighting?
I'm saying that anything it teaches is in the service of learning how to fight. Fitness is an aid to the primary goal of combat.


Of course I can get good exercise outside of TCMA but I doubt better.
Hmm I'd wager that most strongmen, gymnasts, boxers, wrestlers, and amateur athletes are in better shape than 90% of the Kung fu folks out there including you and me.


Sure Yoga is good but it will never put you in shape like Kung Fu.

When done with progressive levels of resistance it will.


Swimming is great too but will never get you into Kung Fu shape.
Have you ever seen Olympic swimmers? Clearly not.


Real Kung Fu will train the body, mind and spirit to a degree that nothing else can.
Presupposing the existence of a spirit and that most, if any, Kung fu teachers have an in depth knowledge of psychology and behaviour modification (they don't).


My question to you is... If you only want fighting why do you train Kung Fu?
Because it is a combative method.


Fighting is pretty simple.

Then I take it you've won every fighting championship there is since fighting is so simple eh? Care to post up pictures of you after winning the Mundials, abu dhabi, and your time with the ufc, strikeforce, and pride belt then? Bollocks. The rest of your post proclaims your ignorance on the subject of fitness and this proclaims the highest level of ignorance possible on the subject of combat.

[bawang]

traditional Shaolin is far more than just fighting.

traditinal shaolin is only about fighting.


if real traditional shaolin survived today we would have shaolin monks with assault rifles and navy seal training.

[Syn7]

Bawang took the words right out of my mouth.

[YouKnowWho]

If you only want fighting why do you train Kung Fu? Fighting is pretty simple.
You must be a striker, a punch to the face is very simple but TCMA is much more than just that. The complicate part of the TCMA is the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strikes. When you start a technique on a paper, by looking at defense and counters you may get into more than 40 different moves involved on the same paper. A single move can be just the root, it can grow into a big tree. "Simple" is definitely not the proper term to be used in TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fighting IS very simple John, everyone can do it.
Now, fighting WELL, that is a different story my friend, as we know.
I've realized that those that downplay the significance of fighting in MA tend to be the ones that have never fought anyone of decent caliber.

I recall the first time I fought someone that shut down everything I threw at him, it was a lesson in MARTIAL arts that I have never forgotten and did more for me as a MA then pretty much any other single event.

[Jimbo]

The first CMA teacher I ever had in Taiwan, pretty much completely de-emphasized the fighting aspect. I spent a period of time in his school because at the time I didn't know any better, and thought 'the good stuff' would eventually be taught...this after years of fight-oriented karate, as well as judo experience. When I left him and found a teacher who did emphasize the fighting aspect, the difference was immense. I progressed faster in the first three months with him than I did in three years with the other teacher. And I actually began to understand, through experience, what I was doing. Years later, after I returned Stateside and joined a combat-oriented CLF school, I was able to adapt easily because of the experience of my second northern-style teacher. There is a WORLD of difference between KF schools that emphasize and don't emphasize the combative aspect.

To add another twist, even my forms improved tremendously when in the schools that emphasized combat. Yes, combative focus even aids in that aspect of it.

Now I train because I love it, but I feel I've earned that. IMO, you must go through years of training emphasizing the application of your art in sparring against all types, drilling, etc. Otherwise, all the philosophy, mottos, 'way of life', etc., really don't mean a whole lot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now I train because I love it, but I feel I've earned that. IMO, you must go through years of training emphasizing the application of your art in sparring against all types, drilling, etc. Otherwise, all the philosophy, mottos, 'way of life', etc., really don't mean a whole lot.

Jimbo has ***** slapped the correct, kicked it in the prostate AND anally punished it into submission.

[IronWeasel]

Jimbo has ***** slapped the correct, kicked it in the prostate AND anally punished it into submission.



I had to clench up when I read this....:eek:

But I agree with it.

[4 Dragons]

I'm saying that anything it teaches is in the service of learning how to fight. Fitness is an aid to the primary goal of combat.


Hmm I'd wager that most strongmen, gymnasts, boxers, wrestlers, and amateur athletes are in better shape than 90% of the Kung fu folks out there including you and me.


When done with progressive levels of resistance it will.


Have you ever seen Olympic swimmers? Clearly not.


Presupposing the existence of a spirit and that most, if any, Kung fu teachers have an in depth knowledge of psychology and behaviour modification (they don't).


Because it is a combative method.



Then I take it you've won every fighting championship there is since fighting is so simple eh? Care to post up pictures of you after winning the Mundials, abu dhabi, and your time with the ufc, strikeforce, and pride belt then? Bollocks. The rest of your post proclaims your ignorance on the subject of fitness and this proclaims the highest level of ignorance possible on the subject of combat.

I have never fought in the ring and was does that have to do with real fighting? I have been in plenty of real fights and I have always won. The fact that I am still alive proves that I can fight as good as I need to. How many of you have had a gun on your forehead or got jumped by 25 people with the intent of killing you? I'm going to guess zero. Plus my having been in max security and doing anti submarine warfare while in the Navy and having practiced Kung Fu since 1966 gives me a different perspective than you.There is a huge difference between ring rules and the street.I doubt a Kung Fu master will ever attack me. Maybe I should have said fighting was easy for me and obviously not for you.

Shaolin started as a health practice to augment their mediation, fighting came out of that.

Swimmers are in great shape but what can they do with it? Can they use their strength from any position? Same for yoga. The answer is no.

I don't need to have a degree in psychology to understand my spirit or how to train it with Kung Fu. If you do not it is because you don't practice enough to know any better.

I didn't attack you yet you feel the need to attack me. You got too much fat bacon.

I would like to say that I do not think it is the best idea to practice Kung Fu only as a health practice and that you will never get the full health benefits unless you practice in a martial manner. I still say there is plenty more to Kung Fu than just a martial art.

One last thing and then say what you want I'm not listening, LOL!

"Hmm I'd wager that most strongmen, gymnasts, boxers, wrestlers, and amateur athletes are in better shape than 90% of the Kung fu folks out there including you and me."

No doubt. What about the other 10%? Before my 11 surgeries and heart attack I would have taken that bet.

[YouKnowWho]

Fighting IS very simple John, everyone can do it.
Now, fighting WELL, that is a different story my friend, as we know.
If you want to win by points that you hit your opponent 100 times while your opponent only hit you 99 time, that doesn't take much training at all.

If you can take your opponent down within 3 second while your opponent hasn't even laid a finger on you, that will require many years of hard training.

[Raipizo]

If you can take your opponent down within 3 second while your opponent has even laid a finger on you, that will require many years of hard training.

Exactly there are different ways of training for different types of fighting, point sparring, grappling, mma, street fighting or practical fighting. It all depends what you like to do.

[-N-]

If you can take your opponent down within 3 second while your opponent has even laid a finger on you, that will require many years of hard training.

That is a good way to train.

I have had my students work on that quite a bit in an exercise that I called "3 second death match". It's more like 1.5 seconds though, because I count it off pretty quickly.

Btw, one of my students went on to Air Force Academy. I heard back from him that kung fu training was harder than basic training.

[-N-]

That is a good way to train.

I have had my students work on that quite a bit in an exercise that I called "3 second death match". It's more like 1.5 seconds though, because I count it off pretty quickly.

Btw, one of my students went on to Air Force Academy. I heard back from him that kung fu training was harder than basic training.

Kung fu helped him with spirit, attitude, focus, tenaciousness, committment, discipline etc.

One of his early experiences in basic... being the smallest cadet, he was partnered with the biggest cadet for their pugil stick training. First match of the day, he went right in and took out his opponent, to everyone's surprise.

[YouKnowWho]

That is a good way to train.

I have had my students work on that quite a bit in an exercise that I called "3 second death match". It's more like 1.5 seconds though, because I count it off pretty quickly.

Btw, one of my students went on to Air Force Academy. I heard back from him that kung fu training was harder than basic training.

It needs a lot of skills to achieve this.

1. Fast and excellent set up.
2. Lighting speed footwork.
3. Solid throwing skill.
4. ...

You just have to train in "lighting" speed in order to reach to this kind of level. When I suggested this "Train in lighting speed" method in another forum, my suggestion had upset many "slow speed training" internal guys. To me, if you want to train "comat", you have to train in "lighting" speed. What's lighting speed? You feel that your eyeballs are going to fly out of your eye sockets.

[-N-]

To me, if you want to train "comat", you have to train in "lighting" speed. What's lighting speed? You feel that your eyeballs are going to fly out of your eye sockets.

Yep.

My teacher used to say "faster than you can see your own self". Also, faster than you can think.

There is physical and also mental. Weak spirit makes people slow as much as poor physical technique.

[-N-]

When I suggested this "Train in lighting speed" method in another forum, my suggestion had upset many "slow training" interna guys.

Even if you want to "yield" the other guy to death, you still have to train responding to the other guy's lightning speed.

Unless you both stand there waiting for the other guy to go first.

Then there is no fight.

But you both may die of boredom.

[David Jamieson]

The hand is faster than the eye. There is no doubt. NO kung fu is total armor.

[Lucas]

The hand is faster than the eye. There is no doubt. NO kung fu is total armor.

what if its 'total armor' style kungfu?

[David Jamieson]

what if its 'total armor' style kungfu?

Then it's a lie and would be made fun of.

[MightyB]

Screaming Ninja is a terrible movie yet it comes in almost every boxed set of martial arts movie DVDs.

[MightyB]

If wookies did kung fu, they'd have a form dedicated to pulling off their opponent's limbs.

[MightyB]

If wookies did kung fu, they'd have a form dedicated to pulling off their opponent's limbs.

Gene could write a book about it. :)